Wilt's interesting thoughts about Shaq and Kobe.

[coastalmarker99]

Just when you thought the pile atop the Lakers' crumpled body could grow no higher, add about seven feet.

The constellation of criticism surrounding basketball's infuriating underachievers now includes the Big Dipper.

"I don't cheer for any team," Wilt Chamberlain said this week by phone from his Los Angeles-area home. "But if I had to cheer for a team, it would be the Utah Jazz."

Chamberlain, a former Laker who some claim is the greatest player in basketball history, did not initially call to evaluate his former team. At age 62, he is too busy with worldwide businesses and charity work to seek interviews.

He called to respond to a quote in this column last week in which Jerry West, Laker vice president, compared current team jealousies to the seemingly legendary problems between Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor.

Chamberlain said he wanted to set the record straight, that he and Baylor were friends whose "street talk" in the locker room was often misinterpreted as hostility.

But after that, he also set the Lakers straight.

He said their biggest problem is Shaquille O'Neal's inability or refusal to play defense.

He said Kobe Bryant has unfairly been cast as a "whipping boy," when more of the blame should go to Shaq.




''As If Shaq has been chosen as the team leader--and has he been?--then he needs to do it more by example," Chamberlain said. "He needs to get down the court and play defence, instead of cherry-picking by the basket for all those dunks.

"Too often the other team is on offence, and Shaq is not even at half court.

Everybody talks about his points when we should be looking closer at his rebounds and blocked shots and defense."

Chamberlain, who says he watches at least five games a night on television when he is in town, pointed to a play in a recent loss to the Seattle SuperSonics.

"The Sonics passed the ball down the court for a dunk, and where was Shaq?" he said. "Shaq had not even crossed the half-court line, and that was the game. When you rest, you rest on offence, not defence."

Chamberlain, who has feuded with Shaq before, said he did not think the center can lead the team to a title until he makes more of a defensive commitment.

"Shaq is a championship player if he plays a certain way, but he's not playing that way right now," he said. "This is not a personal knock on Shaq. It's just about something he needs to improve."

What is personal, Chamberlain said, is the Lakers' apparent dislike of inconsistent Kobe Bryant.

"Kobe is taking the brunt for every problem they have, he has become their whipping boy, and that's wrong," he said. "A lot of his mistakes are just the exuberance of youth.

"If he makes a sensational play and they win, he's great. But if they lose, then he's a hot dog. That's not fair."

Chamberlain referred to Bryant's game-tying tip-in of a missed free throw in the final moments of an eventual win at Golden State.

"Lemme ask you, was that showboating?" Chamberlain said. "At this point, they should take the bad with the good and stop making their youngest player their fall guy."

[RRR3]

Salty Shaq was better than him.

[coastalmarker99]

Salty Shaq was better than him.

Shaq was never better than Wilt.


Wilt Chamberlain vs Shaquille O'Neal (Best Regular Season Averages):

Points: (50.4 vs 29.7)

Rebounds: (27.2 vs 13.9)

Assists: (8.6 vs 3.8)

Field Goal: (73% vs 67%)

Free Throw: (61% vs 62%)

Wilt Chamberlain vs Shaquille O'Neal (Best Play-Offs Averages*):

Points: (35.0 vs 30.7)

Rebounds: (29.1 vs 15.4)

Assists: (9.0 vs 4.6)

Field Goal: (58% vs 61%)

Free Throw: (64% vs 66%)



Wilt basically comes out on top in every stat against Shaq and I am not even including defensive stats such as BPG and SPG in which Wilt also destroys Shaq in.

[RRR3]

Shaq was never better than Wilt.


Wilt Chamberlain vs Shaquille O'Neal (Best Regular Season Averages):
Points: (50.4 vs 29.7)

Rebounds: (27.2 vs 13.9)

Assists: (8.6 vs 3.8)

Field Goal: (73% vs 67%)

Free Throw: (61% vs 62%)

Wilt Chamberlain vs Shaquille O'Neal (Best Play-Offs Averages*):

Points: (35.0 vs 30.7)

Rebounds: (29.1 vs 15.4)

Assists: (9.0 vs 4.6)

Field Goal: (58% vs 61%)

Free Throw: (64% vs 66%)



Wilt basically comes out on top in every stat against Shaq and i am not even including defensive stats such as BPG in which Wilt destroys Shaq in
1. That’s an extremely disingenuous comparison due to pace and era.
2. Even with the pace and era in Wilt’s favor, compare their playoffs and Shaq wipes the floor with him

[coastalmarker99]

1. That’s an extremely disingenuous comparison due to pace and era.
2. Even with the pace and era in Wilt’s favor, compare their playoffs and Shaq wipes the floor with him


Wilt Chamberlain has the highest TPA or Total Production Average in NBA playoff history.


The TPA is a combination of points, rebounds, and assists.


Chamberlain has a playoff TPA of 51.2 which makes him the only NBA player to have a playoff TPA of 50 or more.






Wilt led the league in scoring in his first seven seasons and led his team to the playoffs in 6 of those 7 seasons.
In 6 post-season appearances, Wilt averaged 32.8 points, 26.6 rebounds, and shot .505 from the field in a league that shot .42.6 in that time span.

No player in NBA history had a post-season averaging 32 points and 26 rebounds, yet Chamberlain averaged that over the course of 6 post-seasons/52 playoff games.


By the time his 7th post-season appearance /1967 playoffs rolled around, he was no longer asked to be the most dominant offensive force in the game.


Philadelphia 76er coach Alex Hannum asked Wilt to focus more on defending the rim and passing the ball.

The Big Dipper followed Hannum's plan to a tee and it resulted in the creation of the NBA's first all-time great team.


In his 7th post-season appearance, Wilt garnered his 1st NBA title and he arguably had the greatest postseason run in NBA history.

(e.g., 15 playoff games 21.7 points, 29.1 rebounds, 9.0 assists, and 9.2 blocked shots) in NBA history.


And his stat line after 7 post-seasons/67 playoff games (e.g., 30.4 points, 27.0 rebounds, and 4.5 assists) was beyond impressive.


No player in NBA history had a post-season averaging 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, yet Wilt averaged that over the course of 7 post-seasons.


Wilt continued this style of play for the remainder of his career and it resulted in a 2nd NBA title and the construction of another all-time GREAT team.


In essence, your claim that Shaq is better in the playoffs is erroneous.

[RRR3]

Wilt Chamberlain has the highest TPA or Total Production Average in NBA playoff history.


The TPA is a combination of points, rebounds, and assists.


Chamberlain has a playoff TPA of 51.2 which makes him the only NBA player to have a playoff TPA of 50 or more.






Wilt led the league in scoring in his first seven seasons and led his team to the playoffs in 6 of those 7 seasons. In 6 post-season appearances, Wilt averaged 32.8 points, 26.6 rebounds, and shot .505 from the field in a league that shot .42.6 in that time span.

No player in NBA history had a post-season averaging 32 points and 26 rebounds, yet Chamberlain averaged that over the course of 6 post-seasons/52 playoff games.


By the time his 7th post-season appearance /1967 playoffs rolled around, he was no longer asked to be the most dominant offensive force in the game.


Philadelphia 76er coach Alex Hannum asked Wilt to focus more on defending the rim and passing the ball. The Big Dipper followed Hannum's plan to a tee and it resulted in the creation of the NBA's first all-time GREAT team.

In his 7th post-season appearance, Wilt garnered his 1st NBA title and he arguably had the greatest post-season run in NBA history.

(e.g., 15 playoff games 21.7 points, 29.1 rebounds, 9.0 assists, and 9.2 blocked shots) in NBA history.


And his stat line after 7 post-seasons/67 playoff games (e.g., 30.4 points, 27.0 rebounds, and 4.5 assists) was beyond impressive.


No player in NBA history had a post-season averaging 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 4.5 assists, yet Wilt averaged that over the course of 7 post-seasons.


Wilt continued this style of play for the remainder of his career and it resulted in a 2nd NBA title and the construction of another all-time GREAT team.


In essence, your claim that Shaq is better in the playoffs is erroneous.
If you can’t admit Shaq was a better playoff performer, you’re a stan.

[coastalmarker99]

If you can’t admit Shaq was a better playoff performer, you’re a stan.



The centers Shaq faced in the 2000 Playoff run: Vlade Divac, Luc Longley, a 36 year old Aryvadonis Sabonis, and Rik Smits.


The centers Wilt faced in the 1967 Playoff run: Jerry Lucas, Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond.



Shaq's series against the best defender of the lot (Sabonis): 26-12-4 on 55% TS. 18-9-5 in the closeout game.




Wilt's series against the best defender of the lot (Russell): 22-32-10-12 on 57% TS.


29-36-13-17 in the closeout game.


3 triple-doubles in the series to along with two quadruple doubles and 20-20 in every game.




All Against Bill Russell. Whom some call the greatest player to ever have lived.







Wilt in that 1967 playoff run faced teams with six top 75 players of all-time



(Russell, Thurmond, Barry, Jones, Oscar, and Hondo).



While Shaq only faced one in the 2000 playoffs in Reggie.

[coastalmarker99]

If you can’t admit Shaq was a better playoff performer, you’re a stan.

Here are Wilt's game seven averages

4- 5 W-L record


24.4 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)

26.7 rpg(Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)

4.1 APG(Regular season career average was 4.4 APG)

62.6 FG%,(Regular season career average was .54.0 FG%)

45.1 FT%(Regular season career average was .51.1 FT%)

57.9 TS%.Regular season career average was 54.9 TS%)



Here are Wilt's numbers in 23 of his elimination games in the postseason...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.



12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)

26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)

3.4 APG (Regular season career average was 4.4 APG)

54.0 FG% (Regular season career average was .54.0 FG%)

BTW, that .54.0 came against post-season NBA's that averaged an FG% of .43.5... or over 10% higher than the post-season league average!

3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

BTW, that 31.1 ppg ranks just behind MJ (31.3 ppg) all-time



Here are Shaq's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.


Game sevens

26.4 PPG (Regular season career average is 23.7 ppg)

10.5 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.9 rpg)

2.5 APG (Regular season career average is 2.5 APG)

2.5 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 BPG)

0.5 SPG (Regular season career average is 0.6 SPG)

FG% 58.8% (Regular season career average is 58.2%)



Elimination games

6 12 W-L record

25.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 23.7 ppg)

10.9 RPG (Regular season career average is 10.9 rpg)

2.0 APG (Regular season career average is 2.5 APG)

1.9 BPG (Regular season career average is 2.3 BPG)

0.6 SPG (Regular season career average is 0.6 SPG)

TS% 57.4% (Regular season career average is 58.6%)

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Well he won 3 with kobe and you won 1 with West.

You had five different double digit scorers on your team and only won 1 game against Celtics in 1964 finals, pathetic. You only had to play two playoff series that year to win the title, what's a matter pal ya busy banging bar chicks and knocking them up without even knowing it... instead of building a winning culture?

I take kawhi for 1 playoff run over both guys

[coastalmarker99]

Well he won 3 with kobe and you won 1 with West.

You had five different double digit scorers on your team and only won 1 game against Celtics in 1964 finals, pathetic. You only had to play two playoff series that year to win the title, what's a matter pal ya busy banging bar chicks and knocking them up without even knowing it... instead of building a winning culture?

I take kawhi for 1 playoff run over both guys

While it might be true that his team lost in five games to the Celtics and their eight HOFers.



Wilt somehow managed to keep his team in most of those games with only one other player (Tom Meschery) shooting above 35 FG% in those finals.


As in those Finals, he finished with 29.2 PPG on a +2.4 rTS% against the greatest defence of all-time



You can take Kawhi.


While I'll take the better defender, better scorer, and better rebounder that can play 48 minutes a game without load management.


Yeah, I'll take the guy who owns 24 playoff records and 4 finals records and was the Finals MVP on two of the top 5 teams in NBA history in the 67 76ers and 72 Lakers.

[Axe]

Shaq never had a losing record in the finals.

[GimmeThat]

besides Wilt's TS% being at .547 in comparison to Shaq's at .586. didn't Wilt played in the 2-point era, was he pretty much the big fella who didn't set a screen for anyone but then never won, so they asked him to play defense.

Shaq's problem with Kobe, was pretty much it seemed that Kobe had problem with his parents, and he seemed to think everyone was out to get him.

[ImKobe]

Spoke nothing but the truth. Shaq half-assed it in transition & on defense A LOT. He had the potential to be the GOAT but didn't take basketball seriously enough. As dominant as he was offensively, he never really consistently showed that on the other end and it got really bad after '02. Wilt is in a tier of his own as an athlete so he could do things even Shaq wasn't capable of with his vertical ability. Wilt wasn't just a dominant scorer, he led the league in rebounding almost every year of his career and probably blocks as well. He didn't half-ass it in the RS like Shaq did.

[RRR3]

Spoke nothing but the truth. Shaq half-assed it in transition & on defense A LOT. He had the potential to be the GOAT but didn't take basketball seriously enough. As dominant as he was offensively, he never really consistently showed that on the other end and it got really bad after '02. Wilt is in a tier of his own as an athlete so he could do things even Shaq wasn't capable of with his vertical ability. Wilt wasn't just a dominant scorer, he led the league in rebounding almost every year of his career and probably blocks as well. He didn't half-ass it in the RS like Shaq did.
A Kobe stan whining about lazy defense lmao :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

A Kobe stan whining about lazy defense lmao :oldlol:

Prime Bean was not lazy on defense, he had to carry the highest scoring load in the modern era with those wack ass 05-07 teams though so he simply wasn't able to play elite D every game and while playing 40+ minutes a game at his position with no great defenders around him. He was 2nd in TS% on the '06 squad and he was taking 27 shots a game lmao. He's tied for most All-Defensive 1st Teams with MJ, KG and GP so give him the respect that he deserves.

[RRR3]

Prime Bean was not lazy on defense, he had to carry the highest scoring load in the modern era with those wack ass 05-07 teams though so he simply wasn't able to play elite D every game and while playing 40+ minutes a game at his position with no great defenders around him. He was 2nd in TS% on the '06 squad and he was taking 27 shots a game lmao. He's tied for most All-Defensive 1st Teams with MJ, KG and GP so give him the respect that he deserves.
He was very lazy on defense when I watched him play. Meltdown.

[dreamshake]

OP straight slaying the tranny lover RRR3 :roll: :roll:

[ImKobe]

He was very lazy on defense when I watched him play. Meltdown.

Well you clearly didn't watch basketball before 2011 so why should I take you seriously? Kobe would pick guys up full court at times and his man defense was always among the best in the league. He wasn't voted 1st Team All-Defensive all those years just off reputation lmao.. He got criticized for his team defense later in his career but he was always a great on-ball defender.

[2much_knowledge]

Salty Shaq was better than him.

Man, when you decide to stan a player, you never give in no matter how many good logical arguments they bring

[eliteballer]

This is from the 1999 season, when the team was a complete mess, before they started winning titles. What relevance does it have to anything.

[dankok8]

Wilt was a crude offensive player and struggled against elite defenses because he relied more on offensive rebounds and easy baskets on the break and wouldn't bully people like Shaq. But defensively Wilt was much better. Overall I personally prefer peak Shaq over peak Wilt. They are kind of different players.

[coastalmarker99]

Spoke nothing but the truth. Shaq half-assed it in transition & on defense A LOT. He had the potential to be the GOAT but didn't take basketball seriously enough. As dominant as he was offensively, he never really consistently showed that on the other end and it got really bad after '02. Wilt is in a tier of his own as an athlete so he could do things even Shaq wasn't capable of with his vertical ability. Wilt wasn't just a dominant scorer, he led the league in rebounding almost every year of his career and probably blocks as well. He didn't half-ass it in the RS like Shaq did.


He was awful at defending the pick and roll in 1997 and 1998 and in 2003 and 2004.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWwLSgQQans



The pistons exposed Shaq's poor conditioning in that series.


As Shaq was often catching his breath on defence.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt was a crude offensive player and struggled against elite defenses because he relied more on offensive rebounds and easy baskets on the break and wouldn't bully people like Shaq. But defensively Wilt was much better. Overall I personally prefer peak Shaq over peak Wilt. They are kind of different players.

I've seen you say Wilt was a crude offensive player who struggled against elite defenses in the playoffs.




But you forget to mention that Wilt had to face a large amount of double and triple teams due to the refs allowing illegal defence to be played.


This made it difficult to get shots in a half-court setting leading to fewer shots in the playoffs.

It's also important to remember Wilt was going up against some of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history each playoff run.

Wilt Regular Season TS%: '62-'68: 54.8%

Wilt Playoffs TS%: '62-'68: 52.8%

That is a 2-percentage drop off versus all-time level defence each year.

A dip in efficiency is expected, but couple that with a decrease in FGA from lack of playmakers--being denied the ball and that explains his drop in points.

It's hardly a drop off at all--but just for the hell of it let's compare him to other greats vs top defences sorted:

Jordan: 1993: vs. Knicks: 32.2 ppg on .522 TS% (-1.4 rTS) (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1997: vs. Heat: 30.2 ppg on .475 TS%(-6.1 rTS) (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1996: vs. Sonics: 27.3 ppg on .538 TS% (-0.4 rTS) (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1989: vs. Cavaliers: 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS (+6.1 rTS) (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1986: vs. Celtics: 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS (+4.3 rTS) (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

LeBron: 2008: vs. Celtics: 26.7 ppg on .480 TS% (-6.0 rTS) (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

2014: vs. Pacers: 22.8 ppg on .637 TS% (+9.6 rTS) (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

2011: vs. Celtics: 28.0 ppg on .553 TS% (+1.2 rTS) (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

2011: vs. Bulls: 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS (+2.8 rTS) (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

2007: vs. Spurs: 22 ppg on .428 %TS (-11.3 rTS) (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)


Kareem: 1970: vs. Knicks: 34.2 ppg on .585 TS% (+7.4 rTS) (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1972: vs. Lakers: 33.7 ppg on .432 %TS (-2.2 rTS) (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1980: vs. 76ers: 33.4 ppg on .578 %TS (+4.7 rTS) (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1980: vs. Sonics: 30.6 ppg on .599 %TS (+6.8 rTS) (-5.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)

1982: vs. Suns: 31.8 ppg on .663 %TS (+13.2 rTS) (-4.5 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)


Wilt: 1964: vs. Celtics 29.2 ppg on .509 TS% (+2.4 rTS) (-10.8 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1965: vs. Celtics 30.1 ppg on .575 TS% (+9.6 rTS) (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1962: vs. Celtics 33.6 ppg on .515 TS% (+3.6 rTS) (-8.5 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1966: vs. Celtics: 28.0 ppg on .500 %TS (+1.3 rTS) (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1960: vs. Celtics: 30.5 ppg on .510 %TS (+4.7 rTS) (-6.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Toughest competition. Still efficient--just less shots.

A big reason he wasn't dropping 40+ points anymore is that he went from playing against awful-to-average defences for most of the reg season to all-time goat level defences for an entire series in the 1st-2nd rounds.

Essentially, it was more of a result of Wilt's teammates and aspects of the era rather than his own lack of abilities.

[Full Court]

"Too often the other team is on offence, and Shaq is not even at half court."



Sounds like 2021 Lebron.

[dankok8]

I've seen you say Wilt was a crude offensive player who struggled against elite defenses in the playoffs.




But you forget to mention that Wilt had to face a large amount of double and triple teams due to the refs allowing illegal defence to be played.


This made it difficult to get shots in a half-court setting leading to fewer shots in the playoffs.

It's also important to remember Wilt was going up against some of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history each playoff run.

Wilt Regular Season TS%: '62-'68: 54.8%

Wilt Playoffs TS%: '62-'68: 52.8%

That is a 2-percentage drop off versus all-time level defence each year.

A dip in efficiency is expected, but couple that with a decrease in FGA from lack of playmakers--being denied the ball and that explains his drop in points.

It's hardly a drop off at all--but just for the hell of it let's compare him to other greats vs top defences sorted:

Jordan: 1993: vs. Knicks: 32.2 ppg on .522 TS% (-1.4 rTS) (-8.3 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1997: vs. Heat: 30.2 ppg on .475 TS%(-6.1 rTS) (-6.1 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1996: vs. Sonics: 27.3 ppg on .538 TS% (-0.4 rTS) (-5.5 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1989: vs. Cavaliers: 39.8 ppg on .598 %TS (+6.1 rTS) (-4.9 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1986: vs. Celtics: 47.3 ppg on .584 %TS (+4.3 rTS) (-4.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

LeBron: 2008: vs. Celtics: 26.7 ppg on .480 TS% (-6.0 rTS) (-8.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

2014: vs. Pacers: 22.8 ppg on .637 TS% (+9.6 rTS) (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

2011: vs. Celtics: 28.0 ppg on .553 TS% (+1.2 rTS) (-7.0 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

2011: vs. Bulls: 25.8 ppg on .569 %TS (+2.8 rTS) (-7.0 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

2007: vs. Spurs: 22 ppg on .428 %TS (-11.3 rTS) (-6.6 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)


Kareem: 1970: vs. Knicks: 34.2 ppg on .585 TS% (+7.4 rTS) (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1972: vs. Lakers: 33.7 ppg on .432 %TS (-2.2 rTS) (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1980: vs. 76ers: 33.4 ppg on .578 %TS (+4.7 rTS) (-5.3 rDRtg, 2nd ranked defense)

1980: vs. Sonics: 30.6 ppg on .599 %TS (+6.8 rTS) (-5.1 rDRtg, 3rd ranked defense)

1982: vs. Suns: 31.8 ppg on .663 %TS (+13.2 rTS) (-4.5 rDRtg, 4th ranked defense)


Wilt: 1964: vs. Celtics 29.2 ppg on .509 TS% (+2.4 rTS) (-10.8 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1965: vs. Celtics 30.1 ppg on .575 TS% (+9.6 rTS) (-7.4 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1962: vs. Celtics 33.6 ppg on .515 TS% (+3.6 rTS) (-8.5 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1966: vs. Celtics: 28.0 ppg on .500 %TS (+1.3 rTS) (-6.6 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

1960: vs. Celtics: 30.5 ppg on .510 %TS (+4.7 rTS) (-6.2 rDRtg, 1st ranked defense)

Toughest competition. Still efficient--just less shots.

A big reason he wasn't dropping 40+ points anymore is that he went from playing against awful-to-average defences for most of the reg season to all-time goat level defences for an entire series in the 1st-2nd rounds.

Essentially, it was more of a result of Wilt's teammates and aspects of the era rather than his own lack of abilities.

I agree. It's just that I watched all of the available Wilt footage and there is a lot these days. He just didn't see like a refined scorer and didn't have the mean streak in his that Shaq had. Wilt's issue in his volume scoring years is also that he didn't pass the ball. He didn't use his scoring to drive his passing and vice versa and as such he didn't raise the level of his teams offensively as much as Shaq did. Even when Wilt put up good numbers his teams often failed to reach their potential on the offensive end. However like I said Wilt was better enough defensively that I do think there is a case to argue Wilt > Shaq. I personally wouldn't but there is a case.

[coastalmarker99]

I agree. It's just that I watched all of the available Wilt footage and there is a lot these days. He just didn't see like a refined scorer and didn't have the mean streak in his that Shaq had. Wilt's issue in his volume scoring years is also that he didn't pass the ball. He didn't use his scoring to drive his passing and vice versa and as such he didn't raise the level of his teams offensively as much as Shaq did. Even when Wilt put up good numbers his teams often failed to reach their potential on the offensive end. However like I said Wilt was better enough defensively that I do think there is a case to argue Wilt > Shaq. I personally wouldn't but there is a case.

I don't find it shocking how the Warriors’ offensive rating relative to the league was 100% positively correlated with Wilt taking more shots during his six years there.

Wilt had no choice but to average 50 PPG or 45 PPG to keep his teams from losing.

As Every single shot, you took from him and gave to one of his teammates would have gone to a much lower percentage shooter.

By year, Wilt's % vs. his best shooting 10+ppg Warriors teammate's FG%

59-60 Wilt .46.1 vs. Gola .43.3

60-61 Wilt .50.9 vs. Gola .44.7

61-62 Wilt .50.6 vs. Attles .47.4

62-63 Wilt .52.8 vs. Attles .47.8

63-64 Wilt .52.4 vs. Meschery .45.8

64-65 Wilt .49.9 vs. Neumann .45.0


Here are some stats about how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.


So far in 5.5 games as ( I haven’t completely watched 1 game)


I have with Wilt 66 possessions, 60 FGA, 34 FGM, 6 turnovers



And I have without Wilt 86 possessions 75 FGA, 22 FGM, 11 turnovers.


It is a small sample size so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.



So far in my data.


I have found without Wilt In those 5.5 games



That the Warriors were shooting 29.3% from the floor as an entire team.

[GimmeThat]

OP's the reason Gays' have kids, and downright proud about it. OP might say he/her is here to look for another opinion, but deep down, he/her is extremely upset when successful Gays' choose not to have kids, because OP prefers to tell others we need more chance, chance, and chance, while there's absolutely no desire whatsover in learning how the brain works.

"My way has proven success, now I'm just gonna be louder. I'll just go in "well I did my job, and don't care if I die now" when people bring up climate change." "Oh, great, sure hope you're just as satisfied as your family off-springs have a shorter life expectancy now!"

[coastalmarker99]

OP's the reason Gays' have kids, and downright proud about it. OP might say he/her is here to look for another opinion, but deep down, he/her is extremely upset when successful Gays' choose not to have kids, because OP prefers to tell others we need more chance, chance, and chance, while there's absolutely no desire whatsover in learning how the brain works.

"My way has proven success, now I'm just gonna be louder. I'll just go in "well I did my job, and don't care if I die now" when people bring up climate change." "Oh, great, sure hope you're just as satisfied as your family off-springs have a shorter life expectancy now!"

:wtf:

[Elosha]

OP's the reason Gays' have kids, and downright proud about it. OP might say he/her is here to look for another opinion, but deep down, he/her is extremely upset when successful Gays' choose not to have kids, because OP prefers to tell others we need more chance, chance, and chance, while there's absolutely no desire whatsover in learning how the brain works.

"My way has proven success, now I'm just gonna be louder. I'll just go in "well I did my job, and don't care if I die now" when people bring up climate change." "Oh, great, sure hope you're just as satisfied as your family off-springs have a shorter life expectancy now!"

:facepalm WTH are you talking about?

[ImKobe]

He was awful at defending the pick and roll in 1997 and 1998 and in 2003 and 2004.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWwLSgQQans



The pistons exposed Shaq's poor conditioning in that series.


As Shaq was often catching his breath on defence.

Yeah, and he wasn't the best player in the series, that would go to Chauncey, who burned the Lakers with the P&R lol. He shot almost 70%TS in that series, that's DISGUSTING for 2004, especially for a PG.

[GimmeThat]

:facepalm WTH are you talking about?

most people call it science. where the "eye test" need not apply.

[aj1987]

Prime Bean was not lazy on defense, he had to carry the highest scoring load in the modern era with those wack ass 05-07 teams though so he simply wasn't able to play elite D every game and while playing 40+ minutes a game at his position with no great defenders around him. He was 2nd in TS% on the '06 squad and he was taking 27 shots a game lmao. He's tied for most All-Defensive 1st Teams with MJ, KG and GP so give him the respect that he deserves.

You literally contradicted yourself. He wasn't a legit top level defender from '05-'07 and definitely didn't deserve an All-NBA selection from '09-'12. FFS, the dude was voted into the first team in '11, when Wade was a significantly better defender than him, and Kobe was mediocre. There's a reason why literally single basic to advanced metric points to him being a massively overrated defender.

This is what Phil had to say about Kobe:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground

That was in 2004, BTW. :roll:


As for Ilt vs Shaq, Shaq would eat him alive. It's not even close.

From some of my earlier posts:

Wilt played with 3 HOF'ers a top 12 player and another top ~20 player and choked HARD in the PO's. One player's numbers went up in the RS and the Finals, while the other players' nose dived.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

"The Big Dipper" aptly named.


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chokerlain's ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chokerlain's ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chokerlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


Even more damning, Chamberlain’s selfless and winning ways proved an aberration.
The satisfaction of victory remained less rewarding than the accumulation of statistics. In
1967-1968 the 76ers cruised to the best regular season record, and they should have been
a budding dynasty. But tensions surfaced, as they always did around Chamberlain. For
one, he resolved to lead the NBA in assists—no center had ever done that, and he assumed
it would reinforce his greatness. So he stopped attacking the basket, favored passes to
quick shooters like Walker and Cunningham, and passed up easy shots if a teammate was
open. He had managed to make unselfishness selfish. Lynch also provides a revealing tale
after interviewing journalist George Kiseda. Chafing at Hannum’s lecture after a loss,
Chamberlain interrupted the coach: “I think there are more important things than win-
ning. I think you have to learn how to lose, too” (p. 211). Chamberlain absorbed that
self-imposed lesson once again. In the 1968 playoffs, the 76ers wasted a 3-1 series lead
against the Celtics. Boston then won another title, the first with Russell as player-coach.
The same old story: Russell lifted his team to new heights, Chamberlain faltered when it
mattered most.

Facts:
1. Dude played for his stats.
2. He didn't care about winning.
3. GOAT statpadder.
4. Quit playing defense when he was in foul trouble.
etc. etc..

A loser by any measure.

[ImKobe]

You literally contradicted yourself. He wasn't a legit top level defender from '05-'07 and definitely didn't deserve an All-NBA selection from '09-'12. FFS, the dude was voted into the first team in '11, when Wade was a significantly better defender than him, and Kobe was mediocre. There's a reason why literally single basic to advanced metric points to him being a massively overrated defender.

This is what Phil had to say about Kobe:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground

That was in 2004, BTW. :roll:


As for Ilt vs Shaq, Shaq would eat him alive. It's not even close.

From some of my earlier posts:

Wilt played with 3 HOF'ers a top 12 player and another top ~20 player and choked HARD in the PO's. One player's numbers went up in the RS and the Finals, while the other players' nose dived.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

"The Big Dipper" aptly named.


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chokerlain's ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chokerlain's ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chokerlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5



Facts:
1. Dude played for his stats.
2. He didn't care about winning.
3. GOAT statpadder.
4. Quit playing defense when he was in foul trouble.
etc. etc..

A loser by any measure.

Phil had no right to shit on Kobe after the '04 season. He played hurt all year so that's a poor one to use against him when he had shoulder & knee surgeries and re-injured his shoulder that season.

[dankok8]

I don't find it shocking how the Warriors’ offensive rating relative to the league was 100% positively correlated with Wilt taking more shots during his six years there.

Wilt had no choice but to average 50 PPG or 45 PPG to keep his teams from losing.

As Every single shot, you took from him and gave to one of his teammates would have gone to a much lower percentage shooter.

By year, Wilt's % vs. his best shooting 10+ppg Warriors teammate's FG%

59-60 Wilt .46.1 vs. Gola .43.3

60-61 Wilt .50.9 vs. Gola .44.7

61-62 Wilt .50.6 vs. Attles .47.4

62-63 Wilt .52.8 vs. Attles .47.8

63-64 Wilt .52.4 vs. Meschery .45.8

64-65 Wilt .49.9 vs. Neumann .45.0


Here are some stats about how bad the Warriors offence was when they didn’t involve Wilt.


So far in 5.5 games as ( I haven’t completely watched 1 game)


I have with Wilt 66 possessions, 60 FGA, 34 FGM, 6 turnovers



And I have without Wilt 86 possessions 75 FGA, 22 FGM, 11 turnovers.


It is a small sample size so the more I get to add the more accurate it will be.



So far in my data.


I have found without Wilt In those 5.5 games



That the Warriors were shooting 29.3% from the floor as an entire team.

Wilt didn't need to shoot that much. An equal opportunity offense giving guys like Arizin, Gola, Meschery and Rodgers more shots actually made their offense better. This is clear in the 1962 playoffs where Wilt drastically reduced his scoring attempts and focused on defense and the Warriors came within a hair of beating the Celtics. I know it's counterintuitive because Wilt's scoring efficiency was better than that of his teammates but it is how it is. When a team has one scoring threat the other team will load up on him and that team becomes easy to defend. We see the same conundrum with Michael Jordan. When Pippen who was not an efficient scorer started putting up more and more shots the Bulls actually got better!

The Warriors' offenses were generally putrid every year during Wilt's time there. These are their rORtg:

1960: -2.4
1961: -0.9
1962: +0.9
1963: -0.7
1964: -1.6
1965: -5.0 (before Wilt got traded)

1962 was their best year when Wilt averaged 50 ppg but +0.9 rORtg still isn't very good, 4th out of 9 teams and barely above league average. In 1963 when he averaged 45 ppg on even better efficiency they were below league average. The trend you're talking about isn't very convincing.

When Wilt shot less his teams did better. Not just because of offense but because Wilt had more energy to dominate on defense when he shot less. And his impact on defense was monstrous. In fact outside of Russell he might have had the biggest defensive impact ever. It's a major mistake of his coaches not to use him as an offensively souped-up version of Russell which he was in 1967, 1968 and to a lesser extent 1972 for his entire career.

[coastalmarker99]

You literally contradicted yourself. He wasn't a legit top level defender from '05-'07 and definitely didn't deserve an All-NBA selection from '09-'12. FFS, the dude was voted into the first team in '11, when Wade was a significantly better defender than him, and Kobe was mediocre. There's a reason why literally single basic to advanced metric points to him being a massively overrated defender.

This is what Phil had to say about Kobe:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground

That was in 2004, BTW. :roll:


As for Ilt vs Shaq, Shaq would eat him alive. It's not even close.

From some of my earlier posts:

Wilt played with 3 HOF'ers a top 12 player and another top ~20 player and choked HARD in the PO's. One player's numbers went up in the RS and the Finals, while the other players' nose dived.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

"The Big Dipper" aptly named.


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chokerlain's ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chokerlain's ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chokerlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5



Facts:
1. Dude played for his stats.
2. He didn't care about winning.
3. GOAT statpadder.
4. Quit playing defense when he was in foul trouble.
etc. etc..

A loser by any measure.


Wilt went against two of Syracuse, St. Louis, or Boston virtually every single year in the playoffs. Of course he wasn't going to average as much.

Here's his differences from the regular season to the playoffs while he was still scoring the ball. You'll realize he almost always took way less shots and free throws. Had he had the same amount of attempts, he would have upped his scoring averages in the playoffs despite going up against the best defensive teams and arguably the best defender ever in Russell in 8 playoff series.

'59-'60: -4 PPG on 4 less FGA and 2 less FTA, +3 FG%, -1 RPG (Lost to Boston in 6)

'60'-'61: -1 PPG, -3 FG%, -4 RPG (Lost to Syracuse in 3 by a total of 12 points)

'61-'62: -15 PPG on 10 less FGA/G and 5 less FTA/G, -3 FG%, +1 RPG (Lost to Boston in G7 by 2)

'63-'64: -2 PPG on 2 less FGA/G and 1 less FTA/G, +2 FG%, +3 RPG (Lost to Boston in 5)

'64-'65: -5 PPG on 7 less FGA/G, +2 FG%, +5 RPG (Lost to Boston in G7 by 1)

'65-'66: -5 PPG on 3 less FGA/G, -3 FG%, +6 RPG (Lost to Boston in 5)

'66-'67: -3 PPG on 4 less FTA/G, -10 FG%, +5 RPG, +2 APG (averaged 21/32/10 and beat Boston finally)

'67-'68: -1 PPG, -6 FG%, +1 RPG, -2 APG (Lost to Boston in G7 by 4)

'68-'69: -6 PPG on 4 less FGA/G and 2 less FTA/G, +3 RPG (Lost to Boston in G7 by 2)

'69-'70: -5 PPG on 3 less FGA/G and 2 less FTA/G, +4 RPG (Lost to New York in G7)

[coastalmarker99]

You literally contradicted yourself. He wasn't a legit top level defender from '05-'07 and definitely didn't deserve an All-NBA selection from '09-'12. FFS, the dude was voted into the first team in '11, when Wade was a significantly better defender than him, and Kobe was mediocre. There's a reason why literally single basic to advanced metric points to him being a massively overrated defender.

This is what Phil had to say about Kobe:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground

That was in 2004, BTW. :roll:


As for Ilt vs Shaq, Shaq would eat him alive. It's not even close.

From some of my earlier posts:

Wilt played with 3 HOF'ers a top 12 player and another top ~20 player and choked HARD in the PO's. One player's numbers went up in the RS and the Finals, while the other players' nose dived.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

"The Big Dipper" aptly named.


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chokerlain's ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chokerlain's ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chokerlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5



Facts:
1. Dude played for his stats.
2. He didn't care about winning.
3. GOAT statpadder.
4. Quit playing defense when he was in foul trouble.
etc. etc..

A loser by any measure.

Wilt's scoring dropped in the postseason because he played in his prime over half of his games against teams with -4.0 rDRtg.

That's an absurd number of games played against absolutely elite defences.


That's more than any superstar center ever Yet he still put up elite numbers:


47.5 mpg, 28.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 28.1 ppg on 50.8% FG, 50.6% FT, 52.2% TS (+3.84 rTS%)


Compare this to other greats:


Kareem: 44.1 mpg, 15.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 33.3 ppg on 54.5% FG, 72.2% FT, 56.9% TS (+5.28 rTS%)


Shaq: 41.1 mpg, 13.3 rpg, 2.9 apg, 3.3 tov, 26.9 ppg on 55.8% FG, 53.5% FT and 56.9% TS (+4.59% rTS)


Hakeem: 42.0 mpg, 10.2 rpg, 3.1 apg, 3.4 tov, 24.1 ppg on 48.9% FG, 75.2% FT and 53.9% TS (+0.30% rTS)


Duncan: 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)


Kareem played 26% of his playoffs games against elite defenses in his prime, Shaq played 31%, Hakeem 15%, Duncan 17%.

Wilt? 52% and he looks better here than Hakeem and Duncan, only worse than two GOAT offensive centers in Kareem and Shaq (and not by much).

He's a better rebounder and defender than Kareem and Shaq though, so overall I'm not even sure he's a worse playoffs performer than them.

[coastalmarker99]

You literally contradicted yourself. He wasn't a legit top level defender from '05-'07 and definitely didn't deserve an All-NBA selection from '09-'12. FFS, the dude was voted into the first team in '11, when Wade was a significantly better defender than him, and Kobe was mediocre. There's a reason why literally single basic to advanced metric points to him being a massively overrated defender.

This is what Phil had to say about Kobe:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground

That was in 2004, BTW. :roll:


As for Ilt vs Shaq, Shaq would eat him alive. It's not even close.

From some of my earlier posts:

Wilt played with 3 HOF'ers a top 12 player and another top ~20 player and choked HARD in the PO's. One player's numbers went up in the RS and the Finals, while the other players' nose dived.

Shaq:

23.7 PPG in the RS
24.3 PPG in the PO's
29 PPG in the Finals

4/5 in the Finals.

Wilt:

30 PPG in the RS
22 PPG in the PO's
19 PPG in the Finals

2/6 in the Finals.

"The Big Dipper" aptly named.


.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chokerlain's ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chokerlain's ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chokerlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Default NBA choking rating

Advanced Formula: Losses with HCA + playoff ppg drop + finals ppg drop + playoff rpg drop + finals rpg drop + playoff apg drop + finals apg drop + playoff fg% drop + finals fg% drop + playoff ft% drop + finals ft% drop - rings

Wilt Chamberlain: 5 + (30.1-22.5) + (30.1-18.6) + (22.9-24.9) + (22.9-24.6) + (4.4-4.2) + (4.4-3.8) + (54.0-52.2) + (54.0-55.9) + (51.1-46.5) + (51.1-37.5) - 2 = 37.3

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5



Facts:
1. Dude played for his stats.
2. He didn't care about winning.
3. GOAT statpadder.
4. Quit playing defense when he was in foul trouble.
etc. etc..

A loser by any measure.

did you know that in the 143 Russell-Wilt h2h's, that Chamberlain had a total of 19 games with 4+ fouls?

Or that his teams went 9-10 in those games (which was actually a better w-l percentage than overall)?

Or that Wilt committed five fouls in only six of those games (and his teams went 2-4)?

Meanwhile, Russell had 71 games against Wilt of 4+ fouls, with 47games of 5+, and six in which he fouled out?

Furthermore, over the course of Wilt's entire regular-season career, he averaged 2.0 PFs per game, in a career in which he averaged 45.8 mpg.

And, in his 160 post-season games, in which he averaged a mind-boggling 47.2 mpg, he was committing 2.5 PFs per game.

The reality was, Chamberlain was very seldom even sniffing foul trouble.

And for the record, I have challenged people to provide proof of Wilt's foul trouble costing his team's games...and no one has unearthed even one game.

In an OT game four of the '72 Finals, Chamberlain, burdened with five fouls, blocked two key shots down the stretch to preserve the win.

And let's get real here...if a player gets in foul trouble, he should play a softer defence. I could never understand the criticism that Chamberlain received, when in reality, he was probably the best player in history at limiting his fouls, and in the rare instances when he was in foul trouble, playing smart enough to avoid fouling out.


Also Here's something else nobody considers. Or, at least, has mentioned, here....

Wilt got played harder, and more brutally than anyone.

Wilt has the most fouls against, per game, in NBA history.


Free Throws Attempted Per Game, Career, Including Playoffs:

Wilt: 11.2

Pettit: 10.3

Shaq: 9.5

West: 9.5

Mikan: 9.1

Embiid: 9.1

Malone: 8.9

Iverson: 8.9

and yet he has the fewest fouls committed also, all time, among all Centers with 800 games played. Somehow. Impossible, but true..

Fouls x MP, Career, NBA History, All Centers, 800 Games Played:
Wilt: 1.6

Russell: 2.3

Malone: 2.5

Thurmond: 2.6

Unseld: 2.8

Kareem: 2.9

Robinson: 3.0

Bellamy: 3.3

Lanier: 3.4

Parish: 3.5

Ewing: 3.6

Shaq: 3.6

Hakeem: 3.6

Playoffs, Min 100 Games Played:
Wilt: 2.0
Russell: 2.6
Unseld: 2.7
Mutumbo: 3.0
Kareem: 3.2
Shaq: 3.4
Hakeem: 3.5
Ewing: 3.5
Robinson: 3.6
Parish: 3.6
Divac: 4.2
Sikma: 4.6

[aj1987]

Phil had no right to shit on Kobe after the '04 season. He played hurt all year so that's a poor one to use against him when he had shoulder & knee surgeries and re-injured his shoulder that season.

He wasn't talking about the '04 season in particular. Try reading. I know it hurts your tiny mushed brain, but try it:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.


Lazeruss, do you really want to do this again? Ilt was a colossal choker. 30 in the RS, 22 in the PO's, and 19 in the Finals is all that needs to be said. Pathetic.

[Axe]

Phil had no right to shit on Kobe after the '04 season. He played hurt all year so that's a poor one to use against him when he had shoulder & knee surgeries and re-injured his shoulder that season.
He may be hurt but that doesn't give him the right to be an undisciplined spoiled brat. That's why he made a book about him, about how immature he was back then and even shaq, along with other of his former teammates would confess about this. Sort of like being a cancer to the team but because he was so popular to the young fans, the franchise valued him over the others. That's why he never got penalized for being like that.

[coastalmarker99]

He wasn't talking about the '04 season in particular. Try reading. I know it hurts your tiny mushed brain, but try it:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.


Lazeruss, do you really want to do this again? Ilt was a colossal choker. 30 in the RS, 22 in the PO's, and 19 in the Finals is all that needs to be said. Pathetic.

Wilt had only one finals series in which he was looking to score.


He attempted 24 shots per game in the 1964 finals as opposed to only 11.7 for the rest of his NBA finals career (30 additional games).


This has led people like you to see his finals ppg and conclude he must have not been as capable as his 30ppg regular-season career number indicates but it’s actually because his role changed so much and he played more finals in a fewer shot attempt role.

[lakerstekkenn]

1. That’s an extremely disingenuous comparison due to pace and era.
2. Even with the pace and era in Wilt’s favor, compare their playoffs and Shaq wipes the floor with him

Prime Shaq couldn't even handle an older Hakeem what would prime Wilt do to Shaq?

[aj1987]

Wilt had only one finals series in which he was looking to score.


He attempted 24 shots per game in the 1964 finals as opposed to only 11.7 for the rest of his NBA finals career (30 additional games).


This has led people like you to see his finals ppg and conclude he must have not been as capable as his 30ppg regular-season career number indicates but it’s actually because his role changed so much and he played more finals in a fewer shot attempt role.

Dude was scared of the spotlight and shrinked. I've proved it time and time again, with his reduction in not PPG, FT%, and FG%. Stop being delusional, Lazeruss.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt didn't need to shoot that much. An equal opportunity offense giving guys like Arizin, Gola, Meschery and Rodgers more shots actually made their offense better. This is clear in the 1962 playoffs where Wilt drastically reduced his scoring attempts and focused on defense and the Warriors came within a hair of beating the Celtics. I know it's counterintuitive because Wilt's scoring efficiency was better than that of his teammates but it is how it is. When a team has one scoring threat the other team will load up on him and that team becomes easy to defend. We see the same conundrum with Michael Jordan. When Pippen who was not an efficient scorer started putting up more and more shots the Bulls actually got better!

The Warriors' offenses were generally putrid every year during Wilt's time there. These are their rORtg:

1960: -2.4
1961: -0.9
1962: +0.9
1963: -0.7
1964: -1.6
1965: -5.0 (before Wilt got traded)

1962 was their best year when Wilt averaged 50 ppg but +0.9 rORtg still isn't very good, 4th out of 9 teams and barely above league average. In 1963 when he averaged 45 ppg on even better efficiency they were below league average. The trend you're talking about isn't very convincing.

When Wilt shot less his teams did better. Not just because of offense but because Wilt had more energy to dominate on defense when he shot less. And his impact on defense was monstrous. In fact outside of Russell he might have had the biggest defensive impact ever. It's a major mistake of his coaches not to use him as an offensively souped-up version of Russell which he was in 1967, 1968 and to a lesser extent 1972 for his entire career.

Statistics about Wilt's team's offences should be used with context, so I will dive a little deeper here:

It's important to not just look at Wilt but the teammates around him, especially in an era like the 60s where usage was shared more among the starters.
Besides Wilt joining the team in 1960, let's take a look at who else was on this roster in '60:

Woody Sauldsberry regressed from a 83 TS+ to a 75 TS+. He played fewer minutes but was significantly worse.

This season was the 3rd worst NBA history by TS Added (unsurprisingly, Woody also holds the worst in history for his '61 season.) Now, why can we not attribute his awful play to Wilt?

Well, he was awful before Wilt got there and was awful after him. He was a poor scorer being given quite a bit of shots in an antiquated era for offence.

Guy Rodgers received 1000 more minutes and became a starter. I know some might claim Guy Rodgers was a plus--but he was a massive negative.

Rodgers has the worst career TS Added in NBA history, he was a very poor offensive player that took way too many shots.

Regardless of his passing ability, Guy Rodgers was so far below the rest of the league in TS Added that he was no doubt hurting the spacing and offensive ability of the team.

Paul Arizin was older this season and on the downturn of his career, he regressed from his '59 season which hurt the offensive capabilities of the team. The next year he improved but was never back at his prime levels.

Secondly, this leads me to believe Wilt's usage isn't as high as people seem to believe as 1960's offences were primarily not being run through bigs but rather guards.

In fact, A good chunk of Wilt's shots were coming off missed shots from his teammates, rather than getting the ball in the halfcourt and the offence functioning around him as we might see in later eras.

The '64 Finals Warriors film is a good example of this, where players are passing the ball around and jacking up shots rather than running it through Wilt in the post like the Lakers did with Shaq.

Also - for all this talk about how bad volume shooting Wilt was for his team's offences it's quite ironic that the best Warriors offence Wilt played in was when he took the most shots and averaged 50 points a game.

The 1962 Warriors were a good offensive team, despite not having that good offensive roster - outside of old Arizin and rookie Meschery, they were bad period.

And for the record, nobody questions MJ offensive impact when he led mediocre team offences in 1987 and 1988.

He gets excuses because of a weak team and poor team structure. Why can't we use the same criteria for Wilt?

To me, personally, The Warriors being good offensively despite having a terrible offensive system and an incredibly weak offensive roster is a big plus for Wilt, not a minus.

Also, you have to remember that an ORTG of +0.9 above average in 1962 for a team was actually good.

People keep calling their offence this season when Wilt averaged 50 points a game "about average"

but in reality, they were only 0.5 below the Lakers for 3rd and 0.7 below the Hawks for 2nd.

Both the Lakers and Hawks had "above average" offences that season yet were top 3.

It was harder to score efficiently in this era due to the rules limiting offence and the strong defensive presence of the Celtics.

I would also like to point out that the Warriors offence was probably even better than what their ORTG says because

1. Tom Gola missed 20 games and 2. They had to play the Celtics three more times than Western teams such as the Lakers and Hawks.

Michael Jordan had above average offensive teams early on in his career, and it's no surprise--his teammates were quite poor.

Wilt's were even worse. And he played in an era that didn't fully utilize superstars and instead spread the shots around more.

[dankok8]

Statistics about Wilt's team's offences should be used with context, so I will dive a little deeper here:

It's important to not just look at Wilt but the teammates around him, especially in an era like the 60s where usage was shared more among the starters.
Besides Wilt joining the team in 1960, let's take a look at who else was on this roster in '60:

Woody Sauldsberry regressed from a 83 TS+ to a 75 TS+. He played fewer minutes but was significantly worse.

This season was the 3rd worst NBA history by TS Added (unsurprisingly, Woody also holds the worst in history for his '61 season.) Now, why can we not attribute his awful play to Wilt?

Well, he was awful before Wilt got there and was awful after him. He was a poor scorer being given quite a bit of shots in an antiquated era for offence.

Guy Rodgers received 1000 more minutes and became a starter. I know some might claim Guy Rodgers was a plus--but he was a massive negative.

Rodgers has the worst career TS Added in NBA history, he was a very poor offensive player that took way too many shots.

Regardless of his passing ability, Guy Rodgers was so far below the rest of the league in TS Added that he was no doubt hurting the spacing and offensive ability of the team.

Paul Arizin was older this season and on the downturn of his career, he regressed from his '59 season which hurt the offensive capabilities of the team. The next year he improved but was never back at his prime levels.

Secondly, this leads me to believe Wilt's usage isn't as high as people seem to believe as 1960's offences were primarily not being run through bigs but rather guards.

In fact, A good chunk of Wilt's shots were coming off missed shots from his teammates, rather than getting the ball in the halfcourt and the offence functioning around him as we might see in later eras.

The '64 Finals Warriors film is a good example of this, where players are passing the ball around and jacking up shots rather than running it through Wilt in the post like the Lakers did with Shaq.

Also - for all this talk about how bad volume shooting Wilt was for his team's offences it's quite ironic that the best Warriors offence Wilt played in was when he took the most shots and averaged 50 points a game.

The 1962 Warriors were a good offensive team, despite not having that good offensive roster - outside of old Arizin and rookie Meschery, they were bad period.

And for the record, nobody questions MJ offensive impact when he led mediocre team offences in 1987 and 1988.

He gets excuses because of a weak team and poor team structure. Why can't we use the same criteria for Wilt?

To me, personally, The Warriors being good offensively despite having a terrible offensive system and an incredibly weak offensive roster is a big plus for Wilt, not a minus.

Also, you have to remember that an ORTG of +0.9 above average in 1962 for a team was actually good.

People keep calling their offence this season when Wilt averaged 50 points a game "about average"

but in reality, they were only 0.5 below the Lakers for 3rd and 0.7 below the Hawks for 2nd.

Both the Lakers and Hawks had "above average" offences that season yet were top 3.

It was harder to score efficiently in this era due to the rules limiting offence and the strong defensive presence of the Celtics.

I would also like to point out that the Warriors offence was probably even better than what their ORTG says because

1. Tom Gola missed 20 games and 2. They had to play the Celtics three more times than Western teams such as the Lakers and Hawks.

Michael Jordan had above average offensive teams early on in his career, and it's no surprise--his teammates were quite poor.

Wilt's were even worse. And he played in an era that didn't fully utilize superstars and instead spread the shots around more.

Wilt's teammates weren't bad offensively though. Arizin and Gola were all-stars every year form 1960-1962. I'll throw you a bone and admit that Gola was a bad playoff performer but Arizin was very dependable giving 22-26 ppg on above league average efficiency. Guy Rodgers was also a tremendous passer who could run the offense. Al Attles could play mean defense. Meschery could also play ball. There's no way that team could have taken the Celtics to a close 7 game series if they sucked.

Oscar's Royals were also in the East and played the Celtics a lot and had the best ORtg in the league by far and he probably had worse teammates than Wilt. Wilt just wasn't a great offensive anchor as a volume scorer. It's very hard to refute. 1962 was a bit better than other seasons but it wasn't impressive. Those aren't the kind of results you win multiple championships with which is what you expect of a player as great as Wilt. You expect Wilt to lead historic offenses... which he did in 1967. When he shot less, passed more and had more energy for defense.

Again I'm not ripping on Wilt. He was simply used incorrectly. I'm not blaming him. His coaches deserve a lot of the blame.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt's teammates weren't bad offensively though. Arizin and Gola were all-stars every year form 1960-1962. I'll throw you a bone and admit that Gola was a bad playoff performer but Arizin was very dependable giving 22-26 ppg on above league average efficiency. Guy Rodgers was also a tremendous passer who could run the offense. Al Attles could play mean defense. Meschery could also play ball. There's no way that team could have taken the Celtics to a close 7 game series if they sucked.

Oscar's Royals were also in the East and played the Celtics a lot and had the best ORtg in the league by far and he probably had worse teammates than Wilt. Wilt just wasn't a great offensive anchor as a volume scorer. It's very hard to refute. 1962 was a bit better than other seasons but it wasn't impressive. Those aren't the kind of results you win multiple championships with which is what you expect of a player as great as Wilt. You expect Wilt to lead historic offenses... which he did in 1967. When he shot less, passed more and had more energy for defense.

Again I'm not ripping on Wilt. He was simply used incorrectly. I'm not blaming him. His coaches deserve a lot of the blame.

It's interesting to note that Wilt had 8 coaches during the course of his 14-year career.

4 had never coached in NBA.

1 had coached for 1.5 yrs in NBA.

1 had coached for 1 yr.

And yet he still made 2 finals with these newbies, 2x losing in 7.


And when Wilt actually had 2 experienced coaches coaching him in Hannum and Sharman.

He won rings with both and made 4 Finals in 6 yrs with them and it very well easily could have been 5 finals in six years if not for injuries in 1968.


What this leads me to believe is that if Wilt had been used correctly from the start of his career by that his coaches that he would have enjoyed a lot more team success.



As when a 35 and 36-year-old Wilt who was past his prime played two seasons in 72 and 73 under Sharman who basically copied Red's system and used Wilt as Red did with Russell.


The Lakers over that two-year span ended up with 150 wins and 46 losses when you combine both the regular season and playoffs.

[ImKobe]

He wasn't talking about the '04 season in particular. Try reading. I know it hurts your tiny mushed brain, but try it:

Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.


Lazeruss, do you really want to do this again? Ilt was a colossal choker. 30 in the RS, 22 in the PO's, and 19 in the Finals is all that needs to be said. Pathetic.

He said "recent years", which would imply the '04 season as well, when, you know, he was injured. Shaq also opted to get surgery going into the '03 season so Kobe was tasked to do everything that year and carried them offensively all year while also playing elite D. He had the 2nd best DRTG & DBPM on the team that year and the highest DWS and averaged ~7 rebounds a game as a guard. You can't tell me he didn't play hard on defense. He gambled for steals at times but so did every other player in the league. 2004 is when his defense really took a hit, so I'd have to assume that's what Phil was referring to, because if you compare that year to 00-03 Kobe it's clear he was a shell of himself on both ends, you really can't say that about him in previous seasons. '03 is arguably his best season overall as a defensive player. The team was trash on D overall but him and Shaq were still great.

[GimmeThat]

just remember, in Phil's world, sound, fundamental defense is about yelling and getting back at your teammates and making the proper switches. accountabilities for individuals basketball IQ's/athleticism didn't exist, because Phil needed to create a world where the players were dependent on him.