Ben Johnson ran 9.78 in 1988 - times haven't improved when we consider PED's

[3ba11]

So it's a lie that athletes have gotten better in the last 30 years - in another 30 years, athletes will still be ripping the rim off just like they do today and did 30 years ago - the only difference is better HD tv and stylish shorts that make guys look flashier/more athletic

If athletes improved materially every 30 years, then I guess everyone on earth will be dunking by 2040 - it doesn't work that way - athletes have barely progressed since the 60's, if at all - the only difference is gather-stepping and traveling (which allows more flamboyant moves) + HD tv + stylish shorts (no more panties like the 80's) = everyone saying today's athletes are more athletic (they aren't)

[PistonsFan#21]

So it's a lie that athletes have gotten better in the last 30 years - in another 30 years, athletes will still be ripping the rim off just like they do today and did 30 years ago - the only difference is better HD tv and stylish shorts that make guys look flashier/more athletic

If athletes improved materially every 30 years, then I guess everyone on earth will be dunking by 2040 - it doesn't work that way - athletes have barely progressed since the 60's, if at all - the only difference is gather-stepping and traveling (which allows more flamboyant moves) + HD tv + stylish shorts (no more panties like the 80's) = everyone saying today's athletes are more athletic (they aren't)

Name me any 6'2'' or 6'3'' NBA player from the 60's more athletic than prime Derrick Rose or prime Westbrook. 9.78 is a great time but it's still .20 seconds slower than the world record by Usain Bolt which is an eternity in a 100 meter dash.

[3ba11]

Name me any 6'2'' or 6'3'' NBA player from the 60's more athletic than prime Derrick Rose or prime Westbrook. 9.78 is a great time but it's still .20 seconds slower than the world record by Usain Bolt which is an eternity in a 100 meter dash.


Tons of guys were but the gather-step didn't exist or wasn't allowed back then

See this thread to educate yourself on how basketball works:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?360900-Navigation-Efficiency

[ELITEpower23]

Grocery baggers and auto mechanics made the all stars during MJ's era

PRICE WENT UP - ANGEL INVESTOR

[ralph_i_el]

The amount of guys who can run 10.0 has increase by a lot. You can't really argue against that. Top end might not have changed, but depth sure has.

[Kblaze8855]

Name me any 6'2'' or 6'3'' NBA player from the 60's more athletic than prime Derrick Rose or prime Westbrook. 9.78 is a great time but it's still .20 seconds slower than the world record by Usain Bolt which is an eternity in a 100 meter dash.


Two ways to look at that….

On one hand….guys like this existed:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BelatedConsiderateFawn-size_restricted.gif



You don’t know who that is. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t an amazing athlete. He’s Marvin Bagleys grandfather. Barely remembered nba player from the 60s. Athletes were there….but nobody cared. Crowds barely reacted to athletic plays before the late 70s. It was all just 2 points. Hell you got benched for a lot of plays a Rose or Westbrook would do. Especially flashy black guards. The Hawks had a guy called Cleo Hill who was deemed too flashy and it pissed off openly racist teammates who go him benched by going to the owner. Owner tells the coach bench him or you’re fired. Coach saw he was the future and refused. So what happened?

Owner fired him and installed Pettit(one who led the complaint) as player-coach.

If Rose existed in 1958 and tried to play like he did in 2010 he might well have been blackballed out of the league. There were literal Olympic gold medal high jumpers in the league scoring 7 points and you never heard his name or saw a highlight.

Highlights the way we imagine them simply were not encouraged or celebrated.

That said…the other side?


Even guys like the one above who clearly had amazing genetics to pass down through his family to modern NBA athletes would be more athletic given modern nutrition and training.

Take an equal human and give one 2021 nutrition, weight programs, and a life being coddled he’s simply gonna be more athletic and explosive. I knew a set of identical twin women. One was a stripper and one had kids and a family life. Guess which one was in better shape?

Equal doesn’t stay that way for long when you have different priorities and lifestyle.

The lifestyle, training, money and so on around modern players have them in near peak condition for years….on top of athletic exploits getting you fame instead of called an uppity colored(if you’re lucky) who gets benched for his greatness.



It’s not really a fair comparison either way.

[000]

Two ways to look at that….

On one hand….guys like this existed:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BelatedConsiderateFawn-size_restricted.gif



You don’t know who that is. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t an amazing athlete. He’s Marvin Bagleys grandfather. Barely remembered nba player from the 60s. Athletes were there….but nobody cared. Crowds barely reacted to athletic plays before the late 70s. It was all just 2 points. Hell you got benched for a lot of plays a Rose or Westbrook would do. Especially flashy black guards. The Hawks had a guy called Cleo Hill who was deemed too flashy and it pissed off openly racist teammates who go him benched by going to the owner. Owner tells the coach bench him or you’re fired. Coach saw he was the future and refused. So what happened?

Owner fired him and installed Pettit(one who led the complaint) as player-coach.

If Rose existed in 1958 and tried to play like he did in 2010 he might well have been blackballed out of the league. There were literal Olympic gold medal high jumpers in the league scoring 7 points and you never heard his name or saw a highlight.

Highlights the way we imagine them simply were not encouraged or celebrated.

That said…the other side?


Even guys like the one above who clearly had amazing genetics to pass down through his family to modern NBA athletes would be more athletic given modern nutrition and training.

Take an equal human and give one 2021 nutrition, weight programs, and a life being coddled he’s simply gonna be more athletic and explosive. I knew a set of identical twin women. One was a stripper and one had kids and a family life. Guess which one was in better shape?

Equal doesn’t stay that way for long when you have different priorities and lifestyle.

The lifestyle, training, money and so on around modern players have them in near peak condition for years….on top of athletic exploits getting you fame instead of called an uppity colored(if you’re lucky) who gets benched for his greatness.



It’s not really a fair comparison either way.

that gif is a travel. left his pivot foot before dribbling + 3 steps

[ShawkFactory]

Humans aren’t more athletic now. The talent pool has grown. There a more athletic people in the league now than there were

[3ba11]

The amount of guys who can run 10.0 has increase by a lot. You can't really argue against that. Top end might not have changed, but depth sure has.


you're talking about tenths or hundredths of a second - that doesn't equal guys ripping the rim off far more than before

and again, the miniscule increases you're talking about are far out-paced by the increase in training methods, nutrition and ped's

[PistonsFan#21]

Two ways to look at that….

On one hand….guys like this existed:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BelatedConsiderateFawn-size_restricted.gif



You don’t know who that is. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t an amazing athlete. He’s Marvin Bagleys grandfather. Barely remembered nba player from the 60s. Athletes were there….but nobody cared. Crowds barely reacted to athletic plays before the late 70s. It was all just 2 points. Hell you got benched for a lot of plays a Rose or Westbrook would do. Especially flashy black guards. The Hawks had a guy called Cleo Hill who was deemed too flashy and it pissed off openly racist teammates who go him benched by going to the owner. Owner tells the coach bench him or you’re fired. Coach saw he was the future and refused. So what happened?

Owner fired him and installed Pettit(one who led the complaint) as player-coach.

If Rose existed in 1958 and tried to play like he did in 2010 he might well have been blackballed out of the league. There were literal Olympic gold medal high jumpers in the league scoring 7 points and you never heard his name or saw a highlight.

Highlights the way we imagine them simply were not encouraged or celebrated.

That said…the other side?


Even guys like the one above who clearly had amazing genetics to pass down through his family to modern NBA athletes would be more athletic given modern nutrition and training.

Take an equal human and give one 2021 nutrition, weight programs, and a life being coddled he’s simply gonna be more athletic and explosive. I knew a set of identical twin women. One was a stripper and one had kids and a family life. Guess which one was in better shape?

Equal doesn’t stay that way for long when you have different priorities and lifestyle.

The lifestyle, training, money and so on around modern players have them in near peak condition for years….on top of athletic exploits getting you fame instead of called an uppity colored(if you’re lucky) who gets benched for his greatness.



It’s not really a fair comparison either way.

Wouldn't those reasons you just gave explain why the average guys are more athletic today than they were in the 60s? They basically have access to better training, better nutrition, more advanced scientific knowledge, etc. Those reasons are exactly why you see better athletes now on average, that doesn't mean you couldn't find some athletic freaks back in the 60s. Derrick Rose and Westbrook would have still been beasts back then, they just most likely would have more limitations and couldn't reach the same peak as they did in the current generation.

This is basically the same reason why there is some elite high school and college kids now that are faster than the average olympian from the 60s.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t know if better athlete is really the way to put it when I think about it. Sure guys run faster than Jesse Owens. They also aren’t running on cinder tracks, without starting blocks, and wearing these:



https://www.hostpic.org/images/2111070936340370.jpeg


And if the modern track, blocks, and Nike Vapors didn’t help I suspect they wouldn’t use them.

I don’t know what modern athletes do if they had water and no Gatorade, no pregame prep by world class trainers and people stretching them, and their unlimited supply of expensive shoes replaced by the cloth and cardboard shit old players played in. I also know only one arena from those days had an air conditioner(MSG) and I’ve seen modern super athletes cramp up and collapse without one for a single night.

Its genetically similar athletes in much better conditions to show it.

Do they also eat better and workout line maniacs in some cases?

Sure. But the baseline athletic ability is probably about the same. Zion can barely stay healthy in 2021. Put him in 1958 in some of those prison issue cloth shoes and see how many 40 inch leaps he has in him with 50s sports medicine and no traveling team doctors.

Be the same human…might not even last long enough to remember him.

Its a complicated issue really. Athletic ability vs actual athletic performance has a lot of factors. Go play all out in some chuck Taylor’s. Modern chuck taylors. Then imagine being a 6’7” super athlete in a 50s version.

Oscar Robertson used to wrap his feet in layered socks after coating them in Vaseline just to stand it. All that shit makes a difference.

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0

[eliteballer]

Google Jordan on the floor of the old Boston garden, it’s a wonder anyone could dribble on that thing compared to what they have now.

[Kblaze8855]

He’s got Vaseline, 2 socks, tape, and an elastic band just trying to keep his feet in one piece in those shoes:




https://youtu.be/AbdZmvwQD4A

[eliteballer]

Here’s the picture of Jordan im talking about zoom on the floor: https://sportal.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/mj-420.vresize.1200.630.high.17-1280x720.png

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0

This is what your looking for blaze.

[Kblaze8855]

Yea I’d actually never seen that.

That Owens could go from last place to second fastest to Bolt just off the surface changing is wild.

[eliteballer]

Here’s the picture of Jordan im talking about zoom on the floor: https://sportal.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/mj-420.vresize.1200.630.high.17-1280x720.png

Look at the floor, zoom in if your on mobile.

[PistonsFan#21]

Eliteballer and Kblaze correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like the point you guys are making is that athletes from the past had the potential to be just as athletic as athletes today given the right circumstances. But the reality is that they weren't given the same opportunity and therefore never reached their full potential. And I'm specifically talking about physical abilities, not the training equipment, shoes, courts or any of those external factors that can enhance the athletic performance even more.

Basically what I'm saying is if you took a time machine, put all the best athletes from the 50s against all the best athletes from the 2010s on the same court, with the same shoes and conditions the modern athletes would still end up superior because those factors wouldn't compensate for the decades of improvement in training, nutrition knowledge, film studies, etc. We are simply able to train the athletes since youth and make them reach their full potential which wasn't possible back then.

Would Jesse Owens be even faster now if he was to grow up in the 2000s? Absolutely. But that would be because he would have lived his life in the current age with the advanced training technology needed to reach his full potential and make him an even better athlete than he was in the 1930s. This wouldn't just happen if you gave him a brand new pair of shoes and a better running surface back then.

Now if we want to judge athletes on the potential they could have achieved instead of using the clear results that they produced it is a different conversation.

[Kblaze8855]

Problem is the results aren’t all produced by them. In the Owens example….

Would all modern athletes be slower with his equipment and track?

Yes. That’s a fact.

So how are their results simply a matter of what they produced?

Its a matter of their physical gifts and modern technology.

There is no way to level the playing field over time even after you account for advances in training. Perhaps in some sports. Track? Basketball?

Not really. Bigger difference in track but still….can’t throw out playing condition factors. That has nothing to do with your athletic capabilities.

[Marchesk]

that gif is a travel. left his pivot foot before dribbling + 3 steps

Gather Step

[Marchesk]

Would Jesse Owens be even faster now if he was to grow up in the 2000s? Absolutely. But that would be because he would have lived his life in the current age with the advanced training technology needed to reach his full potential and make him an even better athlete than he was in the 1930s. This wouldn't just happen if you gave him a brand new pair of shoes and a better running surface back then.

A time-travelled Jesse Owens would run a faster time than he did on a modern track with modern equipment and shoes. Maybe Bolt is still the fastest human ever on the track even if we did have everyone over the past century raised in the same era. He is a freakish outlier. But someone like Owens or Johnson might push him. The mile record is now 22 years old, and Mike Powel's long jump record is 30 years old.

The question we care about is how much does athletic difference between generations matter for judging the greatness of a player like Jordan or Wilt. I'm not sure it matters that much, because Larry Bird was an all-time great with plenty of superior athletes in the league during the 80s. It's skill and being able to help your team win that matters.

Bird did that better than Dominique or Chuck and plenty of other non-HOF super athletic players. And Bird's game would translate well to the league today at the 4 spot.