What was the biggest reason the Cavs lost a 2-1 lead in the 2010 ECSF?

[3ba11]

See the poll

[dankok8]

He couldn't the pictures of Delonte banging his mom out of his head or maybe elbow pain. No one will ever know...

[RRR3]

Kobe had a 41 TS% in the 2000 finals.

[3ba11]

Kobe had a 41 TS% in the 2000 finals.


Not as 1st option... Only Lebron has shot that poorly as 1st option (2007 Finals or 2008 ECSF)

And he lost with horrific efficiency under 40% - so Lebron lost due to poor efficiency and Kobe never did

[RRR3]

Not as 1st option... Only Lebron has shot that poorly as 1st option (2007 Finals or 2008 ECSF)

And he lost with horrific efficiency under 40% - so Lebron lost due to poor efficiency and Kobe never did
Kobe lost due to poor efficiency in the 2004 and 2008 finals. The other times he had Shaq and/or Gasol to rebound his bricks :cheers:



And LeBron never shot as bad as 41% TS. Few ever had. Kobe the GOAT brick artist :bowdown:

[000]

the real question is, how the hell do you quit with a 2-1 lead?

[3ba11]

Kobe lost due to poor efficiency in the 2004 and 2008 finals. The other times he had Shaq and/or Gasol to rebound his bricks :cheers:



And LeBron never shot as bad as 41% TS. Few ever had. Kobe the GOAT brick artist :bowdown:


Kobe never shot under 40% as 1st option and lost a series, so he never lost a series due to efficiency like Lebron did in the 08' ECSF or 07' Finals

33 on 50% beats the 07' Spurs like Kobe did in 08'

[RRR3]

Kobe never shot under 40% as 1st option and lost a series, so he never lost a series due to efficiency like Lebron did in the 08' ECSF or 07' Finals

33 on 50% beats the 07' Spurs like Kobe did in 08'
TS% is a much better indicator of efficiency than FG%. Only cavemen still use FG% to measure efficiency. Are you a caveman?

[3ba11]

TS% is a much better indicator of efficiency than FG%. Only cavemen still use FG% to measure efficiency. Are you a caveman?


Kobe was 2nd option in 2000

Looking at their series as 1st option, has Kobe's true shooting ever been as bad as Lebron's 2007 Finals or 2008 ECSF?

I doubt it..

Lebron lacks elite jumpshooting skill, so his high-scoring games are overly ball-dominant and therefore can't beat good teams... So he needs elite 1st options to play sidekick and match his scoring - his scoring is too low-caliber brand to carry the load on his own.. It's a massive hole and weakness that you won't hear about in the media because they lack a baseline understanding of the game they cover.

[ArbitraryWater]

celtics being the better team i guess

[3ba11]

celtics being the better team i guess


Celtics were massive underdogs

Cavs were the league favorite for the 2nd year in a row after adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league juggernaut

so no

[RRR3]

Kobe was 2nd option in 2000

Looking at their series as 1st option, has Kobe's true shooting ever been as bad as Lebron's 2007 Finals or 2008 ECSF?

I doubt it..

Lebron lacks elite jumpshooting skill, so his high-scoring games are overly ball-dominant and therefore can't beat good teams... So he needs elite 1st options to play sidekick and match his scoring - his scoring is too low-caliber brand to carry the load on his own.. It's a massive hole and weakness that you won't hear about in the media because they lack a baseline understanding of the game they cover.
Kobe was the first option on the 2004 Lakers (led them in scoring and shots attempted) and his efficiency was horrendous in the finals (45.6% TS). Yeeeeeowch!

[ImKobe]

Kobe had a 41 TS% in the 2000 finals.

Kobe got injured, what was Lebron's excuse? Delonte banging his momma?


Kobe was the first option on the 2004 Lakers (led them in scoring and shots attempted) and his efficiency was horrendous in the finals (45.6% TS). Yeeeeeowch!

Kobe was injured in '04 Playoffs as well, what was Lebron's excuse in 2010?

[RRR3]

Kobe got injured, what was Lebron's excuse? Delonte banging his momma?



Kobe was injured in '04 Playoffs as well, what was Lebron's excuse in 2010?
Kobe was always conveniently hurt when he played bad according to you mamba ***** goblins.

[ImKobe]

Kobe was always conveniently hurt when he played bad according to you mamba ***** goblins.

He had shoulder surgery in the off-season and re-injured it during the year.

https://www.upi.com/Sports_News/2004/03/06/Kobe-Bryant-out-with-shoulder-injury/32311078610865/


Bryant re-injured his shoulder in the first minute of Friday night's 99-91 victory over the Seattle SuperSonics. Defending a pick-and-roll play, Bryant's arm collided with the left arm of SuperSonics forward Reggie Evans. The six-time All-Star was taken to Centinela Medical Center for an MRI.

He had shoulder & knee surgery during the off-season & played hurt all year, which is why his numbers were down the entire year. He shot poorly in the RS and in all the 3 rounds prior to the Finals, so it's not like he was playing at his 01-03 level and suddenly choked in the Finals. If you had done your research (since you clearly weren't around in the early 2000s) you'd have already known that.

[SaintzFury13]

Kobe got injured, what was Lebron's excuse? Delonte banging his momma?



Kobe was injured in '04 Playoffs as well, what was Lebron's excuse in 2010?

LeBron had an elbow injury... you idiot. That's not an excuse.

[ImKobe]

LeBron had an elbow injury... you idiot. That's not an excuse.

He clearly quit in that series man.. please stop.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

7 of 26 from 3 point line

52 of 70 from free throw line

LeBron can't shoot. What else is new.

[RRR3]

He had shoulder surgery in the off-season and re-injured it during the year.

https://www.upi.com/Sports_News/2004/03/06/Kobe-Bryant-out-with-shoulder-injury/32311078610865/



He had shoulder & knee surgery during the off-season & played hurt all year, which is why his numbers were down the entire year. He shot poorly in the RS and in all the 3 rounds prior to the Finals, so it's not like he was playing at his 01-03 level and suddenly choked in the Finals. If you had done your research (since you clearly weren't around in the early 2000s) you'd have already known that.
Always an excuse for you to French kiss Kobe’s asshole. Should have been passing to Shaq if he was hurt instead of chucking up so many bricks.

[RRR3]

Sob sob sob…it’s different when it’s LeBron then it doesn’t count. I devoted my life to Kobe and LeBron surpassing him broke me :cry:
:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

One of the few series early in his career you could legitimately point to LeBron for his team losing. He was very bad those last 3 games. But let's not act like similar dips in play didn't happen to Jordan as well.

1988 RS: 35/6/6 60%TS
ECSF G 1-2: 33/11/4 62%TS
ECSF G 3-5: 24/7/5 50%TS

1989 RS: 33/8/8 61%TS
ECF G 1-3: 35/7/4 57%TS
ECF G 4-6: 24/4/9 55%TS

The '89 series numbers don't even do it justice. 23 points on 5/15 in a 6 point loss in Game 4, the infamous Game 5 where he took 8 shots in a 9 point loss, then concluding the series with 8 turnovers and shooting 5/12 from the FT line in a 9 point loss in Game 6.

[SouBeachTalents]

Now let's look at some of your real favorite players stretches of playoff games.

Games 3-5 2004 Finals: 18/2/4 on 42%TS. Lost 3 straight games as the heavy favorite

Games 4-6 2008 Finals: 21/5/5 on 46%TS. Included in these are blowing a 24 point lead at home and losing by 40 points in the clincher

Games 2-4 2011 WCSF: 19/2/3 on 49%TS. Lost 3 straight games as the heavy favorite, including a 36 point blowout in Game 4.

[RRR3]

Now let's look at some of your real favorite players stretches of playoff games.

Games 3-5 2004 Finals: 18/2/4 on 42%TS. Lost 3 straight games as the heavy favorite

Games 4-6 2008 Finals: 21/5/5 on 46%TS. Included in these are blowing a 24 point lead at home and losing by 40 points in the clincher

Games 2-4 2011 WCSF: 19/2/3 on 49%TS. Lost 3 straight games as the heavy favorite, including a 36 point blowout in Game 4.
Kobe was an absolute disaster in big games my god. Most bailed out superstar ever.

[3ba11]

One of the few series early in his career you could legitimately point to LeBron for his team losing. He was very bad those last 3 games. But let's not act like similar dips in play didn't happen to Jordan as well.

1988 RS: 35/6/6 60%TS
ECSF G 1-2: 33/11/4 62%TS
ECSF G 3-5: 24/7/5 50%TS

1989 RS: 33/8/8 61%TS
ECF G 1-3: 35/7/4 57%TS
ECF G 4-6: 24/4/9 55%TS

The '89 series numbers don't even do it justice. 23 points on 5/15 in a 6 point loss in Game 4, the infamous Game 5 where he took 8 shots in a 9 point loss, then concluding the series with 8 turnovers and shooting 5/12 from the FT line in a 9 point loss in Game 6.


But those bolded numbers above are still much better than Lebron's 21 on 34% to lose the 2010 ECSF, or 17 ppg to lose a lead in the 2011 Finals.

And Lebron had the league favorite where Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win juggernaut, while Jordan had lottery underdogs with bed-wetting rookies that couldn't even get double-digits scoring.. Lebron lost as the heavy favorite, again.. and then again in 2011.

[RRR3]

But those bolded numbers above are still much better than Lebron's 21 on 34% to lose the 2010 ECSF.

And Lebron had the league favorite where Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win juggernaut, while Jordan had lottery underdogs with bed-wetting rookies that couldn't even get double-digits scoring.
Stop running back to your Jordan pacifier and man up and face Kobe’s dreadful performances. Why are you so scared to admit Kobe is your favorite? Is it cause you know he doesn’t measure up to LeBron? :yaohappy:

[ImKobe]

Always an excuse for you to French kiss Kobe’s asshole. Should have been passing to Shaq if he was hurt instead of chucking up so many bricks.

I have facts to back up my claims. He played poorly the entire season due to recovering from two major surgeries and he re-injured his shoulder a month before the POs. He shot 39%FG in April in the RS and 42% in the 1st 3 rounds of the POs. His Finals efficiency was on par with his play in the last 2 months leading up to it.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe got injured, what was Lebron's excuse? Delonte banging his momma?



Kobe was injured in '04 Playoffs as well, what was Lebron's excuse in 2010?

If Kobe was injured, why take a combined 47fga in games 5 and 6? He only made 12 of them.

[SouBeachTalents]

But those bolded numbers above are still much better than Lebron's 21 on 34% to lose the 2010 ECSF, or Lebron's 17 ppg to lose a lead in the 2011 Finals.

And Lebron had the league favorite where Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win juggernaut, while Jordan had lottery underdogs with bed-wetting rookies that couldn't even get double-digits scoring.
You can deflect and say LeBron's are worse, but those are still massive dropoffs in both production and efficiency.

[RRR3]

I have facts to back up my claims. He played poorly the entire season due to recovering from two major surgeries and he re-injured his shoulder a month before the POs. He shot 39%FG in April in the RS and 42% in the 1st 3 rounds of the POs. His Finals efficiency was on par with his play in the last 2 months leading up to it.
So he was too stupid to realize he was ineffective and pass to Shaq?

[RRR3]

You can deflect and say LeBron's are worse, but those are still massive dropoffs in both production and efficiency.
Don’t let him make it about Jordan. Keep it on Kobe he has no idea how to win that argument :oldlol:

[3ba11]

You can deflect and say LeBron's are worse, but those are still massive dropoffs in both production and efficiency.


It isn't a deflection - Jordan dropped off for sure, but he didn't drop off as much despite having greater forces pulling him down (underdog status and literally disappearing rookie sidekicks - pippen didn't play a lot of those games down the stretch, or had 2 points)

So imagine if Jordan had dropped off to Lebron's lower level as the league favorite instead of being a lottery seed underdog to the Bad Boys (like the Warriors)... it's night and day.. lebron is literally a choker compared to jordan.. what am i missing

[RRR3]

It isn't a deflection - Jordan dropped off for sure, but he didn't drop off as much despite having greater forces pulling him down (underdog status and literally disappearing rookie sidekicks - pippen didn't play a lot of those games down the stretch, or had 2 points)

So imagine if Jordan had dropped off to Lebron's lower level, despite being the league favorite instead of lottery seed underdog... it's night and day.. lebron is literally a choker compared to jordan.. what am i missing
Why are you terrified to compare your idol Kobe to LeBron? Why do you have to hide behind MJ?

[ImKobe]

If Kobe was injured, why take a combined 47fga in games 5 and 6? He only made 12 of them.

Maybe because the rest of the team was even worse? As bad as Kobe was, the team outside of him & Shaq was even worse. GP didn't adapt to the triangle, Malone was injured and Dfish & others could not make any shots. He was 8/25 in Game 4 but it was a close game going into the 4th and he showed up in crunch time but they lost because they gave up 32 points in the quarter, which is really bad for 2004. Lakers sucked on defense. Shaq could only do so much because he was not in prime shape. You can use the FG angle but Shaq had 30 more FTA than Kobe so their usage was almost even, which is way more than what Shaq did all year as he himself took a step back that year. Kobe was 4th in FG% on the team in that series so it's not like they had any other options, unless you think Walton and George should have got more touches.


So he was too stupid to realize he was ineffective and pass to Shaq?

Shaq got more touches in the Finals than the entire season you ****ing moron. He was not peak Shaq level in '04.

[RRR3]

Maybe because the rest of the team was even worse? As bad as Kobe was, the team outside of him & Shaq was even worse. GP didn't adapt to the triangle, Malone was injured and Dfish & others could not make any shots. He was 8/25 in Game 4 but it was a close game going into the 4th and he showed up in crunch time but they lost because they gave up 32 points in the quarter, which is really bad for 2004. Lakers sucked on defense. Shaq could only do so much because he was not in prime shape. You can use the FG angle but Shaq had 30 more FTA than Kobe so their usage was almost even, which is way more than what Shaq did all year as he himself took a step back that year. Kobe was 4th in FG% on the team in that series so it's not like they had any other options, unless you think Walton and George should have got more touches.
Embarassing how you can never admit Kobe did anything wrong. You’re a sycophant.

[ImKobe]

Embarassing how you can never admit Kobe did anything wrong. You’re a sycophant.

The team had no other options. Shaq was limited in what he could do on both ends of the court. They gave him more touches as is and it didn't matter. Game 4 was the series and it was a close game in the 4th but they got their ass kicked on defense despite Kobe and Shaq both playing well in that quarter. Kobe did not underperform in the Finals, he was inefficient the last 2 months of the season due to playing hurt. It's a dumb narrative his haters have tried to use against him but the reality is that that team overachieved, considering everything that was stacked against them from Kobe's trial to his injuries and GP not fitting in at all & the rest of the team not being adept on offense either.

[3ba11]

Why are you terrified to compare your idol Kobe to LeBron? Why do you have to hide behind MJ?


As SouBeach and I were discussing previously, the best player on a team determines a team's style of play because a team must maximize it's best player (play a style that suits their best player)....

So when comparing the best player on 2 teams, we can't compare stats only - style of play that matters as much or more because it dictates team ceiling, and that's where Kobe's edge is... Ultimately, his elite jumpshooting skill allowed superior strategy (ball movement) and teammate fits, and therefore higher team ceilings/Finals records.

[dankok8]

One of the few series early in his career you could legitimately point to LeBron for his team losing. He was very bad those last 3 games. But let's not act like similar dips in play didn't happen to Jordan as well.

1988 RS: 35/6/6 60%TS
ECSF G 1-2: 33/11/4 62%TS
ECSF G 3-5: 24/7/5 50%TS

1989 RS: 33/8/8 61%TS
ECF G 1-3: 35/7/4 57%TS
ECF G 4-6: 24/4/9 55%TS

The '89 series numbers don't even do it justice. 23 points on 5/15 in a 6 point loss in Game 4, the infamous Game 5 where he took 8 shots in a 9 point loss, then concluding the series with 8 turnovers and shooting 5/12 from the FT line in a 9 point loss in Game 6.

I know you posted this to troll 3ball but Jordan in both of those 3-game stretches was still much better than Lebron in 2010. And of course Jordan's Bulls were underdogs in those series whereas Lebron's Cavs lost as favorites.

[RRR3]

The team had no other options. Shaq was limited in what he could do on both ends of the court. They gave him more touches as is and it didn't matter. Game 4 was the series and it was a close game in the 4th but they got their ass kicked on defense despite Kobe and Shaq both playing well in that quarter. Kobe did not underperform in the Finals, he was inefficient the last 2 months of the season due to playing hurt. It's a dumb narrative his haters have tried to use against him but the reality is that that team overachieved, considering everything that was stacked against them from Kobe's trial to his injuries and GP not fitting in at all & the rest of the team not being adept on offense either.
Holy shit :roll:

[RRR3]

As SouBeach and I were discussing previously, the best player on a team determines a team's style of play because a team must maximize it's best player (play a style that suits their best player)....

So when comparing the best player on 2 teams, we can't compare stats only - style of play that matters as much or more because it dictates team ceiling, and that's where Kobe's edge is... Ultimately, his elite jumpshooting skill allowed superior strategy (ball movement) and teammate fits, and therefore higher team ceilings/Finals records.
Kobe was only the best player on his team for 2 rings :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

I know you posted this to troll 3ball but Jordan in both of those 3-game stretches was still much better than Lebron in 2010. And of course Jordan's Bulls were underdogs in those series whereas Lebron's Cavs lost as favorites.
I wasn't trolling him. And like I said to 3ball, you can deflect with LeBron, but that doesn't change the fact Jordan had significant dropoffs in both those series.

[3ba11]

The team had no other options. Shaq was limited in what he could do on both ends of the court. They gave him more touches as is and it didn't matter. Game 4 was the series and it was a close game in the 4th but they got their ass kicked on defense despite Kobe and Shaq both playing well in that quarter. Kobe did not underperform in the Finals, he was inefficient the last 2 months of the season due to playing hurt. It's a dumb narrative his haters have tried to use against him but the reality is that that team overachieved, considering everything that was stacked against them from Kobe's trial to his injuries and GP not fitting in at all & the rest of the team not being adept on offense either.


I believe that the Lakers and Shaq specifically needed to start looking at Kobe as the "Jordan" of the team starting in 2003... Like really treat him like "it's your team.. everything runs through you"... just like the 09' Lakers did... I guess it was impossible for a 3-time FMVP to do this, but if we could go back and do it over that way, then those 04' Lakers would've had great chemistry and Kobe/Shaq would win more than Kobe/Pau did

[dankok8]

I wasn't trolling him. And like I said to 3ball, you can deflect with LeBron, but that doesn't change the fact Jordan had significant dropoffs in both those series.

Yea but whose drop-offs were bigger?

[3ba11]

I wasn't trolling him. And like I said to 3ball, you can deflect with LeBron, but that doesn't change the fact Jordan had significant dropoffs in both those series.


Imagine if Lebron only dropped off to 24/7/5 with okay efficiency, and he was a lottery underdog against a dynasty

But instead his team was the league favorite, while he dropped far lower to 21 on 34%

[ImKobe]

I believe that the Lakers and Shaq specifically needed to start looking at Kobe as the "Jordan" of the team starting in 2003... Like really treat him like "it's your team.. everything runs through you"... just like the 09' Lakers did... I guess it was impossible for a 3-time FMVP to do this, but if we could go back and do it over that way, then those 04' Lakers would've had great chemistry and Kobe/Shaq would win more than Kobe/Pau did

If Shaq took basketball seriously after '01 and actually was willing to be a #2 to Kobe, they 4-peat in 2003. I don't think '04 was really winnable in hindsight with everything that transpired, but they could have won 6-7 titles together if they had been willing to take some pay cuts and did what's right for the team.


Holy shit :roll:

He did not underperform relative to what he had been doing after surgeries & re-injuring his shoulder. Heck, he averaged just 21.5 ppg on 42.3%FG the first half of the season & 25.1 ppg on 42.4%FG the first 3 rounds of the POs. He was clearly not playing up to his usual standards all year, but obviously a hater would ignore all this data.

[RRR3]

If Shaq took basketball seriously after '01 and actually was willing to be a #2 to Kobe, they 4-peat in 2003. I don't think '04 was really winnable in hindsight with everything that transpired, but they could have won 6-7 titles together if they had been willing to take some pay cuts and did what's right for the team.



He did not underperform relative to what he had been doing after surgeries & re-injuring his shoulder. Heck, he averaged just 21.5 ppg on 42.3%FG the first half of the season & 25.1 ppg on 42.4%FG the first 3 rounds of the POs. He was clearly not playing up to his usual standards all year, but obviously a hater would ignore all this data.
Why would Shaq be number two to a worse player? You’re one of the stupidest posters on ISH :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

Maybe because the rest of the team was even worse? As bad as Kobe was, the team outside of him & Shaq was even worse. GP didn't adapt to the triangle, Malone was injured and Dfish & others could not make any shots. He was 8/25 in Game 4 but it was a close game going into the 4th and he showed up in crunch time but they lost because they gave up 32 points in the quarter, which is really bad for 2004. Lakers sucked on defense. Shaq could only do so much because he was not in prime shape. You can use the FG angle but Shaq had 30 more FTA than Kobe so their usage was almost even, which is way more than what Shaq did all year as he himself took a step back that year. Kobe was 4th in FG% on the team in that series so it's not like they had any other options, unless you think Walton and George should have got more touches.



Shaq got more touches in the Finals than the entire season you ****ing moron. He was not peak Shaq level in '04.

I was talking about the 2000 Finals. Kobe went 12-47 in games 5 and 6.

2004 is the biggest upset in Finals history. Hell, Detroit didnt even have a player who was on the top 75 list. If all those things you claim were factors, then they wouldn't have been the overwhelming favorite.

[Axe]

6-16

[Axe]

2/7

[3ba11]

bump

why isn't this debacle talked about more?.. Is the media trying to cozy up to Lebron by not hurting his feelings on this one?

The 2010 Celtics won 50 games and were a bad, old team and post-Garnett injury, who averaged 14/7 for the whole season (3 rpg in the Finals) - so they were massive underdogs to the league favorite Cavs.

[kawhileonard2]

He had Prime Shaq to.

[3ba11]

He had Prime Shaq to.


Mo added 21 wins in 2009, and then Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite.

Infact, the 2009 Cavs had the 3rd ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

So Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles by winning the following season in 91', while Lebron lost in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.

[HoopsNY]

Maybe because the rest of the team was even worse? As bad as Kobe was, the team outside of him & Shaq was even worse. GP didn't adapt to the triangle, Malone was injured and Dfish & others could not make any shots. He was 8/25 in Game 4 but it was a close game going into the 4th and he showed up in crunch time but they lost because they gave up 32 points in the quarter, which is really bad for 2004. Lakers sucked on defense. Shaq could only do so much because he was not in prime shape. You can use the FG angle but Shaq had 30 more FTA than Kobe so their usage was almost even, which is way more than what Shaq did all year as he himself took a step back that year. Kobe was 4th in FG% on the team in that series so it's not like they had any other options, unless you think Walton and George should have got more touches.



Shaq got more touches in the Finals than the entire season you ****ing moron. He was not peak Shaq level in '04.

You're not wrong about a lot of what you're saying, but Kobe should have defaulted to Shaq that series. He put up 27 PPG on 63% and was the best option for LA to have a chance.

The common perception at the time and even years after was that Kobe seemed to be after recognition and winning a FMVP. Everyone more or less agreed that he should have shot the ball less and defaulted to Shaq.

[3ba11]

You're not wrong about a lot of what you're saying, but Kobe should have defaulted to Shaq that series. He put up 27 PPG on 63% and was the best option for LA to have a chance.

The common perception at the time and even years after was that Kobe seemed to be after recognition and winning a FMVP. Everyone more or less agreed that he should have shot the ball less and defaulted to Shaq.


I completely disagree - Kobe only needed Pau to win because the team was dedicated to Kobe as the top guy and built around him - so he could've won much easier with Shaq but the team was never built around him until Shaq's fat ass was gone.. If they'd built around Kobe from 2001 when Kobe demolished the Spurs like he was MJ, then the Lakers would've been a well-oiled machine every year like they were with Kobe/Pau.. Unfortunately, Shaq was never going to be okay with being 2nd fiddle to Kobe, period - it was personal - so the Lakers chose Kobe and won 2 more chips, while Shaq could only win 1 as the "pippen" to Wade.

[kawhileonard2]

Mo added 21 wins in 2009, and then Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite.

Infact, the 2009 Cavs had the 3rd ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

So Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles by winning the following season in 91', while Lebron lost in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.

He had Prime Shaq. Wade with Shaq won a title. Kobe with Shaq won 3 titles. Lebron with Shaq went out in round 2. He also won bronze medal with peak Duncan while Vince with prime KG won gold medal.

[3ba11]

He had Prime Shaq. Wade with Shaq won a title. Kobe with Shaq won 3 titles. Lebron with Shaq went out in round 2. He also won bronze medal with peak Duncan while Vince with prime KG won gold medal.


It is amazing the bevy of losing that he did from 2004-2011 - multiple bronze with dream teams and 3 straight losses as favorite and another 7-game loss where he wet the bed (26 on 35% in the 08' ECSF).

He couldn't win the East in 2009 and 2010 with home court advantage, so he formed super-teams.. It comes down to his scoring style (ball-dominant), which can't beat good teams in high volumes, so he needs equal-scoring partners on the Finals level to win..

Otoh, guys like Kawhi, MJ, Kobe, or Bird can score big amounts with jumpshooting, which allows ball movement that beat good teams - so they can win with high scoring and carry teams to titles, while Lebron can't (no titles while carrying scoring load in playoffs AND finals.. and he basically always needed equal-scoring partner to win)

[SouBeachTalents]

I completely disagree - Kobe only needed Pau to win because the team was dedicated to Kobe as the top guy and built around him - so he could've won much easier with Shaq but the team was never built around him until Shaq's fat ass was gone.. If they'd built around Kobe from 2001 when Kobe demolished the Spurs like he was MJ, then the Lakers would've been a well-oiled machine every year like they were with Kobe/Pau.. Unfortunately, Shaq was never going to be okay with being 2nd fiddle to Kobe, period - it was personal - so the Lakers chose Kobe and won 2 more chips, while Shaq could only win 1 as the "pippen" to Wade.
Kobe took 7 more shots per game than Shaq in the '03 & '04 playoffs, which was an even greater field goal disparity than between Wade & Shaq in '06. So seriously, tell me, what else did you want the Lakers to do. Give even less touches to a top 3 player in the league who was scoring buckets at 55-60%?

Look at their two losses in that timeframe. Everyone talks about '04, but look at '03, Kobe had free reign to take 27 shots a game in that Spurs series, as many as he did in any series in his career and 10 more per game than Shaq did. So by all accounts, the Lakers went through with Kobe being the unmistakable top scoring option by both ppg and shot volume those seasons, and both seasons ended in losses as the favorite, including a historic upset in '04 with Kobe having an infamously bad series.

[HoopsNY]

I completely disagree - Kobe only needed Pau to win because the team was dedicated to Kobe as the top guy and built around him - so he could've won much easier with Shaq but the team was never built around him until Shaq's fat ass was gone.. If they'd built around Kobe from 2001 when Kobe demolished the Spurs like he was MJ, then the Lakers would've been a well-oiled machine every year like they were with Kobe/Pau.. Unfortunately, Shaq was never going to be okay with being 2nd fiddle to Kobe, period - it was personal - so the Lakers chose Kobe and won 2 more chips, while Shaq could only win 1 as the "pippen" to Wade.

What are you talking about? So Kobe should have shot the ball at the rate he did while having Pau giving 17/10 on 53%, as opposed to Shaq giving 27/10 on 63%? How does that make any sense? Having Pau doesn't change the fact that Kobe played terribly in that finals.

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs

The poll results show that Lebron's 2010 loss was another choke job.

He couldn't beat the Celtics with Jamison/Mo/Shaq, while Kobe beat them with Pau/Odom

It was the 2nd year in a row that Lebron failed to win the East despite homecourt, so he formed super-teams thereafter

[3ba11]

Lebron turned into 22' Durant to lose this series

a NIGHTMARE for fans

[SouBeachTalents]

KD & Kyrie getting swept in the first round was a NIGHTMARE for 3ball

[8Ball]

KD & Kyrie getting swept in the first round was a NIGHTMARE for 3ball

:roll:


The entire ISO scoring narrative went up in smoke!

[3ba11]

:roll:


The entire ISO scoring narrative went up in smoke!


* Ball movement narrative

* high team assist narrative

I've never had an iso-scoring narrative - you made that up because you can't accept defeat..

I have a team-assist narrative and anti-ball-dominant narrative, which includes iso-ball... I've never been a supporter of iso's except end-of-shot- clock bailouts (the only capacity that iso's should be used)

Ultimately, Durant played a ball-dominant style and got destroyed like Lebron and other ball-dominators - Lebron lost in the 1st Round last year because he had the first low seed of his career - low seeds lose in the 1st Round

[LeGoat4Life]

Lebrick

[3ba11]

.

2009 Cavs....... #3 defense
1990 Bulls..... #19 defense


And Mo was far superior to Pippen offensively across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48)

So the 2009 Cavs had a better cast than the 1990 Bulls, while adding Jamison and role player Shaq in 2010 (shaq would've been the starting center on any Bulls team)

The only reason Lebron couldn't didn't win with these superior casts to the Bulls is because he lost as a massive favorite i 2009 and 2010 to a 1-star team and an old 50-win underdog.

[SouBeachTalents]

Now let's look at some of your real favorite players stretches of playoff games.

Games 3-5 2004 Finals: 18/2/4 on 42%TS. Lost 3 straight games as the heavy favorite

Games 4-6 2008 Finals: 21/5/5 on 46%TS. Included in these are blowing a 24 point lead at home and losing by 40 points in the clincher

Games 2-4 2011 WCSF: 19/2/3 on 49%TS. Lost 3 straight games as the heavy favorite, including a 36 point blowout in Game 4.
https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZGMwYjdhMzRiYWI1MGU5Yzg1NTExMTc zZGU3ZDdkOTQwMDQxNWQyYSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZzX 2dpZklkJmN0PWc/10FHR5A4cXqVrO/giphy.gif

Yeesh, this Kobe guy sucks.

[3ba11]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZGMwYjdhMzRiYWI1MGU5Yzg1NTExMTc zZGU3ZDdkOTQwMDQxNWQyYSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZzX 2dpZklkJmN0PWc/10FHR5A4cXqVrO/giphy.gif

Yeesh, this Kobe guy sucks.


Yes and he still didn't run away to form super-teams

no cheat code needed because Kobe didn't rely on ball-dominance - he evolved out of that and had expert jumpshooting skill, which yielded better teammate development & fits, strategic capacity/coaching and ultimately team ceilings/Finals records