What other player was as impressive as LeBron James 2017/2018 PO in terms of offense?

[Micku]

I was just thinking about it randomly. I know the forum is full with LeBron or MJ threads, but this is one I always keep going back.

In terms of eye test and looking at the stats, it's really one of the best offensive runs I ever seen from a player. It seems like his jumper was on throughout the playoffs. And when LeBron jumper is on, I sometimes think he is really either the best ever or just the best offensive player the league has ever seen due to his crazy athletic ability to finish inside the paint so well. And the style of 3 and D guys and the analytical era really suits his play style the best. But then I come back to earth, and just say he is one of the best.

But his 17 and 18 run, I felt like he got hot at the right time. He was already really smart to hide his weaknesses on offense and take the right shots and don't force anything, but it seemed like he almost didn't have a weakness due to how well he was shooting the ball. And with his passing ability, it was amazing to watch.

What that said tho, I think it's a bit of recency bias on my part. When I go back and watch other games, I realize how great some of the offensive players were. Three other players come to mind tho. And I know that it's unfair to compare across eras, but it's fun to do it. And you could adjust it to the their respectful era and make an argument for it.

1. MJ. Of course him. But from 88-early 90s, I don't think the newer generation really realize how much of a destructive force he was...at least before he went against the Pistons. The dude average 45 ppg on 56% against the Cavs in 88. And in the Cavs in 89, the dude carried averaging like 40ppg again. And he destroyed Miami too in the first round with in averaging like 45 ppg on 60% shooting, but this was in 92. And he did it without really dominating the ball. He pretty much destroyed every team except for the Pistons and the Knicks (90s) who contained him as much as they could in that span before his first retirement.
So pretty much pick 88-93.

2. Magic Johnson. I feel like he doesn't get talked as much anymore. While ppl do acknowledge him, there isn't much to say about him as much as MJ or LBJ. But whenever I watch him, his IQ on offense exceeds both of them in terms of getting everyone involved and getting a shot for himself imo. His impact isn't really on his scoring or even his passing, though he is the king of that and I never seen anyone pass better. He is pretty much the king of pace. He could go fast or slow. And he is insanely efficient. I seen games from 87-91, and I would say that his 90 version is pretty underrated. He could score if he needs to, but that isn't really his style compared to MJ or LBJ. And his shot selection is the best I ever seen from a player. He probably the best offensive player on here that could take like only 10 shots. But Magic from 85 till 91 I could see, but like I said, I think his 90 version is pretty damn good.

3. Shaq. He commands more attention than anybody I ever seen play, and it still don't matter. I would say his best run was in 2000. Similar to LeBron, his athletic ability at the paint just exceeds the weaknesses he may have. But it also combined with his footwork and touch around the rim. He has some nice post moves too.

I'm not too sure about any other player, but I can see arguments. I would have to see more Hakeem in 87 to see how impressive he was. He shot like 62%. KD in 12 and with the Warriors, but the GSW I personally don't think it's as impressive mainly cuz of the attention that Curry gets. It could be unfair to my part tho. You have Dirk in 2011 that was insanely impressive, but the finals he struggled to score as efficiently till clutch time if I can recall.

I haven't seen enough of Kareem and Wilt to really say. I saw a Kareem in 71 and 72, but I would have to go back watch some more footage. Wilt too.

Who else had an impressive PO run? I feel like LeBron/MJ/Magic/Shaq are the cream of the crop in terms offensive dominance in the POs. Kareem is in there too, but I just need to see more games. And I feel like you can argue KD. Bird? Nash? Mchale? Barkley?

Is there a player I'm forgetting about? A player where their offense is pretty underrated and don't show up in the stat sheet?

Oooh. Kawhi. I forgot about him. In 17 and in 21, I felt like he was really on a row. Shame he got injured in both POs.

[coastalmarker99]

Kareem in 1971 and Wilt in 1964.


Also Kareem in 1977.


No other all-time great has had a weaker supporting cast around him in the playoffs than 1964 Wilt. The Warriors finished 3rd in SRS with a rookie Nate Thurmond and players like Wayne Hightower, Tom Meschery, and Guy Rodgers leading in shots.

Wilt had a .325 WS/48 in the regular season (3rd all-time), and his .323 WS/48 playoff run is 4th all-time in the Shot Clock Era.

In the WDF, with his team playing poorly, Wilt put up 38.6 PPG on a +7.8 rTS%.



In the Finals, he finished with 29.2 PPG on a +2.4 rTS% against the greatest defence of all time. Only one other player (Tom Meschery) shot above 35 FG% in that series.



The mixture of scoring, passing, rebounding, and defence that 1964 Wilt provided was so impactful to his team

[72-10]

I can't recall that season as vividly as coastalmarker99 can, but I'll get back to you when I've done more research on it.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Those years were a little overrated because 2017 he's playing with a top 5 goat level offensive point guard in Kyrie and 2018 was mostly blowouts in the finals.

I would take kawhi in 2019 easily as he averaged 31PPG on 62% TS against embiid, simmons, butler, lopez, giannis, draymond, iguoudala

All guys are all defense and even a couple defensive player of the year winners in draymond/giannis

Also kawhi didn't have anybody in the same stratosphere with Irving offensive talents aka 2001 midget kobe Irving

[SATAN]

I was just thinking about it randomly. I know the forum is full with LeBron or MJ threads, but this is one I always keep going back.

In terms of eye test and looking at the stats, it's really one of the best offensive runs I ever seen from a player. It seems like his jumper was on throughout the playoffs. And when LeBron jumper is on, I sometimes think he is really either the best ever or just the best offensive player the league has ever seen due to his crazy athletic ability to finish inside the paint so well. And the style of 3 and D guys and the analytical era really suits his play style the best. But then I come back to earth,

Stopped reading there.

[jalbert009]

Without looking up stats and from the top of my head, Dirk's 2011 Ring is more dominant than any ring Lebron has ever won.

[Spurs m8]

So impressive he got swept when it mattered

Dat king

[Micku]

Without looking up stats and from the top of my head, Dirk's 2011 Ring is more dominant than any ring Lebron has ever won.

It's not about rings. I'm not talking about that at least. I'm talking about offense. I think LeBron James 2017 and 18 was among the best offense I ever seen from a player in the playoffs.

[TheCorporation]

So impressive he got swept when it mattered

Dat king

Real winners lose early :lol (1-9)

As for OP, yes 2017 and 2018 were better than what 99.9% of the NBA world has done which is why rings is only one component of greatness.

Some would have you believe LeBron's 2013 run was "better" than 2017 or 2018 because of the rangz culture but high IQs know better.

[dankok8]

Good post Micku!

The reason I have reservations about 2017 and 2018 Lebron is that many of those series were played at very high pace and the Cavs emphasized offense at the expense of defense. Those teams weren't balanced.

[3ba11]

Stats achieved through a westbrooking style that barely beats a bunch of really weak teams can't be praised - the 86' Bulls would've beaten the 18' Celtics - the 88' and 89' Bulls beat much better teams (including the #1 SRS team in the league)

35/6/6 for Jordan's 92' and 93' runs are the goat runs because they WON with ridiculous margins above all teammates (defeated maximum defensive attention, aka carry-job)... Jordan's 97' and 98' runs were similar in their goat carry-job nature.

[Indian guy]

Good post Micku!

The reason I have reservations about 2017 and 2018 Lebron is that many of those series were played at very high pace

What are you talking about? Cleveland had an anemic pace of 91.6 in the 2018 playoffs. Second lowest in the the league.

[3ba11]

What are you talking about? Cleveland had an anemic pace of 91.6 in the 2018 playoffs. Second lowest in the the league.


For Lebron to achieve great stats, the entire game must slow to a crawl to support his simple skillset (a form of westbrooking), which usually can't beat the best teams regardless of cast (4/10 including 2 teammate bailouts)..

Ultimately, ball-dominance lets the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively, like the 14' Spurs, 11' Mavs, 09' Magic, or 17' Warriors... That's why ball-dominance is inferior strategy to ball movement, which wears down defenses more and wins the battle of attrition. The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

[dankok8]

What are you talking about? Cleveland had an anemic pace of 91.6 in the 2018 playoffs. Second lowest in the the league.

I was going off of memory but I wasn't talking about Cleveland's pace relative to the league but in general. A pace of 91.6 is actually a bit high before the league exploded offensively in recent years. For instance Lebron's Heat teams from 2011-2014 were around 87.0 pace in the playoffs. Compared to say 2012 Lebron, 2018 Lebron played at a noticeably higher pace which for a player as dominant as Lebron is in the open court probably boosted his scoring efficiency as well beyond just extra total possessions.

[Baller789]

Real winners lose early :lol (1-9)

As for OP, yes 2017 and 2018 were better than what 99.9% of the NBA world has done which is why rings is only one component of greatness.

Some would have you believe LeBron's 2013 run was "better" than 2017 or 2018 because of the rangz culture but high IQs know better.

No response to being swept?
Twice?
:roll:

[TheCorporation]

No response to being swept?
Twice?
:roll:

Oh.
You didn't see?
Here ya go then:

Real winners lose early (1-9) :lol

As for OP, yes 2017 and 2018 were better than what 99.9% of the NBA world has done which is why rings is only one component of greatness.

Some would have you believe LeBron's 2013 run was "better" than 2017 or 2018 because of the rangz culture but high IQs know better.

[Pip' N Rodman]

Jordan during his 15th season playoff run.. oh wait

[TheCorporation]

Jordan during his 15th season playoff run.. oh wait


:lebronamazed:

[FKAri]

Good post Micku!

The reason I have reservations about 2017 and 2018 Lebron is that many of those series were played at very high pace and the Cavs emphasized offense at the expense of defense. Those teams weren't balanced.

I don't know if the Cavs did but Lebron certainly emphasized offense at the expense of defense. And it was a worthy tradeoff based on his fit in the team. They had no one else to really run plays and Lebron's jumper was falling.

[dankok8]

I don't know if the Cavs did but Lebron certainly emphasized offense at the expense of defense. And it was a worthy tradeoff based on his fit in the team. They had no one else to really run plays and Lebron's jumper was falling.

I'm not sure it was a worthy tradeoff especially in the finals. You don't wanna play an up-and-down game against the Warriors. I think the way they played the Dubs in 2015 was a much better strategy. I would have honestly played a big defensive lineup for long stretches in 2017 and even more so in 2018 with no Kyrie. Maybe Shumpert/Lebron/Hollins/Love/Tristan. Crash the offensive boards, attack the rim, try to get them in foul trouble. Just generally make them uncomfortable with the physicality and slloooowww the pace down to a crawl. Shumpert on Curry and really harass him including fullcourt press, Lebron on Klay, Tristan on KD... Don't run up and down the court and play with three or four shooters around Lebron. Sure Lebron will put up nice stats but you'll get annihilated on the other end of the floor. And Lebron will fatigue like he did in 2018. After Game 1 the man hit the wall and you can't really blame him much.

Just because a certain strategy worked against the 8th best and 10th best teams in the league doesn't mean you can beat elite teams with it. That's at least how I see it.

[1987_Lakers]

His 2018 playoff run was greatest performance I have ever seen from a player. Just flat out dominated every team he went up against, and not only did he dominate, he consistently hit big shots or had a historic game when the Cavs looked like they were finished.

[ELITEpower23]

His 2018 playoff run was greatest performance I have ever seen from a player. Just flat out dominated every team he went up against, and not only did he dominate, he consistently hit big shots or had a historic game when the Cavs looked like they were finished.

2018 LeBron Playoff Records
Highest PER thru the Finals in NBA history = 32.2
Only player in NBA history to average 30 ppg on 50% FG for all four playoff series
Most game winners for a playoff run in NBA history
More 40.0 pt games (GmSc) in 1 playoff run than Kobe had for his ENTIRE playoff career

LeBron James’s games with a 40+ game-score in the 2018 playoffs:
-2nd Round Game 2 @ Toronto: 43 points, 14 rebounds, 8 assists, 68.2 TS% (41.6 game-score)
-NBA Finals Game 1 @ Golden State: 51 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists, 69.2 TS% (41.3 game-score)
-1st Round Game 2 vs. Indiana: 46 points, 12 rebounds, 5 assists, 77.4 TS% (40.9 game-score)

Kobe Bryant’s games with a 40+ game-score in the playoffs:
-2008 1st Round Game 2 vs. Denver: 49 points, 4 rebounds, 10 assists, 79.1 TS% (43.6 game-score)
-2001 2nd Round Game 4 @ Sacramento: 48 points, 16 rebounds, 3 assists, 64.2 TS% (43.3 game-score)


Highest Percentage of a Team's Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals, and Blocks in a Finals Run:
1. LeBron James (2018) - 32%
T2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1974) - 30%
T2. LeBron James (2015) - 30%
T4. Shaquille O’Neal (2000) - 29%
T4. LeBron James (2012) - 29%

Most 40 Point Games in a Single Postseason in
NBA Playoff History
T1. LeBron James (2018) - 8
T1. Jerry West (1965) - 8
3. Michael Jordan (1989) - 7

LeBron with highest Single Postseason Two Point FG% in NBA History:
-62.5% in 2017 before he later broke that record himself in 2020 with 64.6%

He doesn't make sense how good he is sometimes.

[Stephonit]

Curry 2015
Curry 2016
Curry 2017
Curry 2019

[jalbert009]

It's not about rings. I'm not talking about that at least. I'm talking about offense. I think LeBron James 2017 and 18 was among the best offense I ever seen from a player in the playoffs.

Well without bringing stats into the argument, Dirk willed his team on the offensive end to win it all.

In round 1 he matched up against Aldridge the Blazers Franchise player at the time.

2nd round he matched up against Pau Gasol and prevented the Lakers from 3peating in a dominant fashion with a full sweep.

WCF he was defended by Ibaka the defensive anchor of OKC who featured KD, WB and Harden as well.

In the Finals the Miami Big 3 including Lebron James himself.

Now Dirk did not have any Legitimate All star Second scorer on this squad so he was the Primary Scorer. The entire offense ran through him.

Now my issue with stats is context. For example, Averaging 25ppg/9rpg against the 2x Champion Lakers in the second round is much more impressive than averaging 34ppg/8rpg/11apg against the Raptors in the second round of the 2018 playoffs.

But a stat nerd is going to tell me 34ppg/8rpg/11apg > 25ppg/9rpg

[TheGoatest]

He was just insane those playoffs.
Won a series where he didn't have a single teammate score 20 points in a span of 7 games.
Had two buzzer beater game winners in two series.
32.2 PER - the highest ever for a playoffs run that included the finals.

What. A. Goat.

:applause: :rockon: :djparty :dancin :pimp:

[Baller789]

Oh.
You didn't see?
Here ya go then:

Real winners lose early (1-9) :lol

As for OP, yes 2017 and 2018 were better than what 99.9% of the NBA world has done which is why rings is only one component of greatness.

Some would have you believe LeBron's 2013 run was "better" than 2017 or 2018 because of the rangz culture but high IQs know better.

I asked a response for Lebron being swept, and you answered with a retired player's playoff record.

That's not a response, it's a deflection. :oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

I asked a response for Lebron being swept, and you answered with a retired player's playoff record.

That's not a response, it's a deflection. :oldlol:

Jordan eats that losers soul every.single.day

[Micku]

I'm not sure it was a worthy tradeoff especially in the finals. You don't wanna play an up-and-down game against the Warriors. I think the way they played the Dubs in 2015 was a much better strategy. I would have honestly played a big defensive lineup for long stretches in 2017 and even more so in 2018 with no Kyrie. Maybe Shumpert/Lebron/Hollins/Love/Tristan. Crash the offensive boards, attack the rim, try to get them in foul trouble. Just generally make them uncomfortable with the physicality and slloooowww the pace down to a crawl. Shumpert on Curry and really harass him including fullcourt press, Lebron on Klay, Tristan on KD... Don't run up and down the court and play with three or four shooters around Lebron. Sure Lebron will put up nice stats but you'll get annihilated on the other end of the floor. And Lebron will fatigue like he did in 2018. After Game 1 the man hit the wall and you can't really blame him much.

Just because a certain strategy worked against the 8th best and 10th best teams in the league doesn't mean you can beat elite teams with it. That's at least how I see it.

I agree.

At least in 2017. They couldn't out gun the GSW in terms of offense, and it obviously showed. The Cavs in 15-18 weren't great defensively anyway. They were the best in 16. But they always had problems in the RS defending and just winning games. LeBron was coasting more, and just turned it up in the POs. Kyrie also turned it up. The defense was still a problem in 17, but their offense was so good it didn't matter in the East till the finals when they faced the Warriors. If they were better at defense, they could've potentially gave them a run for their money like the Rockets in 18 did. But they just didn't play defense like that. Their offense was there tho.

But in 2018, they shouldn't even been in the finals. I would say it was worth it for LeBron to turn it on offensively at the expense of defense like that. I think it was historically great and you could argue it was the best ever even relative to its era. I would say it's among the best ever and one of the most impressive displays. Both in 17 and 18 tho. They weren't going to win the series anyway in the finals. However, if we were to include defense into the performance, then Kawhi in 17 was really impressive in the playoffs. Perhaps it doesn't really get talked about as much as it should due to his injury. He was one of the best two players in NBA history that year, and it doesn't get appreciated as much and how much he contributed to the Spurs success in the POs. It was a step back from the prior year defensively and he took breaks to conserve energy on the offensive end, but you definitely see his impact. And of course you have MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Tim Duncan, and Giannis. You could argue Shaq in 2000 too. Lebron in 12 and 13.

But this thread isn't about that. It's about offense.

And I'm shocked Magic doesn't really get enough mention here even after I mentioned him. The advance stats, don't really jump at you except for TS% and Ortg. I suppose you would have to see it to believe it. I think he is definitely among the best offensive players of all time and have some of he best performances. But his impact wasn't on scoring, but it was his play making and pace control. While a person may say that LeBron play making is nearly just as good, I would argue it's like the difference between Curry and Ray Allen's shooting. While both are elite and among the best shooters the league has ever seen, Curry is clearly better. Same way with Magic. Although another counter argument is that it's easier to make Kareem and Worthy good than it is with K.Love (Cavs version) and George Hill. But the way he controlled offense and the pace is still unmatch in my opinion.

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem's 1995 run was one of the most remarkable offensive performances for a playoff run in league history, especially when you consider that the Rockets didn't have HCA in any series. Hakeem put up 33 PPG on 53% in a tough defensive era against guys like Shaq and Robinson.

[dankok8]

I agree.

At least in 2017. They couldn't out gun the GSW in terms of offense, and it obviously showed. The Cavs in 15-18 weren't great defensively anyway. They were the best in 16. But they always had problems in the RS defending and just winning games. LeBron was coasting more, and just turned it up in the POs. Kyrie also turned it up. The defense was still a problem in 17, but their offense was so good it didn't matter in the East till the finals when they faced the Warriors. If they were better at defense, they could've potentially gave them a run for their money like the Rockets in 18 did. But they just didn't play defense like that. Their offense was there tho.

But in 2018, they shouldn't even been in the finals. I would say it was worth it for LeBron to turn it on offensively at the expense of defense like that. I think it was historically great and you could argue it was the best ever even relative to its era. I would say it's among the best ever and one of the most impressive displays. Both in 17 and 18 tho. They weren't going to win the series anyway in the finals. However, if we were to include defense into the performance, then Kawhi in 17 was really impressive in the playoffs. Perhaps it doesn't really get talked about as much as it should due to his injury. He was one of the best two players in NBA history that year, and it doesn't get appreciated as much and how much he contributed to the Spurs success in the POs. It was a step back from the prior year defensively and he took breaks to conserve energy on the offensive end, but you definitely see his impact. And of course you have MJ, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Tim Duncan, and Giannis. You could argue Shaq in 2000 too. Lebron in 12 and 13.

But this thread isn't about that. It's about offense.

And I'm shocked Magic doesn't really get enough mention here even after I mentioned him. The advance stats, don't really jump at you except for TS% and Ortg. I suppose you would have to see it to believe it. I think he is definitely among the best offensive players of all time and have some of he best performances. But his impact wasn't on scoring, but it was his play making and pace control. While a person may say that LeBron play making is nearly just as good, I would argue it's like the difference between Curry and Ray Allen's shooting. While both are elite and among the best shooters the league has ever seen, Curry is clearly better. Same way with Magic. Although another counter argument is that it's easier to make Kareem and Worthy good than it is with K.Love (Cavs version) and George Hill. But the way he controlled offense and the pace is still unmatch in my opinion.

Magic suffers on my list because Kareem is the 2nd best offensive player ever after MJ. Singular years of excellence like 2018 Lebron are awesome but the best guys are the most consistent ones. Like who is the best over 8-10 postseasons? And like I said I'm not convinced that 2018 Lebron is better than 2012 Lebron, even just offensively. In 2012 pace was slower, defenses were better and Lebron shared the ball with Wade.

Kareem in 1977 put up 34.6/17.7/4.1 on +13.5 rTS on two elite teams, the Rick Barry Warriors and Bill Walton Blazers. That efficiency makes no sense. Kareem was a freaking cheat code. I mean heck you need a basket against a set defense and he's the first guy in NBA history you go to. 1974 Kareem put up 32.2/15.8/4.9 on +8.0 rTS. In 1980 he put up 31.9/12.1/3.1 on +8.0 rTS. Ridiculous... From 1970-1981 which was 10 straight postseasons (97 games), Kareem averaged 30.3/15.7/3.9 on +5.4 rTS.

Jordan put up 34.9/6.7/6.6 on +4.5 rTS with 3.3 topg for 8 straight postseasons (101 games) from 1986-1993. I think he's in a class of his own because of consistency. In terms of similar sample sizes (8+ playoffs) only Kareem is a bit above 30 ppg. Jordan is at 35 ppg! And sometimes people confuse passing ability with playmaking. MJ wasn't a savant in terms of court vision but still a good passer and then his scoring attracted so much attention that guys were wide open and MJ didn't need to make anything more than a simple pass most of the time. Ben Taylor's playmaking estimates put Jordan at or near the top as the biggest playmaking machine in history because of these open looks. And I mean that would explain how he dragged those Bulls teams that weren't that talented offensively to GOAT-level offenses.

Lebron put up 29.2/9.4/7.3 on +5.2 rTS with 3.7 topg for 8 straight postseasons (168 games) from 2012-2020. Like I said in the MJ paragraph their playmaking is neck and neck and Jordan gave 5-6 more PPG which is too hard to overlook. Vs. Kareem Lebron's playmaking means he has a case but I just think Kareem's insane scoring in the halfcourt (doesn't even show up on the stat sheet) gives him the edge.

My Best Offensive Peaks

#1 MJ
#2 Kareem
#3 Lebron
#4 Wilt
#5 Shaq
#6 Magic
#7 Curry

Shaq made barbeque chicken when teams refused to double or when he played undersized guys (hello Dale Davis!) but he couldn't get baskets on demand the way Kareem could. Teams like the Spurs always kept Shaq down by a decent amount. Magic elevated some teams to amazing heights offensively but those were stacked teams that you'd expect to be really good even without him. Curry's numbers drop too much in the postseason for my liking. Wilt never really combined elite scoring with elite passing. It might not even be his fault and he's the toughest to rank.

Hakeem was a level or two below Shaq offensively. Giannis needs to prove more. Duncan isn't that great on offense. I'm not considering them that strongly. Kobe might be #8 if I had to go that far and KD probably makes it before those guys.

[Micku]

Jordan put up 34.9/6.7/6.6 on +4.5 rTS with 3.3 topg for 8 straight postseasons (101 games) from 1986-1993. I think he's in a class of his own because of consistency. In terms of similar sample sizes (8+ playoffs) only Kareem is a bit above 30 ppg. Jordan is at 35 ppg! And sometimes people confuse passing ability with playmaking. MJ wasn't a savant in terms of court vision but still a good passer and then his scoring attracted so much attention that guys were wide open and MJ didn't need to make anything more than a simple pass most of the time. Ben Taylor's playmaking estimates put Jordan at or near the top as the biggest playmaking machine in history because of these open looks. And I mean that would explain how he dragged those Bulls teams that weren't that talented offensively to GOAT-level offenses.



I remember him talking about how his estimates put MJ near the top of playmaking! I would like to add that one of MJ undermention stats is his low turnover rate. I don't think Ben Taylor mentioned it in his videos? But I probably don't remember. I think someone else on this forum or another mentioned MJ turnovers, but we don't really mention enough. Usage rate isn't a indication of time of possession, it is a indication of which player the offense run through. Usually, but of course it has its flaws. With that said, MJ must have the low TOV% in relation of his high Usage %. It's really bonkers. He has a TOs ratio in comparison to Bird, Magic, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, Kareem, Shaq. And that's the thing that amazes me. That he even has a low TOV% compared to players who play off the ball. Granted he played off the ball too, but he even beats them when he plays on the ball. I don't know his pass to assist to turnover ratio tho.

Given the context of the amount of defensive attention that he gets, and how efficient he was with his shot making and him being a good passer, it is amazing that he kept that turnovers rate so low. Which I think further increase his efficiency on offense. But you could argue, and you would right, that comparing across eras is unfair due to the rule changing and the nature of the game. But even compared to his peers, it's really amazing. And he kept that low TOV% even when he came back with the Wizards.

In argument for Magic Johnson, it depends on what stats you wann'a use. Magic best numbers came when Kareem was getting a bit older, and they relied more on Magic. Although Kareem was still effective. So, around the mid 80s. I would say from the 85-86 through 91.We probably could stretch it back to 84-85 tho. From 85-91, Magic averaged 21.1/6.8/12.8 on 50.2% and rTS 5.9. He was always the leader of the Lakers in OBPM in according to basketball-reference, but we don't have the real BPM stat with espn. That only goes back to 97. Regardless, it's definitely an indication that he might've been their best contributor on the offensive end in those years. He wasn't the scorer that Kareem was, so they gave it to Kareem down the stretch, but he could score. But as you said, he benefited for playing with stack team and vice versa. But he stayed consistent even when the style of play started to change in the late 80s and early 90s and when Kareem retired. And he was leader of making the Lakers number 1 in offense in 1990 and 91. While he did offensive talent surrounding him, that type of offensive efficiency wasn't reached till the 3-ball era if I can recall.

As for Kareem, you're right. Dude was a cheat code. I never watched him 77, at least not a full game, but I watched him in 71 and 72 for a few games and way more in the 80s. I'll take the time to watch his games in 77, but he had moves than just the sky hook. He could take you inside and out. He was quicker in the 70s from the games that I watched, but his game seemed more polish in the 80s, although it could be because of the rules as well. Very solid passer as well for a center. He was so tall and long, that you can't really contest him.

I'm not too sure about a list of all time performances, but it's a shame that Curry couldn't produce in the POs as well as he could in the RS. His effectiveness always drops off. Not as much as James Harden tho. KD deserves a mention. Bird in 84 and 86, but I think MJ and LeBron clearly exceeded that offensively.

I know you don't like it, but a single year of a great performances, is something I'm thinking about for this thread. Kareem 77 is a great choice tho. Shaq 2000 and 01. MJ in 88-93. Magic in 90 was impressive, while his playmaking and control of the game was imo second to none, it was the only year he averaged like 30 ppg in a playoff series while averaging like 12 apg. I'm pretty sure I might be forgetting a couple, but there is only a select few even on that lvl of could produce at a similar lvl. But multiple year of consistency is a more of a indication of how great the player is tho. But not to say a single year ain't. If you good, you good.

[dankok8]

I remember him talking about how his estimates put MJ near the top of playmaking! I would like to add that one of MJ undermention stats is his low turnover rate. I don't think Ben Taylor mentioned it in his videos? But I probably don't remember. I think someone else on this forum or another mentioned MJ turnovers, but we don't really mention enough. Usage rate isn't a indication of time of possession, it is a indication of which player the offense run through. Usually, but of course it has its flaws. With that said, MJ must have the low TOV% in relation of his high Usage %. It's really bonkers. He has a TOs ratio in comparison to Bird, Magic, Kobe, LeBron, Curry, Kareem, Shaq. And that's the thing that amazes me. That he even has a low TOV% compared to players who play off the ball. Granted he played off the ball too, but he even beats them when he plays on the ball. I don't know his pass to assist to turnover ratio tho.

Given the context of the amount of defensive attention that he gets, and how efficient he was with his shot making and him being a good passer, it is amazing that he kept that turnovers rate so low. Which I think further increase his efficiency on offense. But you could argue, and you would right, that comparing across eras is unfair due to the rule changing and the nature of the game. But even compared to his peers, it's really amazing. And he kept that low TOV% even when he came back with the Wizards.

In argument for Magic Johnson, it depends on what stats you wann'a use. Magic best numbers came when Kareem was getting a bit older, and they relied more on Magic. Although Kareem was still effective. So, around the mid 80s. I would say from the 85-86 through 91.We probably could stretch it back to 84-85 tho. From 85-91, Magic averaged 21.1/6.8/12.8 on 50.2% and rTS 5.9. He was always the leader of the Lakers in OBPM in according to basketball-reference, but we don't have the real BPM stat with espn. That only goes back to 97. Regardless, it's definitely an indication that he might've been their best contributor on the offensive end in those years. He wasn't the scorer that Kareem was, so they gave it to Kareem down the stretch, but he could score. But as you said, he benefited for playing with stack team and vice versa. But he stayed consistent even when the style of play started to change in the late 80s and early 90s and when Kareem retired. And he was leader of making the Lakers number 1 in offense in 1990 and 91. While he did offensive talent surrounding him, that type of offensive efficiency wasn't reached till the 3-ball era if I can recall.

As for Kareem, you're right. Dude was a cheat code. I never watched him 77, at least not a full game, but I watched him in 71 and 72 for a few games and way more in the 80s. I'll take the time to watch his games in 77, but he had moves than just the sky hook. He could take you inside and out. He was quicker in the 70s from the games that I watched, but his game seemed more polish in the 80s, although it could be because of the rules as well. Very solid passer as well for a center. He was so tall and long, that you can't really contest him.

I'm not too sure about a list of all time performances, but it's a shame that Curry couldn't produce in the POs as well as he could in the RS. His effectiveness always drops off. Not as much as James Harden tho. KD deserves a mention. Bird in 84 and 86, but I think MJ and LeBron clearly exceeded that offensively.

I know you don't like it, but a single year of a great performances, is something I'm thinking about for this thread. Kareem 77 is a great choice tho. Shaq 2000 and 01. MJ in 88-93. Magic in 90 was impressive, while his playmaking and control of the game was imo second to none, it was the only year he averaged like 30 ppg in a playoff series while averaging like 12 apg. I'm pretty sure I might be forgetting a couple, but there is only a select few even on that lvl of could produce at a similar lvl. But multiple year of consistency is a more of a indication of how great the player is tho. But not to say a single year ain't. If you good, you good.

I mentioned Jordan's super low turnovers before and it's often overlooked. Ben Taylor did talk about them. Jordan's playoff turnover rates in five of his six title years are <10% and comparable to off-ball guys like Klay Thompson and Dirk Nowitzki. As you said, that is absolute bonkers because Jordan handled the ball a lot.

It's not that I don't like single year runs but sample sizes are small. A single playoff run is only up to ~20 games. Thus you can get fluky outcomes. The guy in question might have just gotten on a hot streak shooting the ball or played favorable match-ups or anything really. Over 100 games spread across 8+ years against a variety of opponents, average performances are likely a much better indicator of ability. For instance Donovan Mitchell in his last two postseasons (17 games) has averaged 33.9/4.5/5.2 on +5.5 rTS with 3.4 topg. Luka Doncic in his last two postseasons (13 games) has averaged 33.5/8.8/9.5 on +1.4 rTS with 4.8 topg. Yet most wouldn't include Mitchell or Luka in the conversation of greatest offensive peaks.

Another factor to consider is the quality of teams. Most players generally put up crazier scoring numbers on bad teams than they do on championship teams because championship teams tend to be more talented and the ball is shared more. I doubt Mitchell and Luka even if they could consistently put up the crazy numbers above would do so on a championship team. Even MJ who wasn't exactly shy to shoot the ball cut down his scoring volume as the Bulls improved.