Higher All-Time: Elvin Hayes or Kevin McHale

[dankok8]

Who is higher all time?

[fsvr54]

This is an accomplishment vs actual skill battle

McHale was the better basketball player skill wise

[tontoz]

I was a Bullets fan back when Hayes was playing. Gotta go with McHale. Both guys were black holes but McHale was just better. Hayes relied heavily on a fadeaway jumper which isn't the most efficient shot. Not a popular guy in the locker room. Better rebounder but i think McHale was better at everything else.

McHale had so many moves in the post he was basically unguardable in spite of not being that strong or athletic. His length obviously helped. His length was close to Giannis.

[RRR3]

McHale.

[ImKobe]

Hayes had a terrible reputation as a teammate so I have to go with McHale.

[L.Kizzle]

It's crazy how fast people throw accolades out the door.

Hayes destroys him in ALL stats categories and accolades. Has scoring and rebounding titles.

[fsvr54]

Accolades, shmacolades...but is he a better player at the game of basketball?

[L.Kizzle]

Accolades, shmacolades...but is he a better player at the game of basketball?
How is he better when Hayes literally outdoes him at everything? More points, more blocks, more rebounds, even more assist and steals.
McHale was a better locker room guy and people hate Elvin.

[RRR3]

How is he better when Hayes literally outdoes him at everything? More points, more blocks, more rebounds, even more assist and steals.
McHale was a better locker room guy and people hate Elvin.
More points only because he chucked up way more shots lol.

[fsvr54]

How is he better when Hayes literally outdoes him at everything? More points, more blocks, more rebounds, even more assist and steals.
McHale was a better locker room guy and people hate Elvin.

McHale was a second or third option on stacked contenders. He has more basketball skill and acumen. Stats don't equate to being better.

[L.Kizzle]

More points only because he chucked up way more shots lol.
Kevin has ONE All NBA Team selection?

[RRR3]

Kevin has ONE All NBA Team selection?
So what? Hayes was a cancer who built mansions with all his bricks.

[L.Kizzle]

McHale was a second or third option on stacked contenders. He has more basketball skill and acumen. Stats don't equate to being better.
Don't forget he wasn't even a full time starter for only FOUR seasons.

[L.Kizzle]

So what? Hayes was a cancer who built mansions with all his bricks.
So accolades and stats only matter for certain players?

[RRR3]

So accolades and stats only matter for certain players?
McHale’s stats are better :lol

I’m not impressed by points on shit efficiency.

[fsvr54]

So accolades and stats only matter for certain players?

As far as I'm concerned accolades/stats shouldn't figure in rankings. It should be solely skills.

[97 bulls]

People pick and choose how players are evaluated based on what suits the narrative of the player they like most. In this case, McHale is being picked because of accomplishments. Now it's stats be damed.

[1987_Lakers]

I was a Bullets fan back when Hayes was playing. Gotta go with McHale. Both guys were black holes but McHale was just better. Hayes relied heavily on a fadeaway jumper which isn't the most efficient shot. Not a popular guy in the locker room. Better rebounder but i think McHale was better at everything else.

McHale had so many moves in the post he was basically unguardable in spite of not being that strong or athletic. His length obviously helped. His length was close to Giannis.

Seems like most guys who actually saw Hayes play weren't really overly impressed by him.

[Jasper]

pretty dam even , but I give the edge to Kev, because of his playoff digs

[RRR3]

People pick and choose how players are evaluated based on what suits the narrative of the player they like most. In this case, McHale is being picked because of accomplishments. Now it's stats be damed.
When did Hayes ever have a season as good as McHale did in 87?

[97 bulls]

When did Hayes ever have a season as good as McHale did in 87?

Was the question who was better? Or who had the best single season? I mean, I've seen you make arguments but talk about the importance of scoring.

[tontoz]

How is he better when Hayes literally outdoes him at everything? More points, more blocks, more rebounds, even more assist and steals.
McHale was a better locker room guy and people hate Elvin.


Not really. Hayes just played more minutes. Per 36 minutes McHale actually has slightly more points, assists, blocks were the same. The only big advantages for Hayes were rebounding and steals.

For their careers McHale shot 10% better from the field. That is a huge disparity. McHale actually had back to back seasons shooting 60% while scoring 22 and 26 per game.

McHale also made 1st or 2nd team All Defense 6 times.

[ShawkFactory]

As far as I'm concerned accolades/stats shouldn't figure in rankings. It should be solely skills.

That’s not a good way to do it either. You have to consider the entire picture. You’d overrate someone with excellent skills who is a shit teammate that didn’t contribute to winning in a real way.

[1987_Lakers]

Not really. Hayes just played more minutes. Per 36 minutes McHale actually has slightly more points, assists, blocks were the same. The only big advantages for Hayes were rebounding and steals.

For their careers McHale shot 10% better from the field. That is a huge disparity. McHale actually had back to back seasons shooting 60% while scoring 22 and 26 per game.

McHale also made 1st or 2nd team All Defense 6 times.

Yea, the efficiency edge McHale has over Hayes is pretty overwhelming. Also Hayes from '72-'78 which was his prime averaged only 21.5 ppg despite playing 41 MPG, his efficiency wasn't the best either. I see no argument whatsoever for Hayes being a better offensive player than a prime McHale

[L.Kizzle]

No one has yet to explain his one All NBA selection. If this guy is so called great (no saying he un't) where are his all nba teams or rebounding and scoring titles.
But I forgot those don't matter in the battle, just the other ones lol.

[tontoz]

No one has yet to explain his one All NBA selection. If this guy is so called great (no saying he un't) where are his all nba teams or rebounding and scoring titles.
But I forgot those don't matter in the battle, just the other ones lol.

Just look at the guys who were making All NBA back then as forwards. Early in his career Bird and Dr J were locks at the forward spots. Barkley and Malone were locks mid to late 80s.

Then you had guys like Nique, King and Dantley who had some big seasons. There were more great forwards in the 80s.

Barkley has said repeatedly that McHale is the toughest matchup he ever faced.

[1987_Lakers]

No one has yet to explain his one All NBA selection. If this guy is so called great (no saying he un't) where are his all nba teams or rebounding and scoring titles.
But I forgot those don't matter in the battle, just the other ones lol.

As mentioned in the other thread, McHale made some sacrifices Hayes didn't. And I'm sure you know how stacked the forwards were in the 80's, making it harder to make a team. McHale was going up againstt guys like Bird, Dr. J, Barkley, Wilkins, English, King, Malone etc to make a team.

In 1970's you had Truck Williams & Spencer Hayward make an All-NBA First team as a forward, lol. It's not a secret the forwards were better in the 80's and Im not gonna hold that against McHale.

[Round Mound]

Larry Bird & Kevin McHale vs Houston Rockets: 1986 FINALS (Playoffs Series Highlights)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkJK6OUYbAk

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[1987_Lakers]

Just look at the guys who were making All NBA back then as forwards. Early in his career Bird and Dr J were locks at the forward spots. Barkley and Malone were locks mid to late 80s.

Then you had guys like Nique, King and Dantley who had some big seasons. There were more great forwards in the 80s.

Barkley has said repeatedly that McHale is the toughest matchup he ever faced.

Beat me to it.

[97 bulls]

So let me get this straight. Some of you guys are picking McHale because he has better narrative stats right? Funny thing is, I've seen many of you guys make arguments against players by saying said player never led a team to a championship as the best player. In this discussion, didn't Hayes lead his team farther than McHale did? Insofactto, Hayes is the best player?

[RRR3]

So let me get this straight. Some of you guys are picking McHale because he has better narrative stats right? Funny thing is, I've seen many of you guys make arguments against players by saying said player never led a team to a championship as the best player. In this discussion, didn't Hayes lead his team farther than McHale did? Insofactto, Hayes is the best player?
Unseld was the leader of that team not Hayes :confusedshrug:

Even the coach said they won in spite of him

[1987_Lakers]

So let me get this straight. Some of you guys are picking McHale because he has better narrative stats right? Funny thing is, I've seen many of you guys make arguments against players by saying said player never led a team to a championship as the best player. In this discussion, didn't Hayes lead his team farther than McHale did? Insofactto, Hayes is the best player?

People are picking McHale because they feel he was the better player, didn't Hayes lead his team farther than Barkley, K. Malone, & Ewing? Why is he not ranked ahead of those guys? Lol. All due respect to 70's NBA, but you didn't need much of a team to win it all back then, no way does Hayes win as the best player if you put him in the league anywhere between 1980-present time.

[tontoz]

So let me get this straight. Some of you guys are picking McHale because he has better narrative stats right? Funny thing is, I've seen many of you guys make arguments against players by saying said player never led a team to a championship as the best player. In this discussion, didn't Hayes lead his team farther than McHale did? Insofactto, Hayes is the best player?

Were you under the impression that Hayes was the leader on the Bullets when they won the title?

He averaged 19.7 ppg that year shooting 45%. They had 5 guys averaging at least 14 ppg.

I felt like Bobby Dandridge (just entered the HOF) was the leader of that team. Unseld won the Finals MVP though.

[tanibanana]

I equally like and dislike both of them, i would say I can judge them accurately fair.
Hayes is the greater player.

[L.Kizzle]

Unseld was the leader of that team not Hayes :confusedshrug:

Even the coach said they won in spite of him
Nobody liked Hayes. Doesn't mean he should get dropped in a ranking. Dude has over 27000 points and 16000 rebounds.
Number 11 and number 4 all time respectively.

[L.Kizzle]

Just look at the guys who were making All NBA back then as forwards. Early in his career Bird and Dr J were locks at the forward spots. Barkley and Malone were locks mid to late 80s.

Then you had guys like Nique, King and Dantley who had some big seasons. There were more great forwards in the 80s.

Barkley has said repeatedly that McHale is the toughest matchup he ever faced.
Bird, Erving, Dantley, M Johnson, English, King, Buck Williams, Cummings, Sampson, Wilkins, Barkley, Malone, Chambers, Mullin, Worthy. Surely the great Kevin McHale should have been able to sneak on a couple of All-NBA teams over the likes of Chambers, Cummings, Mullin and even Worthy. He was literally a top 10 player in the league ONCE.

Barkley is a terrible defender, of course McHale will give him work.

[BigShotBob]

Nobody liked Hayes. Doesn't mean he should get dropped in a ranking. Dude has over 27000 points and 16000 rebounds.
Number 11 and number 4 all time respectively.

I know for a fact that nobody here even knows how Elvin Hayes played, what his accomplishments were, when his best seasons occurred, the teammates he had around him during his tenure on the Bullets (hint, it was practically nobody) and how he was forced to lead his team during those circumstances.

To me he's comfortably ahead of McHale not because McHale wasn't a great player and a master of a thousand moves in the post, but because he hasn't in any capacity proven that he could carry the offensive burden nor could he dominate defensively and on the boards like Elvin Hayes could.

[1987_Lakers]

I know for a fact that nobody here even knows how Elvin Hayes played, what his accomplishments were, when his best seasons occurred, the teammates he had around him during his tenure on the Bullets (hint, it was practically nobody) and how he was forced to lead his team during those circumstances.

To me he's comfortably ahead of McHale not because McHale wasn't a great player and a master of a thousand moves in the post, but because he hasn't in any capacity proven that he could carry the offensive burden nor could he dominate defensively and on the boards like Elvin Hayes could.

Yea, he only played with 2 hall of fame teammates who were in their prime. Keep exposing yourself.

[L.Kizzle]

Yea, he only played with 2 hall of fame teammates who were in their prime. Keep exposing yourself.
One literally just made the Hall this season and only played in Washington 4 seasons at the end of his career.

[1987_Lakers]

Also need to give a shout out to Phil Chenier who was an All-star guard for the Bullets when they made the Finals in '75, he was arguably their best player in the Finals that year despite getting swept.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Akm_bPOMs

[1987_Lakers]

One literally just made the Hall this season and only played in Washington 4 seasons at the end of his career.

You're really gonna agree with the trash he just said? Hayes played with nobody when he was in Washington? LOL.

Hayes played with nobody very early in his career with the Rockets and they had a losing record in all the 4 years Hayes was there.

[L.Kizzle]

You're really gonna agree with the trash he just said? Hayes played with nobody when he was in Washington? LOL.

Hayes played with nobody very early in his career with the Rockets and they had a losing record in all the 4 years Hayes was there.
Who said I agree with him, just saying the Bullets HoFers and the Celtics HoFers were night and day.

And the Bullets were the most consistent team of the 1970s. Never missed the playoffs and made the Finals 4 times.

[2much_knowledge]

This thread is sooooooo telling it should be bookmarked. Props to op for bringing a different topic to the spotlight.

I see alot of people making cases or dismissing things that they don't even apply when it comes to ranking their favorite players. At least stay consistent and don't fck your credibility.

Thats why i listen to the actual players who faced multiple goat candidates and are unbiased, not bitter and not trying to sell books. Rather than listening to sports channels or tv analysts who never played

[97 bulls]

Unseld was the leader of that team not Hayes :confusedshrug:

Even the coach said they won in spite of him

Hayes was always considered the best player on that Bullets team. They weren't even supposed to win that Championship. They had only won 44 games. No Bullets players finished higher in the MVP voting than Hayes did during that time frame.

[97 bulls]

People are picking McHale because they feel he was the better player, didn't Hayes lead his team farther than Barkley, K. Malone, & Ewing? Why is he not ranked ahead of those guys? Lol. All due respect to 70's NBA, but you didn't need much of a team to win it all back then, no way does Hayes win as the best player if you put him in the league anywhere between 1980-present time.

So then where do you rank Kareem? Because most of his damage was done in the 70s.

And you're going based on feelings here? Lol. This is rich.

[97 bulls]

I know for a fact that nobody here even knows how Elvin Hayes played, what his accomplishments were, when his best seasons occurred, the teammates he had around him during his tenure on the Bullets (hint, it was practically nobody) and how he was forced to lead his team during those circumstances.

To me he's comfortably ahead of McHale not because McHale wasn't a great player and a master of a thousand moves in the post, but because he hasn't in any capacity proven that he could carry the offensive burden nor could he dominate defensively and on the boards like Elvin Hayes could.

Much respect to you BigShotBob. Can't argue against a person that's consistent with their assessments.

[97 bulls]

Were you under the impression that Hayes was the leader on the Bullets when they won the title?

He averaged 19.7 ppg that year shooting 45%. They had 5 guys averaging at least 14 ppg.

I felt like Bobby Dandridge (just entered the HOF) was the leader of that team. Unseld won the Finals MVP though.

How are you quantifying leader? As in best player? Vocal? By example? As I stated before, none of those Bullets players finished higher than Hayes did in the MVP voting during that time frame. Granted that's not the end all to be all, but it's definitely telling.

[ImKobe]

McHale definitely showed he could be a dominant scorer in both RS & Playoffs. Someone as skilled as him in the post would put up numbers on any team, but he didn't get the opportunity to consistently be in that role playing next to Bird. He had a higher career OREB% than Hayes but played on the same team with multiple great rebounders so his averages don't look as good, but he was an excellent rebounder. The pace was way higher in the 70s so Hayes put up bigger numbers but they're actually quite even in most categories. Hayes had more volume and McHale was miles ahead in efficiency. He did lead the Finals in scoring that had both Bird and Hakeem in it, while also having the highest TS% among players who played significant minutes in the series.

Yes, McHale played on better teams and I don't think you'd pick him over Elvin because of the ring count. McHale was All-NBA 1st team in '87 over Nique and Barkley. There was a lot of competition at the Forward spot though, especially in the late 80s when Chuck and Malone became superstars as well, he wasn't going to make it with just two All-NBA teams at the time.

[97 bulls]

McHale definitely showed he could be a dominant scorer in both RS & Playoffs. Someone as skilled as him in the post would put up numbers on any team, but he didn't get the opportunity to consistently be in that role playing next to Bird. He had a higher career OREB% than Hayes but played on the same team with multiple great rebounders so his averages don't look as good, but he was an excellent rebounder. The pace was way higher in the 70s so Hayes put up bigger numbers but they're actually quite even in most categories. Hayes had more volume and McHale was miles ahead in efficiency. He did lead the Finals in scoring that had both Bird and Hakeem in it, while also having the highest TS% among players who played significant minutes in the series.

Yes, McHale played on better teams and I don't think you'd pick him over Elvin because of the ring count. McHale was All-NBA 1st team in '87 over Nique and Barkley. There was a lot of competition at the Forward spot though, especially in the late 80s when Chuck and Malone became superstars as well, he wasn't going to make it with just two All-NBA teams at the time.

Look at all that context. Funny how that works. How did McHale do without Bird?

[ImKobe]

Look at all that context. Funny how that works. How did McHale do without Bird?

Led the Celtics to the POs the year Bird was injured and still averaged 22.5 on above 60%TS without him.

[BigShotBob]

Led the Celtics to the POs the year Bird was injured and still averaged 22.5 on above 60%TS without him.

Defensively and on the boards the gap is too wide between them. Nobody here even knows to mention that they didn't start counting blocks until Elvin Hayes was already 5-6 years in and he averaged 2 a game and is top 25 in blocks...

[RRR3]

Defensively and on the boards the gap is too wide between them. Nobody here even knows to mention that they didn't start counting blocks until Elvin Hayes was already 5-6 years in and he averaged 2 a game and is top 25 in blocks...
McHale was 6x all-defensive :lol

Lol at basing it on raw block totals, you’re a caveman.

[BigShotBob]

Yea, he only played with 2 hall of fame teammates who were in their prime. Keep exposing yourself.

Name the years. Don't be obtuse.

[RRR3]

Name the years. Don't be obtuse.
Didn’t you say Horry was top 10 all time once? :yaohappy:

[BigShotBob]

McHale was 6x all-defensive :lol

Lol at basing it on raw block totals, you’re a caveman.

You literally don't know anything about the era or how either player played.


Didn’t you say Horry was top 10 all time once? :yaohappy:

Find the quote little boy

[RRR3]

You literally don't know anything about the era or how either player played.



Find the quote little boy
I don’t chronicle your posts :lol

Ok where’s Horry rank all time?

[BigShotBob]

I don’t chronicle your posts :lol

Ok where’s Horry rank all time?

Somewhere between Samaki Walker and Vernon Maxwell

[tontoz]

Bird, Erving, Dantley, M Johnson, English, King, Buck Williams, Cummings, Sampson, Wilkins, Barkley, Malone, Chambers, Mullin, Worthy. Surely the great Kevin McHale should have been able to sneak on a couple of All-NBA teams over the likes of Chambers, Cummings, Mullin and even Worthy. He was literally a top 10 player in the league ONCE.

Barkley is a terrible defender, of course McHale will give him work.

That wasn't his point. He struggled to defend everyone. He struggled to score on McHale.

Dantley is the only guy other than Steph to win a scoring title with a 65% TS. He had 4 straight seasons averaging 30 ppg.

Bernard King was the OG midrange assassin, averaging 33 ppg shooting 53% from the field before his injury.

Worthy only made the 3rd team. They didn't even have a 3rd team All-NBA until the late 88.

English also won a scoring title and had 6 straight seasons averaging 25 ppg.

Nique won a scoring title and had 8 straight seasons averaging 25 ppg.

[ImKobe]

Defensively and on the boards the gap is too wide between them. Nobody here even knows to mention that they didn't start counting blocks until Elvin Hayes was already 5-6 years in and he averaged 2 a game and is top 25 in blocks...

A 2% TRB% gap is not that wide. It's not like we're comparing McHale's rebounding to Rodman's.

[tontoz]

How are you quantifying leader? As in best player? Vocal? By example? As I stated before, none of those Bullets players finished higher than Hayes did in the MVP voting during that time frame. Granted that's not the end all to be all, but it's definitely telling.

I was watching the games. At that time i would say Dandridge was better on both ends. At the end of a tight game i wanted him to have the ball, not Hayes who would shoot that fadeaway even if someone else was wide open. He scored just as much as Hayes on better efficiency.

He also made 2nd team All-NBA, and 1st team All Defense, the year after their title in addition to being 5th on the MVP voting.

[tontoz]

Defensively and on the boards the gap is too wide between them. Nobody here even knows to mention that they didn't start counting blocks until Elvin Hayes was already 5-6 years in and he averaged 2 a game and is top 25 in blocks...

Hayes didn't play with Bird at the 3, who averaged 10 rpg for his career. McHale surely would have averaged more rebounds on a different team.

Both Hayes and McHale averaged 2 blocks per 36 minutes. McHale was 6x All Defense.

[BigShotBob]

A 2% TRB% gap is not that wide. It's not like we're comparing McHale's rebounding to Rodman's.

McHale isn't outrebounding Elvin Hayes by virtually any metric even if you adjust for minutes played. He's simply just not as good as him on the boards nor did he possess his motor. Elvin Hayes as a rebounder especially in his prime was as active as Moses Malone. But you'd have to watch him to know that.


Hayes didn't play with Bird at the 3, who averaged 10 rpg for his career. McHale surely would have averaged more rebounds on a different team.

Both Hayes and McHale averaged 2 blocks per 36 minutes. McHale was 6x All Defense.

They didn't even count blocks until Hayes was almost 5-6 years in.

Edit: And Hayes played with Wes Unseld...

[1987_Lakers]

McHale isn't outrebounding Elvin Hayes by virtually any metric even if you adjust for minutes played. He's simply just not as good as him on the boards nor did he possess his motor. Elvin Hayes as a rebounder especially in his prime was as active as Moses Malone. But you'd have to watch him to know that.



They didn't even count blocks until Hayes was almost 5-6 years in.

Edit: And Hayes played with Wes Unseld...

But you just said Hayes played with nobody. :oldlol:

[BigShotBob]

But you just said Hayes played with nobody. :oldlol:

Trivia time.

What happened to Wes Unseld in the 1973-1974 season?

[RRR3]

But you just said Hayes played with nobody. :oldlol:
:yaohappy:

BigIdiotBob at it again.

[1987_Lakers]

McHale isn't outrebounding Elvin Hayes by virtually any metric even if you adjust for minutes played. He's simply just not as good as him on the boards nor did he possess his motor. Elvin Hayes as a rebounder especially in his prime was as active as Moses Malone. But you'd have to watch him to know that.


Another dumb comment. Prime for prime...

Hayes: 16 TRB%
Moses: 22 TRB%

[BigShotBob]

:yaohappy:

BigIdiotBob at it again.

Sit down and be educated young one.

[1987_Lakers]

Sit down and be educated young one.

Educate us please...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?483825-Stick-a-fork-in-Giannis

[tontoz]

I know for a fact that nobody here even knows how Elvin Hayes played, what his accomplishments were, when his best seasons occurred, the teammates he had around him during his tenure on the Bullets (hint, it was practically nobody) and how he was forced to lead his team during those circumstances.

To me he's comfortably ahead of McHale not because McHale wasn't a great player and a master of a thousand moves in the post, but because he hasn't in any capacity proven that he could carry the offensive burden nor could he dominate defensively and on the boards like Elvin Hayes could.


The only year that you can even argue that Hayes "carried the offensive burden" was in 76/77 when they lost in the 2nd round.

[BigShotBob]

Another dumb comment. Prime for prime...

Hayes: 16 TRB%
Moses: 22 TRB%

In terms of activity level they were in the same tier.

Also TRB% wasn't accounted for in Elvin Hayes first 2 seasons, which were in raw rebound numbers two of his three best years.

Try again.

[tontoz]

McHale isn't outrebounding Elvin Hayes by virtually any metric even if you adjust for minutes played. He's simply just not as good as him on the boards nor did he possess his motor. Elvin Hayes as a rebounder especially in his prime was as active as Moses Malone. But you'd have to watch him to know that.



They didn't even count blocks until Hayes was almost 5-6 years in.

Edit: And Hayes played with Wes Unseld...



Unseld was a center. There were a lot of centers who were good rebounders. Parish was no slouch, averaging over 10 rebounds per game in the 80s even though he wasn't playing big minutes.

How many 3s averaged 10 rebounds per game for their career?

[RRR3]

Educate us please...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?483825-Stick-a-fork-in-Giannis
:yaohappy:

What a moron.

[BigShotBob]

Educate us please...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?483825-Stick-a-fork-in-Giannis

What happened to the teams Giannis beat? Remind me.


The only year that you can even argue that Hayes "carried the offensive burden" was in 76/77 when they lost in the 2nd round.

So he didn't carry the offensive burden in San Diego?

[97 bulls]

Led the Celtics to the POs the year Bird was injured and still averaged 22.5 on above 60%TS without him.

But he didn't get the job done. Isn't that your view on Pippen? Is leading a team to the playoffs now a great feat? Again, the inconsistencies.

[97 bulls]

Somewhere between Samaki Walker and Vernon Maxwell

Lol.

[BigShotBob]

Unseld was a center. There were a lot of centers who were good rebounders. Parish was no slouch, averaging over 10 rebounds per game in the 80s even though he wasn't playing big minutes.

How many 3s averaged 10 rebounds per game for their career?

Unseld even post knee surgery was a very good rebounder. But that was what he focused on the most. I'll give you Parish and yes Bird was a great rebounder for his position, but even without them McHale isn't pulling down 17 or 16 or 18 RPG seasons.

[tontoz]

What happened to the teams Giannis beat? Remind me.



So he didn't carry the offensive burden in San Diego?


San Diego? I thought we were talking about his Bullets years.

Putting up big scoring numbers on a losing team in the 60s just isn't that impressive. Kevin Love put up big numbers on a bad team.

[tontoz]

McHale's 26 ppg shooting 60% on a playoff team punks any scoring season Hayes ever had.

[1987_Lakers]

In terms of activity level they were in the same tier.

Also TRB% wasn't accounted for in Elvin Hayes first 2 seasons, which were in raw rebound numbers two of his three best years.

Try again.

So we are going to ignore his TRB% from the time he was 25 years old up until he was 32, which was his prime? If he was such an active rebounder like Moses he would have had a much higher TRB% during his prime years. Hayes wasn't even a better rebounder than Wes Unseld, to say he was at the same level as Moses in that department is moronic to say the least.

His raw rebounding numbers look impressive because he played 42 MPG and in an era where rebounds came easier. Those numbers don't translate to today's NBA.

[L.Kizzle]

I was watching the games. At that time i would say Dandridge was better on both ends. At the end of a tight game i wanted him to have the ball, not Hayes who would shoot that fadeaway even if someone else was wide open. He scored just as much as Hayes on better efficiency.

He also made 2nd team All-NBA, and 1st team All Defense, the year after their title in addition to being 5th on the MVP voting.
So Hayes sounds like a Westbrook PF lol.

You're giving props to Bob for making an All-NBA team but in a previous post making every excuse in the book for why McHale only made one.

[tontoz]

So Hayes sounds like a Westbrook PF lol.

You're giving props to Bob for making an All-NBA team but in a previous post making every excuse in the book for why McHale only made one.


Comparing one era to another is a lot different than comparing two guys on the same team.

[L.Kizzle]

McHale's 26 ppg shooting 60% on a playoff team punks any scoring season Hayes ever had.
That punks a lot of people's best season but he doesn't have constant seasons like that or any individual accolades.

[1987_Lakers]

So Hayes sounds like a Westbrook PF lol.

You're giving props to Bob for making an All-NBA team but in a previous post making every excuse in the book for why McHale only made one.

That's what I've been saying all along. No doubt as a pure talent and if you look at individual accolades he is an all-time great, but I tend to be lower on guys such as Iverson, Westbrook, & Hayes because their play style at times did not benefit the team, for Hayes he was somewhat inefficient, but it was his cancerous personality that lowered the team morale.

[tontoz]

That punks a lot of people's best season but he doesn't have constant seasons like that or any individual accolades.

Yeah because he played with one of the all time greats in Bird and had to sacrifice shots to win titles. Without Bird he was the focal point and put up numbers Hayes could never match.

I would say 6x all NBA defense 1st or 2nd team counts as individual accolades. Ditto leading the league in FG% in back to back seasons (while averaging 22+ ppg). The only other guy i have ever seen do that is Barkley.

[L.Kizzle]

Yeah because he played with one of the all time greats in Bird and had to sacrifice shots to win titles. Without Bird he was the focal point and put up numbers Hayes could never match.

I would say 6x all NBA defense 1st or 2nd team counts as individual accolades. Ditto leading the league in FG% in back to back seasons (while averaging 22+ ppg). The only other guy i have ever seen do that is Barkley.
Yet Westbrook and AI have been voted in. What is the holdup on Hayes? He had a title that they don't (and 3 Finals appearances.) He doesn't have the MVP but once again he was not liked by his teammates, opponents and the media lol.

[1987_Lakers]

Yet Westbrook and AI have been voted in. What is the holdup on Hayes? He had a title that they don't (and 3 Finals appearances.) He doesn't have the MVP but once again he was not liked by his teammates, opponents and the media lol.

Just be happy he is gonna make top 50 in this project, RealGM had him at #59.

[tontoz]

Yet Westbrook and AI have been voted in. What is the holdup on Hayes? He had a title that they don't (and 3 Finals appearances.) He doesn't have the MVP but once again he was not liked by his teammates, opponents and the media lol.


Voted in what?

[L.Kizzle]

Voted in what?
There is a top 50 poll going around on this board. This is for the tiebreaker for number 44 and 45 I think.

[tontoz]

There is a top 50 poll going around on this board. This is for the tiebreaker for number 44 and 45 I think.



LOL i haven't look at that once.

[L.Kizzle]

LOL i haven't look at that once.
Lol, it's almost over. 5 more spots. Will be interesting who makes the cut.

[97 bulls]

So we are going to ignore his TRB% from the time he was 25 years old up until he was 32, which was his prime? If he was such an active rebounder like Moses he would have had a much higher TRB% during his prime years. Hayes wasn't even a better rebounder than Wes Unseld, to say he was at the same level as Moses in that department is moronic to say the least.

His raw rebounding numbers look impressive because he played 42 MPG and in an era where rebounds came easier. Those numbers don't translate to today's NBA.

Weren't you laughing at me for using rebound percentage?

[1987_Lakers]

Weren't you laughing at me for using rebound percentage?

I only laughed at you when you tried to tweak the stats to try to make Pippen look like a better rebounder than Bird.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?275820-Scottie-Pippen-vs-Larry-Bird-rebounding

Bird has a higher TRB% than Pippen as well.

[L.Kizzle]

That's what I've been saying all along. No doubt as a pure talent and if you look at individual accolades he is an all-time great, but I tend to be lower on guys such as Iverson, Westbrook, & Hayes because their play style at times did not benefit the team, for Hayes he was somewhat inefficient, but it was his cancerous personality that lowered the team morale.
30 years from Kemba Walker will be considered better than Westbrook lol.

[1987_Lakers]

30 years from Kemba Walker will be considered better than Westbrook lol.

Maybe if Walker had an all-time great peak like McHale did, sure. Too bad that wasn't the case.

[L.Kizzle]

Maybe if Walker had an all-time great peak like McHale did, sure. Too bad that wasn't the case.
I'm joking about Kemba. Though Dame Lillard would be a better option.

[SouBeachTalents]

Maybe if Walker had an all-time great peak like McHale did, sure. Too bad that wasn't the case.
Yeah, that was a terrible example :lol

[ImKobe]

But he didn't get the job done. Isn't that your view on Pippen? Is leading a team to the playoffs now a great feat? Again, the inconsistencies.

He lost to the Pistons, the team that beat the Celtics with Larry the year before lol..

[97 bulls]

I only laughed at you when you tried to tweak the stats to try to make Pippen look like a better rebounder than Bird.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?275820-Scottie-Pippen-vs-Larry-Bird-rebounding

Bird has a higher TRB% than Pippen as well.

Bro. I also compared the rebound percentage of their teammates. Bird doesn't get 14% of the rebounds playing next to Rodman and as a true perimeter player like Pippen.

[97 bulls]

He lost to the Pistons, the team that beat the Celtics with Larry the year before lol..

So? What round did he lose to the Pistons in? What was their overall record? The McHale led Celtics were first round fodder. Lol. Stop trying to move the goalpost.

[SouBeachTalents]

This has turned into the 2000 election. I think you should just call it for Hayes at this point.

[RRR3]

This has turned into the 2000 election. I think you should just call it for Hayes at this point.
Rigged! Not making the votes public means known alts can vote.

[1987_Lakers]

Bro. I also compared the rebound percentage of their teammates. Bird doesn't get 14% of the rebounds playing next to Rodman and as a true perimeter player like Pippen.

Just stop, Bird in '86 playing with Parish, McHale, & Walton had a higher TRB% than '95 Pippen when he didn't even have Horace or Rodman on the team.

[dankok8]

Hayes' longevity just destroys McHale's... like I'm not even a longevity guy but we're talking like 12 prime years vs. 5 prime years. There's also little doubt that McHale benefitted from playing with Bird and had the comfort of being a 2nd option offensively whereas Hayes was a 1st option. And again a successful 1st option that led his team to three finals and a ring. Yes the Bullets were talented. They had Wes Unseld, Bobby Dandridge, and Phil Chenier but Hayes was the best player on that team. Finished higher than all of his teammates in MVP voting every single year... and put up 23/13 in the playoffs on about league average efficiency for almost a decade with the Bullets. People act like he was a scrub.

[1987_Lakers]

McHale - 15 votes
Hayes - 13 votes

[RRR3]

Hayes' longevity just destroys McHale's... like I'm not even a longevity guy but we're talking like 12 prime years vs. 5 prime years. There's also little doubt that McHale benefitted from playing with Bird and had the comfort of being a 2nd option offensively whereas Hayes was a 1st option. And again a successful 1st option that led his team to three finals and a ring. Yes the Bullets were talented. They had Wes Unseld, Bobby Dandridge, and Phil Chenier but Hayes was the best player on that team. Finished higher than all of his teammates in MVP voting every single year... and put up 23/13 in the playoffs on about league average efficiency for almost a decade with the Bullets. People act like he was a scrub.
Too bad so sad. McHale is up two, call it bub.

[tontoz]

Hayes' longevity just destroys McHale's... like I'm not even a longevity guy but we're talking like 12 prime years vs. 5 prime years. There's also little doubt that McHale benefitted from playing with Bird and had the comfort of being a 2nd option offensively whereas Hayes was a 1st option. And again a successful 1st option that led his team to three finals and a ring. Yes the Bullets were talented. They had Wes Unseld, Bobby Dandridge, and Phil Chenier but Hayes was the best player on that team. Finished higher than all of his teammates in MVP voting every single year... and put up 23/13 in the playoffs on about league average efficiency for almost a decade with the Bullets. People act like he was a scrub.


So what were Hayes numbers when he "led" the bullets to a ring?

Only fractionally more points than Dandridge on worse efficiency.

[RRR3]

So what were Hayes numbers when he "led" the bullets to a ring?

Only fractionally more points than Dandridge on worse efficiency.
Muh PPGZ doe!

[1987_Lakers]

Hayes' longevity just destroys McHale's... like I'm not even a longevity guy but we're talking like 12 prime years vs. 5 prime years. There's also little doubt that McHale benefitted from playing with Bird and had the comfort of being a 2nd option offensively whereas Hayes was a 1st option. And again a successful 1st option that led his team to three finals and a ring. Yes the Bullets were talented. They had Wes Unseld, Bobby Dandridge, and Phil Chenier but Hayes was the best player on that team. Finished higher than all of his teammates in MVP voting every single year... and put up 23/13 in the playoffs on about league average efficiency for almost a decade with the Bullets. People act like he was a scrub.

By definition he was probably their best player, but he was the best player on the team the same way Ben Wallace or Dave Cowens were the best players on their championship teams, all those teams had a bunch of guys who were all-star caliber, but nobody outstanding like MJ, Bird, Walton etc. And considering Hayes had absolute shit intangibles, his claim for being the best player makes it less impressive to me.

[L.Kizzle]

By definition he was probably their best player, but he was the best player on the team the same way Ben Wallace or Dave Cowens were the best players on their championship teams, all those teams had a bunch of guys who were all-star caliber, but nobody outstanding like MJ, Bird, Walton etc. And considering Hayes had absolute shit intangibles, his claim for being the best player makes it less impressive to me.
Really Ben Wallace now. Ben Wallace ever led the league in scoring? Hayes did both scoring and rebounding.

[dankok8]

So what were Hayes numbers when he "led" the bullets to a ring?

Only fractionally more points than Dandridge on worse efficiency.

Hayes actually averaged 0.6 more ppg on 0.7% higher efficiency in the 1978 playoffs! :pimp:

[1987_Lakers]

R Hayes did both scoring and rebounding.

The only time he led the NBA in scoring was on a lottery team and we already went through his overrated rebounding. You had someone here try to say his rebounding level was as the same level as Moses. lol

[L.Kizzle]

The only time he led the NBA in scoring was on a lottery team and we already went through his overrated rebounding. You had someone here try to say his rebounding level was as the same level as Moses. lol
Well, he is 4th All Time in rebounding right above Moses ...

[L.Kizzle]

The only time he led the NBA in scoring was on a lottery team and we already went through his overrated rebounding. You had someone here try to say his rebounding level was as the same level as Moses. lol
So Hayes was at least better than McHale as a rookie, lol.

[dankok8]

By definition he was probably their best player, but he was the best player on the team the same way Ben Wallace or Dave Cowens were the best players on their championship teams, all those teams had a bunch of guys who were all-star caliber, but nobody outstanding like MJ, Bird, Walton etc. And considering Hayes had absolute shit intangibles, his claim for being the best player makes it less impressive to me.

No he wasn't. You're trying to insinuate that the Bullets were an ensemble team. Hayes finished 3rd, 3rd and 5th in MVP voting and got way more share than his teammates.

[RRR3]

Well, he is 4th All Time in rebounding right above Moses ...
Karl Malone second best scorer ever by this logic.

[tontoz]

Hayes actually averaged 0.6 more ppg on 0.7% higher efficiency in the 1978 playoffs! :pimp:

What a.carry job!

Hayes had a 49%TS in the regular season which is embarrassing for an atg big.

[FultzNationRISE]

Kizzle’s just goin to bat for his boy from H-town.

[tontoz]

No he wasn't. You're trying to insinuate that the Bullets were an ensemble team. Hayes finished 3rd, 3rd and 5th in MVP voting and got way more share than his teammates.


Dandridge was 5th in the MVP voting in 79.

Unseld wes a former MVP and they had 5guys averaging at least 14 opg.

[1987_Lakers]

Well, he is 4th All Time in rebounding right above Moses ...

That's what happens when you play in an era where rebounds are more available and play 43 mpg. Moses had seasons where he played 37-38 mpg and still averaged around 15 rpg. Just look what happened to Hayes when his playing time went down to 37 mpg in 1976, 11 rpg. lol.

[L.Kizzle]

Karl Malone second best scorer ever by this logic.
Never said he was a better rebounder just stating he's above Moses all time.
Obviously stats and accolades have been thrown out the door for this battle. They'll probably be used in the next battle tho lol.

[Im Still Ballin]

What a.carry job!

Hayes had a 49%TS in the regular season which is embarrassing.

I think it's important to compare TS% relative to the league they played in.

That being said, he was inefficient most years, and on average across his whole career. I imagine his TS% is even worse when you consider that he's a big man, and the league TS% is brought down by perimeter shooting guards and forwards.

[L.Kizzle]

That's what happens when you play in an era where rebounds are more available and play 43 mpg. Moses had seasons where he played 37-38 mpg and still averaged around 15 rpg. Just look what happened to Hayes when his playing time went down to 37 mpg in 1976, 11 rpg. lol.
Moses has multiple 40+ minute seasons as well (also seasons under. 50% for a center/Big.
Wasn't just Elvin.

[tontoz]

I think it's important to compare TS% relative to the league they played in.

That being said, he was inefficient most years, and on average across his whole career. I imagine his TS% is even worse when you consider that he's a big man, and the league TS% is brought down by perimeter shooting guards and forwards.

McHale didn't shoot 3s yet he has a career TS of 60.5%, 61.8% in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

McHale didn't shoot 3s yet he has a career TS of 60.5%, 61.8% in the playoffs.
Yep, Hayes was just a brick. McHale actually took 3s occasionally late in his career tho lol

[RRR3]

Btw Hayes was inefficient even for the time he played. The league average TS% in his career was 51.2%, and his career mark was 49.2%

[1987_Lakers]

Moses has multiple 40+ minute seasons as well (also seasons under. 50% for a center/Big.
Wasn't just Elvin.

Moses only played over 40 mpg for two seasons. Hayes played 40+ mpg for 9 damn seasons, most of his prime. Get it together.

[RRR3]

Moses only played over 40 mpg for two seasons. Hayes played 40+ mpg for 9 damn seasons, most of his prime. Get it together.
49.2% career TS lol. The Big E? More like the Big Brick

[dankok8]

From 1969 to 1979 when he was in his prime he averaged 50.6 %TS in the playoffs. League average was 50.7%. He was right at league average.

[1987_Lakers]

From 1969 to 1979 when he was in his prime he averaged 50.6 %TS in the playoffs. League average was 50.7%. He was right at league average.

But he was a big man so as far as big men are concerned he was inefficient.

[dankok8]

By the way peak Hayes from 1969-1975 in the playoffs:

25.7/12.5 on 53.1 %TS (+3.2 rTS) on top of good defense. By the late 70's he did slow down.

[RRR3]

From 1969 to 1979 when he was in his prime he averaged 50.6 %TS in the playoffs. League average was 50.7%. He was right at league average.
Small sample size boosted by him shooting way more efficiently than usual in his first 3 playoffs and that was runs of 6, 5 and 7 games. He was factually inefficient based on all the available data.

[L.Kizzle]

Moses only played over 40 mpg for two seasons. Hayes played 40+ mpg for 9 damn seasons, most of his prime. Get it together.
Moses did it three times but who's counting lol
To be fair they BOTH led the league in minutes twice ...
Even with Elvin playing heavy minutes in the 70s he he'd the league in minutes over twice.
Hondo, Tiny Archibald, McAdoo in the same era were playing more minutes than Elvin Hayes.
It was normal for stars to play 40+ minutes back then, not sure with Elvin is getting singled out for it.

[RRR3]

By the way peak Hayes from 1969-1975 in the playoffs:

25.7/12.5 on 53.1 %TS (+3.2 rTS) on top of good defense. By the late 70's he did slow down.
Lol imagine if you held Hayes to the standards you hold Chris Paul.

[Im Still Ballin]

Btw Hayes was inefficient even for the time he played. The league average TS% in his career was 51.2%, and his career mark was 49.2%
Yup

Also consider the position he played

His TS% was considerably lower than his PF peers at the time:

Larry Kenon: 52.4 TS%
Maurice Lucas: 51.9 TS%
Rudy Tomjanovich: 53.9 TS%
George McGinnis: 50.9 TS%
Truck Robinson: 52.0 TS%
Jamaal Wilkes: 53.3 TS%
Mickey Johnson: 51.7 TS%
Bobby Jones: 60.7 TS%
John Shumate: 57.8 TS%
Sidney Wicks: 50.2 TS%

[97 bulls]

Just stop, Bird in '86 playing with Parish, McHale, & Walton had a higher TRB% than '95 Pippen when he didn't even have Horace or Rodman on the team.

And as I said, Pippen was a perimeter player. Bird wasn't. And Pippens role was different from Birds

[L.Kizzle]

Yup

Also consider the position he played

His TS% was considerably lower than his PF peers at the time:

Larry Kenon: 52.4 TS%
Maurice Lucas: 51.9 TS%
Rudy Tomjanovich: 53.9 TS%
George McGinnis: 50.9 TS%
Truck Robinson: 52.0 TS%
Jamaal Wilkes: 53.3 TS%
Mickey Johnson: 51.7 TS%
Bobby Jones: 60.7 TS%
John Shumate: 57.8 TS%
Sidney Wicks: 50.2 TS%
You're a GM in the 70s. Yall trading Elvin Hayes for any of those guys tho? Hell no you're not or they would have pulled the trigger.

[Im Still Ballin]

You're a GM in the 70s. Yall trading Elvin Hayes for any of those guys tho? Hell no you're not or they would have pulled the trigger.

Strawman.

We're talking about his scoring inefficiency here.

[LBJ]

I can't believe this went to 10 pages. Mchale vs Hayes lol.

[dankok8]

I can't believe this went to 10 pages. Mchale vs Hayes lol.

That's good. We are finally discussing something other than effin Jordan v Lebron.

[L.Kizzle]

That's good. We are finally discussing something other than effin Jordan v Lebron.
Right, a new discussion.

[tontoz]

That's good. We are finally discussing something other than effin Jordan v Lebron.

Yeah I agree. Nobody here is trolling.

[BigShotBob]

Never said he was a better rebounder just stating he's above Moses all time.
Obviously stats and accolades have been thrown out the door for this battle. They'll probably be used in the next battle tho lol.

This is what happens when people who clearly never watched a player play try to retroactively learn about them by box score hunting.

They bring up Big E's "inefficiency" when he mostly took contested turnaround jumpshots. They don't want to use that he's number 4 all time in rebounds to prove that he's comfortably a better rebounder than McHale and they especially have no clue that he was a superior defender than McHale by a comfortable margin but again...they literally never saw him play.

Threads like these just let me know that there are discussions that can't be had with people who are just too young to know anything.

[1987_Lakers]

This is what happens when people who clearly never watched a player play try to retroactively learn about them by box score hunting.

Coming from a guy who said Hayes played with nobody with the Bullets and that he was as good of a rebounder as Moses. Lol.

[BigShotBob]

Coming from a guy who said Hayes played with nobody with the Bullets and that he was as good of a rebounder as Moses. Lol.

Where's the lie? You quoted me speaking of Wes Unseld but you didn't even know that he had knee surgery and was never the same again aside from his activity on the boards. Then you compared Hayes's TRB% to Moses Malone and didn't account for the fact that TRB% didn't account for his first 2 seasons which would have brought it up even more....

Just admit that you've never watched him play young one. It's okay. That's the problem with the youth nowadays. Never want to admit when they're wrong. There are some things that basketball ref can't teach you and footage that youtube can't show you since it's all you have to go by.

[1987_Lakers]

Where's the lie? You quoted me speaking of Wes Unseld but you didn't even know that he had knee surgery and was never the same again aside from his activity on the boards. Then you compared Hayes's TRB% to Moses Malone and didn't account for the fact that TRB% didn't account for his first 2 seasons which would have brought it up even more....

Just admit that you've never watched him play young one. It's okay. That's the problem with the youth nowadays. Never want to admit when they're wrong. There are some things that basketball ref can't teach you and footage that youtube can't show you since it's all you have to go by.

You're a dumbass. Unseld led the league in rebounding and was an all-star immediately after he came back from his injury. He was never even much of a scorer before his injury to begin with.

And TRB% accounted for Hayes' career from the time he was 25 up until he retired. So from age 25-31 he had a TRB% of 16 which is far from great. All you are doing his hiding behind his first 2 seasons just because they didn't have TRB% back then.

But McHale already won this vote. Take the L and move on.

[BigShotBob]

You're a dumbass. Unseld led the league in rebounding and was an all-star immediately after he came back from his injury.

And TRB% accounted for Hayes' career from the time he was 25 up until he retired. So from age 25-31 he had a TRB% of 16 which is far from great. All you are doing his hiding behind his first 2 seasons just because they didn't have TRB% back then.

But McHale already won this vote. Take the L and move on.

Anyone that knows basketball knows that Hayes was a better rebounder and defender than McHale. McHale was superior in the post but Hayes had an unstoppable turnaround jumpshot. If you think that his first 2 seasons wouldn't bump up his TRB% then again...you just literally don't know what you're talking about.

No sweat off my back. All the kids voted for the more familiar name. That's all these all time lists come down to anyways.

[1987_Lakers]

Anyone that knows basketball knows that Hayes was a better rebounder and defender than McHale. McHale was superior in the post but Hayes had an unstoppable turnaround jumpshot. If you think that his first 2 seasons wouldn't bump up his TRB% then again...you just literally don't know what you're talking about.

No sweat off my back. All the kids voted for the more familiar name. That's all these all time lists come down to anyways.

Better rebounder? Sure. Better defender? I don't think so. Both were really good man post defenders, but McHale's ability to guard the perimeter set them apart.

Hayes had such an unstoppable turnaround that he usually shot around 45%. Lol. That is far from unstoppable, McHale was the man dropping 25 points on 60fg%. Now that is more on the unstoppable side, not some shiity, inefficient turnaround shot.

[L.Kizzle]

Can anyone tell me why in McHale only season without Bird he shot 46% from the field?

[Magic Is Magic]

I am requesting to cast a vote for Elvin but I cannot cast the vote. I am under 100 posts is this why? Vote for Elvin Hayes por favor.

[tontoz]

Can anyone tell me why in McHale only season without Bird he shot 46% from the field?

Bird played only 6 games in the 88/89 season and McHale shot 55%.

[RRR3]

This is what happens when people who clearly never watched a player play try to retroactively learn about them by box score hunting.

They bring up Big E's "inefficiency" when he mostly took contested turnaround jumpshots. They don't want to use that he's number 4 all time in rebounds to prove that he's comfortably a better rebounder than McHale and they especially have no clue that he was a superior defender than McHale by a comfortable margin but again...they literally never saw him play.

Threads like these just let me know that there are discussions that can't be had with people who are just too young to know anything.
If he mostly too contested turnaround jumpshots, he was a ****ing idiot. Not exactly making a good case for him by saying that :lol

[L.Kizzle]

Bird played only 6 games in the 88/89 season and McHale shot 55%.
They also were barley over .500 and got swept in the 1st round.

[tontoz]

They also were barley over .500 and got swept in the 1st round.



https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/tenor.gif

[RRR3]

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/g195/tontoz/tenor.gif
:oldlol:

[iamgine]

Kevin Mchale might be massively overrated but he was better than Elvin Hayes. Cmon now lmao.