Would you build around AD or Tatum?

[iamgine]

Lets say you are given a choice between 23 yrs old AD and 23 yrs old Tatum as your franchise player today. Same health, same salary. Who'd you build around?

[Akeem34TheDream]

AD easy

[Phoenix]

Of those choices assuming they're max contracts, neither. I'd spread the money across 3 'very good' players first.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum isn't that level of talent. Really is a compliment to him that anyone would consider this question.

[ImKobe]

AD and it's not even close. He's better on both ends of the court.


Of those choices assuming they're max contracts, neither. I'd spread the money across 3 'very good' players first.

What is "very good" and how do they help lead a team to a championship like AD? If you're saying you'd split his contract money among 3 10-20 million a year guys, that does nothing to build a winning team without a core piece. A solid all-star level player makes 20-30 mil a year at least, even Marcus Smart is getting 20+ a year. AD's contract currently is at 35 and goes to the low 40s so he has one of the better contracts in the entire league (minus the rookie deals).

With AD, you need a solid playmaker and some good/great perimeter defenders who can make 3s consistently and you have a 50+ win team & a contender, unfortunately he's only had that for 2 years out of his entire career and only came once to having something similar to that in NO in 2018 but that team didn't have an 8-man rotation, the bench was wack and him and Jrue were their only consistent above-average defensive players and he did better against the GSW than Lebron that year.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Of those choices assuming they're max contracts, neither. I'd spread the money across 3 'very good' players first.

LA gave up Ball and Ingram and let Randle walk for cap space (or something like that) do in a way LA made that very decision. If you already have stars you can maybe make that decision if the role-players are a great fit but generally speaking it's harder and more important to get stars.

[Phoenix]

LA gave up Ball and Ingram and let Randle walk for cap space (or something like that) do in a way LA made that very decision. If you already have stars you can maybe make that decision if the role-players are a great fit but generally speaking it's harder and more important to get stars.

Sure, but the question is would I choose one of those two stars to build around. My answer is no based on the choices in front of me. If the question was something like, would you build around 23 year old Lebron,23 year old Shaq, 23 year old KD, 23 year old Curry, and of course this question is asked with the idea of knowing what their careers become.... well then yeah, you throw the kitchen sink at them and build outwards. But no, I'm not there when it comes to AD. Without that trade to the Lakers he's probably still on the Pelicans, dropping 28/12 and either getting bounced out of the first round or not making it at all. Tatum as of now is a notch below that so he shouldn't even be in the conversation here( which is a compliment to AD in this context, before ImKobe gets another hissy fit that I'm 'hating').

[Phoenix]

AD and it's not even close. He's better on both ends of the court.



What is "very good" and how do they help lead a team to a championship like AD? If you're saying you'd split his contract money among 3 10-20 million a year guys, that does nothing to build a winning team without a core piece. A solid all-star level player makes 20-30 mil a year at least, even Marcus Smart is getting 20+ a year. AD's contract currently is at 35 and goes to the low 40s so he has one of the better contracts in the entire league (minus the rookie deals).

With AD, you need a solid playmaker and some good/great perimeter defenders who can make 3s consistently and you have a 50+ win team & a contender, unfortunately he's only had that for 2 years out of his entire career and only came once to having something similar to that in NO in 2018 but that team didn't have an 8-man rotation, the bench was wack and him and Jrue were their only consistent above-average defensive players and he did better against the GSW than Lebron that year.

Do you think AD is leading the Lakers to the 2020 chip without Lebron? We're pretending like AD just showed up in 2020 and we didn't get to see this guy lead a bunch of sub 40 win teams in New Orleans( and let's not act like that team was completely devoid of talent. In basketball we all know a singular dominant talent has more impact than in other team sports). He's also not the most durable of players so you can fellate him as much as you like, if you gave me max dollars to spend to build a championship core, he's not one of the first guys I'd go for. You gonna be ok with that?

[Full Court]

Tatum. AD is the better and more impactful player, but I'd rather build around the one who's not a fragile, whiney, ***** who lacks heart.

[ImKobe]

Do you think AD is leading the Lakers to the 2020 chip without Lebron? We're pretending like AD just showed up in 2020 and we didn't get to see this guy lead a bunch of sub 40 win teams in New Orleans( and let's not act like that team was completely devoid of talent. In basketball we all know a singular dominant talent has more impact than in other team sports). He's also not the most durable of players so you can fellate him as much as you like, if you gave me max dollars to spend to build a championship core, he's not one of the first guys I'd go for. You gonna be ok with that?

This question was about AD or Tatum and you went with "neither" and would rather have 3 "very good guys". Davis has had one season where he was significantly injured in the last 5 years, but that's not durable enough. Go look at the NO rosters again and tell me which ones underachieved or were bad because of Davis. I'll wait.

[Phoenix]

This question was about AD or Tatum and you went with "neither" and would rather have 3 "very good guys". Go look at the NO rosters again and tell me which ones underachieved or were bad because of Davis. I'll wait.

I know what the question was, and I answered it. I already said, none of those Pelicans rosters were 'stacked' but if AD is what you think he is, they should have been better year over year. And once again, not the most durable of players. They had years not even cracking 35 wins FFS. There's a quick reply and more of a regurgitation of what I already said, so I've saved you the trouble of waiting.

[ImKobe]

I know what the question was, and I answered it. I already said, none of those Pelicans rosters were 'stacked' but if AD is what you think he is, they should have been better year over year. And once again, not the most durable of players. There's a quick reply and more of a regurgitation of what I already said, so I've saved you the trouble of waiting.

How? They opened up the 2017 season 0 - 8 and he had B2B 45/15 games in losses.. if you can't beat an average Denver team with AD putting up 50/17/5/5/4, maybe you're just not good enough as a team?

Those teams were too mediocre to compete in a stacked WC, it is that it is.

[Phoenix]

How? They opened up the 2017 season 0 - 8 and he had B2B 45/15 games in losses.. if you can't beat an average Denver team with AD putting up 50/17/5/5/4, maybe you're just not good enough as a team?

Those teams were too mediocre to compete in a stacked WC, it is that it is.

No-one is arguing his ability to put up stats. Nobody is saying the Pelicans had the talent to compete with the west upper echelon but the Pelicans were NOT that devoid of talent to be hitting sub 40 win seasons for half of AD's tenure. If I want to hit 40 wins a season I don't need to spend max dollars on one player. And since this is a hypothetical since nobody here is a GM or will be in position to make these decisions, why do you even care to keep the argument going? I gave you my answer dude, get the fukk over it being a different opinion from you.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Sure, but the question is would I choose one of those two stars to build around. My answer is no based on the choices in front of me. If the question was something like, would you build around 23 year old Lebron,23 year old Shaq, 23 year old KD, 23 year old Curry, and of course this question is asked with the idea of knowing what their careers become.... well then yeah, you throw the kitchen sink at them and build outwards. But no, I'm not there when it comes to AD. Without that trade to the Lakers he's probably still on the Pelicans, dropping 28/12 and either getting bounced out of the first round or not making it at all. Tatum as of now is a notch below that so he shouldn't even be in the conversation here( which is a compliment to AD in this context, before ImKobe gets another hissy fit that I'm 'hating').

Who would be your example of a 'very good' player? Davis is easily worth 3 guys on Smarts level but not 3 guys of Khris Middleton value

[TheCorporation]

Tatum. AD is the better and more impactful player, but I'd rather build around the one who's not a fragile, whiney, ***** who lacks heart.

1st time I've ever agreed with you.

AD had a higher ceiling but those Pelican teams went no where. Kid has no heart.

[TheCorporation]

How? They opened up the 2017 season 0 - 8 and he had B2B 45/15 games in losses.. if you can't beat an average Denver team with AD putting up 50/17/5/5/4, maybe you're just not good enough as a team?

Those teams were too mediocre to compete in a stacked WC, it is that it is.

Now say that for the Cavs from 2006 to 2010

[Phoenix]

Who would be your example of a 'very good' player? Davis is easily worth 3 guys on Smarts level but not 3 guys of Khris Middleton value

I don't know what salaries guys like Middleton command but he would fall into my category of a 'very good' player, or a Kemba Walker( until this year, I haven't seen the Knicks so don't know what's up with his production drop-off). What does Jimmy Butler command salary-wise( he's better than the aforementioned but not top 10 per se)?

Hell, the 2019 Clippers won 48 games without a single all-star or all-NBA player. I mean, there are teams in the league who have won 45-50 games a season without having a top 10 player on it. Obviously a chip is the goal but again, if the argument from ImKobe is 'AD shouldn't catch shit for not elevating mediocre rosters' and anywhere from 34-48 wins is the ceiling in that context, ok fine........... but I don't need to compromise my payroll on him. If the goal is fielding a competitive team there's more than one way to skin that cat. I would construct a roster based on depth, a couple of dependable( non-injury prone) 'B-listers' and see who that attracts in terms of A-listers during free agency. Again, this is based on the options you're giving me.

[Jasper]

the old days - most would immediately say the taller of the two.

Not any more -
I would take TATUM 100%.
First off the game has evolved to a jump shooting era, even though Giannis is proving you can do it his way.
Tatum is built much more durable , and his outside shot is pure.
(he has some off nights ) but he is very consistent IMO.
He seldom is injured , and plays for the most part in a team concept.

Let me give you an example :
If you switched Tatum for Middleton The Bucks would still be NBA champs as him being second option.
If AD switched for Giannis , bucks lose .
(Even if he was second option and switched out Middleton , bucks lose.)

Can't make it any more clearer.

[kawhileonard2]

Lets say you are given a choice between 23 yrs old AD and 23 yrs old Tatum as your franchise player today. Same health, same salary. Who'd you build around?

AD no contest

[Full Court]

1st time I've ever agreed with you.


Maybe there's hope for you then.

[ImKobe]

No-one is arguing his ability to put up stats. Nobody is saying the Pelicans had the talent to compete with the west upper echelon but the Pelicans were NOT that devoid of talent to be hitting sub 40 win seasons for half of AD's tenure. If I want to hit 40 wins a season I don't need to spend max dollars on one player. And since this is a hypothetical since nobody here is a GM or will be in position to make these decisions, why do you even care to keep the argument going? I gave you my answer dude, get the fukk over it being a different opinion from you.

Ok, so you agree with me but still think they should have been winning 45+ games every year with all the injuries to Davis & Jrue and with no depth..

I just don't understand the logic here. You'd rather have three starters/role players for AD's salary and build a team around them?

OP did not start this 3 player bullshit either, he gave you a choice between the two and you can't even pick 1 of the 2 lmao.


Now say that for the Cavs from 2006 to 2010

Cavs had a decent team for a weak EC in the mid-2000s.

[Phoenix]

Ok, so you agree with me but still think they should have been winning 45+ games every year with all the injuries to Davis & Jrue and with no depth..

I just don't understand the logic here. You'd rather have three starters/role players for AD's salary and build a team around them?

OP did not start this 3 player bullshit either, he gave you a choice between the two and you can't even pick 1 of the 2 lmao.



.

Where do see me saying anything about 'role players? I get it.....you want the last word. Just address what the FUKK I actually said or go bother someone else.

You agree that AD is injury prone and this is a viable reason to consider whether I would throw max dollars at him then? I may have undersold how much even 'good' players make nowadays so it may not be 3 very good players, maybe it's two. Bottomline, I wouldn't give AD a max contract. If the best I'm going to get from him is 45 wins I can get 2 good players, a deep bench for that. Why would I over-invest here? I'll repeat....you gonna be ok with this?

[ImKobe]

Where do see me saying anything about 'role players? I get it.....you want the last word. Just address what the FUKK I actually said or go bother someone else.

You agree that AD is injury prone and this is a viable reason to consider whether I would throw max dollars at him then? I may have undersold how much even 'good' players make nowadays so it may not be 3 very good players, maybe it's two. Bottomline, I wouldn't give AD a max contract. If the best I'm going to get from him is 45 wins I can get 2 good players, a deep bench for that. Why would I over-invest here? I'll repeat....you gonna be ok with this?

Like I said, AD's been healthy 4 of the last 5 seasons (2017-19 in NO, 2020 in LAL) so that's not what I'd be worried about if I had him available here. It's a no-brainer to sign one of the 5-10 best players in the league (who's not even 29 yet) who can perform at an MVP level in the Playoffs to a max deal. I'd also take Tatum (a star with PO experience and who's just 23 years old and is built for today's NBA) over just some starter-level players that are available through trades and FA every year.

And the Pelicans did get 3 good players in return for AD (BI, Zo and Hart) AND they tanked in AD's last season (shut him down after the trade request, played him meaningless minutes to avoid getting fined at the end) to land the Zion pick. Have they made the Playoffs? No? Are they even close right now? No.

I just don't understand why you wouldn't answer OP's question and do this 3 player bs. The thread is about building a team around one of these guys, so if you say that you'd rather go with 3 starter-level/good players (which is kind of hard to pull off in the FA at just AD's or Tatum's cap value alone), how would you have more success in building a team? If the goal is to suck and hopefully land another player at Tatum/AD level through the draft and have them on a rookie deal, now we'd be making some sense.

The Pelicans are and will be a trash franchise until they relocate and revamp their FO. Doesn't matter what players they have, they don't know how to build a winning roster. Imagine having BI/Zion/Jrue and messing it up that badly..

[Phoenix]

I just don't understand why you wouldn't answer OP's question and do this 3 player bs. The thread is about building a team around one of these guys, so if you say that you'd rather go with 3 starter-level/good players (which is kind of hard to pull off in the FA at just AD's or Tatum's cap value alone), how would you have more success in building a team? If the goal is to suck and hopefully land another player at Tatum/AD level through the draft and have them on a rookie deal, now we'd be making some sense.



This is the part of your post I'm expending the energy to reply to, because this shit is becoming redundant and you seem more apt to do the long drawn out arguments about shit that ultimately doesn't matter much. I've given the reasons why I wouldn't build around either. You don't agree with them. Great, don't care. The fact that you don't understand why I would answer differently. as if I'm under some obligation to reply in a way that meets your approval, is your hurdle to overcome. I didn't choose either, I don't choose either. You disagree. Get over it, because I can assure you I'm over your disagreement.

[ImKobe]

This is the part of your post I'm expending the energy to reply to, because this shit is becoming redundant and you seem more apt to do the long drawn out arguments about shit that ultimately doesn't matter much. I've given the reasons why I wouldn't build around either. You don't agree with them. Great, don't care. The fact that you don't understand why I would answer differently. as if I'm under some obligation to reply in a way that meets your approval, is your hurdle to overcome. I didn't choose either, I don't choose either. You disagree. Get over it, because I can assure you I'm over your disagreement.

So you can't give me a logical reason as to why one would pick 3 starters over a franchise player. Got it. Thanks.

[Phoenix]

So you can't give me a logical reason as to why one would pick 3 starters over a franchise player. Got it. Thanks.

I gave you the reasons. Reasons that a few others agree with( not that it validates my argument), merely that your contention that they're illogical is just that......YOUR contention.

Now that we've both got it, I think we're done here. Or you got more 'last word' bullshit you need to get off your chest?

[iamgine]

I don't know what salaries guys like Middleton command but he would fall into my category of a 'very good' player, or a Kemba Walker( until this year, I haven't seen the Knicks so don't know what's up with his production drop-off). What does Jimmy Butler command salary-wise( he's better than the aforementioned but not top 10 per se)?

Hell, the 2019 Clippers won 48 games without a single all-star or all-NBA player. I mean, there are teams in the league who have won 45-50 games a season without having a top 10 player on it. Obviously a chip is the goal but again, if the argument from ImKobe is 'AD shouldn't catch shit for not elevating mediocre rosters' and anywhere from 34-48 wins is the ceiling in that context, ok fine........... but I don't need to compromise my payroll on him. If the goal is fielding a competitive team there's more than one way to skin that cat. I would construct a roster based on depth, a couple of dependable( non-injury prone) 'B-listers' and see who that attracts in terms of A-listers during free agency. Again, this is based on the options you're giving me.

Middleton & Kemba salary is $35M each.

Players who are around a third of AD's salary are people like Dwight Powell, Josh Hart, Kelly Oubre, Luke Kennard, etc.

[72-10]

Lets say you are given a choice between 23 yrs old AD and 23 yrs old Tatum as your franchise player today. Same health, same salary. Who'd you build around?

Laura, please kill yourself.

[72-10]

So you can't give me a logical reason as to why one would pick 3 starters over a franchise player. Got it. Thanks.

Bryan, please kill yourself.

[72-10]

the old days - most would immediately say the taller of the two.

Not any more -
I would take TATUM 100%.
First off the game has evolved to a jump shooting era, even though Giannis is proving you can do it his way.
Tatum is built much more durable , and his outside shot is pure.
(he has some off nights ) but he is very consistent IMO.
He seldom is injured , and plays for the most part in a team concept.

Let me give you an example :
If you switched Tatum for Middleton The Bucks would still be NBA champs as him being second option.
If AD switched for Giannis , bucks lose .
(Even if he was second option and switched out Middleton , bucks lose.)

Can't make it any more clearer.

Griffin, please kill yourself.

[72-10]

Tatum isn't that level of talent. Really is a compliment to him that anyone would consider this question.

Bill, please kill yourself.

[72-10]

1st time I've ever agreed with you.

AD had a higher ceiling but those Pelican teams went no where. Kid has no heart.

Dan, please kill yourself.

[Sulico]

AD ofcourse. Tatum never reached his ceiling and it looks like he never will.

[Phoenix]

Middleton & Kemba salary is $35M each.

Players who are around a third of AD's salary are people like Dwight Powell, Josh Hart, Kelly Oubre, Luke Kennard, etc.

Yeah, I don't keep up on player salaries like that so I didn't realize that Kris Middleton makes the same as AD( which clearly is not equal value). I'm looking at player salary and some names near the top make wayyy too much. John Wall # 3 at 44m? Come on....

Montrezl Harrel, dropping 17/9 for 9.7m. Reggie Jackson doing 18ppg for 10.4, those are pretty good 'bang for buck' pickups.

[Wally450]

Tatum. AD is the better and more impactful player, but I'd rather build around the one who's not a fragile, whiney, ***** who lacks heart.

Tatum complains all the time, and he's been called out for lack of heart even earlier this season.

[iamgine]

Yeah, I don't keep up on player salaries like that so I didn't realize that Kris Middleton makes the same as AD( which clearly is not equal value). I'm looking at player salary and some names near the top make wayyy too much. John Wall # 3 at 44m? Come on....

Montrezl Harrel, dropping 17/9 for 9.7m. Reggie Jackson doing 18ppg for 10.4, those are pretty good 'bang for buck' pickups.
Not sure even those kind of perfect pickups are worth AD.

[ImKobe]

Not sure even those kind of perfect pickups are worth AD.

They're not, you can't build a title team around them. You can around AD.

[000]

I actually agree with Phoenix here. I would rather take a few good players over either of those guys, ESPECIALLY AD.

For example:

Lonzo Ball
Brandon Ingram
Josh Hart

Would definitely be much better.

I already said this in the other thread but it's the same thread as this one anyway

[ImKobe]

I actually agree with Phoenix here. I would rather take a few good players over either of those guys, ESPECIALLY AD.

For example:

Lonzo Ball
Brandon Ingram
Josh Hart

Would definitely be much better.

I already said this in the other thread but it's the same thread as this one anyway

Pelicans did that. Surely that worked out, especially with drafting a generational talent in Zion? :kobe:

[Phoenix]

Not sure even those kind of perfect pickups are worth AD.


The limiting part of the discussion for me is that neither AD or Tatum I would pick as my lead player, hence my initial reply, outside of being figuratively held at knifepoint in this thread to decide between only these two. At which point the answer is obviously AD, but I don't think the person being matched against him(Tatum) makes this much of a question.

[000]

Pelicans did that. Surely that worked out, especially with drafting a generational talent in Zion? :kobe:Dunno what you mean because I nevr watch NBA. However if this did happen then I'm sure this versatile trio was vastly more impactful than AD.

[ImKobe]

Dunno what you mean because I nevr watch NBA. However if this did happen then I'm sure this versatile trio was vastly more impactful than AD.

Me neither, but surely 3 good players (1 of them being an All-Star in BI) + a #1 overall pick resulted in more success than just AD alone? Right?