Myth: Kobe Was an Inefficient Scorer

[dankok8]

There is this myth flowing around not just this forum but also other basketball communities like RealGM that Kobe was an inefficient scorer. People just throw out epithets like "chucker", "poor shot selection" etc. and they never get called out on it. Given his scoring volume he was actually quite efficient and well above league average efficiency. I'm only going to look at playoff numbers here and only since 2001 when he became a superstar player.

Kobe Bryant Playoff Scoring:

2001: 29.4 ppg on 55.5 %TS (+3.7 rTS)
2002: 26.6 ppg on 51.1 %TS (-0.9 rTS)
2003: 32.1 ppg on 53.1 %TS (+1.2 rTS)
2004: 24.5 ppg on 50.6 %TS (-1.0 rTS)
2006: 27.9 ppg on 58.7 %TS (+5.1 rTS)
2007: 32.8 ppg on 56.1 %TS (+2.0 rTS)
2008: 30.1 ppg on 57.7 %TS (+3.7 rTS)
2009: 30.2 ppg on 56.4 %TS (+2.0 rTS)
2010: 29.2 ppg on 56.7 %TS(+2.4 rTS)
2011: 22.8 ppg on 53.6 %TS (-0.5 rTS)
2012: 30.0 ppg on 52.5 %TS (-0.2 rTS)

Average (2001-2012): 28.5 ppg on 54.6 %TS (+1.5 rTS)

For a 12-year stretch Kobe scored 28.5 ppg in the postseason on comfortably above league efficiency. That of course includes four championship runs in 2001, 2002, 2009 and 2010. In three out of four of those runs, he shot at least 2% above league efficiency and averaged >29 ppg as well. In his 5-year peak from 2006-2010, Kobe averaged 29.8 ppg on 57.0 %TS (+2.9 rTS).

Generally speaking in all years he shot poorly he only shot up to 1% below league efficiency. Even those runs you can hardly call inefficient.

[warriorfan]

Because trolls make intellectually dishonest comparisons using only FG%.

[Hey Yo]

There is this myth flowing around not just this forum but also other basketball communities like RealGM that Kobe was an inefficient scorer. People just throw out epithets like "chucker", "poor shot selection" etc. and they never get called out on it. Given his scoring volume he was actually quite efficient and well above league average efficiency. I'm only going to look at playoff numbers here and only since 2001 when he became a superstar player.

Kobe Bryant Playoff Scoring:

2001: 29.4 ppg on 55.5 %TS (+3.7 rTS)
2002: 26.6 ppg on 51.1 %TS (-0.9 rTS)
2003: 32.1 ppg on 53.1 %TS (+1.2 rTS)
2004: 24.5 ppg on 50.6 %TS (-1.0 rTS)
2006: 27.9 ppg on 58.7 %TS (+5.1 rTS)
2007: 32.8 ppg on 56.1 %TS (+2.0 rTS)
2008: 30.1 ppg on 57.7 %TS (+3.7 rTS)
2009: 30.2 ppg on 56.4 %TS (+2.0 rTS)
2010: 29.2 ppg on 56.7 %TS(+2.4 rTS)
2011: 22.8 ppg on 53.6 %TS (-0.5 rTS)
2012: 30.0 ppg on 52.5 %TS (-0.2 rTS)

Average (2001-2012): 28.5 ppg on 54.6 %TS (+1.5 rTS)

For a 12-year stretch Kobe scored 28.5 ppg in the postseason on comfortably above league efficiency. That of course includes four championship runs in 2001, 2002, 2009 and 2010. In three out of four of those runs, he shot at least 2% above league efficiency and averaged >29 ppg as well. In his 5-year peak from 2006-2010, Kobe averaged 29.8 ppg on 57.0 %TS (+2.9 rTS).

Generally speaking in all years he shot poorly he only shot up to 1% below league efficiency. Even those runs you can hardly call inefficient.
That's because they're not referring to his uncontested foul shots. FT% can help make up for a shitty FG%. That's what makes him a prime candidate to use FG% only and not TS%

[eliteballer]

That's because they're not referring to his uncontested foul shots. FT% can help make up for a shitty FG%. That's what makes him a prime candidate to use FG% only and not TS%

His FG% was not “shitty” for his era you dope.

[Hey Yo]

His FG% was not “shitty” for his era you dope.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGUflZS7jG0

[tpols]

I think when people criticize kobes efficiency his numbers are being compared to his star contemporaries, not league average shooting.

That being said he was very efficient in his 2001, 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoff runs per ORTG. His teams had top ranked offenses, and were top assist teams as well so he got his 30+ within a system that benefited everybody.

Compare that to guys who hijack the whole system to suit themselves and shy away from all the tough shots you can see why his efficiency was never like 60-65+ TS super elite. But MJs wasn't either. When you have to bail out your team on 5+ broken possessions a game its going to dip your efficiency a little bit. All those hero shots Kobe took he couldve passed it to Fish and saved himself 5 extra TS or so but the team wouldve been worse off. And Fishers numbers wouldve taken the dive.

[Rysio]

For the shots he took he was very efficient but its not efficincy that made kobe great but being able to create shots no matter how good the defense was and hit them consistently.

[HunterSThompson]

kobe was so good he didn't even have to get open. he was one of a few rare guys that could shoot from anywhere over anyone regardless of what the defense did and still be efficient


kobe, durant, bird, dirk and prime tmac. maybe a few others.. these are the greatest contested shooters/scorers ever


and no curry doesn't belong on that list. under tight defense hes useless

[SouBeachTalents]

He was not efficient in 6 of his 7 Finals. Or in several elimination games

[RRR3]

kobe was so good he didn't even have to get open. he was one of a few rare guys that could shoot from anywhere over anyone regardless of what the defense did and still be efficient


kobe, durant, bird, dirk and prime tmac. maybe a few others.. these are the greatest contested shooters/scorers ever


and no curry doesn't belong on that list. under tight defense hes useless
You don’t watch Curry play. You’re also a 50 year old man who spent months impersonating a dead players spirit on a ghost town message board.

[ImKobe]

Kobe 08-10 Playoffs: 29.8 ppg 46.4%FG/56.9%TS

league average at the time was ~46%FG and ~54%TS.

And the early 2000s stats have to be taken with context as well, the league average in 00-02 was 44-45%FG and 52%TS.


For the shots he took he was very efficient but its not efficincy that made kobe great but being able to create shots no matter how good the defense was and hit them consistently.

Yup. the '06 and '07 seasons are ridiculous considering how little help he had on offense. Especially '07 with all the injuries and him averaging 31.6 ppg on 58%TS, he averaged 36.7 ppg post-ASB that year.

[Charlie Sheen]

There is this myth flowing around not just this forum but also other basketball communities like RealGM that Kobe was an inefficient scorer. People just throw out epithets like "chucker", "poor shot selection" etc. and they never get called out on it. Given his scoring volume he was actually quite efficient and well above league average efficiency. I'm only going to look at playoff numbers here and only since 2001 when he became a superstar player.

Kobe Bryant Playoff Scoring:

2001: 29.4 ppg on 55.5 %TS (+3.7 rTS)
2002: 26.6 ppg on 51.1 %TS (-0.9 rTS)
2003: 32.1 ppg on 53.1 %TS (+1.2 rTS)
2004: 24.5 ppg on 50.6 %TS (-1.0 rTS)
2006: 27.9 ppg on 58.7 %TS (+5.1 rTS)
2007: 32.8 ppg on 56.1 %TS (+2.0 rTS)
2008: 30.1 ppg on 57.7 %TS (+3.7 rTS)
2009: 30.2 ppg on 56.4 %TS (+2.0 rTS)
2010: 29.2 ppg on 56.7 %TS(+2.4 rTS)
2011: 22.8 ppg on 53.6 %TS (-0.5 rTS)
2012: 30.0 ppg on 52.5 %TS (-0.2 rTS)

Average (2001-2012): 28.5 ppg on 54.6 %TS (+1.5 rTS)

For a 12-year stretch Kobe scored 28.5 ppg in the postseason on comfortably above league efficiency. That of course includes four championship runs in 2001, 2002, 2009 and 2010. In three out of four of those runs, he shot at least 2% above league efficiency and averaged >29 ppg as well. In his 5-year peak from 2006-2010, Kobe averaged 29.8 ppg on 57.0 %TS (+2.9 rTS).

Generally speaking in all years he shot poorly he only shot up to 1% below league efficiency. Even those runs you can hardly call inefficient.

Kobe is an all time great. The fact that his TS% compares favorably to a league average isn't some revelation.

When people are knocking Kobe's efficiency, it's always in a discussion against his peers. Not a league average player.

[ralph_i_el]

Kobe's prime was before people realized that FG% was pointless, and before many people were shooting his volume of 3's. He was ahead of his time for shot selection for a while.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You can do rTS this season and make guys look real good as well because shooting percentages across the league are down. That's why I don't care for that stat. The fact is kobe was just never as efficient as guys like Jordan, kawhi, lebron

[dankok8]

I think when people criticize kobes efficiency his numbers are being compared to his star contemporaries, not league average shooting.

That being said he was very efficient in his 2001, 2008, 2009, and 2010 playoff runs per ORTG. His teams had top ranked offenses, and were top assist teams as well so he got his 30+ within a system that benefited everybody.

Compare that to guys who hijack the whole system to suit themselves and shy away from all the tough shots you can see why his efficiency was never like 60-65+ TS super elite. But MJs wasn't either. When you have to bail out your team on 5+ broken possessions a game its going to dip your efficiency a little bit. All those hero shots Kobe took he couldve passed it to Fish and saved himself 5 extra TS or so but the team wouldve been worse off. And Fishers numbers wouldve taken the dive.

MJ had better rTS than Kobe including much higher volume. Then again MJ's scoring is an outlier over any other player in history.

But you said star contemporaries... which stars in Kobe's era had a better combination of volume and efficiency?


For the shots he took he was very efficient but its not efficincy that made kobe great but being able to create shots no matter how good the defense was and hit them consistently.


I agree. Kobe's scoring was very resilient.


He was not efficient in 6 of his 7 Finals. Or in several elimination games


I agree but he faced some insanely good defensive teams in the finals which has to be taken into account. In fact 2002 Nets, 2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics and 2009 Magic were the best defenses in the league in those years. 2001 Sixers and 2010 Celtics were also really good on D and there were plenty of league-best defenses like the 2001 and 2003 Spurs that Kobe torched yet people rarely seem to mention it.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kobe was the TS% king in an era when nobody shot 3's

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kobe was the TS% king in an era when nobody shot 3's

rTS makes jerry west the goat, it's a dumbass stat and penalizes players for playing in leagues that were superior offensively.

[ImKobe]

He was not efficient in 6 of his 7 Finals. Or in several elimination games


Lebron
2007 vs. Spurs - 22 ppg 42.8%TS - 5+ turnovers a game as well, Spurs completely exposed his lack of range
2011 vs. Mavs - 17.8 ppg 54.1%TS - outscored by Jason Terry and put up Pippen numbers, one of the biggest meltdowns ever
2012 vs. OKC - 28.6 ppg 55.8%TS - his best Finals series before the 3PT era, put KD in foul trouble
2013 vs. Spurs - 25.3 ppg 52.9%TS - came up big in Game 7 but deserved to lose in 6
2014 vs. Spurs - 28.2 ppg 67.9%TS - Was elite vs. Spurs in 2014 in terms of efficiency numbers but that was the most one-sided Finals series ever at the time and he stat-padded those numbers down 15+ points, we've covered this a 100 times.
2015 vs. Warriors - 35.8 ppg 47.7%TS - the media went hard to try to give him the FMVP despite not one efficient scoring game and in a loss. :kobe:
2016 vs. Warriors - 29.7 ppg 56.2%TS - was mediocre before the Draymond suspension & Bogut & Iggy injuries

I don't see how these are better or more efficient performances in comparison. He didn't score 40+ in his first 5 Finals, same as Kobe, and his efficiency was on par with Kobe's until the small ball/3PT heavy era started with the Warriors. Take out the small ball GSW/injured Miami bubble series and his Finals stats are not that great at all, certainly nowhere near MJ's.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron
2007 vs. Spurs - 22 ppg 42.8%TS - 5+ turnovers a game as well, Spurs completely exposed his lack of range
2011 vs. Mavs - 17.8 ppg 54.1%TS - outscored by Jason Terry and put up Pippen numbers, one of the biggest meltdowns ever
2012 vs. OKC - 28.6 ppg 55.8%TS - his best Finals series before the 3PT era, put KD in foul trouble
2013 vs. Spurs - 25.3 ppg 52.9%TS - came up big in Game 7 but deserved to lose in 6
2014 vs. Spurs - 28.2 ppg 67.9%TS - Was elite vs. Spurs in 2014 in terms of efficiency numbers but that was the most one-sided Finals series ever at the time and he stat-padded those numbers down 15+ points, we've covered this a 100 times.
2015 vs. Warriors - 35.8 ppg 47.7%TS - the media went hard to try to give him the FMVP despite not one efficient scoring game and in a loss. :kobe:
2016 vs. Warriors - 29.7 ppg 56.2%TS - was mediocre before the Draymond suspension & Bogut & Iggy injuries

I don't see how these are better or more efficient performances in comparison. He didn't score 40+ in his first 5 Finals, same as Kobe, and his efficiency was on par with Kobe's until the small ball/3PT heavy era started with the Warriors. Take out the small ball GSW/injured Miami bubble series and his Finals stats are not that great at all, certainly nowhere near MJ's.
LeBron is much better than Kobe

[Jasper]

OP Inefficient Scorer ???

When a guy owns the ball , calls everyone to go to the other side of the court - it equals a ball hog.
His teams were Inefficient Scorers because he thought he could do it all.... Shaq baled him out as did Pau(.)
/

[Axe]

Kobe was the TS% king in an era when nobody shot 3's
In other words, in an era that was more defensive-oriented.

[ImKobe]

LeBron is much better than Kobe

Why does he have less rings despite stacking the deck every year then??

[SATAN]

Here we have a thread giving praise to ImKobe's favorite player yet he turns it into a thread about LeBron James. Absolutely obsessed.

You can't make this shit up. :facepalm

[ImKobe]

Here we have a thread giving praise to ImKobe's favorite player yet he turns it into a thread about LeBron James. Absolutely obsessed.

You can't make this shit up. :facepalm

I mean, Lebron is the pinnacle of "efficiency" in the media and on these forums according to Kobe haters yet I provide proof that he wasn't more efficient than Kobe in the POs in the same era overall and he did it at a lower volume in most series before the 3PT explosion era that inflated everyone's numbers. Did I lie or was Lebron's efficiency sub-par/mediocre in almost every Finals prior to 2017?

[TheGoatest]

He is a player whose reputation is based around his scoring, yet he never managed to shoot 47% in a career that spanned 20 seasons.
Even Westbrook has a season where he shot 47%.

[dankok8]

Here is another thing to consider when talking about Kobe's efficiency struggles in the finals... I've had a poster on RealGM point out to me that maybe a more informative TS% analysis would consider the Opponent TS so we can see if Kobe was efficient for that particular opponent. There is logic in that. Shooting 2% below league average isn't necessarily bad if it's against an elite defensive team that generally holds opponents 5% below league average.

2001 Sixers
DRtg: 98.9 (5th)
Opponent TS: 49.9%
Kobe TS: 50.1% (+0.2)

2002 Nets
DRtg: 99.5 (1st)
Opponent TS: 50.3%
Kobe TS: 62.3% (+12.0)

2004 Pistons
DRtg: 94.1 (2nd)
Opponent TS: 48.4%
Kobe TS: 45.6% (-2.8)

2008 Celtics
DRtg: 98.9 (1st)
Opponent TS: 50.8%
Kobe TS: 50.5% (-0.3)

2009 Magic
DRtg: 101.9 (1st)
Opponent TS: 50.8%
Kobe TS: 52.5% (+1.7)

2010 Celtics
DRtg: 103.8 (5th)
Opponent TS: 53.4%
Kobe TS: 52.8% (-0.6)

When looking at these numbers we can conclude that Kobe was actually fairly efficient in 2001 and 2009 and average in 2008 and 2010. Against the Pistons in 2004 he struggled a lot though but that was obvious.

[1987_Lakers]

Here is another thing to consider when talking about Kobe's efficiency struggles in the finals... I've had a poster on RealGM point out to me that maybe a more informative TS% analysis would consider the Opponent TS so we can see if Kobe was efficient for that particular opponent. There is logic in that. Shooting 2% below league average isn't necessarily bad if it's against an elite defensive team that generally holds opponents 5% below league average.

2001 Sixers
DRtg: 98.9 (5th)
Opponent TS: 49.9%
Kobe TS: 50.1% (+0.2)

2002 Nets
DRtg: 99.5 (1st)
Opponent TS: 50.3%
Kobe TS: 62.3% (+12.0)

2004 Pistons
DRtg: 94.1 (2nd)
Opponent TS: 48.4%
Kobe TS: 45.6% (-2.8)

2008 Celtics
DRtg: 98.9 (1st)
Opponent TS: 50.8%
Kobe TS: 50.5% (-0.3)

2009 Magic
DRtg: 101.9 (1st)
Opponent TS: 50.8%
Kobe TS: 52.5% (+1.7)

2010 Celtics
DRtg: 103.8 (5th)
Opponent TS: 53.4%
Kobe TS: 52.8% (-0.6)

When looking at these numbers we can conclude that Kobe was actually fairly efficient in 2001 and 2009 and average in 2008 and 2010. Against the Pistons in 2004 he struggled a lot though but that was obvious.

So besides 2002, he was below average in terms of efficiency in the Finals despite being a superstar player, this is something we already knew.

[Charlie Sheen]

So besides 2002, he was below average in terms of efficiency in the Finals despite being a superstar player, this is something we already knew.

Guy is redefining efficiency until it fits into the conclusion he started with.

You can't remove Shaq and Gasol from the discussion and say Kobe was an efficient scorer. With the exception of 2010, they were more efficient scorers than Kobe in every Finals. Who cares what the league average TS is against a defense. Kobe was taking shots that could have gone to Shaq or Pau, not some rando.

[Hey Yo]

Why does he have less rings despite stacking the deck every year then??

How many rings if Kobe lets NJ draft him??

[ImKobe]

How many rings if Kobe lets NJ draft him??

Idk, does he get Kidd and K-Mart in the early 2000s? If so then they're winning championships. Kobe could have made 10 Finals too in the weak EC.

We can play the hypothetical game all day. Y'all cry about him playing with Shaq in his early 20s but he went through his peak years on horrible teams when he would have won titles with even average supporting casts from 05-07.

[SouBeachTalents]

Idk, does he get Kidd and K-Mart in the early 2000s? If so then they're winning championships. Kobe could have made 10 Finals too in the weak EC.

We can play the hypothetical game all day. Y'all cry about him playing with Shaq in his early 20s but he went through his peak years on horrible teams when he would have won titles with even average supporting casts from 05-07.
Nah, Kobe’s never won without the best supporting cast in the league. There’s been maybe 3 titles in history that were won with an average supporting cast.

[ImKobe]

Nah, Kobe’s never won without the best supporting cast in the league. There’s been maybe 3 titles in history that were won with an average supporting cast.

You're actually delusional if you think Kobe had the best supporting cast in the league from 08-10 lmao.

[RRR3]

You're actually delusional if you think Kobe had the best supporting cast in the league from 08-10 lmao.
He didn’t win in 2008 so irrelevant. 09 and 10, he obviously did. ImStupidBe at it again.

[RogueBorg]

Nah, Kobe’s never won without the best supporting cast in the league. There’s been maybe 3 titles in history that were won with an average supporting cast.

You're crazy, Boston had a better roster than the Lakers.

[ImKobe]

He didn’t win in 2008 so irrelevant. 09 and 10, he obviously did. ImStupidBe at it again.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Now apparently Kobe had more help around him than KG or Duncan or Nash lmao.


You're crazy, Boston had a better roster than the Lakers.

Yep. 3 HOFers in their late primes + a future potential HOFer in Rondo. Deron and Melo had arguably better rosters around them too in certain seasons but weren't on Kobe's level as players.

[SouBeachTalents]

You're actually delusional if you think Kobe had the best supporting cast in the league from 08-10 lmao.
Yeah, delusional to claim the, at worst, 2nd best supporting cast in the league was the leagues best :lol

[RRR3]

You have no idea how much Kobe means to me. I would die for him!
:yaohappy:

[8Ball]

I watched Kobe's career.

He wasn't bad efficiency wise like Westbrook. But damn did he have many westbrook level shot selections.

[TheGoatest]

I watched Kobe's career.

He wasn't bad efficiency wise like Westbrook. But damn did he have many westbrook level shot selections.

I remember Kobe fans regularly praising Kobe as being "the best bad shot maker in the league", as if that was some kind of compliment, if it were true. :oldlol:
Which of course it wasn't, as Jamal Crawford was easily better at making unnecessarily tough, stupid shots.

[ImKobe]

I watched Kobe's career.

He wasn't bad efficiency wise like Westbrook. But damn did he have many westbrook level shot selections.

Him and Arenas were ahead of their time. How many stars now take those same shots from 3 that Kobe got criticized for?


I remember Kobe fans regularly praising Kobe as being "the best bad shot maker in the league", as if that was some kind of compliment, if it were true. :oldlol:
Which of course it wasn't, as Jamal Crawford was easily better at making unnecessarily tough, stupid shots.

He was. Those 05-07 teams had no business being above-average on offense, yet Kobe made them top 10 in the league by bailing out one horrible offensive possession after another.

[GimmeThat]

the myth exist probably has something to do with his height. 6'6" is on the top end of SG, particularly when it comes to agility, so it's easy to think "well, he scored a lot of points against a smaller defender, I'm not sure what's so special about it" but when it came to matching up against SG with similar size, the volume he scored at made him stand up amongst his generation, again, attributed to that agility and slashing ability.

the truth is that elite players really only pass the ball for stamina reasons, because as much bickering about players talk about how others should pass the ball more, half the times they don't know what to do with it besides simply saying "we need to make them work harder on defense, so we can play better defense"

[Kblaze8855]

That’s what comes of turning basketball into division. And a lot of the pro Kobe people here I see doing it to others. He was having seasons shooting like 25% from 3 when he was already getting best in the league talk. Did he even have 5 good 3 point shooting seasons with the real line?

Such things will factor in long term and all the pure scoring bucket types will have their standings suffer for it. Kobe and second 3 peat Jordan were the best of that type but all of them will feel it in time.

Thats how these new fans want it though. 45/30/83 or whatever will….in time…be all there is to judge a scorer by. Skill set is already barely a factor. Give it 30 years of this. People will lump Kobe in with a gang of people his fans will not be happy about.

They don’t mind using the same argument against people they aren’t impressed by though. People will laugh at that “Compared to league average” shit in time as whole eras are considered garbage because they couldn’t shoot. 2 generations into this new style?

All the non pure shooters will have been garbage in retrospect. Fans barely even give bigs a pass now. A 2? Just wait. You’re gonna wanna vomit reading Kobe evaluations

[ImKobe]

That's why you have to use CONTEXT and look at the stats relative to the era. Obviously no one's going to care that much about Kobe or Lebron decades from now, why would they? For all we know, new metrics get invented that completely re-shape how we view certain players historically.

[Kblaze8855]

Half the topics on this forum are about a guy who was drafted almost 40 years ago. Kobe and Lebron debates will be going on for decades. There are several of us who have been here doing it for 2 decades already. I hope I’m not here two more but it’s entirely possible.

And in 20 years Kobe, Jordan, and almost everyone from before the evolution into analytics based ball will all be clowned. I was reading the replies on the nba Facebook page showing the 2k ratings of the top 75. The final day had Kobe, Jordan, and Kareem as 98s and 99s and people asked how that’s possible when they had bad 3 point ratings. One was like “Jordan is a 65 from 3 how does that get him 99 overall?” like it was such a failing you can’t possibly be rated highest all around.

Those are the fans empowered by these endless “But look at the such and such percentage….” trend. You think those fans see Kobe shooting like Giannis from 3 well into his established superstardom and don’t laugh? He shot 30, 31, and 25% from 3 for three straight years the last two of which he was a title winning superstar. Under 33% from 3 for like 10 seasons.

The free throws obviously help that but kids these days will absolutely come to the conclusion Kobe couldn’t shoot just like dishonest adults say about Jordan now.

The days are gone where a midrange specialist gets full respect as a scorer because it’s damn near impossible to do well by the numbers unless you’re also padding it with a lot of threes KD style.

I don’t think there’s much chance Kobe’s standing lasts when a generation of Steph and Harden clones have come and gone.

Basketball skill isn’t appreciated when the shooting numbers don’t come with it. He’s gonna be seen as missing a massive puzzle piece.

I don’t like the whole trend but it is what it is. When Michael Redd jr retires with 26ppg for his career having shot 43% from 3 for his career on 9 attempts a game the question on him as a scorer vs Kobe is not gonna go the way either of us hope.

[eliteballer]

Half the topics on this forum are about a guy who was drafted almost 40 years ago. Kobe and Lebron debates will be going on for decades. There are several of us who have been here doing it for 2 decades already. I hope I’m not here two more but it’s entirely possible.

And in 20 years Kobe, Jordan, and almost everyone from before the evolution into analytics based ball will all be clowned. I was reading the replies on the nba Facebook page showing the 2k ratings of the top 75. The final day had Kobe, Jordan, and Kareem as 98s and 99s and people asked how that’s possible when they had bad 3 point ratings. One was like “Jordan is a 65 from 3 how does that get him 99 overall?” like it was such a failing you can’t possibly be rated highest all around.

Those are the fans empowered by these endless “But look at the such and such percentage….” trend. You think those fans see Kobe shooting like Giannis from 3 well into his established superstardom and don’t laugh? He shot 30, 31, and 25% from 3 for three straight years the last two of which he was a title winning superstar. Under 33% from 3 for like 10 seasons.

The free throws obviously help that but kids these days will absolutely come to the conclusion Kobe couldn’t shoot just like dishonest adults say about Jordan now.

The days are gone where a midrange specialist gets full respect as a scorer because it’s damn near impossible to do well by the numbers unless you’re also padding it with a lot of threes KD style.

I don’t think there’s much chance Kobe’s standing lasts when a generation of Steph and Harden clones have come and gone.

Basketball skill isn’t appreciated when the shooting numbers don’t come with it. He’s gonna be seen as missing a massive puzzle piece.

I don’t like the whole trend but it is what it is. When Michael Redd jr retires with 26ppg for his career having shot 43% from 3 for his career on 9 attempts a game the question on him as a scorer vs Kobe is not gonna go the way either of us hope.

Nah.

We've got message boards, data, basketballreference, youtube..people putting things more in perspective historically these days.

It doesn't take a a brain surgeon to see when the league goes from what the stats were in 98 or 2004 to Westbrook averaging triple doubles that something is up.

[dankok8]

Unfortunately KBlaze is right. But then again that comes with every generation's territory. No one wants to think let alone admit that the era prior to the one they live in was better. That's why the NBA won't release all the NBA videos from its archives including hundreds of Wilt's insane games. They are afraid that the modern fans will become less interested in the current brand of basketball. The NBA always takes care of its history but they want the fanbase to like the modern stats just a little bit more than those of the previous era. It helps the ratings...

[iamgine]

What makes him inefficient is he played hero ball a bit too often. Yes he made tough shots but damn it's bad shot selection.

Like...I think we all agree Durant can make shots over 2-3 defenders. And if he does that all the time, his TS% would likely still be above league average. But clearly a pass to an open Joe Harris is a way better shot.

[ImKobe]

What makes him inefficient is he played hero ball a bit too often. Yes he made tough shots but damn it's bad shot selection.

Like...I think we all agree Durant can make shots over 2-3 defenders. And if he does that all the time, his TS% would likely still be above league average. But clearly a pass to an open Joe Harris is a way better shot.

Nets might have beat the Bucks if Joe Harris never played tbh, he was that bad. That's what Kobe was working with for most of his prime though, he did not have great shooters or reliable shot creators around him. Gasol was a great fit for the triangle but you couldn't just throw him the ball in the post and have him win the game for you, he was prone to making some bad plays and wasn't a reliable FT shooter either. Fisher was the most reliable option in crunch time in the POs and Kobe trusted him in big spots ('09 vs Magic, for instance). In many ways, him playing on horrible teams and in the triangle from 05-07 made him a worse player than what he could have been. His game was a lot more enjoyable to watch under MDA's system because it actually opened up more drives for him and led to less contested/long 2s and he had the highest eFG% of his career in his 17th year and that's with an injured Lakers' roster that was plagued by injuries and didn't have many options from 3 with Nash's injury.

[iamgine]

Nets might have beat the Bucks if Joe Harris never played tbh, he was that bad. That's what Kobe was working with for most of his prime though, he did not have great shooters or reliable shot creators around him. Gasol was a great fit for the triangle but you couldn't just throw him the ball in the post and have him win the game for you, he was prone to making some bad plays and wasn't a reliable FT shooter either. Fisher was the most reliable option in crunch time in the POs and Kobe trusted him in big spots ('09 vs Magic, for instance). In many ways, him playing on horrible teams and in the triangle from 05-07 made him a worse player than what he could have been. His game was a lot more enjoyable to watch under MDA's system because it actually opened up more drives for him and led to less contested/long 2s and he had the highest eFG% of his career in his 17th year and that's with an injured Lakers' roster that was plagued by injuries and didn't have many options from 3 with Nash's injury.
Not in the long run.

[Charlie Sheen]

ThatÂ’s what comes of turning basketball into division. And a lot of the pro Kobe people here I see doing it to others. He was having seasons shooting like 25% from 3 when he was already getting best in the league talk. Did he even have 5 good 3 point shooting seasons with the real line?

Such things will factor in long term and all the pure scoring bucket types will have their standings suffer for it. Kobe and second 3 peat Jordan were the best of that type but all of them will feel it in time.

Thats how these new fans want it though. 45/30/83 or whatever willÂ….in timeÂ…be all there is to judge a scorer by. Skill set is already barely a factor. Give it 30 years of this. People will lump Kobe in with a gang of people his fans will not be happy about.

They don’t mind using the same argument against people they aren’t impressed by though. People will laugh at that “Compared to league average” shit in time as whole eras are considered garbage because they couldn’t shoot. 2 generations into this new style?

All the non pure shooters will have been garbage in retrospect. Fans barely even give bigs a pass now. A 2? Just wait. YouÂ’re gonna wanna vomit reading Kobe evaluations

Nah. The problem is people like the OP. The fan worshiping at the altar of efficiency because they've created an association with intellectual credibility. Dude can't argue against efficiency because he's not equipped to stand on his own and evaluate players historically. I believe by his own admission he didnt begin watching the NBA until the late 2000's? It forces him to reconfigure and manipulate the definition of efficiency.

Efficiency = greatness
Kobe is not efficient.

Guy cornered himself into this personal conflict and tries to reposition the statistical analysis telling himself the rest of us cant see his agenda for what it truly is.

Analytics aren't the problem. Dishonesty and inconsistency are.