Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #47

[dankok8]

List

#1 - Michael Jordan
#2 - Lebron James
#3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#4 - Bill Russell
#5 - Wilt Chamberlain
#6 - Magic Johnson
#7 - Shaquille O'Neal
#8 - Tim Duncan
#9 - Larry Bird
#10 - Hakeem Olajuwon
#11 - Kobe Bryant
#12 - Stephen Curry
#13 - Oscar Robertson
#14 - Jerry West
#15 - Moses Malone
#16 - Julius Erving
#17 - Kevin Durant
#18 - Kevin Garnett
#19 - Karl Malone
#20 - Dirk Nowitzki
#21 - Charles Barkley
#22 - David Robinson
#23 - Dwyane Wade
#24 - Elgin Baylor
#25 - Scottie Pippen
#26 - Giannis Antetokounmpo
#27 - John Havlicek
#28 - Isiah Thomas
#29 - Bob Pettit
#30 - Chris Paul
#31 - Kawhi Leonard
#32 - Rick Barry
#33 - James Harden
#34 - Patrick Ewing
#35 - Bob Cousy
#36 - John Stockton
#37 - Jason Kidd
#38 - Steve Nash
#39 - Willis Reed
#40 - Walt Frazier
#41 - Allen Iverson
#42 - Clyde Drexler
#43 - Russell Westbrook
#44 - Kevin McHale
#45 - Elvin Hayes
#46 - George Gervin
#47 - VOTING NOW

Top 50 Player Pool

For an updated player pool and vote breakdowns see the link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ARaI3VCNauULLYL1Yu24HIRY768FYQdip56sp6uRFGk/edit?usp=sharing).

Everyone may post in this thread but only votes from serious contributors will be considered. Not everyone has to write an essay but there should be some justification or explanation and some coherent arguments being presented. I encourage people to be open-minded and willing to adjust their rankings in response to strong evidence. Debate and discussion is encouraged.

Opening Vote Tally

Bill Walton - 7 (colts19, Round Mound, LBJ, Lebron_James, Go Getter, francesco totti, NIke D'Antoni)
Gary Payton - 2 (Naero, RRR3)
Paul Pierce - 1 (fsvr54)
Ray Allen - 1 (Manny98)
Anthony Davis - 1 (000)

[SouBeachTalents]

Payton

[Phoenix]

I'm here looking at Nash and Kidd being voted in the 30's. IMO justified, but there's no way this guy should be pushed *this* far behind them:

https://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/1713_Payton.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

GP

[TheCorporation]

The glove

[Blazers32]

Damian Lillard

[dankok8]

Going for Payton as well.

[Phoenix]

Glove now tied 7-7 with Walton....

[L.Kizzle]

Gary Patience

[Airupthere]

GP, Nique, Ray Allen, Pierce. I don't mind however they are arranged. I will go with GP for this round then.

[Phoenix]

Glove up 9-7.

[Blazers32]

And why is Lillard not in the selection here? Who chose Walton & Payton?
I am Blazers fans btw, I would select Walton in this case. But want to know how is this done? I would take Lillard over both.
Lillard is easy top 40 all time. Some cancer like Hayes, Westbrook & Iverson are in no way ahead of Lillard.

[Phoenix]

Lillard doesn't have a case over Payton, either peak, overall prime, or career. Payton was not only a capable 20+ PPG player in an era where lead guards were first tasked with facilitating for others before going for their own, but Payton is probably one of the top 3 defensive PGs in the history of the league.

[Blazers32]

Lillard doesn't have a case over Payton, either peak, overall prime, or career.

But He does have a sure case over Westbrook,or Iverson easily.

[Phoenix]

But He does have a sure case over Westbrook,or Iverson easily.

Westbrook, yeah sure, he makes too many dumb plays for me to vouch for him. Iverson, no....

[Airupthere]

Westbrook is too high on this list. But that's how it has gone.

[Blazers32]

Westbrook, yeah sure, he makes too many dumb plays for me to vouch for him. Iverson, no....

They both have a case, where the teams they played for played better off without them ( Iverson with Denver, and Detroit). Westbrook same story.

[Phoenix]

They both have a case, where the teams they played for played better off without them ( Iverson with Denver, and Detroit). Westbrook same story.

Denver Iverson was end of prime. What about the first decade of his career with Philly? Why does Dame 'easily' warrant being voted over him? I don't see Dame doing any more with Philly in the same role. I don't see him looking peak Shaq and Kobe in the eye during the 2001 finals, and I don't see him winning an MVP award in that space or even being in the running for one.

[L.Kizzle]

Is Lillard even a top 5 PG in this era? He's not top 40 All-Time.

[Blazers32]

Is Lillard even a top 5 PG in this era? He's not top 40 All-Time.

Apart from Chris Paul, and Stephen Curry. No one has a case.
Lillard is ahead of Kyrie Irving, Westbrook, Rondo etc. Who had luxury of playing with Durant & Lebron.
Pair Lillard with Lebron, and lets talk.

[Blazers32]

Denver Iverson was end of prime. What about the first decade of his career with Philly? Why does Dame 'easily' warrant being voted over him? I don't see Dame doing any more with Philly in the same role. I don't see him looking peak Shaq and Kobe in the eye during the 2001 finals, and I don't see him winning an MVP award in that space or even being in the running for one.

Philly success was down to Larry Brown defense, then anything. They survived Iverson low fg% shooting, thanks to defense.

[Phoenix]

Biggest problem with Iverson is modern analytics isn't especially kind to his efficiency numbers, but nobody at his size shouldn't have even been *that* impactful at that point in the league. Fast forward another 5 years, and suddenly you're in a league where Iverson at 31 years old is able to drop 33ppg while rising to league average on efficiency. And I'm supposed to believe that Iverson in this era isn't dropping Dame numbers or better?

[Phoenix]

Philly success was down to Larry Brown defense, then anything. They survived Iverson low fg% shooting, thanks to defense.

They also 'survived' because Iverson was the only one on the team who could score worth a damn. Or are you making the argument that Eric Snow should have been taking more shots? You also act like Dame was out there killing it in field goal percentage....for most of his career he's been a 43-44% shooter. That's nothing to brag about in a league that's been built for players like him.

[fsvr54]

GP, Nique, Ray Allen, Pierce. I don't mind however they are arranged. I will go with GP for this round then.

I'd add Worthy to round up this list

[Uliaball]

A few players are missing. Yes like Worthy, Tony parker or John Stockton ...

[L.Kizzle]

A few noteworthy guys missing.

MVPs/NBA champs
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bill Walton
Bob McAdoo

MVPs
Derrick Rose
Nikola Jokic

Scoring champs
Tiny Archibald
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King
Alex English
Dominique Wilkins
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo Anthony

Finals MVPs
Jojo White
Dennis Johnson
Joe Dumars
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Paul Pierce

Other league leaders
Artis Gilmore
Dennis Rodman
Chris Webber
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen

[dankok8]

Two old school guys missing who could be top 50 candidates are Dolph Schayes and Paul Arizin.

[Phoenix]

A few noteworthy guys missing.

MVPs/NBA champs
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bill Walton
Bob McAdoo

MVPs
Derrick Rose
Nikola Jokic

Scoring champs
Tiny Archibald
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King
Alex English
Dominique Wilkins
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo Anthony

Finals MVPs
Jojo White
Dennis Johnson
Joe Dumars
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Paul Pierce

Other league leaders
Artis Gilmore
Dennis Rodman
Chris Webber
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen

What exercises like this have confirmed for me is that after the top 30 or so, you could pretty much throw a list of names in the air and doesn't matter too much how they land. Alot of these guys are really on the same level once you get past the absolute best of the best. I think it makes for more interesting discussion though....

[L.Kizzle]

Two old school guys missing who could be top 50 candidates are Dolph Schayes and Paul Arizin.
I think Dolph was the better of the two. He was still an All-Star/All NBA talent as late as 1962.

[RRR3]

A few noteworthy guys missing.

MVPs/NBA champs
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bill Walton
Bob McAdoo

MVPs
Derrick Rose
Nikola Jokic

Scoring champs
Tiny Archibald
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King
Alex English
Dominique Wilkins
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo Anthony

Finals MVPs
Jojo White
Dennis Johnson
Joe Dumars
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Paul Pierce

Other league leaders
Artis Gilmore
Dennis Rodman
Chris Webber
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen
Derrick Rose had less than two whole seasons as a star he’s not even top 100

[Phoenix]

9 votes for Glove.....

[gonzaldo]

Payton for me, no major weaknesses and an all time great defender.

[Phoenix]

Annnnnnd that's 10 for Glove and we've crossed the '20 vote minimum' threshold.

OP, over to you.....

[jlip]

I haven't gone through the thread but I don't particularly see a case for Walton. With him, you have basically two and a half seasons of nearly GOAT level play/ impact, but due to injuries and role not even all star level play for the rest of his career. I would choose someone like Cowens over him who despite not having an equal peak, did have a better career. But since it appears that Payton is the pick for this, I will cast my vote for Payton.

[Phoenix]

I haven't gone through the thread but I don't particularly see a case for Walton. With him, you have basically two and a half seasons of nearly GOAT level play/ impact, but due to injuries and role not even all star level play for the rest of his career. I would choose someone like Cowens over him who despite not having an equal peak, did have a better career. But since it appears that Payton is the pick for this, I will cast my vote for Payton.

Pretty much why Payton started the thread with 2 votes and leapfrogged Walton, everyone is basically on the same page as this.

[fsvr54]

A few noteworthy guys missing.

MVPs/NBA champs
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bill Walton
Bob McAdoo

MVPs
Derrick Rose
Nikola Jokic

Scoring champs
Tiny Archibald
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King
Alex English
Dominique Wilkins
Tracy McGrady
Carmelo Anthony

Finals MVPs
Jojo White
Dennis Johnson
Joe Dumars
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
Paul Pierce

Other league leaders
Artis Gilmore
Dennis Rodman
Chris Webber
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Ray Allen

Earl Monroe is as good as a lot of those guys

[dankok8]

Final Vote Tally

Gary Payton - 11 (Naero, RRR3, SouBeachTalents, Phoenix, 1987_Lakers, TheCorporation, dankok8, L. Kizzle, Airupthere, gonzaldo, jlip)
Bill Walton - 7 (colts19, Round Mound, LBJ, Lebron_James, Go Getter, francesco totti, NIke D'Antoni)
Paul Pierce - 1 (fsvr54)
Ray Allen - 1 (Manny98)
Anthony Davis - 1 (000)
Damian Lilllard - 1 (blazers32)

Payton wins.