Ringer.com: MJ was 30 yrs ahead of time as 30/10/10 PG like Westbrook, Luka, etc.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/nDBX5i.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/GjUUon.gif



Ultimately, Jordan found that the point guard style didn't allow the best teammate fit or player development (clashes with other ball-handlers and can't develop young ball-handlers), nor did it allow the best team strategy (ball movement)....

So he opted to play partially off-ball as a player with elite jumpshooting skill/capacity for ball movement and therefore good brand of ball (the highest team ceilings)..

But if the Bulls needed elite assist levels (more than 7 apg), JORDAN WAS THE ONLY OPTION, and he's also the only player to average 10 apg in a series without bringing the ball up/playing point guard (91' Finals), which is a goat passing accomplishment.

[Axe]

Teen titans was an amazing comics/cartoon.

[RRR3]

Poll: Just how stupid is 3ball?


A. Stupid, but capable of functioning in real life
B. Can barely tie his shoes, and struggles to form coherent thoughts.

[3ba11]

Poll: Just how stupid is 3ball?


A. Stupid, but capable of functioning in real life
B. Can barely tie his shoes, and struggles to form coherent thoughts.


I'm just ragdolling your dumb perception (and the media's) that Jordan wasn't the leading passer on the Bulls - the historical record shows that he had goat-tier point guard ability and his 30/10/10 style was 30 years ahead of it's time.

[RRR3]

I’m gonna go with B. I don’t think 3ball can even figure out how doorknobs work tbh.

[Round Mound]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/nDBX5i.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/GjUUon.gif



Ultimately, Jordan found that the point guard style didn't allow the best teammate fit or player development (clashes with other ball-handlers and can't develop young ball-handlers), nor did it allow the best team strategy (ball movement)....

So he opted to play partially off-ball as a player with elite jumpshooting skill/capacity for ball movement and therefore good brand of ball (the highest team ceilings)..

But if the Bulls needed elite assist levels (more than 7 apg), JORDAN WAS THE ONLY OPTION, and he's also the only player to average 10 apg in a series without bringing the ball up/playing point guard (91' Finals), which is a goat passing accomplishment.

:facepalm Pippen took that role pretty well as the Bulls Point-Forward and decreased his scoring numbers in order for the team to win. Don´t give the APG averages of both i saw it live and Pippen was a better timer-passer than Jordan.

[Axe]

:facepalm Pippen took that role pretty well as the Bulls Point-Forward and decreased his scoring numbers in order for the team to win. Don´t give the APG averages of both i saw it live and Pippen was a better timer-passer than Jordan.
He seemed to forget that the superior kobe was also a ballhog just like his true hero lol.

[Xiao Yao You]

:facepalm Pippen took that role pretty well as the Bulls Point-Forward and decreased his scoring numbers in order for the team to win. Don´t give the APG averages of both i saw it live and Pippen was a better timer-passer than Jordan.

Pippen wasn't a great scorer. Better plamaker

[Round Mound]

Pippen wasn't a great scorer. Better plamaker

He was capable of 22 PPG on 49.1% FG as the man on his team. That's not bad. He wasn't the greatest of scorers but as a DEFENDER he was the best defensive SF of the 90's, Very Good Rebounder, A Great Point-Forward Ballhandler and Passer. He was also a Great Coast to Coast Driver-Finisher-Dunker etc Only Grant Hill has a case as being as good as Pippen as The Best SF of the 90's and he didn't have the success Pippen did on his own without Jordan. Ofcourse I am talking about Pippen in his prime not with the Rockets or Blazers. Nothing surprised me about how good Pippen did without Jordan in 93-94 etc BTW: I also think MJ is the best ever. That shouldn't affect how good Pippen also was.

[SouBeachTalents]

Other interesting articles from ringer.com

https://i.ibb.co/4JZrk3k/Screenshot-2021-11-21-010211.png

[Axe]

:roll:

[3ba11]

:facepalm Pippen took that role pretty well as the Bulls Point-Forward and decreased his scoring numbers in order for the team to win. Don´t give the APG averages of both i saw it live and Pippen was a better timer-passer than Jordan.


Pippen lacked a breakdown handle and couldn't break down defenders off-the-dribble, so he couldn't "toss dimes" - he just moved the ball from one side to the other and averaged 5 apg (mid-tier playmaking) with weak scoring

Otoh, Jordan had a breakdown handle and was considered the best PG in the league after just 10 games at the position in 89' - so when was Pippen considered a top PG like MJ was in 89'?... he could never average 30/10/10 like MJ, especially 30 years ahead of his time because only today's players like Luka and Harden do that.. This whole conversation is ridiculous - pippen is nowhere near the best PG in the league or a futuristic PG, so he's nowhere near MJ

[Axe]

In 2am past midnight, op bumps threads related to mj and his biggest sidekick yet again.

[SATAN]

Other interesting articles from ringer.com

https://i.ibb.co/4JZrk3k/Screenshot-2021-11-21-010211.png

:applause:

[3ba11]

He was capable of 22 PPG on 49.1% FG as the man on his team. That's not bad.





That's the worst peak of anyone remotely decent

[ELITEpower23]

Other interesting articles from ringer.com

https://i.ibb.co/4JZrk3k/Screenshot-2021-11-21-010211.png

BANG!!! :oldlol:

[3ba11]

BANG!!! :oldlol:


Lebron's teammate was an equal-scoring partner and attracted equal-defensive attention, which makes Lebron's stats easier than say, Kawhi's stats during his 2019 run when he lacked a viable scoring partner and therefore faced maximum defensive attention.

AD infact outscored Lebron and the entire league in the 2020 Playoffs, while outplaying future MVP Jokic - that's the most help possible, so Lebron's 2020 ring is like Magic's 85' ring when Kareem and Worthy were the leaders

[Round Mound]

That's the worst peak of anyone remotely decent

There is only a small sample of Pippen's numbers without Jordan for 1 full season and some of the other season.

Pippen's REAL LEVEL without Jordan:

1993-94:

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG (how many forwards of his era averaged that?) and 0.8 BPG

1994-95:

21.4 PPG on 48.0% FG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 SPG (Lead The League) and 1.1 BPG

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7

Defensive Win Shares

1989-90 NBA 4.3 (12th)
1990-91 NBA 5.4 (6th)
1991-92 NBA 5.5 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.8 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 6.0 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 6.7 (2nd)
1995-96 NBA 5.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.2 (11th)
1999-00 NBA 4.4 (11th)
Career NBA 67.3 (18th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)

*Notice the underlined thats Pippen WITHOUT Jordan.

A Top 10 Player of the 90's....

[3ba11]

There is only a small sample of Pippen's numbers without Jordan for 1 full season and some of the other season.

Pippen's REAL LEVEL without Jordan:

1993-94:

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG (how many forwards of his era averaged that?) and 0.8 BPG

1994-95:

21.4 PPG on 48.0% FG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 SPG (Lead The League) and 1.1 BPG

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7

Defensive Win Shares

1989-90 NBA 4.3 (12th)
1990-91 NBA 5.4 (6th)
1991-92 NBA 5.5 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.8 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 6.0 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 6.7 (2nd)
1995-96 NBA 5.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.2 (11th)
1999-00 NBA 4.4 (11th)
Career NBA 67.3 (18th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)

*Notice the underlined thats Pippen WITHOUT Jordan.

A Top 10 Player of the 90's....


^^^^ borderline top 10 in advanced stats and 22/5 raw stats is the worst peak of anyone in the top 75.. completely pedestrian production - a top 1000 peak

And no one was ever called an all-timer for winning 55 games

That's isn't an all-time accomplishment and guys like Ty Lawson, Marc Gasol, Blake Griffin or hundreds of others have achieved it, yet only Pippen had the advantage of pursuing a 4-peat - once the 3-peat swagger, extra motivation and surprise factor was exposed in the 94' Playoffs, the Bulls were borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber - so the 95' bulls were the REAL bulls without mj and pippen infact destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 2 years..

Furthermore, Pippen was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan - he was a 3rd, 4th, or 5th option without MJ from 99-03' that averaged 14 ppg the year after the triangle in 99' just like the year before in 89'... He was literally a bum without the triangle and MJ propping him up to 2nd option because he was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series without MJ from 99-03' (not a 2nd option).

[Phoenix]

https://y.yarn.co/856364df-48e5-49cc-9f06-cc1bf29f804b_text.gif

[SATAN]

OP trying to craft narratives and dodge and weave his way through every pathetic thread he creates:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/94c8859fe121d02571c5ff5cfd0873b4/tenor.gif

[TheGoatest]

The self-admittedly stat-padding for triple-doubles Jordan was even outmatched in his own time, let alone 30 years later.

A 6'3 170lbs point guard averaged more rpg than the self-admittedly stat-padding for triple-doubles Jordan 4 seasons in the late 80s. Fat Lever averaged 8.1, 8.9, 9.3 and 9.3 rebounds while averaging between 7.5-8.0 assists all those seasons. Aside from the one self-admittedly stat-padding season where the Chicago Bulls coaching staff did everything they could to inflate Jordan's rpg and apg numbers (which BTW STILL looked worse than Lever's), Jordan never cracked either 7.0 rebounds or 7.0 assists per game in any of his other 14 seasons he played in the league.

Also:

2 career playoff triple doubles.
0 career finals triple doubles.
:oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Jordan averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs a game for a title run while also scoring 31.1 ppg on 60%TS w/ 2.4 spg 1.4 bpg & with an insane 14.6 bpm and a .333 WS/48 and a 32.0 PER.
MJ is still the most complete player in NBA history.

[SATAN]

Jordan averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs a game for a title run while also scoring 31.1 ppg on 60%TS w/ 2.4 spg 1.4 bpg & with an insane 14.6 bpm and a .333 WS/48 and a 32.0 PER.
MJ is still the most complete player in NBA history.

Couldn't average 10 apg and get a chip at the same time. Interesting.

He was a natural ball hog, dude. Just stop it. He spent most of his career losing.

[3ba11]

Jordan averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs a game for a title run while also scoring 31.1 ppg on 60%TS w/ 2.4 spg 1.4 bpg & with an insane 14.6 bpm and a .333 WS/48 and a 32.0 PER.
MJ is still the most complete player in NBA history.


Jordan's goat natural talent allowed him to be a 30/10/10 point guard 30 years before Luka, Harden and Westbrook made it commonplace.. And MJ had never played the position before.. Ultimately, the goat was goat off-ball and on-ball

[ELITEpower23]

Other interesting articles from ringer.com

https://i.ibb.co/4JZrk3k/Screenshot-2021-11-21-010211.png

Bingo

[3ba11]

.
MJ had elite handle and playmaking 30 years ago:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-10-2022/-6iz0b.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-14-2022/05eL68.gif

[Johnny32]

"The guys at the scorer's desk let me know what I need," Jordan said.

So, too, do the Bulls' assistant coaches.

"They keep reminding me when I get back to the huddle," Jordan said. "They say, 'You need three more of this. You need four more of that."

[FireDavidKahn]

He never averaged a triple double. Even the picture you posted says otherwise.

MJ would literally go and look at his stats during the game to see what else he needed.

Him posting that statline was the biggest stat padding streak in history.

[FireDavidKahn]

Jordan averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs a game for a title run while also scoring 31.1 ppg on 60%TS w/ 2.4 spg 1.4 bpg & with an insane 14.6 bpm and a .333 WS/48 and a 32.0 PER.
MJ is still the most complete player in NBA history.

https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc1NDU4MDA2NjYwNTU1OTcw/proof-lebron-james-is-the-greatest-of-all-time-goat.jpg


MJ is the most complete player in history
https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1567089731784.jpg

[TheCorporation]

Other interesting articles from ringer.com

https://i.ibb.co/4JZrk3k/Screenshot-2021-11-21-010211.png

:dancin

[TheCorporation]

The self-admittedly stat-padding for triple-doubles Jordan was even outmatched in his own time, let alone 30 years later.

A 6'3 170lbs point guard averaged more rpg than the self-admittedly stat-padding for triple-doubles Jordan 4 seasons in the late 80s. Fat Lever averaged 8.1, 8.9, 9.3 and 9.3 rebounds while averaging between 7.5-8.0 assists all those seasons. Aside from the one self-admittedly stat-padding season where the Chicago Bulls coaching staff did everything they could to inflate Jordan's rpg and apg numbers (which BTW STILL looked worse than Lever's), Jordan never cracked either 7.0 rebounds or 7.0 assists per game in any of his other 14 seasons he played in the league.

Also:

2 career playoff triple doubles.
0 career finals triple doubles.
:oldlol:

https://i.postimg.cc/Jzy9fjgy/winnig_dj_eat.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/sXW1hR1W/KG_Mean_mug.gif

[AirBonner]

30 years ahead? More like 30 years behind. Jerry West is the original “MJ”

[TheCorporation]

30 years ahead? More like 30 years behind. Jerry West is the original “MJ”

It is funny that West gets made fun of for being 1-8 in Finals when Jordan is 1-9 in the 1st fu**ing round without Pippen

:roll::roll:

[JohnMax]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_career.html

Jordan only has 28 career triple doubles.

[FireDavidKahn]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/trp_dbl_career.html

Jordan only has 28 career triple doubles.

First Madonna
Now LeBron

MJ is always coming up "short":(

[TheCorporation]

First Madonna
Now LeBron

MJ is always coming up "short":(

COT damn. MJ takes another L.

[FireDavidKahn]

COT damn. MJ takes another L.

Even Draymond Green has more triple doubles then ole' MJ:roll:

Don't forget about the investment banker fiasco.

L after L for Jordan

[jlip]

So Oscar Robertson doesn't exist?

[PP34Deuce]

This is hilarious.

MJ was great as a drive and kick guy. No one is disputing the motor and ability he had to drive and pass to someone with no defensive attention on them.

Uber guards can do that.

Where Pippen lebron grant hill and other guys shined was doing that but also being able to pass high and low post and thread the needle. Lebron bird and lesser extent luka are able to pass a guy open like PGs.

Stats show us production but they don't show the impact and wizardry of truly great passing players..not just reactionary passing from drive and kick.

[3ba11]

This is hilarious.

MJ was great as a drive and kick guy. No one is disputing the motor and ability he had to drive and pass to someone with no defensive attention on them.

Uber guards can do that.

Where Pippen lebron grant hill and other guys shined was doing that but also being able to pass high and low post and thread the needle. Lebron bird and lesser extent luka are able to pass a guy open like PGs.

Stats show us production but they don't show the impact and wizardry of truly great passing players..not just reactionary passing from drive and kick.


MJ threaded more needles more than today's player because of the no-spacing environment of prior eras and he also had more assists without dominating the ball because he was an off-guard, while today's players enjoy wide open spacing (beginner passing) and ball-dominant offenses (high screen roll action).

Furthermore, Jordan is the only player in history that averaged 10 apg in a series WITHOUT bringing the ball up court/playing point guard (1991 Finals).

Aside from Magic, the next guys in line for quick passing upon the catch are Bird and Jordan (in that order) because they're the only guys that routinely had elite assist numbers while playing off-ball positions like off-guard or shooting forward..

Ultimately, the media said Jordan was a better point guard than Magic, Stockton and Isiah after just 10 games at the new position in 1989 - this is because Jordan had lightning quick reaction and was an all-time level passer from the post or with a live dribble (PG style), or coming off screens (off-guard), and especially quick drives baseline and then finding guys from under the basket.

So the opposite of what you said is true because you haven't watched much MJ enough.