What Was Pippen's Level Among Other Players WITHOUT Jordan?

[Round Mound]

There is only a small sample of Pippen's numbers without Jordan for 1 full season and some of the other season.

Pippen's REAL LEVEL without Jordan:

1993-94:

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG (how many forwards of his era averaged that?) and 0.8 BPG

1994-95:

21.4 PPG on 48.0% FG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 SPG (Lead The League) and 1.1 BPG

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7

Defensive Win Shares

1989-90 NBA 4.3 (12th)
1990-91 NBA 5.4 (6th)
1991-92 NBA 5.5 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.8 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 6.0 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 6.7 (2nd)
1995-96 NBA 5.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.2 (11th)
1999-00 NBA 4.4 (11th)
Career NBA 67.3 (18th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)

*Notice the underlined thats Pippen WITHOUT Jordan.

A Top 10 Player of the 90's....

[3ba11]

^^^ top 500 peak - anyone's peak was better - how many peaks have been 22/5 with borderline top 10 advanced stats and 55 wins?

think about that.... it's TONS OF GUYS like blake griffin or kj

it's not too far from peak Larry Hughes caliber confirmed by Pippen's legendary 2nd Round choke and then borderline lottery in the REAL barometer without MJ (95') when the honeymoon of low expectation/surprise was over... along with the swagger of defending 3-peat status.

55 wins with non-amazing 22/5 stats and a rebounder at 2nd option confirms that the Bulls didn't win via talent and won via 3-peat experience, strategy and surprise factor.. It's certainly a luxury to have 3-peat experience and strategy so you can win with less talent... Contrast this three-peat experience to the Bulls' rookie cast in 88' that needed 35/6/6 and dpoy to win 50 (more talent to offset no experience).

[zeerghit]

^^^ top 1000 peak - anyone's peak was better - it's peak Larry Hughes caliber confirmed by Pippen's legendary choking in 2nd Round and then borderline lottery in the REAL barometer without MJ (95') when the honeymoon of surprise factor and low expectation was over, along with the luster of defending 3-peat status.

u have no respect left and u still posting this kinda bs, dude u need to see Psychiatrist, the time u wasting here taking about Lebon/Jordan/Pippen its stupid and bad for ur health. Seek some help

[3ba11]

u have no respect left and u still posting this kinda bs, dude u need to see Psychiatrist, the time u wasting here taking about Lebon/Jordan/Pippen its stupid and bad for ur health. Seek some help


How many peaks have been 22/5 with borderline top 10 advanced stats and 55 wins?

think about that.... it's TONS OF GUYS like draymond or tim hardaway... a top 500 peak or thereabouts

Furthermore, 55 wins with non-amazing 22/5 stats and a rebounder at 2nd option confirms the Bulls didn't win via talent and won via 3-peat experience, strategy and surprise factor.. It's certainly a luxury to have 3-peat experience and strategy so you can win with less talent... Contrast this three-peat experience to the Bulls' rookie cast in 88' that needed 35/6/6 and dpoy to win 50 (more talent to offset no experience).

[SATAN]

u have no respect left and u still posting this kinda bs, dude u need to see Psychiatrist,

*Firing squad

[TheGoatest]

On offense:

-3rd in ppg in the league among perimeter players, with better scoring efficiency than the #1 and #2 perimeter ppg leaders
-by far the best passing/offense running non-point guard in the game, and only worse than 1 or 2 pure, first-pass point guards at this aspect

On defense:

-Most versatile defender in the league
-Best perimeter defender in the league, which of course comes automatically with being the GOAT perimeter defender to ever play the game

[ImKobe]

Compare him to the other supporting cast members on Playoff teams in that era?

PER

John Stockton '91 - 9th at 22.8, Pippen 21st at 20.6
Terry Porter '91 - 13th at 21.7, Pippen 21st at 20.6
John Stockton '92 - 9th at 22.9, Pippen 13th at 21.5
Mark Price '92 - 10th at 22.7, Pippen 13th at 21.5
John Stockton '93 - 10th at 21.3, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Cedric Ceballos '93 - 12th at 21.0, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Mark Price '93 - 8th at 22.1, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Larry Nance '93 - 17th at 19.8, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Penny Hardaway '96 - 9th at 24.6, Pippen 16th at 21.0
Shawn Kemp '96 - 12th at 22.6, Pippen 16th at 21.0
John Stockton '96 - 14th at 21.9, Pippen 16th at 21.0
John Stockton '97 - 8th at 22.1, Pippen 17th at 21.3
John Stockton '98 - 7th at 21.8, Pippen 21st at 20.3

WS/48

Terry Porter '91 - 5th at .235, Pippen 15th at .179
John Stockton '91 - 8th at .217, Pippen 15th at .179
John Stockton '92 - 6th at .215, Pippen 12th at .192
Larry Nance '92 - 10th at .204, Pippen 12th at .192
Mark Price '93 - 7th at .197, Pippen 57th at .132
Cedric Ceballos '93 - 10th at .186, Pippen 57th at .132
John Stockton '93 - 12th at .177, Pippen 57th at .132
I could keep going with '93, almost every 2nd option was better in that category
Penny Hardaway '96 - 7th at .229, Pippen 9th at .209
John Stockton '96 - 8th at .214, Pippen 9th at .209
John Stockton '97 - 3rd at .226, Pippen 9th at .203
John Stockton '98 - 5th at .206, Pippen 8th at .193

BPM

John Stockton '91 - 5th at 8.3, Pippen 10th at 5.8
Terry Porter '91 - 6th at 7.4, Pippen 10th at 5.8
John Stockton '92 - 4th at 8.7, Pippen 6th at 6.1
John Stockton '93 - 5th at 6.6, Pippen 14th at 4.0
Mark Price '93 - 9th at 5.3, Pippen 14th at 4.0
Penny Hardaway '96 - 4th at 7.2, Pippen 8th at 6.3
John Stockton '96 - 6th at 6.8, Pippen 8th at 6.3
John Stockton '97 - 5th at 6.6, Pippen 10th at 5.7
John Stockton '98 - 5th at 5.6, Pippen 8th at 5.0

VORP


John Stockton '91 - 4th at 8.1, Pippen 10th at 5.9
Terry Porter '91 - 8th at 6.2, Pippen 10th at 5.9
John Stockton '92 - 2nd at 8.1, Pippen 5th at 6.4
John Stockton '93 - 6th at 6.2, Pippen 10th at 4.7
Penny Hardaway '96 - 4th at 6.9, Pippen 7th at 5.9
John Stockton '96 - 5th at 6.4, Pippen 7th at 5.9
John Stockton '97 - 6th at 6.3, Pippen 8th at 6.1
Pippen missed half the season in '98 so no point comparing that

Conclusion: Stockton was consistently the better 2nd option than Pippen and peaked higher in all the advanced metrics as a supporting player than even '94 and '95 Pippen.

[outofstomach]

Compare him to the other supporting cast members on Playoff teams in that era?

PER

John Stockton '91 - 9th at 22.8, Pippen 21st at 20.6
Terry Porter '91 - 13th at 21.7, Pippen 21st at 20.6
Mark Price ' 92 - 10th at 22.7, Pippen 13th at 21.5
Cedric Ceballos '93 - 12th at 21.0, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Mark Price '93 - 8th at 22.1, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Larry Nance '93 - 17th at 19.8, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Penny Hardaway '96 - 9th at 24.6, Pippen 16th at 21.0
Shawn Kemp '96 - 12th at 22.6, Pippen 16th at 21.0
John Stockton '96 - 14th at 21.9, Pippen 16th at 21.0
John Stockton '97 - 8th at 22.1, Pippen 17th at 21.3
John Stockton '98 - 7th at 21.8, Pippen 21st at 20.3

WS/48

Terry Porter '91 - 5th at .235, Pippen 15th at .179
John Stockton '91 - 8th at .217, Pippen 15th at .179
John Stockton '92 - 6th at .215, Pippen 12th at .192
Larry Nance '92 - 10th at .204, Pippen 12th at .192
Mark Price '93 - 7th at .197, Pippen 57th at .132
Cedric Ceballos '93 - 10th at .186, Pippen 57th at .132
John Stockton '93 - 12th at .177, Pippen 57th at .132
I could keep going with '93, almost every 2nd option was better in that category
Penny Hardaway '96 - 7th at .229, Pippen 9th at .209
John Stockton '96 - 8th at .214, Pippen 9th at .209
John Stockton '97 - 3rd at .226, Pippen 9th at .203
John Stockton '98 - 5th at .206, Pippen 8th at .193

BPM

John Stockton '91 - 5th at 8.3, Pippen 10th at 5.8
Terry Porter '91 - 6th at 7.4, Pippen 10th at 5.8
John Stockton '92 - 4th at 8.7, Pippen 6th at 6.1
John Stockton '93 - 5th at 6.6, Pippen 14th at 4.0
Mark Price '93 - 9th at 5.3, Pippen 14th at 4.0
Penny Hardaway '96 - 4th at 7.2, Pippen 8th at 6.3
John Stockton '96 - 6th at 6.8, Pippen 8th at 6.3
John Stockton '97 - 5th at 6.6, Pippen 10th at 5.7
John Stockton '98 - 5th at 5.6, Pippen 8th at 5.0

VORP


John Stockton '91 - 4th at 8.1, Pippen 10th at 5.9
Terry Porter '91 - 8th at 6.2, Pippen 10th at 5.9
John Stockton '92 - 2nd at 8.1, Pippen 5th at 6.4
John Stockton '93 - 6th at 6.2, Pippen 10th at 4.7
Penny Hardaway '96 - 4th at 6.9, Pippen 7th at 5.9
John Stockton '96 - 5th at 6.4, Pippen 7th at 5.9
John Stockton '97 - 6th at 6.3, Pippen 8th at 6.1
Pippen missed half the season in '98 so no point comparing that

Conclusion, Stockton was consistently the better 2nd option than Pippen and peaked higher in all the advanced metrics as a supporting player than even '94 and '95 Pippen.
that’s the end of the thread, bye bye bronsexuals :lol

[8Ball]

Pippen is a top 5 to top 10 player for entirety of the 90s.

[8Ball]

Compare him to the other supporting cast members on Playoff teams in that era?

PER

John Stockton '91 - 9th at 22.8, Pippen 21st at 20.6
Terry Porter '91 - 13th at 21.7, Pippen 21st at 20.6
John Stockton '92 - 9th at 22.9, Pippen 13th at 21.5
Mark Price '92 - 10th at 22.7, Pippen 13th at 21.5
John Stockton '93 - 10th at 21.3, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Cedric Ceballos '93 - 12th at 21.0, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Mark Price '93 - 8th at 22.1, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Larry Nance '93 - 17th at 19.8, Pippen 24th at 19.2
Penny Hardaway '96 - 9th at 24.6, Pippen 16th at 21.0
Shawn Kemp '96 - 12th at 22.6, Pippen 16th at 21.0
John Stockton '96 - 14th at 21.9, Pippen 16th at 21.0
John Stockton '97 - 8th at 22.1, Pippen 17th at 21.3
John Stockton '98 - 7th at 21.8, Pippen 21st at 20.3

WS/48

Terry Porter '91 - 5th at .235, Pippen 15th at .179
John Stockton '91 - 8th at .217, Pippen 15th at .179
John Stockton '92 - 6th at .215, Pippen 12th at .192
Larry Nance '92 - 10th at .204, Pippen 12th at .192
Mark Price '93 - 7th at .197, Pippen 57th at .132
Cedric Ceballos '93 - 10th at .186, Pippen 57th at .132
John Stockton '93 - 12th at .177, Pippen 57th at .132
I could keep going with '93, almost every 2nd option was better in that category
Penny Hardaway '96 - 7th at .229, Pippen 9th at .209
John Stockton '96 - 8th at .214, Pippen 9th at .209
John Stockton '97 - 3rd at .226, Pippen 9th at .203
John Stockton '98 - 5th at .206, Pippen 8th at .193

BPM

John Stockton '91 - 5th at 8.3, Pippen 10th at 5.8
Terry Porter '91 - 6th at 7.4, Pippen 10th at 5.8
John Stockton '92 - 4th at 8.7, Pippen 6th at 6.1
John Stockton '93 - 5th at 6.6, Pippen 14th at 4.0
Mark Price '93 - 9th at 5.3, Pippen 14th at 4.0
Penny Hardaway '96 - 4th at 7.2, Pippen 8th at 6.3
John Stockton '96 - 6th at 6.8, Pippen 8th at 6.3
John Stockton '97 - 5th at 6.6, Pippen 10th at 5.7
John Stockton '98 - 5th at 5.6, Pippen 8th at 5.0

VORP


John Stockton '91 - 4th at 8.1, Pippen 10th at 5.9
Terry Porter '91 - 8th at 6.2, Pippen 10th at 5.9
John Stockton '92 - 2nd at 8.1, Pippen 5th at 6.4
John Stockton '93 - 6th at 6.2, Pippen 10th at 4.7
Penny Hardaway '96 - 4th at 6.9, Pippen 7th at 5.9
John Stockton '96 - 5th at 6.4, Pippen 7th at 5.9
John Stockton '97 - 6th at 6.3, Pippen 8th at 6.1
Pippen missed half the season in '98 so no point comparing that

Conclusion: Stockton was consistently the better 2nd option than Pippen and peaked higher in all the advanced metrics as a supporting player than even '94 and '95 Pippen.

LeBron has higher playoff PER peak run and more 30 PER playoff runs past 1st round than Jordan.

Looks like Bron > Jordan individually.

[BigShotBob]

LeBron has higher playoff PER peak run and more 30 PER playoff runs past 1st round than Jordan.

Looks like Bron > Jordan individually.

MJ has the highest PER in NBA History in the post season.

Try again simone.

[8Ball]

MJ has the highest PER in NBA History in the post season.

Try again simone.

Wrong.

Bron has the highest PER run in 2009. Jordan never matched that in anything past 1st round

Bron has the 2nd highest PER run at 32 over Jordan's 2nd.

[ImKobe]

Pippen is a top 5 to top 10 player for entirety of the 90s.

0 argument for top 5, MAYBE in the 8-10 range but that's if we're being generous and a lot of it has to do with MJ carrying him to 6 rings. Stats-wise he's not a top 10 player of the decade but being on national TV every game and having the biggest spotlight helped his accolades and popularity that some of the other guys didn't get.

91-98

Drexler - 21/6/6/2/1 54.8%TS 21.0 PER 5.5 BPM, led a team to the Finals as the best player, averaged 22/10/7 56%TS in the '95 Finals, 41/9/6 66.7%FG elimination game against Utah

Pippen - 20/7/6/2/1 54.4%TS 20.6 PER 5.5 BPM, 2nd round exit as the best player, outplayed by Ewing


Playoffs 91-98

Drexler - 21/7/6/2/1 54.9%TS 20.6 PER 6.1 BPM
Pippen - 19/8/6/2/1 52.1%TS 19.5 PER 5.6 BPM, his stats got WORSE in the Playoffs

[BigShotBob]

Wrong.

Bron has the highest PER run in 2009. Jordan never matched that in anything past 1st round

Bron has the 2nd highest PER run at 32 over Jordan's 2nd.

Average PER. MJ is number one.

Pippen is number 93. Stockton is number 53.

Comprehensive list of all of the players in NBA history with a higher post season PER than Pippen

Michael Jordan* 28.60
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 28.24
4. Nikola Jokić 27.51
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.13
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Giannis Antetokounmpo 25.63
8. Kevin Durant 24.62
9. Tim Duncan* 24.28
10. Kawhi Leonard 24.20
11. Charles Barkley* 24.18
12. Dirk Nowitzki 23.82
13. Chris Paul 23.66
14. Tracy McGrady* 23.40
15. Dolph Schayes* 23.29
16. Jerry West* 23.06
17. David Robinson* 23.02
18. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
19. Stephen Curry 23.00
20. Magic Johnson* 22.95
21. James Harden 22.87
22. Wilt Chamberlain* 22.75
23. Bob Pettit* 22.59
24. Kobe Bryant* 22.40
25. Dwyane Wade 22.37
Rank Player PER
26. Russell Westbrook 22.21
27. Julius Erving* 22.05
28. Elgin Baylor* 21.83
29. Rick Barry* 21.78
30. Amar'e Stoudemire 21.75
31. Dwight Howard 21.63
32. Moses Malone* 21.57
33. Larry Bird* 21.41
34. Baron Davis 21.36
35. Allen Iverson* 21.24
36. Kyrie Irving 21.22
37. George Gervin* 21.16
38. Karl Malone* 21.12
39. Kevin Garnett* 21.12
40. Oscar Robertson* 20.99
41. Bob Lanier* 20.81
42. George Yardley* 20.72
43. Cliff Hagan* 20.62
44. Blake Griffin 20.61
45. Shawn Kemp 20.55
46. Gus Williams 20.37
47. Artis Gilmore* 20.36
48. Paul Arizin* 20.33
49. Pau Gasol 20.20
50. Dan Issel* 20.00
Rank Player PER
51. Alex English* 19.92
52. Walter Davis 19.91
53. John Stockton* 19.84
54. Walt Frazier* 19.84
55. Steve Nash* 19.84
56. Isiah Thomas* 19.80
57. Damian Lillard 19.76
58. Anfernee Hardaway 19.76
59. George McGinnis* 19.73
60. Clyde Lovellette* 19.72
61. Clyde Drexler* 19.71
62. LaMarcus Aldridge 19.65
63. Patrick Ewing* 19.63
64. Reggie Miller* 19.54
65. Bill Russell* 19.40
66. Kevin McHale* 19.36
67. Adrian Dantley* 19.33
68. Billy Cunningham* 19.33
69. Manu Ginóbili 19.33
70. Clint Capela 19.23
71. Alonzo Mourning* 19.18
72. Chauncey Billups 19.11
73. Kevin Johnson 19.08
74. Elvin Hayes* 19.08
75. Larry Foust 19.08
Rank Player PER
76. Marques Johnson 19.06
77. Jimmy Butler 19.00
78. Willie Wise 18.94
79. Chris Webber* 18.87
80. Roger Brown* 18.86
81. Jimmy Jones 18.79
82. Brad Daugherty 18.73
83. Fred Brown 18.71
84. Dominique Wilkins* 18.71
85. Mack Calvin 18.63
86. Bob McAdoo* 18.54
87. Derrick Rose 18.51
88. Mel Daniels* 18.43
89. Chris Bosh* 18.42
90. Zelmo Beaty* 18.42
91. Mike Conley 18.41
92. Rik Smits 18.40

[ImKobe]

We can end the thread right here, all these stat nerds are losing at their own game. I'm sure they won't try to move the goal posts..

[BigShotBob]

We can end the thread right here, all these stat nerds are losing at their own game. I'm sure they won't try to move the goal posts..

I would have never guessed that Rik Smits edged out Pippen in PER given that Pippen had the luxury of playing alongside MJ, but it makes sense given that Smits was a load down low and hit clutch shots in the playoffs.

[8Ball]

0 argument for top 5, MAYBE in the 8-10 range but that's if we're being generous and a lot of it has to do with MJ carrying him to 6 rings. Stats-wise he's not a top 10 player of the decade but being on national TV every game and having the biggest spotlight helped his accolades and popularity that some of the other guys didn't get.

91-98

Drexler - 21/6/6/2/1 54.8%TS 21.0 PER 5.5 BPM, led a team to the Finals as the best player, averaged 22/10/7 56%TS in the '95 Finals, 41/9/6 66.7%FG elimination game against Utah

Pippen - 20/7/6/2/1 54.4%TS 20.6 PER 5.5 BPM, 2nd round exit as the best player, outplayed by Ewing


Playoffs 91-98

Drexler - 21/7/6/2/1 54.9%TS 20.6 PER 6.1 BPM
Pippen - 19/8/6/2/1 52.1%TS 19.5 PER 5.6 BPM, his stats got WORSE in the Playoffs

Pippen had 3 all nba 1st teams in the 90s.

That's top 5 best player.

We can end the thread right here, all these stat nerds are losing at their own game. I'm sure they won't try to move the goal posts

I win again.

[ImKobe]

Pippen had 3 all nba 1st teams in the 90s.

That's top 5 best player.

We can end the thread right here, all these stat nerds are losing at their own game. I'm sure they won't try to move the goal posts

I win again.

MJ
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
Shaq
D-Rob

he was not better than those guys, 0 argument.

Then you have Stockton, Drexler, Ewing, Reggie.. that's 10 guys I could make a solid argument for over Pippen. Like I said, he's not top 5 and he's in the 8-10 range if we're being generous.

[8Ball]

MJ
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
Shaq
D-Rob

he was not better than those guys, 0 argument.

Then you have Stockton, Drexler, Ewing, Reggie.. that's 10 guys I could make a solid argument for over Pippen. Like I said, he's not top 5 and he's in the 8-10 range if we're being generous.

Here is what people that covered the game thought of Pippen at the time, not trolls like you:

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

We can end the thread right here, all these stat nerds are losing at their own game. I'm sure they won't try to move the goal posts

[BigShotBob]

MJ
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
Shaq
D-Rob

he was not better than those guys, 0 argument.

Then you have Stockton, Drexler, Ewing, Reggie.. that's 10 guys I could make a solid argument for over Pippen. Like I said, he's not top 5 and he's in the 8-10 range if we're being generous.

Penny, Grant Hill, Kemp, GP, Alonzo Mourning, Mutombo to add a few more and if people question if they're better or not then just ask them how good would they have looked if they all had the luxury of playing with MJ

[ImKobe]

Here is what people that covered the game thought of Pippen at the time, not trolls like you:

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

We can end the thread right here, all these stat nerds are losing at their own game. I'm sure they won't try to move the goal posts

MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, D-Rob, Shaq, Stockton

please make an argument for Pippen over any of these guys.

[ImKobe]

Penny, Grant Hill, Kemp, GP, Alonzo Mourning, Mutombo to add a few more and if people question if they're better or not then just ask them how good would they have looked if they all had the luxury of playing with MJ


Oh, no doubt about it. Imagine MJ and Ewing on the same team their entire career? We'd have Ewing GOAT center arguments on these boards lmao.

[BigShotBob]

Oh, no doubt about it. Imagine MJ and Ewing on the same team their entire career? We'd have Ewing GOAT center arguments on these boards lmao.

They were close to playing together in college but when Ewing went to North Carolina he was called a racial slur and instead committed to Georgetown.

[ELITEpower23]

LeBron has higher playoff PER peak run and more 30 PER playoff runs past 1st round than Jordan.

Looks like Bron > Jordan individually.

Lite work :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

There is only a small sample of Pippen's numbers without Jordan for 1 full season and some of the other season.

Pippen's REAL LEVEL without Jordan:

1993-94:

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG (how many forwards of his era averaged that?) and 0.8 BPG

1994-95:

21.4 PPG on 48.0% FG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 SPG (Lead The League) and 1.1 BPG

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7

Defensive Win Shares

1989-90 NBA 4.3 (12th)
1990-91 NBA 5.4 (6th)
1991-92 NBA 5.5 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.8 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 6.0 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 6.7 (2nd)
1995-96 NBA 5.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.2 (11th)
1999-00 NBA 4.4 (11th)
Career NBA 67.3 (18th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)

*Notice the underlined thats Pippen WITHOUT Jordan.

A Top 10 Player of the 90's....

Yeah pips prime was pretty good but if you wanna be honest and keep it in context it wasn't amazing or anything. He still had limits scoring wise. It's why phil didn't trust him to score in the clutch. The bulls record in 93 was as much of a testament to phil as a coach as it was pip as a player. Plus the following year the bulls were in jeopardy of missing the playoffs before mj came back and saved them. Guys like you always ignore that. Pip was pretty mediocre that year in the post season btw. He was pretty much mediocre from that point until there last chip actually.

The pip debate is like a republican and democratic argument. Mj haters like you will say pip was the greatest help ever and mj dick riders will say pip was trash. As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. Pip for the first three chips was a great player. For the last three chips he was good but he was more above average than great.

This is no different for alot of atg players btw. Bron won half of his chips with his second option being great. The other half he won with his second option being above average.

[outofstomach]

We can end the thread right here, all these stat nerds are losing at their own game. I'm sure they won't try to move the goal posts..
:lol

[2much_knowledge]

Below

Hakeem
Robinson
Malone
Barkley
Shaq
Penny
Drexler

Among Hill, Ewing , stockton, Reggie , webber, kemp, payton

[beasted]

OP with the stupid and lazy post. Scottie Pippen played plenty of games without Jordan.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/scottie-pippen-stats-without-jordan


Scottie Pippen averaged 15.0 points, 6.4 rebounds and 5.2 assists in 464 games without Michael Jordan in his career

Why don't you avoid cherry picking and post his year by year stats and results sans Jordan?

[3ba11]

OP with the stupid and lazy post. Scottie Pippen played plenty of games without Jordan.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/scottie-pippen-stats-without-jordan



Why don't you avoid cherry picking and post his year by year stats and results sans Jordan?


Lots of guys would go 2/4 with Wade/Bosh or 1/3 with Kyrie/Love, so Lebron didn't win with anything that others couldn't, whereas MJ won 6 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg - no one else did that more than twice.

So MJ won with what others couldn't and Lebron didn't... :confusedshrug:

[Round Mound]

Pippen was not about stats but about making the team better with his versatility. Scoring is not everything in basketball. His stats without Jordan would look similar to that year and some of the other than what they look while playing second fiddle to Jordan.

[8Ball]

Pippen was not about stats but about making the team better with his versatility. Scoring is not everything in basketball. His stats without Jordan would look similar to that year and some of the other than what they look while playing second fiddle to Jordan.

Jordan stans will use stats to tear Pippen down yet can't explain why Pippen was voted all-nba 1st team 3x and multiple 2nd team all-nba.

People that actually watched Pippen saw a top 5, top 10 player of the 90s.

[RogueBorg]

Wrong.

Bron has the highest PER run in 2009. Jordan never matched that in anything past 1st round

Bron has the 2nd highest PER run at 32 over Jordan's 2nd.

-86 +/-
6 Finals losses
2011
2014
No MVP's in his 30's
No All-Defensive Teams in his 30's
3 years missing the playoffs
2 bronze medals

[RogueBorg]

People that actually watched Pippen saw a top 5, top 10 player of the 90s.

I was living in Chicago and watched him play, he was not a top 10 player in the league throughout the 90's. 1994 yes, not throughout the entire decade. Your statement is null.

[bizil]

When Pip was without MJ, he was a top 10 player in the world. SF wise, the best in the world. Even though Nique was still an alpha dog level scorer, that 93-94 season was his last season in his prime. While Pip was at the peak of his powers. I think Nique's efficiency and rebounding slipped enough for a peak Pip to become the best SF in the world.

Mullin (even though only 30) was past his prime due to injury. Keep in mind, G Hill was coming in the league SOON and took that mantle from Pippen. So for a year or two, Pip was the best at his position in the world. Nique and Mullin were outta the way at this point. Hill still not in the league.

So Pip hit his peak when the Golden Era of SF's was done. Pip entered the league when that era was going on. But he was a young pup at that time. However being the best SF in the world and top 10 player in the league was where Pip was at when MJ was playing baseball. But the SF position WAS IN A TRANSITION during Pip's peak days. The position in terms of depth wasn't nearly as strong as the 80's. IF Pip's prime was in that heyday, he NEVER reaches the top SF in the world status. And certainly NEVER reaches top 10 player in the league status.

[RogueBorg]

When Pip was without MJ, he was a top 10 player in the world. SF wise, the best in the world. Even though Nique was still an alpha dog level scorer, that 93-94 season was his last season in his prime. While Pip was at the peak of his powers. I think Nique's efficiency and rebounding slipped enough for a peak Pip to become the best SF in the world.

Mullin (even though only 30) was past his prime due to injury. Keep in mind, G Hill was coming in the league SOON and took that mantle from Pippen. So for a year or two, Pip was the best at his position in the world. Nique and Mullin were outta the way at this point. Hill still not in the league.

So Pip hit his peak when the Golden Era of SF's was done. Pip entered the league when that era was going on. But he was a young pup at that time. However being the best SF in the world and top 10 player in the league was where Pip was at when MJ was playing baseball. But the SF position WAS IN A TRANSITION during Pip's peak days. The position in terms of depth wasn't nearly as strong as the 80's. IF Pip's prime was in that heyday, he NEVER reaches the top SF in the world status. And certainly NEVER reaches top 10 player in the league status.

Spot on analysis.

[Round Mound]

I wouldn't say top 5 but top 10. That's about right during the 90's.

[BigShotBob]

Pippen was not about stats but about making the team better with his versatility. Scoring is not everything in basketball. His stats without Jordan would look similar to that year and some of the other than what they look while playing second fiddle to Jordan.

Is that why he sat out the game when Phil drew the game winning shot up for Kukoc?

[3ba11]

I wouldn't say top 5 but top 10. That's about right during the 90's.


The OP stats are a garbage peak that everyone exceeded - borderline top 10-15 stats is an absolutely garbage peak compared to......... ANYONE

You think because you posted a long OP of stats that the stats are GOOD?.... That's literally the worst peak of any ATG... Borderline top 10-15 in most stats is an absolutely trash peak- no one viable has a peak so bad as the stats you posted

Pippen's peak of 22/5 with 55 wins is a top 1000 peak...

Imagine if AD or Wade's peak was 22 ppg and borderline top 10 stats - imagine if they cratered a 3-peat dynasty like Pippen did.... Ridiculous... AD, Wade, and Kyrie have higher BPM, PER, and WS/48 than Pippen

[bizil]

Here's the thing about Pip.... The ULTIMATE combo in hoops is having alpha dog scoring ability AND great all around ability as a package. And from there, IF you can play a minimum of three positions at a great level, that's a bonus. And if you are a freakish athlete, that's a bonus. MJ was THE GUY to put all these facets together FIRST. It's THE REASON WHY Bobby Knight said MJ was the best player he EVER SAW before MJ even played an NBA game. A bit later, Drexler came into his own. And was the next guy to put that package together. Not on MJ's level, but gotta give Drexler props for being VERY EARLY on the map for this type of player.

Pip WAS MISSING the great scoring element. He had all the other facets I just mentioned. Hell while MJ redefined the SG spot, Pip later did it at the SF. Thus becoming the foundation of the point forward superstars we saw later in G Hill and Bron. Thing is Bron and Hill ALSO had the alpha dog scoring ability to be the best player on the planet. Hill VERY WELL could have been that at one point if he never got hurt. Bron of course reached that pinnacle and is on the Mt. Rushmore of the sport.

Pip NEVER was on that level as a player. BUT he was a SF we had NEVER seen before in the NBA at the time. He was pretty much a mix of Dr. J size and freak athletic ability WITH Hondo's floor game. However when it comes to peak-prime level at the 3 spot, I don't think Pip is top 10 in that regard. GOAT wise, he's a top 6-8 SF. And among all players, Pip anywhere from 30-40 GOAT wise is fair. Pip with alpha dog scoring ability EVEN FROM A MAGIC type of standpoint (19-22 PPG as a pass first player BUT could turn into alpha dog scorer at the drop of a hat) would have had him as ARGUABLY the GOAT SF at one point due to his ring count. And redefining his position!

[Round Mound]

Here's the thing about Pip.... The ULTIMATE combo in hoops is having alpha dog scoring ability AND great all around ability as a package. And from there, IF you can play a minimum of three positions at a great level, that's a bonus. And if you are a freakish athlete, that's a bonus. MJ was THE GUY to put all these facets together FIRST. It's THE REASON WHY Bobby Knight said MJ was the best player he EVER SAW before MJ even played an NBA game. A bit later, Drexler came into his own. And was the next guy to put that package together. Not on MJ's level, but gotta give Drexler props for being VERY EARLY on the map for this type of player.

Pip WAS MISSING the great scoring element. He had all the other facets I just mentioned. Hell while MJ redefined the SG spot, Pip later did it at the SF. Thus becoming the foundation of the point forward superstars we saw later in G Hill and Bron. Thing is Bron and Hill ALSO had the alpha dog scoring ability to be the best player on the planet. Hill VERY WELL could have been that at one point if he never got hurt. Bron of course reached that pinnacle and is on the Mt. Rushmore of the sport.

Pip NEVER was on that level as a player. BUT he was a SF we had NEVER seen before in the NBA at the time. He was pretty much a mix of Dr. J size and freak athletic ability WITH Hondo's floor game. However when it comes to peak-prime level at the 3 spot, I don't think Pip is top 10 in that regard. GOAT wise, he's a top 6-8 SF. And among all players, Pip anywhere from 30-40 GOAT wise is fair. Pip with alpha dog scoring ability EVEN FROM A MAGIC type of standpoint (19-22 PPG as a pass first player BUT could turn into alpha dog scorer at the drop of a hat) would have had him as ARGUABLY the GOAT SF at one point due to his ring count. And redefining his position!

:applause:

[Baller789]

Bran stans shook.

[ELITEpower23]

https://media.giphy.com/media/1R3Plhl2ttLZm/giphy.gif

Then proceeds to tell Spike Lee to sit his ass down

https://media.giphy.com/media/t9ctG5MZhyyU8/giphy.gif

Pippen ain't EASY.

[2much_knowledge]

Bran stans shook.

Too much detailed, neutral , agenda free analysis in one page to process

[hateraid]

Too much detailed, neutral , agenda free analysis in one page to process

Great insight. Way to see you can contribute to a discussion outside of Lebron.

[TheGoatest]

I wouldn't say top 5 but top 10. That's about right during the 90's.

Only Olajuwon was for sure a better player than Pippen. Especially if you consider defense.
But then again, Olajuwon also regularly beat and outplayed Jordan whenever they met.

[Baller789]

Too much detailed, neutral , agenda free analysis in one page to process

You know they're beat when they can't coherently refute the facts presented to them.
:pimp:

[Baller789]

Only Olajuwon was for sure a better player than Pippen. Especially if you consider defense.
But then again, Olajuwon also regularly beat and outplayed Jordan whenever they met.

Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson all clearly better than Pippen dude.

You cappin' hard.

[FireDavidKahn]

There is only a small sample of Pippen's numbers without Jordan for 1 full season and some of the other season.

Pippen's REAL LEVEL without Jordan:

1993-94:

22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG, 2.9 SPG (how many forwards of his era averaged that?) and 0.8 BPG

1994-95:

21.4 PPG on 48.0% FG, 8.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.9 SPG (Lead The League) and 1.1 BPG

Player Efficiency Rating

1990-91 NBA 20.6 (20th)
1991-92 NBA 21.5 (13th)
1993-94 NBA 23.2 (4th)
1994-95 NBA 22.6 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 21.0 (15th)
1996-97 NBA 21.3 (17th)
1997-98 NBA 20.4

Win Shares

1990-91 NBA 11.2 (13th)
1991-92 NBA 12.7 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 11.2 (9th)
1994-95 NBA 11.8 (7th)
1995-96 NBA 12.3 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 13.1 (5th)
Career NBA 125.1 (41st)

Defensive Rating

1987-88 NBA 103.5 (15th)
1990-91 NBA 101.7 (8th)
1991-92 NBA 102.2 (8th)
1993-94 NBA 96.9 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 98.3 (1st)
1995-96 NBA 100.7

Defensive Win Shares

1989-90 NBA 4.3 (12th)
1990-91 NBA 5.4 (6th)
1991-92 NBA 5.5 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.8 (11th)
1993-94 NBA 6.0 (7th)
1994-95 NBA 6.7 (2nd)
1995-96 NBA 5.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.2 (11th)
1999-00 NBA 4.4 (11th)
Career NBA 67.3 (18th)

Box Plus/Minus

1990-91 NBA 5.8 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.1 (6th)
1992-93 NBA 4.0 (14th)
1993-94 NBA 7.7 (3rd)
1994-95 NBA 7.5 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 6.3 (8th)
1996-97 NBA 5.7 (9th)
1997-98 NBA 5.0 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.6 (20th)
Career NBA 4.1 (34th)

Value Over Replacement Player

1990-91 NBA 5.9 (10th)
1991-92 NBA 6.4 (5th)
1992-93 NBA 4.7 (9th)
1993-94 NBA 6.8 (5th)
1994-95 NBA 7.2 (3rd)
1995-96 NBA 5.9 (7th)
1996-97 NBA 6.1 (8th)
1999-00 NBA 3.9 (19th)
Career NBA 63.2 (23rd)

*Notice the underlined thats Pippen WITHOUT Jordan.

A Top 10 Player of the 90's....
This doesn't even take into account his GOAT level defense

[8Ball]

I was living in Chicago and watched him play, he was not a top 10 player in the league throughout the 90's. 1994 yes, not throughout the entire decade. Your statement is null.

You were wrong back in the 90s all the way up till today.

Here is what actual basketball observers said about Pippen in the 90s:

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

Your statement is null.

[Micku]

Here's the thing about Pip.... The ULTIMATE combo in hoops is having alpha dog scoring ability AND great all around ability as a package. And from there, IF you can play a minimum of three positions at a great level, that's a bonus. And if you are a freakish athlete, that's a bonus. MJ was THE GUY to put all these facets together FIRST. It's THE REASON WHY Bobby Knight said MJ was the best player he EVER SAW before MJ even played an NBA game. A bit later, Drexler came into his own. And was the next guy to put that package together. Not on MJ's level, but gotta give Drexler props for being VERY EARLY on the map for this type of player.

Pip WAS MISSING the great scoring element. He had all the other facets I just mentioned. Hell while MJ redefined the SG spot, Pip later did it at the SF. Thus becoming the foundation of the point forward superstars we saw later in G Hill and Bron. Thing is Bron and Hill ALSO had the alpha dog scoring ability to be the best player on the planet. Hill VERY WELL could have been that at one point if he never got hurt. Bron of course reached that pinnacle and is on the Mt. Rushmore of the sport.

Pip NEVER was on that level as a player. BUT he was a SF we had NEVER seen before in the NBA at the time. He was pretty much a mix of Dr. J size and freak athletic ability WITH Hondo's floor game. However when it comes to peak-prime level at the 3 spot, I don't think Pip is top 10 in that regard. GOAT wise, he's a top 6-8 SF. And among all players, Pip anywhere from 30-40 GOAT wise is fair. Pip with alpha dog scoring ability EVEN FROM A MAGIC type of standpoint (19-22 PPG as a pass first player BUT could turn into alpha dog scorer at the drop of a hat) would have had him as ARGUABLY the GOAT SF at one point due to his ring count. And redefining his position!


Totally. I think you hit the nail on the hard for me for both of your posts on this topic.

I also think Pippen impact may not all within the stats too. Some of the stuff can't be quantify, but you can say that with all players. When he came to his own, he is really good. He just didn't have the scoring ability as much as his successors did of that type of style. The all around player. In turn, they also didn't have the defensive ability as good as he did. You could argue it's era as well. It's easier for him to play defense and harder for the offense in the 90s and early 00s than 10s and onwards to the current era.

Although with Pippen, I don't think he was ever the Kobe lvl in his era or even the Kareem/Magic at their peak. I do feel like his style do compliment MJ style and fit within the triangle very well.

[Micku]

You were wrong back in the 90s all the way up till today.

Here is what actual basketball observers said about Pippen in the 90s:

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

Your statement is null.

Just cuz you are first team of the All-NBA, it doesn't mean the players on the second All-NBA aren't considered better in other positions. For example, in 1994, David Robinson was the second All-NBA team. He got more votes than Pippen did in the MVP. Latrell Sprewell got the first team in the All-NBA that year too, but he wasn't better than Shaq who got the third team. You could say b-ball observers think he was the best at his position or one of the best Forwards in the game. But not a top 5 players cuz you could have guards that might better, centers, etc. Not to say Pippen wasn't a top 5 player in 94, but just to say that other ppl in other positions were considered better.

[3ba11]

https://media.giphy.com/media/1R3Plhl2ttLZm/giphy.gif

Then proceeds to tell Spike Lee to sit his ass down

https://media.giphy.com/media/t9ctG5MZhyyU8/giphy.gif

Pippen ain't EASY.


Yes, that's what Pippen was - a dunker:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s


His performance and peak wouldn't be top 100 player without MJ and the 6-ring count.. MJ won with role players - that's how it should be viewed and that's what the stats/performance of the cast shows

[bizil]

Totally. I think you hit the nail on the hard for me for both of your posts on this topic.

I also think Pippen impact may not all within the stats too. Some of the stuff can't be quantify, but you can say that with all players. When he came to his own, he is really good. He just didn't have the scoring ability as much as his successors did of that type of style. The all around player. In turn, they also didn't have the defensive ability as good as he did. You could argue it's era as well. It's easier for him to play defense and harder for the offense in the 90s and early 00s than 10s and onwards to the current era.

Although with Pippen, I don't think he was ever the Kobe lvl in his era or even the Kareem/Magic at their peak. I do feel like his style do compliment MJ style and fit within the triangle very well.

Yep Pip was indeed the perfect complement to MJ. Pip’s excellent floor game enabled MJ to save energy to dominate games scoring. MJ was the ultimate alpha dog. So Pip’s 19-21 PPG was more than enough for sure. And the fact BOTH could play or defend PG, SG, and SF was huge for Bulls. Yet Pip was a pass first guy. And MJ was the ultimate killer! All Pip had to do was come of age as a player. Perfect compliment to MJ!

[3ba11]

Yep Pip was indeed the perfect complement to MJ.





Shaq is a better compliment to MJ... Or Curry... Or Kareem... or AD.... MJ wins more, earlier and easier with tons of guys... guys that actually dominated and wouldn't force MJ to average 41 in a Finals (under 90 pace) or need the goat stats/burden to win chips.

You guys are ridiculous - it's okay to hurt pippen's feelings and say he sucked. because he did... any sidekick that was carried to 6 chips without ever dominating or hitting a big shot is a bum...

Ultimately, nobody won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals - yet MJ has 6 Finals with pippen peaking at 21 ppg and 0/6 in fmvp (worst-ever sidekick)

[3ba11]

.
MJ/Pip had the biggest statistical gap ever between 1 & 2 options:


PLAYOFFS


94' Hakeem.... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry........ 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 13.8 ppg*
GAP.................. 11.0...........3.5........... 1.2............ 0.056........ 15.1

93' Jordan...... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen...... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP.................. 13.2........... 9.6........... 2.1............ 0.187....... 15.0

11' Dirk........... 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry.......... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP................... 4.9............1.1........... 0.5............ 0.031........ 10.2

92' Jordan...... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen...... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP.................. 7.1............ 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048........ 15.0

91' Jordan...... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen...... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP.................. 10.0........... 8.1........... 1.4............ 0.136........ 9.5

96' Jordan...... 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen...... 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................... 7.3........... 2.9............ 0.6............ 0.122....... 13.8

97' Jordan...... 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen...... 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP.................. 9.1........... 4.8............ 1.0............ 0.090....... 11.9

98' Jordan...... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen...... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP.................. 8.7........... 3.4............ 0.8............ 0.095........ 16.4


* Vernon Maxwell was the Rockets' 2nd leading scorer, so his PPG was used


MJ is #1 all-time in PPG, PER, WS/48, and other key stats while Pippen ranks about 120th in these areas - so there's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option..

Furthermore, nobody won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals - yet MJ has 6 Finals with pippen peaking at 21 ppg and 0/6 in fmvp (worst-ever sidekick)

Ultimately, everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead theam in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES of their career.. This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced and defeated maximum defensive coverage for his entire career, as Kenny Smith points out here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=114s).

[bizil]

Shaq is a better compliment to MJ... Or Curry... Or Kareem... or AD.... MJ wins more, earlier and easier with tons of guys... guys that actually dominated and wouldn't force MJ to average 41 in a Finals (under 90 pace) or need the goat stats/burden to win chips.

You guys are ridiculous - it's okay to hurt pippen's feelings and say he sucked. because he did... any sidekick that was carried to 6 chips without ever dominating or hitting a big shot is a bum...

Ultimately, nobody won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals - yet MJ has 6 Finals with pippen peaking at 21 ppg and 0/6 in fmvp (worst-ever sidekick)

Nah your ass DON'T GET IT! When I said Pip was the perfect compliment, it's BECAUSE they WEREN'T REDUNDANT in their combination. Two TOTALLY different players in terms of offensive mindset. Pip was pass first yet could get you 20 PPG. And he wasn't an alpha dog scorer. So scoring ego ON TOP OF IT wouldn't be an issue.

BUT floor game wise, they were VERY SIMILAR in terms of passing, rebounding, and defending their position. Before on the Bulls, MJ HAD TO BE the top scorer AND the top floor game guy. With Pippen, his floor game was JUST AS GOOD as MJ's. MJ as the best floor game EVER among SG's. Pip's floor game is among the top 3 ever among the SF's. So Pip could be the top floor game guy. That DIRECTLY saved MJ so much energy. From there u throw in the triangle offense. The result is MJ's KILLER INSTINCT (already GOD LEVEL) actually got even MORE DANGEROUS! Because Pip along with the triangle offense ENABLED him to dominate scoring without expending so much energy. OFFENSIVELY AND DEFENSIVELY!!!

Shaq WOULDN'T DIRECTLY enable MJ to save so much energy on both sides of the court. Even though MJ and Shaq would be unstoppable of course. DOMINANCE and COMPLIMENT are two different things. Of course MJ and Shaq BY FAR would be the most dominant duo ever. But as a COMPLIMENT two way, mindset, and versatility wise, Pip was an awesome compliment. Was the ONLY PERIMETER PLAYER who had a floor game on par with MJ at the time. And from there would still average 20 PPG HAPPILY as a pass first point forward. Not WORRIED AT ALL about MJ being MJ.

In other words, MJ DIDN'T need to change his playing style ONE BIT playing Pip scoring ego wise. And MJ's floor game still flourished. Just that MJ DIDN'T have to defend the top perimeter scorer on the other team. Cause Pip could handle that now. MJ DIDN'T need to be the primary facilitator anymore. Pip could handle that. Shaq couldn't help MJ in ANY OF THOSE AREAS! Plus scoring ego wise, their could be some bumps in the road with MJ and Shaq. OF COURSE they still dominate. PLUS it wouldn't be a DIRECT COMPLIMENT TO MJ's skillset. ONCE AGAIN, dominance and compliment are two different things!

[Baller789]

I was living in Chicago and watched him play, he was not a top 10 player in the league throughout the 90's. 1994 yes, not throughout the entire decade. Your statement is null.


You were wrong back in the 90s all the way up till today.

Here is what actual basketball observers said about Pippen in the 90s:

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)

Your statement is null.

It's funny how a Lebrontard who only Googles stuff claims to be a better source than someone who has lived through the experience.

But whatever, carry on.

:cletus:

[kawhileonard2]

We saw his level once he left. He lost in round 1 with Prime Hakeem and Barkley on his squad.

[expansionera]

We saw his level once he left. He lost in round 1 with Prime Hakeem and Barkley on his squad.

Went the distance with prime Shaq and Kobe as an elder God, and led his team to the second round loss to the eventual Finals runner up. Did way ****ing more than bitch ass Jordan ever could without Scottie

[theman93]

Went the distance with prime Shaq and Kobe as an elder God, and led his team to the second round loss to the eventual Finals runner up. Did way ****ing more than bitch ass Jordan ever could without Scottie

Careful, your agenda's showing