Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #40

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - David Robinson
#23 - Dwyane Wade
#24 - Elgin Baylor
#25 - Scottie Pippen
#26 - Giannis Antetokounmpo
#27 - John Havlicek
#28 - Isiah Thomas
#29 - Bob Pettit
#30 - Chris Paul
#31 - Kawhi Leonard
#32 - Rick Barry
#33 - James Harden
#34 - Patrick Ewing
#35 - Bob Cousy
#36 - John Stockton
#37 - Jason Kidd
#38 - Steve Nash
#39 - Willis Reed
#40 - VOTING NOW

Top 50 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Allen Iverson - 8 (gonzaldo, Nike D'Antoni, Phoenix, francesco totti, LBJ, Lebron_James, ClipperRevival, Bankaii)
Russell Westbrook - 3 (OOO, imdaman99, DevBooker'sMask)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Round Mound)
Clyde Drexler - 1 (Reggie43)

[dankok8]

Give me Elvin Hayes.

[SouBeachTalents]

Looks like Iverson's gonna win this one, but I think it's time guys like Drexler, Hayes & Payton start getting votes.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I vote Manu Ginobili

His 2005 playoff run was better then any 2000-2002 Kobe run, better then any Nash playoff run and better then any Stockton playoff run. So i think he holds his own in this range. Robbed from the top 75 list as well.

[L.Kizzle]

Give me Elvin Hayes.
Elvin Hayes over Wes Unseld? Hayes may have better numbers but who made that team (Bullets) into what it was in the 70s?

[dankok8]

Elvin Hayes over Wes Unseld? Hayes may have better numbers but who made that team (Bullets) into what it was in the 70s?

Hayes finished higher in MVP voting than Unseld every year they played together with the Bullets and was robbed of the 1978 Finals MVP.

[fsvr54]

Clyde Frazier

[1987_Lakers]

Walt Frazier

[ELITEpower23]

Russell Westbrook

Scoring Title
Assist Title
MVP
Triple Double Title

[outofstomach]

Russell Westbrook

Scoring Title
Assist Title
MVP
Triple Double Title$tats :lol **** out of here

[RRR3]

Frazier.

[L.Kizzle]

Hayes finished higher in MVP voting than Unseld every year they played together with the Bullets and was robbed of the 1978 Finals MVP.
No lies said here.

[TheCorporation]

Walt Frazier

[SouBeachTalents]

I'll vote Frazier

[1987_Lakers]

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would vote McHale before Hayes.

Hayes' efficiency as a scorer was always below league average, I'm guessing alot of that had to do with his turnaround jumper which is overall a pretty low efficient shot and although a good scorer, he was never an elite one (unless you count his first 3 years where he played on a dogshit team). It is also well documented what a cancer he was as a teammate and a person, not really liked by the media, I assume that is a reason why he didn't win Finals MVP in '78.

With that said his resume is no doubt top 50, although for what it's worth realgm voted him #59.

[SouBeachTalents]

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would vote McHale before Hayes.

Hayes' efficiency as a scorer was always below league average, I'm guessing alot of that had to do with his turnaround jumper which is overall a pretty low efficient shot and although a good scorer, he was never an elite one (unless you count his first 3 years where he played on a dogshit team). It is also well documented what a cancer he was as a teammate and a person, not really liked by the media, I assume that is a reason why he didn't win Finals MVP in '78.

With that said his resume is no doubt top 50, although for what it's worth realgm voted him #59.
Realgm also voted our current vote leader 66th :lol

[colts19]

Walt Frazier, Thinking maybe it's time for a little love for the Red Head, Bill Walton should be coming up soon.

[RRR3]

Walt Frazier, Thinking maybe it's time for a little love for the Red Head, Bill Walton should be coming up soon.
He had 2 years as a superstar lol. And even in those years he missed a lot of games. He didn’t even last 3 games in the playoffs in one of those years.

[SouBeachTalents]

Walt Frazier, Thinking maybe it's time for a little love for the Red Head, Bill Walton should be coming up soon.
No way in hell should Walton make the top 50. He had an ATG peak but did not play nearly long enough to warrant a top 50 spot. It'd be an insult to guys who put in 7-10 years of star level play to include a guy, no matter how great he was, who's prime was so brief and injury filled.

[L.Kizzle]

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would vote McHale before Hayes.

Hayes' efficiency as a scorer was always below league average, I'm guessing alot of that had to do with his turnaround jumper which is overall a pretty low efficient shot and although a good scorer, he was never an elite one (unless you count his first 3 years where he played on a dogshit team). It is also well documented what a cancer he was as a teammate and a person, not really liked by the media, I assume that is a reason why he didn't win Finals MVP in '78.

With that said his resume is no doubt top 50, although for what it's worth realgm voted him #59.
One All NBA team in a career as a bench player. Not over Hayes tho.

[dankok8]

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would vote McHale before Hayes.

Hayes' efficiency as a scorer was always below league average, I'm guessing alot of that had to do with his turnaround jumper which is overall a pretty low efficient shot and although a good scorer, he was never an elite one (unless you count his first 3 years where he played on a dogshit team). It is also well documented what a cancer he was as a teammate and a person, not really liked by the media, I assume that is a reason why he didn't win Finals MVP in '78.

With that said his resume is no doubt top 50, although for what it's worth realgm voted him #59.

Hayes was still a 23/13 big man for his playoff career and and played very good defense on top of that. 13th in career points, 6th in rebounds, 3rd in double doubles. You have to also consider that his efficiency was only slightly below league average for the era at -1.6 rTS. And in his prime in the mid 70's he was considerably more efficient than league average.

Hayes had a reputation problem in Houston but he was a good teammate in Baltimore/Washington and was the best player on a team that made 3 finals and won a title.

[DevBooker'sMask]

Clyde Frazier for sure

[dankok8]

Iverson 8 Frazier 7 as the two frontrunners.

Between them I'll also go Frazier so it's 8-8.

[L.Kizzle]

Allen I for me.

[1987_Lakers]

Hayes was still a 23/13 big man for his playoff career and and played very good defense on top of that. 13th in career points, 6th in rebounds, 3rd in double doubles. You have to also consider that his efficiency was only slightly below league average for the era at -1.6 rTS. And in his prime in the mid 70's he was considerably more efficient than league average.

Hayes had a reputation problem in Houston but he was a good teammate in Baltimore/Washington and was the best player on a team that made 3 finals and won a title.

If you look deeper, Hayes' rebounding wasn't great. He played in an era where players missed alot of shots so rebounds were more available and he usually played around 40+ MPG which also inflated his numbers. In his prime he was at 16 TRB% , guys like Rodman, Walton, B. Wallace, Dwight, Moses, Mutombo etc were all above 20 TRB% in their primes. Hell, his teammate Unseld was a better rebounder than him. He was far from a great rebounder, just good. Don't let his all-time rebounding totals fool you.

[L.Kizzle]

If you look deeper, Hayes' rebounding wasn't great. He played in an era where players missed alot of shots so rebounds were more available and he usually played around 40+ MPG which also inflated his numbers. In his prime he was at 16 TRB% , guys like Rodman, Walton, B. Wallace, Dwight, Moses, Mutombo etc were all above 20 TRB% in their primes. Hell, his teammate Unseld was a better rebounder than him. He was far from a great rebounder, just good. Don't let his all-time rebounding totals fool you.
He led the league in rebounding twice so you can say was the best rebounding in the world for those 2 seasons. That alone says he's a great rebounder.

[1987_Lakers]

He led the league in rebounding twice so you can say was the best rebounding in the world for those 2 seasons. That alone says he's a great rebounder.

Yea, but look at his MPG the year he led the league in rebounds, 44.7 MPG & 44.5 MPG, that is heavy minutes. If you look at his overall TRB% from '71-'79 where he was in his prime, his TRB% is an underwhelming 16.4 TRB%, not bad, but not great. Advanced stats suggest Kareem, Cowens, Gilmore, healthy Walton, & even Unseld to be better overall rebounders.

[L.Kizzle]

Yea, but look at his MPG the year he led the league in rebounds, 44.7 MPG & 44.5 MPG, that is heavy minutes. If you look at his overall TRB% from '71-'79 where he was in his prime, his TRB% is an underwhelming 16.4 TRB%, not bad, but not great. Advanced stats suggest Kareem, Cowens, Unseld, Gilmore, healthy Walton, & even Unseld to be better overall rebounders.
40+ minutes a game was normal back then. Walton was the only one playing 36 minutes or less.

[1987_Lakers]

40+ minutes a game was normal back then. Walton was the only one playing 36 minutes or less.

Im sure 40+ was normal, but damn near 45 mpg like Hayes played in both those years? I doubt it, he also led the league in MPG the years he led the league in rebounds as well, at the end of the day Hayes' rebounding was never consistent to being great, maybe he had 2 years where he was elite, but for the most of his career he was just good so him being #6 in total rebounds ever is very misleading. The guys I listed showed consistency in being great rebounders year in and year out.

[Honor Boost]

Iverson 8 Frazier 7 as the two frontrunners.

Between them I'll also go Frazier so it's 8-8.

Had to select Frazier here also

[Round Mound]

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would vote McHale before Hayes.

Hayes' efficiency as a scorer was always below league average, I'm guessing alot of that had to do with his turnaround jumper which is overall a pretty low efficient shot and although a good scorer, he was never an elite one (unless you count his first 3 years where he played on a dogshit team). It is also well documented what a cancer he was as a teammate and a person, not really liked by the media, I assume that is a reason why he didn't win Finals MVP in '78.

With that said his resume is no doubt top 50, although for what it's worth realgm voted him #59.

I'm with your in relation to McHale. I think people should go watch the 86 finals and see how he outplayed a non injured Ralph Sampson (A 7'1 ft powerforward with insane athleticism relative to size). After the 87 injury in the play-offs against the Bulls he was never quite the same. But...in his prime he was the most skilled post player ever. No one had more post moves than McHale. On top of that he was a great defender taking the other teams most dangerous offenisve players. He was also a good foul shooter and shooter in general.

[Phoenix]

Iverson 9, Frazier 9

[L.Kizzle]

I'm with your in relation to McHale. I think people should go watch the 86 finals and see how he outplayed a non injured Ralph Sampson (A 7'1 ft powerforward with insane athleticism relative to size). After the 87 injury in the play-offs against the Bulls he was never quite the same. But...in his prime he was the most skilled post player ever. No one had more post moves than McHale. On top of that he was a great defender taking the other teams most dangerous offenisve players. He was also a good foul shooter and shooter in general.
Explain his one All-NBA team appearance for such a great player? And an elite PF never avg over 10 rebounds in a season as well.

[dankok8]

If you look deeper, Hayes' rebounding wasn't great. He played in an era where players missed alot of shots so rebounds were more available and he usually played around 40+ MPG which also inflated his numbers. In his prime he was at 16 TRB% , guys like Rodman, Walton, B. Wallace, Dwight, Moses, Mutombo etc were all above 20 TRB% in their primes. Hell, his teammate Unseld was a better rebounder than him. He was far from a great rebounder, just good. Don't let his all-time rebounding totals fool you.

I agree with you in a sense that he's not a top 6 rebounder of all time. Rebounds were inflated back then. That's why guys at the top have played in the 60's and 70's for the most part. Still Hayes was a very good rebounder who got two rebounding titles. 19.1 %TRB on that many minutes is actually quite impressive. Like I said was a 23/13 big man who played good defense and those don't exactly grow on trees and he had fantastic longevity to boot.

[Airupthere]

I'm going with AI

[Magic Is Magic]

Walt Frazier it is

[Phoenix]

Iverson and Frazier with 10 each...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The Question AKA The Answer

I own both shoes lol. The red and white questions were nice.

But yeah, AI had the longer prime and while he wasn't always efficient, dude was absolutely effective.

[gonzaldo]

this cult of efficiency is killing the game. somebody has to score buckets at the end

[Phoenix]

:basketball:basketball

[dankok8]

11-10 lead for AI

Vote!

[Thenameless]

Okay twist my arm. Walt "Clyde" Frazier. And I don't like the Knicks.

Here we have a Championship level floor general, and a top notch perimeter defender. And I prefer his sense of style a lot more than Iverson's punk a$$ b!tch bling bling garbage. Yes, Iverson would take him out one-on-one, but it's a team game and Frazier is just plain better for a team.

[Phoenix]

Iverson and Frazier 11 each

[dankok8]

Shall I make a poll to decide this one?

[RRR3]

Shall I make a poll to decide this one?
Sure why not

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

Walt Frazier - 11 (fsvr54, 1987_Lakers, RRR3, TheCorporation, SouBeachTalents, colts19, DevBooker'sMask, dankok8, Honor Boost, Magic is Magic, Thenameless)
Allen Iverson - 11 (gonzaldo, Nike D'Antoni, Phoenix, francesco totti, LBJ, Lebron_James, ClipperRevival, Bankaii, L. Kizzle, Airupthere, kuniva_dAMiGhTy)
Russell Westbrook - 3 (OOO, imdaman99, ELITEpower23)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Round Mound)
Clyde Drexler - 1 (Reggie43)

This one was a tie so we ran a poll for 24 hours. Frazier won the poll 13-11 and so he gets the #40 spot.