It's statistifcal fact that everyone's stats are INFLATED compared to MJ

[3ba11]

because MJ is the only player that faced maximum defensive attention his whole career by never having an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention.

Everyone else in history had teammates match or lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan averaged 10-30 more than his sidekick in every SERIES and therefore faced the hardest path to statistical greatness (maximum defensive attention)

[hateraid]

This argument is as stupid as saying Iverson was the smallest player to average 30 PPG therefore anyone else taller that did it is inflated. Good grief OP

BTW posters. Don't know if the last thread I had it in was deleted but I'm introducing a new flavor for preworkout. I have it down to Rozay or Lychee. Which would you drink?

[3ba11]

This argument is as stupid as saying Iverson was the smallest player to average 30 PPG therefore anyone else taller that did it is inflated. Good grief OP

BTW posters. Don't know if the last thread I had it in was deleted but I'm introducing a new flavor for preworkout. I have it down to Rozay or Lychee. Which would you drink?


Equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention - everyone else had them to make their stats easier, while Jordan had to double his teammates' averages and therefore was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention..

This is unique to the goat.

[hateraid]

Rozay or Lychee?

[AirBonner]

Even Kobe? :)

[3ba11]

Even Kobe? :)


Everyone had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, even Kobe...

Only MJ was forced to overcome maximum defensive attention for his entire career, so his road to elite stats and efficiency was the toughest..

By virtue of having equal-scoring partners to make stats easier, everyone's stats and efficiency is inflated compared to MJ, who carried the load for his entire career.

[Sulico]

What a load of BS.

Steph Curry faced box and one defense in the plaoffs!

Every time Steph uses screen he gets double-teamed.

Michael Jordan didn't recieve half of the defensive attention Steph recieved for the last 6 years.

[3ba11]

What a load of BS.

Steph Curry faced box and one defense in the plaoffs!

Every time Steph uses screen he gets double-teamed.

Michael Jordan didn't recieve half of the defensive attention Steph recieved for the last 6 years.


Yes, sometimes Curry faces maximum defensive attention, but not for 2 of his titles in 17' or 18' when he had an equal-scoring teammate to attract equal defensive attention.. :confusedshrug:

So Curry didn't face maximum defensive attention for his whole career like MJ did.. Infact, everyone needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for most their rings except MJ, Hakeem and Dirk.

[AirBonner]

Steph curry had to face LeBron. MJ faced Stockton

[Sulico]

Yes, sometimes Curry faces maximum defensive attention, but not for 2 of his titles in 17' or 18' when he had an equal-scoring teammate to attract equal defensive attention.. :confusedshrug:

So Curry didn't face maximum defensive attention for his whole career like MJ did.. Infact, everyone needed an equal-scoring partner in the playoffs for most their rings except MJ, Hakeem and Dirk.

Do I have to post the video of defenders running away from KD to double-team Steph resulting in KD dunk?

Do I have to post videos of MJ defended one on one by a shorter white dude for the whole series?

[3ba11]

Steph curry had to face LeBron. MJ faced Stockton


Stockton scored like Jordan in the clutch:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-29-2021/fJDd0t.gif



While Lebron was often Karl Malone-caliber or worse in the Finals:



13' Lebron Finals.... 25/11/7 on 45%
11' Lebron Finals.... 18/7/6 on 48%
07' Lebron Finals.... 22/7/6 on 36%

98' Malone Finals.... 25/11/4 on 50%
97' Malone Finals.... 24/11/4 on 44%

[SouBeachTalents]

Stockton scored like Jordan in the clutch:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-29-2021/fJDd0t.gif



While Lebron was often Karl Malone-caliber or worse in the Finals:



13' Lebron Finals.... 25/11/7 on 45%
11' Lebron Finals.... 18/7/6 on 48%
07' Lebron Finals.... 22/7/6 on 36%

98' Malone Finals.... 25/11/4 on 50%
97' Malone Finals.... 24/11/4 on 44%
Claiming LeBron was “often” worse than Malone in the Finals would require someone to ignore 7, 7 Finals series where LeBron was better, often by a significant margin.

It’s amazing how dishonest 3ball can be, dude has no shame :lol

[3ba11]

Do I have to post the video of defenders running away from KD to double-team Steph resulting in KD dunk?





durant actually scored MORE than curry, so curry was wide open a lot, while mj faced max defensive attention his entire career because he never had an elite-producing sidekick that was a comparable threat.






Do I have to post videos of MJ defended one on one by a shorter white dude for the whole series?





MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif


During the Bulls-Pistons series, the Pistons' 4th quarter policy was to double-team MJ every single time he touched the ball.. Here's an examle from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuG19_1yrrQ&t=01h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:



"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).



SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg

[hateraid]

Yeah Jordan had the ultimate space provider (Kerr) and the ultimate go get it (Rodman)
He didn't have a team designed for him to succeed. Lol. Meanwhile Iverson had Eric Snow to help him with the scoring load. Lolol.
Nice try OP.

[tpols]

What a load of BS.

Steph Curry faced box and one defense in the plaoffs!

Every time Steph uses screen he gets double-teamed.

Michael Jordan didn't recieve half of the defensive attention Steph recieved for the last 6 years.

This.

Curry in the playoffs has faced what's essentially what it would be like if two CBs were jamming a WR at the line. I don't think anybody has ever gotten that kind of coverage in the NFL. MJ got the typical CB jam with safety over the top bracket coverage. The defensive kitchen sink that has has been thrown at Chef is a paradigm shift.

[tpols]

Yeah Jordan had the ultimate space provider (Kerr) and the ultimate go get it (Rodman)
He didn't have a team designed for him to succeed. Lol. Meanwhile Iverson had Eric Snow to help him with the scoring load. Lolol.
Nice try OP.

The Sixers only made the Finals because of their defense, which was elite ranked anchored by mutumbo, great defensive role players and GOAT defensive coach Larry Brown. Their offensive rank wasn't even top 10, and Iverson was shooting in the 40s TS to make the Finals. Its not a good look to compare Iverson to Jordan lol.

[hateraid]

The Sixers only made the Finals because of their defense, which was elite ranked anchored by mutumbo, great defensive role players and GOAT defensive coach Larry Brown. Their offensive rank wasn't even top 10, and Iverson was shooting in the 40s TS to make the Finals. Its not a good look to compare Iverson to Jordan lol.

According to OP everyone's stats are inflated due to Jordan having no equal on his team and being doubled. So Iverson is definitely relevant

But for arguments sake might as well use Wilt

[ShawkFactory]

This.

Curry in the playoffs has faced what's essentially what it would be like if two CBs were jamming a WR at the line. I don't think anybody has ever gotten that kind of coverage in the NFL. MJ got the typical CB jam with safety over the top bracket coverage. The defensive kitchen sink that has has been thrown at Chef is a paradigm shift.

I remember Calvin Johnson used to get those kind of looks in goaline situations.

But yea, saying that MJ is the most double teamed player of all time is beyond retarded. Guys like Hakeem and Shaq were double teamed pretty much every time they touched the ball for their entire careers.

Even Duncan got those kind of looks.

[hateraid]

I remember Calvin Johnson used to get those kind of looks in goaline situations.

But yea, saying that MJ is the most double teamed player of all time is beyond retarded. Guys like Hakeem and Shaq were double teamed pretty much every time they touched the ball for their entire careers.

Even Duncan got those kind of looks.

Well according to OP it's because he has nobody to help him offensively.

[3ba11]

This.

Curry in the playoffs has faced what's essentially what it would be like if two CBs were jamming a WR at the line. I don't think anybody has ever gotten that kind of coverage in the NFL. MJ got the typical CB jam with safety over the top bracket coverage. The defensive kitchen sink that has has been thrown at Chef is a paradigm shift.


"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s


So Jordan faced every kind of defense in the NBA including box and one - that isn't unprecedented and everything was possible with defenders all bunched together with little spacing - heck, Jordan faced a dynasty that geared their entire team to stop him (Jordan Rules), which included overt double-teams on 10 of 13 possessions to finish games - Curry never faced that, partly because he usually had an equal-scoring teammate to attract equal defensive attention like the 17-19' Finals..

Btw, I don't remember Curry being POY in the full zone college scene, while Jordan was POY over Hakeem in college.

Furthermore, Curry can elude defenders on the perimeter, whereas paint defenders can't be moved or eluded - they just stand there and you're forced to take contested shots - so Jordan faced more defenders when it was time to shoot

Heck, defenses give Curry the lane and his decision-making in the clutch could be better on when to take advantage of this

[3ba11]

Due to today's spaced-out era and 3-point format (in addition to equal-scoring teammates), I think that Curry is a bad example to show someone whose stats aren't inflated.

I have him top 5 all-time however because everyone's stats are inflated just like his.... Ultimately, he knows how to win (organic) and he can carry teams (win titles while carrying scoring load in playoffs and Finals).. And his impact - he changed the game from two-pointers to three-pointes, just like MJ changed the game from big men to perimeter players..

[hateraid]

Due to today's spaced-out era and 3-point format (in addition to equal-scoring teammates), I think that Curry is a bad example to show someone whose stats aren't inflated.

I have him top 5 all-time however because everyone's stats are inflated just like his.... Ultimately, he knows how to win (organic) and he can carry teams (win titles while carrying scoring load in playoffs and Finals).. And his impact - he changed the game from two-pointers to three-pointes, just like MJ changed the game from big men to perimeter players..

Jordan had Kerr. The ultimate space provider. Lol. Next

[3ba11]

Jordan had Kerr. The ultimate space provider. Lol. Next


JR Smith shot better than Curry could ever dream - see the 15' ECF when he carried the Cavs' to the Finals (i'm using "pippen" logic where the "pippen" is infact the leader)

[AirBonner]

Still trying to figure out the fact part

[Kawhi's_Kliq_2]

He scored 732 points on 62% TS, which is the highest total scoring\TS combination for any player during a championship run. He guarded Giannis, shut him down and backdoor swept him, he made the only game 7 buzzer beater in history in the 2nd round and averaged 34PPG on 63% TS that series and locked up Butler in game 7, he eliminated Curry\Draymond the duo of a 73 win dynasty.

When the goat comes back and he will, i will strike terror upon this forum's eternity.

[000]

He scored 732 points on 62% TS, which is the highest total scoring\TS combination for any player during a championship run. He guarded Giannis, shut him down and backdoor swept him, he made the only game 7 buzzer beater in history in the 2nd round and averaged 34PPG on 63% TS that series and locked up Butler in game 7, he eliminated Curry\Draymond the duo of a 73 win dynasty.

When the goat comes back and he will, i will strike terror upon this forum's eternity.
Hey there new poster

[3ba11]

Still trying to figure out the fact part


The statistical fact is that everyone in history had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention at some point in their career, so at least PART of their career was inflated statistically by not facing maximum defensive attention.

Only Jordan lacked an equal-scoring partner for a playoff run and infact led every SERIES by at least 10 ppg.. So only Jordan faced max defensive attention for his entire career (toughest statistical road), while everyone else enjoyed periods of inflation due to equal-scoring teammates (to attract equal defensive attention).

[hateraid]

Still trying to figure out the fact part

There is none that supports what he's saying.

[ShawkFactory]

Still trying to figure out the fact part

Not sure he understands that using a fact to support an argument doesn’t make the argument a fact.

[3ba11]

Not sure he understands that using a fact to support an argument doesn’t make the argument a fact.



PLAYOFF PPG

87' Worthy..... 23.6
87' Magic....... 18.6

86' McHale'.... 24.9
86' Bird......... 25.1

16' Kyrie........ 25.2
16' Lebron'..... 26.2

11' Wade........ 24.5
11' Lebron...... 23.7


^^^ At some point in everyone's playoff career, they had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal-defensive attention, and therefore weren't facing maximum defensive coverage - any period without max defensive coverage are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who faced max defensive coverage for his entire career by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[hateraid]

PLAYOFF PPG

87' Worthy..... 23.6
87' Magic....... 18.6

86' McHale'.... 24.9
86' Bird......... 25.1

16' Kyrie........ 25.2
16' Lebron'..... 26.2

11' Wade........ 24.5
11' Lebron...... 23.7


^^^ At some point in everyone's playoff career, they had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal-defensive attention, and therefore weren't facing maximum defensive coverage - any period without max defensive coverage are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who faced max defensive coverage for his entire career by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

And Wilt?

Next

[Kawhi's_Kliq_2]

Hey there new poster

Thank you. I'm a nice guy until you get in a debate with me. Then you end up like embiid.

10 seconds "AHHHHHH"


https://youtu.be/VbyN9umU7K4

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ using LA's 1987 playoff run.... the teams they faced to get to the Finals were a combined 118-128.

[3ba11]

LOL @ using LA's 1987 playoff run.... the teams they faced to get to the Finals were a combined 118-128.


Worthy led the Lakers in scoring every year for the 87-91' Playoffs

[SouBeachTalents]

LOL @ using LA's 1987 playoff run.... the teams they faced to get to the Finals were a combined 118-128.
Sounds like Jordan’s career without Pippen

[hateraid]

Sounds like Jordan’s career without Pippen

Checkmate

[3ba11]

Sounds like Jordan’s career without Pippen


It's amazing how masses can misperceive the same thing - jordan won with ONLY pippen - that's the right way to look at it and that's what the stats and facts support

Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for 1 of them, yet MJ won 6 without this - pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg

[hateraid]

It's amazing how masses can misperceive the same thing - jordan won with ONLY pippen - that's the right way to look at it and that's what the stats and facts support

Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 ppg for 1 of them, yet MJ won 6 without this - pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg

Because he did only win with Pippen? Lol. Talk about avoiding facts.

[Sulico]

durant actually scored MORE than curry, so curry was wide open a lot, while mj faced max defensive attention his entire career because he never had an elite-producing sidekick that was a comparable threat.






MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif


During the Bulls-Pistons series, the Pistons' 4th quarter policy was to double-team MJ every single time he touched the ball.. Here's an examle from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuG19_1yrrQ&t=01h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:



"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).



SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmq3FHY5TYo

Ok. Michael Jordan vs Shaq, another player in contention for most defended player ever. Elimination game, that Shaq wins.

There is no point of tracking Shaq's coverage in this game, he is double-teamed EVERY time he gets the ball.

MJ 1st quarter meaningful possessions:

1 - single coverage, blow by his defender, misses layup
2 - double-teamed, TO
3 - double-teamed, TO
4 - single coverage, gives it up
5 - fast break
6 - single coverage, lost it out of opponent's leg
7 - single coverage, gives it up
8 - single coverage, scores

2nd quarter

1 - single coverage, ISO miss
2 - fast break, ignores open teammates, miss
3 - double-teamed, TO
4 - fouled after off. rebound and pass
5 - fast break asst
6 - single coverage, TO
7 - single coverage, long 2 miss
8 - single coverage, spins away from defender but contended by C
9 - asst off TO
10 - single coverage, circus shot layup
11 - single coverage, layup fouled
12 - single coverage, blows by defender, contested by PF

3rd quarter

1 - single coverage, shots 3pt
2 - missed open aley-oop
3 - double-teamed postup miss
4 - single coverage, TO
5 - double-teamed, pass-recieve 3pt
6 - single coverage, ISO long 2 and rebound
7 - single coverage, asst to free throws
8 - single coverage blow-by layup

4th quarter

1 - single coverage, blow-by, fouled
2 - single coverage, fouled
3 - double-teamed, fadeway 2
4 - fastbreak ORB and score
5 - double-teamed, fouled
6 - double-teamed, fouled
7 - single coverage, drive and pass
8 - fast break
9 - single coverage, TO
10 - double-teamed, passed
11 - single coverage, forced to pass at the rim
12 - single coverage, brick
13 - single coverage, pass in the air
14 - single coverage, TO


Now compare that to Shaq double-temed on every possession on other end.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmq3FHY5TYo

Ok. Michael Jordan vs Shaq, another player in contention for most defended player ever. Elimination game, that Shaq wins.

There is no point of tracking Shaq's coverage in this game, he is double-teamed EVERY time he gets the ball.

MJ 1st quarter meaningful possessions:

1 - single coverage, blow by his defender, misses layup
2 - double-teamed, TO
3 - double-teamed, TO
4 - single coverage, gives it up
5 - fast break
6 - single coverage, lost it out of opponent's leg
7 - single coverage, gives it up
8 - single coverage, scores

2nd quarter

1 - single coverage, ISO miss
2 - fast break, ignores open teammates, miss
3 - double-teamed, TO
4 - fouled after off. rebound and pass
5 - fast break asst
6 - single coverage, TO
7 - single coverage, long 2 miss
8 - single coverage, spins away from defender but contended by C
9 - asst off TO
10 - single coverage, circus shot layup
11 - single coverage, layup fouled
12 - single coverage, blows by defender, contested by PF

3rd quarter

1 - single coverage, shots 3pt
2 - missed open aley-oop
3 - double-teamed postup miss
4 - single coverage, TO
5 - double-teamed, pass-recieve 3pt
6 - single coverage, ISO long 2 and rebound
7 - single coverage, asst to free throws
8 - single coverage blow-by layup

4th quarter

1 - single coverage, blow-by, fouled
2 - single coverage, fouled
3 - double-teamed, fadeway 2
4 - fastbreak ORB and score
5 - double-teamed, fouled
6 - double-teamed, fouled
7 - single coverage, drive and pass
8 - fast break
9 - single coverage, TO
10 - double-teamed, passed
11 - single coverage, forced to pass at the rim
12 - single coverage, brick
13 - single coverage, pass in the air
14 - single coverage, TO


Now compare that to Shaq double-temed on every possession on other end.


Show me where Shaq was doubled on every possession - show me the game and the video

I showed you numerous video where MJ was doubled literally every possession, while you haven't

[Sulico]

Show me where Shaq was doubled on every possession - show me the game and the video

I showed you numerous video where MJ was doubled literally every possession, while you haven't

The video is in my post, what are you talking about?

EVERY possession Shaq is double teamed.