Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #44

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - David Robinson
#23 - Dwyane Wade
#24 - Elgin Baylor
#25 - Scottie Pippen
#26 - Giannis Antetokounmpo
#27 - John Havlicek
#28 - Isiah Thomas
#29 - Bob Pettit
#30 - Chris Paul
#31 - Kawhi Leonard
#32 - Rick Barry
#33 - James Harden
#34 - Patrick Ewing
#35 - Bob Cousy
#36 - John Stockton
#37 - Jason Kidd
#38 - Steve Nash
#39 - Willis Reed
#40 - Walt Frazier
#41 - Allen Iverson
#42 - Clyde Drexler
#43 - Russell Westbrook
#44 - VOTING NOW

Top 50 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Dave Cowens - 2 (fsvr54, L. Kizzle)
Elvin Hayes - 1 (dankok8)
Kevin McHale - 1 (Round Mound)
Bill Walton - 1 (colts19)
Gary Payton - 1 (Naero)
Ray Allen - 1 (Airupthere)

[Manny98]

Ray Allen

[SouBeachTalents]

Hayes

[Phoenix]

Elvin Hayes

[dankok8]

Vote amigos!

[RRR3]

Gary Payton. Hayes was a team cancer and a brick.

[fsvr54]

Cowens, MVP and finals MVP, two rings

[SouBeachTalents]

Cowens, MVP and finals MVP, two rings
Dave Cowens never won FMVP

[fsvr54]

Dave Cowens never won FMVP

You are correct. Neither did Westbrook

I should've said 8x all star

[dankok8]

Cowens, MVP and finals MVP, two rings

Even Cowens' MVP is questionable. Kareem was suffering from serious voter fatigue that year. Cowens got it because he played on a 68-win team but then again there is little convincing evidence that he was more valuable than Havlicek. I'm not saying his MVP is a total farce but it's one of the weaker MVP's in history that's for sure.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Elvin Hayes

[SouBeachTalents]

Things could change, but I don’t think we’re getting to 10 votes on this. Might want to consider 8 if it continues at this pace

[francesco totti]

Gary Payton

[1987_Lakers]

Gary Payton

[Go Getter]

Kevin Mchale

[LBJ]

Bill Walton

[Nike D'Antoni]

Things could change, but I don’t think we’re getting to 10 votes on this. Might want to consider 8 if it continues at this pace

Highest vote-getter, after 20 votes in. My suggestion.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Elvin Hayes - 4 (dankok8,SouBeachTalents,Phoenix, Nike D'Antoni)
Gary Payton - 4 (Naero,RRR3, francesco totti, 1987 Lakers)
Kevin McHale - 2 (Round Mound, Go Getter)
Bill Walton - 2 (colts19, LBJ)
Dave Cowens - 2 (fsvr54, L. Kizzle)
Ray Allen - 2 (Airupthere, Manny98)

[Lebron_James]

Kevin McHale

[gonzaldo]

Elvin Hayes - te league was a bit shit in his time, but still he was one of the best players for about a decade and won a title so maybe he deserves a place in top 50 as a representative of the 70s

[Nike D'Antoni]

Elvin Hayes - 5 (dankok8,SouBeachTalents,Phoenix, Nike D'Antoni, Gonzaldo)
Gary Payton - 4 (Naero,RRR3, francesco totti, 1987 Lakers)
Kevin McHale - 3 (Round Mound, Go Getter, Lebron_James)
Bill Walton - 2 (colts19, LBJ)
Dave Cowens - 2 (fsvr54, L. Kizzle)
Ray Allen - 2 (Airupthere, Manny98)

[Nike D'Antoni]

Two more votes for 20

[Nike D'Antoni]

Just two more votes, your two votes can change the winner.

[TheCorporation]

Kevin McHale

[Magic Is Magic]

Elvin Hayes

[1987_Lakers]

Im changing my vote to McHale.

[LBJ]

McHale too. Since Walton got no chance.

[L.Kizzle]

Change my vote to Elvin Hayes.

[L.Kizzle]

Lol at McHale over Hayes.
Hayes has like double everything over McHale.

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin McHale has one All NBA team and never avg over 10 rebounds in a season.

[L.Kizzle]

McHale was only a starter for four seasons out of his 13 year career.

[Nike D'Antoni]

Elvin Hayes - 7 (dankok8,SouBeachTalents,Phoenix, Nike D'Antoni, Gonzaldo, Magic Is Magic, L.Kizzle)
Kevin McHale - 6 (Round Mound, Go Getter, Lebron_James,The Corporation, 1987 Lakers, LBJ)
Gary Payton - 3 (Naero,RRR3, francesco totti)
Bill Walton - 1 (colts19)
Dave Cowens - 1 (fsvr54)
Ray Allen - 2 (Airupthere, Manny98)

[1987_Lakers]

Kevin McHale has one All NBA team and never avg over 10 rebounds in a season.

"the most despicable player I have ever coached" - Alex Hannum on Elvin Hayes

I'm aware that Hayes has the accolades over McHale, but both in their prime I believe McHale was the superior player, much more effective on the offensive end and in my view a better defender, McHale shut guys down like Dominique Wilkins in the playoffs in '86, he had the versatility to guard multiple positions.

McHale to me also seems like a better big game performer, he always stepped up his game in the Finals, you could make a strong argument he outplayed Bird in the '85 Finals and he was the Celtics leading scorer in the '86 Finals. Hayes stunk it up in the Finals in both '75 & '79. Hayes even had a reputation for being a choker before he won in '78, this is what SI said about Hayes after the '78 Finals...

"Even the winning of the championship after nine futile seasons failed to erase Hayes' reputation as a choker. The collapse of the Philadelphia 76ers, and injuries to Bill Walton and other Portland Trail Blazers, tainted the Bullets' win over the Seattle SuperSonics. Because Hayes fouled out of two of the final seven games—including the seventh—some fans felt that the Bullets won despite Hayes rather than because of him."

That is pretty crazy stuff, people at that time actually thought the Bullets won despite having Hayes. I believe the fact that Hayes was a cancer, had a reputation as a choker, was pretty inefficient for a big man is the reason why I vote McHale over him.

[1987_Lakers]

Same SI article on the '78 Finals & Hayes...

"He led the team in scoring, rebounding and blocked shots in the championship series, as well as in the playoffs as a whole. Most people noted that Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with a little more than eight minutes left in the seventh game against Seattle."

That's pretty crazy to foul out of a game 7 in an NBA Finals game with 8 minutes left. lol.

Also...

"Unseld was voted the MVP largely because of his heroics in the final game. "Wes didn't even play in three of the games against Philadelphia," Hayes says. "Take away my points and where would we have been?"

Way to throw shade at your teammate Elvin. lol.

[1987_Lakers]

One more... Hannum on Hayes

"He was spoiled," says Hannum, now in the construction business in California. "Because of his relationship with the owner, I had no authority with him. I guess the climate in pro sports was changing and I was not willing to change with it. Hayes was exactly the kind of player I did not want. He's a front-runner. Put him in a situation where there's tension and he does not face it with courage. Give him a challenge and he'll always find some excuse to fold. I still believe it. Even last year, the Bullets won despite him rather than because of him."

[L.Kizzle]

"the most despicable player I have ever coached" - Alex Hannum on Elvin Hayes

I'm aware that Hayes has the accolades over McHale, but both in their prime I believe McHale was the superior player, much more effective on the offensive end and in my view a better defender, McHale shut guys down like Dominique Wilkins in the playoffs in '86, he had the versatility to guard multiple positions.

McHale to me also seems like a better big game performer, he always stepped up his game in the Finals, you could make a strong argument he outplayed Bird in the '85 Finals and he was the Celtics leading scorer in the '86 Finals. Hayes stunk it up in the Finals in both '75 & '79. Hayes even had a reputation for being a choker before he won in '78, this is what SI said about Hayes after the '78 Finals...

"Even the winning of the championship after nine futile seasons failed to erase Hayes' reputation as a choker. The collapse of the Philadelphia 76ers, and injuries to Bill Walton and other Portland Trail Blazers, tainted the Bullets' win over the Seattle SuperSonics. Because Hayes fouled out of two of the final seven games—including the seventh—some fans felt that the Bullets won despite Hayes rather than because of him."

That is pretty crazy stuff, people at that time actually thought the Bullets won despite having Hayes. I believe the fact that Hayes was a cancer, had a reputation as a choker, was pretty inefficient for a big man is the reason why I vote McHale over him.
I've heard the same for a Rick Barry as well. They just were not liked by their peers.

Even with that said, Kevin has ONE All NBA team under his belt. Every one else here voted in so far has 5 or more.
He has no accolades to back up a top 45 spot.
He's like Dave DeBusschere of the 80s yet he's never ranked this high and has less accolades than Dave.

If McHale some more all nba teams to back up these claims as the top 7ish PF, I could see him being this high.

[1987_Lakers]

I've heard the same for a Rick Barry as well. They just were not liked by their peers.

Even with that said, Kevin has ONE All NBA team under his belt. Every one else here voted in so far has 5 or more.
He has no accolades to back up a top 45 spot.
He's like Dave DeBusschere of the 80s yet he's never ranked this high and has less accolades than Dave.

If McHale some more all nba teams to back up these claims as the top 7ish PF, I could see him being this high.

Rick Barry was a major prick as well, but I don't believe he ever had a reputation for being a choker like Hayes did. Barry was dropping 40 ppg in the Finals against Chamberlain in '67 and pretty much made Hayes his bitch in the '75 Finals despite the Bullets being favorites to win that series.

[L.Kizzle]

Same SI article on the '78 Finals & Hayes...

"He led the team in scoring, rebounding and blocked shots in the championship series, as well as in the playoffs as a whole. Most people noted that Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with a little more than eight minutes left in the seventh game against Seattle."

That's pretty crazy to foul out of a game 7 in an NBA Finals game with 8 minutes left. lol.

Also...

"Unseld was voted the MVP largely because of his heroics in the final game. "Wes didn't even play in three of the games against Philadelphia," Hayes says. "Take away my points and where would we have been?"

Way to throw shade at your teammate Elvin. lol.
What I got out of this is HAYES led a championship team in points, rebounds and blocked shots. Anyone else does this they'd be considered a GOD, but when Hayes does it ... meh.

[1987_Lakers]

What I got out of this is HAYES led a championship team in points, rebounds and blocked shots. Anyone else does this they'd be considered a GOD, but when Hayes does it ... meh.

For what it's worth McHale led the Celtics in points, rebounds, & blocks when they lost in '85 to the Lakers, and he was pretty damn close to doing the same thing in '86 vs Houston.

[L.Kizzle]

For what it's worth McHale led the Celtics in points, rebounds, & blocks when they lost in '85 to the Lakers, and he was pretty damn close to doing the same thing in '86 vs Houston.
Cedric Max almost did it in 80 as well, but I get it. But where are his accolades at tho? For being a top 6-7 PF of all time according to some, he has ONE All-NBA team. No one can ever explain that.

[dankok8]

Game 7 in 1978 finals isn't much of an argument for Unseld. The Bullets got lit up as Unseld was unable to defend Marvin Webster who went off and IIRC Unseld also missed some crucial free throws until Dandridge and Kupchak managed to bail him out with some clutch shots. Narrative is different from reality. Hayes was comfortably the best player on that championship Bullets team. Leading the team in points, rebounds and blocks for the entire playoffs... it doesn't get a lot better than that.

[SouBeachTalents]

Same SI article on the '78 Finals & Hayes...

"He led the team in scoring, rebounding and blocked shots in the championship series, as well as in the playoffs as a whole. Most people noted that Hayes scored just 12 points and fouled out with a little more than eight minutes left in the seventh game against Seattle."

That's pretty crazy to foul out of a game 7 in an NBA Finals game with 8 minutes left. lol.

Also...

"Unseld was voted the MVP largely because of his heroics in the final game. "Wes didn't even play in three of the games against Philadelphia," Hayes says. "Take away my points and where would we have been?"

Way to throw shade at your teammate Elvin. lol.
People always complain about Iggy winning over Curry, but that was truly the weakest era of FMVP voting ever. Just look at what they did in this timeframe

1978: Voted for Unseld over Hayes (and Dandridge) despite having a significant statistical advantage
1979: Voted for DJ over Gus Johnson despite Johnson averaging 29 ppg and DJ not leading the team in points, rebounds or assists
1980: Voted for Magic over Kareem despite having a significant statistical advantage
1981: Voted for Maxwell over Bird
1982: Voted for Magic despite being 5th on the Lakers in scoring and 2nd in assists

And that was before arguably their most egregious decision of all, voting for Worthy over Magic in '88, seemingly the 3rd time in a decade they gave the award based solely on the final game of the series.

[dankok8]

People always complain about Iggy winning over Curry, but that was truly the weakest era of FMVP voting ever. Just look at what they did in this timeframe

1978: Voted for Unseld over Hayes (and Dandridge) despite having a significant statistical advantage
1979: Voted for DJ over Gus Johnson despite Johnson averaging 29 ppg and DJ not leading the team in points, rebounds, or assists
1980: Voted for Magic over Kareem despite having a significant statistical advantage
1981: Voted for Maxwell over Bird
1982: Voted for Magic despite being 5th on the Lakers in scoring and 2nd in assists

And that was before arguably their most egregious decision of all, voting for Worthy over Magic in '88, seemingly the 3rd time in a decade that they gave out the award based solely on the final game of the series.

Yep a lot of these are terrible choices. I will say though Magic probably had the best argument in 1982. The other winners were all wrong.

Corrections:

1978 = Hayes
1979 = Gus
1980 = Kareem
1981 = Bird
1982 = Magic

[1987_Lakers]

Cedric Max almost did it in 80 as well, but I get it. But where are his accolades at tho? For being a top 6-7 PF of all time according to some, he has ONE All-NBA team. No one can ever explain that.

To me his peak was that good, he didn't make an All-NBA team in '86 despite dominating the playoffs like if he was a superstar. To me he was kind of like Manu who missed out on All-NBA teams over guys like Roy, Joe Johnson, Arenas, & Rondo , but on all-time lists I've seen him ranked ahead of all of them. Both were super 6th men who made sacrifices to benefit the team.

[L.Kizzle]

To me his peak was that good, he didn't make an All-NBA team in '86 despite dominating the playoffs like if he was a superstar. To me he was kind of like Manu who missed out on All-NBA teams over guys like Roy, Joe Johnson, Arenas, & Rondo , but on all-time lists I've seen him ranked ahead of all of them. Both were super 6th men who made sacrifices to benefit the team.
Right and same with Manu. I've seen him listed over the likes of Vince and Ray Allen and he shouldn't be.

[1987_Lakers]

Right and same with Manu. I've seen him listed over the likes of Vince and Ray Allen and he shouldn't be.

Idk about Ray Allen but I would rank Manu ahead of Vince pretty easily.

[L.Kizzle]

Idk about Ray Allen but I would rank Manu ahead of Vince pretty easily.
Why is that?

[LBJ]

Reggie Miller over Ray Allen for sure.

[francesco totti]

What are we voting between Mchale and Hayes?

[dankok8]

I respect Manu's flair and intangibles but he was no Vince Carter... Imagine Duncan and Vince in their primes for a decade. Lights out for the league... People forget that Manu made 2 all-star games in his entire career. Guy was good but he's no legend. His NBA career isn't even HOF worthy.

[dankok8]

We got Hayes with 7 and McHale with 6. Please cast your vote for one of these guys!

[francesco totti]

Hayes

[fsvr54]

Reggie Miller over Ray Allen for sure.

No ****in way

[RRR3]

McHale but lol at Hayes over Payton.

[Airupthere]

Can I change my vote for now? I will go with McHale.

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin McHale easily the most overrated All Time great.

[RRR3]

Kevin McHale easily the most overrated All Time great.
No that’s Kobe Bryant. Followed by Isiah Thomas.

[1987_Lakers]

I respect Manu's flair and intangibles but he was no Vince Carter... Imagine Duncan and Vince in their primes for a decade. Lights out for the league... People forget that Manu made 2 all-star games in his entire career. Guy was good but he's no legend. His NBA career isn't even HOF worthy.

I highly doubt they would be much better as a team. Manu brings you versatility than Vince doesn't, Manu's playmaking was outstanding, he could do so much on the court... shoot, pass, drive, and handle the rock like very few SGs we have ever seen. I would have been very interested to see how Manu would have performed if he had been unleashed like Harden was once he left OKC. Give Vince a 6th man role like Ginobili and I guarantee you he wouldn't be as effective as Manu.

[1987_Lakers]

Kevin McHale easily the most overrated All Time great.

More like easily the most unguardable power forward in NBA history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdtgUOiWHJg

[dankok8]

I highly doubt they would be much better as a team. Manu brings you versatility than Vince doesn't, Manu's playmaking was outstanding, he could do so much on the court... shoot, pass, drive, and handle the rock like very few SGs we have ever seen. I would have been very interested to see how Manu would have performed if he had been unleashed like Harden was once he left OKC. Give Vince a 6th man role like Ginobili and I guarantee you he wouldn't be as effective as Manu.

Vince wouldn't be a 6th man. That's exactly my point. He was a much better player than Manu.

[dankok8]

Anyways I'm making a poll to resolve this one.

[LBJ]

No ****in way

If you put your Lebron James hate aside, every ****ing way. Ray Allen just gets mentioned and overrated to try to take shots at Lebron legacy.
Ray Allen is a career loser as the go-to guy. His rings are backup player rings or third wheel in Boston.
Reggie Miller legit carried a team to the finals as the man.

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

Kevin McHale - 8 (Round Mound, Go Getter, Lebron_James, TheCorporattion, 1987_Lakers, LBJ, RRR3, Airupthere)
Elvin Hayes - 8 (dankok8, SouBeachTalents, Phoenix, Nike D'Antoni, gonzaldo, Magic is Magic, L. Kizzle, francesco totti)
Dave Cowens - 1 (fsvr54)
Bill Walton - 1 (colts19)
Ray Allen - 1 (Manny98)
Gary Payton - 1 (Naero)

We ran a poll and McHale beat Hayes 15-13.