Lebron is clearly done and stuck on 4, so 3ball wins this thing and was right

[3ba11]

Klutch Sports wrong.. Nick Wright wrong... Lebron fam wrong

Lebron needed to team-hop for star scorers at 3rd option (super-team) and 2nd options capable of matching his scoring for entire playoff runs or Finals wins (1b's), yet he barely won 4 rings with so many asterisks that it's hard to keep track (2 modified seasons, 1 key suspension, 2 teammate bailouts, and forming super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning like Iverson/Dwight/Kidd)

In addition to having more help (3rd star scorers and 1b's), Lebron has far less accolades and production rate, aka stats (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, PPG, plus/minus or raptor (https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2021/IPef8B.gif))

[ELITEpower23]

No Pip

[Vino24]

No Pip

No chip

[ELITEpower23]

No chip

End scene :pimp:

[3ba11]

No chip


Only Jordan won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or averaging 25 ppg in at least one of the Finals

[hateraid]

If the copy and paste function broke on 3ball's computer would he cease to exist?

[dankok8]

I wouldn't be so sure. I think a healthy Lakers team could easily win the title. Warriors are a Curry injury away from being irrelevant, CP3 gets hurt every playoffs, and the Nets have a declined Harden and no Kyrie. For all their struggles, the Lakers are 3.5 games out of 3rd place and 0.5 games out of 4th place! And even with a slightly worse Lebron they have a top 10 player (Davis) and another top 20 player (Westbrook). But of course they have to stay healthy.

[3ba11]

If the copy and paste function broke on 3ball's computer would he cease to exist?


everyone's stats are inflated compared to MJ because they had periods where they didn't face maximum defensive attention, due to equal-scoring partners in various playoff runs to attract equal defensive attention... Only MJ didn't have equal-scoring partners, thereby facing maximum defensive attention for his entire career (UNinflated stats - the baseline - the goat standard to which everyone else is compared).

[SouBeachTalents]

I guess he’ll have to settle for having only 4 FMVP, 2nd most in NBA history, and double your real favorite players FMVP count.

[hateraid]

everyone's stats are inflated compared to MJ because they had periods where they didn't face maximum defensive attention, due to equal-scoring partners in various playoff runs to attract equal defensive attention... Only MJ didn't have equal-scoring partners, thereby facing maximum defensive attention for his entire career (UNinflated stats - the baseline - the goat standard to which everyone else is compared).

So you answer my post with a copy and paste. Hilarious

[3ba11]

I guess he’ll have to settle for only having 4 FMVP, 2nd most in NBA history, and double your real favorite players count.


Lebron only learned to team-hop - he never learned to WIN (organic).

Specifically, his skills never evolved from having the offense revolve around him and the team too reliant on him, similar to MJ before he learned to WIN (organic)...

Unfortunately, Lebron never learned to win, so he had to team-hop for super-teams (talent-based winning)... He simply imposes spot-up roles that stall young players thereby needing ready-made stars to win - this is talent-based winning, which loses to organic ball movement (lottery record vs Spurs, Mavs, Warriors)

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron only learned to team-hop - he never learned to WIN (organic).

Specifically, his skills never evolved from having the offense revolve around him and the team too reliant on him, similar to MJ before he learned to WIN (organic)... Lebron never learned to win, so he had to team-hop for super-teams (talent-based winning)... He simply imposes spot-up roles that stall young players thereby needing ready-made stars to win
Copy and paste all you’d like, nothing is going to change the facts I posted above. The fact LeBron is consensus top 2 and even GOAT on some lists proves that despite 8 years and 40,000 posts you lost this thing quite decisively and were dead wrong.

[RRR3]

I guess he’ll have to settle for having only 4 FMVP, 2nd most in NBA history, and double your real favorite players FMVP count.
Yikes he had no answer for this.

[3ba11]

Copy and paste all you’d like, nothing is going to change the facts I posted above. The fact LeBron is consensus top 2 and even GOAT on some lists proves that despite 8 years and 40,000 posts you lost this thing quite decisively and were dead wrong.


Lebron ring-chased - he team-hopped to win - he literally joined the #2 PER/VORP/WS/BPM in the league (aka the #2 player) heading into the 2011 season... That's like Magic teaming up with Bird, yet they went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss.. That's the worst anyone can do.

So stuff your WWE, colluded FMVP's where the sun don't shine - he literally defrauded his way to 10 Finals appearances by forming a super-team in conference that 1-star teams were winning.. Stole Arenas' sidekick to beat Arenas in his first playoff win.. and on and on .. his simpleton skillset always needs MOAR HELP all year long because he's reducing everyone to spot-up shooter..

he's trash and not top 10 no matter what you hear on the boob toob.. non-elite jumpshooting skill so he can't facilitate ball movement off-ball that busts the game open so his offenses aren't #1 ever

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron ring-chased - he team-hopped to win - he literally joined the #2 PER/VORP/WS/BPM in the league (aka the #2 player) heading into the 2011 season... That's like Magic teaming up with Bird, yet they went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss.. That's the worst anyone can do.

So stuff your WWE, colluded FMVP's where the sun don't shine - he literally defrauded his way to 10 Finals appearances by forming a super-team in conference that 1-star teams were winning.. Stole Arenas' sidekick to beat Arenas in his first playoff win.. and on and on .. his simpleton skillset always needs MOAR HELP all year long because he's reducing everyone to spot-up shooter.. he's trash and not top 10 no matter what you hear on the boob toob.

So you admit that Lebron was the #1 player in the league in 09 and 10. Nice

[SouBeachTalents]

So you admit that Lebron was the #1 player in the league in 09 and 10. Nice
Yep, not only that, but a top 2 player of all time, while his favorite player wasn’t even better than Pau Gasol. Really shot himself in the foot on that one :lol

[3ba11]

So you admit that Lebron was the #1 player in the league in 09 and 10. Nice


Contrary to mainstream, I would rank Wade above Lebron during that time period (09/10) due to his knowledge of how to win that he passed on to Lebron in 11/12, and Wade infact being the #1 option in the 11' Playoffs (wade would've had 2-0 lead in FMVP over bron if not for the goat choke).. Wade also outperformed Lebron against the 10' Celtics and was overall a better "closer" despite slightly lower regular season stats.

[RRR3]

Contrary to mainstream, I would rank Wade above Lebron during that time period (09/10) due to his knowledge of how to win that he passed on to Lebron in 11/12, and Wade infact being the #1 option in the 11' Playoffs (wade would've had 2-0 lead in FMVP over bron if not for the goat choke).. Wade also outperformed Lebron against the 10' Celtics and was overall a better "closer" despite slightly lower regular season stats.
Wade lost to the same Hawks team LeBron sodomized in 09 and you don’t punish him for that so let’s not act like you have any actual ranking method besides “LeBron bad because I’m mad he’s better than Kobe”

[SouBeachTalents]

Contrary to mainstream, I would rank Wade above Lebron during that time period (09/10) due to his knowledge of how to win that he passed on to Lebron in 11/12, and Wade infact being the #1 option in the 11' Playoffs (wade would've had 2-0 lead in FMVP over bron if not for the goat choke).. Wade also outperformed Lebron against the 10' Celtics and was overall a better "closer" despite slightly lower regular season stats.
Funny how this learning to win intangible just doesn’t exist for Shaq, who taught Kobe to win by outscoring him and winning FMVP, in the triangle to boot, for 3 straight titles. Yet he isn’t even in your top 10, while Kobe’s 2nd despite being outside the top 20 in virtually every advanced metric.

[ELITEpower23]

I guess he’ll have to settle for having only 4 FMVP, 2nd most in NBA history, and double your real favorite players FMVP count.

No answer in sight :oldlol:


Another win bois

:dancin

[Phoenix]

Yep, you won OP. Stand by your mailbox, a box of cookies is headed your way at some point.

[000]

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
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All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy
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[3ba11]

Funny how this learning to win intangible just doesn’t exist for Shaq, who taught Kobe to win by outscoring him and winning FMVP, in the triangle to boot, for 3 straight titles. Yet he isn’t even in your top 10, while Kobe’s 2nd despite being outside the top 20 in virtually every advanced metric.


You have to take alpha into consideration - Lebron didn't go into Miami and take the team over - Wade was infact the #1 option in the 11' Playoffs - Wade would've had 2-0 lead in FMVP over bron if not for the goat choke!

So Wade was definitely superior from 09-11' - he outperformed Lebron against the 10' Celtics and was a better "closer" despite slightly lower regular season stats.

[SouBeachTalents]

You have to take alpha into consideration - Lebron didn't go into Miami and take the team over - Wade was infact the #1 option in the 11' Playoffs - Wade would've had 2-0 lead in FMVP over bron if not for the goat choke!

So Wade was definitely superior from 09-11' - he outperformed Lebron against the 10' Celtics and was a better "closer" despite slightly lower regular season stats.
That literally has nothing to do with anything I said. Shaq actually had a 3-0 lead in FMVP over Kobe, yet he gets no credit for teaching Kobe how to win and is outside your top 10, while Kobe’s 2nd.

[meat]

Did this guy just refer to himself in 3rd person? You're not that important bro.

[3ba11]

That literally has nothing to do with anything I said. Shaq actually had a 3-0 lead in FMVP over Kobe, yet he gets no credit for teaching Kobe how to win and is outside your top 10, while Kobe’s 2nd.


Kobe was indeed raised, but he has other things going for him like learning how to win (organic) and being able to win against maximum defensive attention in playoffs and Finals (no equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention in 09' or 10')..

His elite jumpshooting skill and goat scoring versatility allows the best strategy (ball movement) and the best teammate fits for the best team ceilings/Finals records.

[RRR3]

Kobe was indeed raised, but he has other things going for him like learning how to win (organic) and being able to win against maximum defensive attention in playoffs and Finals (no equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention in 09' or 10')
Those words don’t actually mean anything they’re just stuff you cherry picked to try and make LeBron look bad. But nothing you do will ever make Kobe catch up to LeBron, that debate is over. You lost. Sorry champ.

[3ba11]

Those words don’t actually mean anything they’re just stuff you cherry picked to try and make LeBron look bad. But nothing you do will ever make Kobe catch up to LeBron, that debate is over. You lost. Sorry champ.


Equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention

That's a fact

So guys that won without equal-scoring partners defeated maximum defensive attention, aka carry-job and they carried the scoring load..

Kobe did that in 09' and 10', while Lebron never won while facing max defensive attention because he always had equal-scoring partners in the Playoffs and/or Finals for every ring - he never had a double-figure gap over his 2nd option in the playoffs and Finals for any of his rings.. He never carried the scoring load on the Finals level.

[ShawkFactory]

Equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention

That's a fact

So guys that won without equal-scoring partners defeated maximum defensive attention, aka carry-job and they carried the scoring load..

Kobe did that in 09' and 10', while Lebron never won while facing max defensive attention because he always had equal-scoring partners in the Playoffs and/or Finals for every ring - he never had a double-figure gap over his 2nd option in the playoffs and Finals for any of his rings.. He never carried the scoring load on the Finals level.

It is not.

[RRR3]

Equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention

That's a fact

So guys that won without equal-scoring partners defeated maximum defensive attention, aka carry-job and they carried the scoring load..

Kobe did that in 09' and 10', while Lebron never won while facing max defensive attention because he always had equal-scoring partners in the Playoffs and/or Finals for every ring - he never had a double-figure gap over his 2nd option in the playoffs and Finals for any of his rings.. He never carried the scoring load on the Finals level.
I’m astounded by how stupid you are tbh.

[Spurs m8]

4?

That's a stretch lol

[3ba11]

It is not.


True, oftentimes they attract MORE defensive attention, especially in the clutch




It is not.



PLAYOFF PPG

87' Worthy..... 23.6
87' Magic...... 18.6

86' McHale.... 24.9
86' Bird.......... 25.1

16' Kyrie........ 25.2
16' Lebron'..... 26.2

11' Wade........ 24.5
11' Lebron...... 23.7


^^^ At some point in everyone's playoff career, they had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal-defensive attention, and therefore weren't facing maximum defensive coverage - any period without max defensive coverage are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who faced max defensive coverage for his entire career by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run

[ShawkFactory]

Repeating yourself doesn’t turn a non-fact into one.

[3ba11]

Repeating yourself doesn’t turn a non-fact into one.


It's true in theory

And it was said that way so the concept of maximum defensive attention could be easily understood.

MJ faced maximum defensive attention for his entire career by never having an elite or comparable-scoring teammate, while everyone else in history had parts of their career with equal-scoring partners that garnered comparable defensive attention, thus inflating those stats compared to MJ's full career of facing maximum defensive attention

[ShawkFactory]

It's true in theory

And it was said that way so the concept of maximum defensive attention could be easily understood.

MJ faced maximum defensive attention for his entire career by never having an elite or comparable-scoring teammate, while everyone else in history had parts of their career with equal-scoring partners that garnered comparable defensive attention, thus inflating those stats compared to MJ's full career of facing maximum defensive attention

Aaaaaand there it is :roll:

[3ba11]

Aaaaaand there it is :roll:


Exactly, I'm right.. thank you. I'm surprised you're celebrating it

Everyone in history has inflated stats compared to MJ by virtue of spending parts of their career with equal-scoring teammates that reduced the defensive attention they faced..

Any period without facing maximum defensive attention as the only elite scoring threat are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always had the toughest path to stats by facing max defensive attention for his entire career (no elite or equal-scoring partners)

[ShawkFactory]

It’s just funny because by saying “it’s true in theory” proves once and for all what we all knew: that you’re hypotheticals or arguments or whatever the fvck you want to call them don’t deal with reality.

You just outed yourself bro.

[3ba11]

It’s just funny because by saying “it’s true in theory” proves once and for all what we all knew: that you’re hypotheticals or arguments or whatever the fvck you want to call them don’t deal with reality.

You just outed yourself bro.


You've passed the initial level of hoop knowledge by understanding the theory, so now you can better understand the actual games more than the Shannon Sharpe's of the world (media).

So congrats are in order.. You're actually doing better than Bron, who skipped college (the fundamentals and theory, aka facing a pure zone and developing the jumpshooting & ball movement fundamentals to beat it)

Ultimately, you now understand that MJ's stats are the BASELINE - everyone else's are inflated at some point by having equal-scoring partners to reduce the defensive attention they faced.. Only MJ passed the ultimate test by facing max defensive attention for his entire career

[ShawkFactory]

“It’s true in theory” is what people say before something has been put into practice. Basketball has been played for a hundred years so that statement doesn’t apply. You’re just full of shit :lol

[3ba11]

“It’s true in theory” is what people say before something has been put into practice. Basketball has been played for a hundred years so that statement doesn’t apply. You’re just full of shit :lol


^^^ weird reaction to successfully educating yourself and increasing your understanding but okay..

[HunterSThompson]

No Pip


pippens a career long sidekick and was never really much more than that so saying "no pip no chip" isn't even an insult

had pippen won a finals mvp like wade or averaged 25 plus in the finals like kyrie and Davis or been a league mvp without MJ like Westbrook was without lebron then you might have something

[ShawkFactory]

^^^ weird reaction to successfully educating yourself and increasing your understanding but okay..

Quite the opposite. I’ve been watching basketball for a very long time so your elementary bullshit doesn’t fly

[Baller789]

pippens a career long sidekick and was never really much more than that so saying "no pip no chip" isn't even an insult

had pippen won a finals mvp like wade or averaged 25 plus in the finals like kyrie and Davis or been a league mvp without MJ like Westbrook was without lebron then you might have something


This.

They are just regurgitating the same $h!t because it's catchy.

[TheGoatest]

It's hilarious that some think 4 rings/4 Finals MVPs on 3 different teams/coaches in 2 conferences isn't enough to be GOAT.
If Jordan's 2 extra rings are the difference maker to put him over LeBron, then how badly do the 5 extra rings Bill Russell has over Jordan obliterate the argument that Jordan is the GOAT? :oldlol:
Now sit back and enjoy the goal post moving show...

[Baller789]

It's hilarious that some think 4 rings/4 Finals MVPs on 3 different teams/coaches in 2 conferences isn't enough to be GOAT.
If Jordan's 2 extra rings are the difference maker to put him over LeBron, then how badly do the 5 extra rings Bill Russell has over Jordan obliterate the argument that Jordan is the GOAT? :oldlol:
Now sit back and enjoy the goal post moving show...

Russell's championships with one team does blow everyone else's out of the water.
Youre saying the GOAT achievement is to win as many rings with as many teams.

Now who's moving goal posts?

[Vino24]

Russell's championships with one team does blow everyone else's out of the water.
Youre saying the GOAT achievement is to win as many rings with as many teams.

Now who's moving goal posts?
Like 8 chips were decided by a field goal. Bill Russell is the goat hands down

[outofstomach]

This.

They are just regurgitating the same $h!t because it's catchy.

they literally don’t even respond to OP’s points or any actual valid critiques of lebron’s ways of winning and his questionable skill set, it’s literally just $tats and/or he has 4 FMVPS :lol

[ShawkFactory]

they literally don’t even respond to OP’s points or any actual valid critiques of lebron’s ways of winning and his questionable skill set, it’s literally just $tats and/or he has 4 FMVPS :lol

Do you actually read them? Or are you another fanboy who checks out when somebody goes in the direction that they agree with? Or are you OP?

[Axe]

Op is a fraud.

[DevBooker'sMask]

It's hilarious that some think 4 rings/4 Finals MVPs on 3 different teams/coaches in 2 conferences isn't enough to be GOAT.
If Jordan's 2 extra rings are the difference maker to put him over LeBron, then how badly do the 5 extra rings Bill Russell has over Jordan obliterate the argument that Jordan is the GOAT? :oldlol:
Now sit back and enjoy the goal post moving show...

thats valid i need to hear a valid response

[outofstomach]

Do you actually read them? Or are you another fanboy who checks out when somebody goes in the direction that they agree with? Or are you OP?
yeah most of them make sense to me

[RogueBorg]

It's hilarious that some think 4 rings/4 Finals MVPs on 3 different teams/coaches in 2 conferences isn't enough to be GOAT.
If Jordan's 2 extra rings are the difference maker to put him over LeBron, then how badly do the 5 extra rings Bill Russell has over Jordan obliterate the argument that Jordan is the GOAT? :oldlol:
Now sit back and enjoy the goal post moving show...

It's the 6 Finals losses that nuiilfy Lilbron and the manner in which they occurred. Getting swept not once, not twice, but three times and the stain of 2011 to a Dallas team that had one legit player which Lilbron averaged 17 ppg being guarded but that little Chupacabra.

BTW, Russell's not the GOAT on anyone list because he sucked offensively. Can't be GOAT averaging 15 ppg. Lilbron's higher than Russell because he was a two-way player, Russell was not.

[expansionera]

Like 8 chips were decided by a field goal. Bill Russell is the goat hands down

1. Bill Russell
2. Lebron James
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Tim Duncan
6. Steph Curry
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Michael Jordan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Shaquille O’Neal

[ImKobe]

thats valid i need to hear a valid response

What's valid about this? MJ was the best player in the league for a decade straight and dominated the RS/POs/Finals on a level that no player ever has in league history. There's literally 0 arguments for Lebron. Ok, so he won 4 rings under 3 different franchises after constructing a super team every time, that's what makes him better?

[SaintzFury13]

Do you actually read them? Or are you another fanboy who checks out when somebody goes in the direction that they agree with? Or are you OP?

outofstomach is literally incapable of processing any thoughts within his brain. It makes sense to me that he thinks 3ball makes good points.

[HighFlyer23]

LeBron James is a greater talent than Michael Jordan ... But Jordan was the superior player

2011 Finals took LeBron out of the GOAT conversation ...

[SATAN]

1-9

[Hey Yo]

What's valid about this? MJ was the best player in the league for a decade straight and dominated the RS/POs/Finals on a level that no player ever has in league history. There's literally 0 arguments for Lebron. Ok, so he won 4 rings under 3 different franchises after constructing a super team every time, that's what makes him better?

MJ didnt / couldn't even play for a decade straight.


:roll:

[SaintzFury13]

What's valid about this? MJ was the best player in the league for a decade straight and dominated the RS/POs/Finals on a level that no player ever has in league history. There's literally 0 arguments for Lebron. Ok, so he won 4 rings under 3 different franchises after constructing a super team every time, that's what makes him better?

In what way are the 2020 Lakers a super team?

[8Ball]

Seeing LeBron climb from top 10 to top 1 with these 4 championships has been the greatest honour of my life to witness, even greater than getting married and seeing my new born.

[3ba11]

In what way are the 2020 Lakers a super team?


The 2020 Lakers didn't have a all-star scorer at 3rd option (super-team), but it doesn't matter because AD was the biggest producer on the team in regular season and playoffs - he led the NBA in playoff scoring and outplayed the future league MVP Jokic - that's the most help possible

[Hey Yo]

The 2020 Lakers didn't have a all-star scorer at 3rd option (super-team), but it doesn't matter because AD was the biggest producer on the team in regular season and playoffs - he led the NBA in playoff scoring and outplayed the future league MVP Jokic - that's the most help possible

Pippen All-NBA on both sides of the court for 5 of the 6 titles = the most help possible

[3ba11]

Pippen All-NBA on both sides of the court for 5 of the 6 titles = the most help possible


Dumb media awards? That isn't an argument

Where's the performance and stats - that's what matters.

No one won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. Pippen never came anywhere near this standard or help

[Hey Yo]

Dumb media awards? That isn't an argument

Where's the performance and stats - that's what matters.

No one won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. Pippen never came anywhere near this standard or help

If performance is what matters, then why always cite a player is an All-star? You know, the ones that's voted on by the fans?

Fans all-stars are legit, but media All-NBA isnt?

Take the L chico and move on.

[AirBonner]

Dumb media awards? That isn't an argument

Where's the performance and stats - that's what matters.

No one won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. Pippen never came anywhere near this standard or help

Ok than MJ’s mvp’s fmvp’s and dpoy award are dumb

[3ba11]

Ok than MJ’s mvp’s fmvp’s and dpoy award are dumb


MJ has goat stats and performance, just like Wade, Giannis, Dirk or anyone else that was good

Pippen has literally nothing - he never dominated and his peak raw production equaled Larry Hughes.. he never hit a big shot.. never averaged 25 or FMVP like everyone else that won more than 2 Finals

[Airupthere]

He could have had 6 rings if he didnt let barea and boris diaw take away his rings.

[AirBonner]

Mental illness.

[ELITEpower23]

OP is a LeBron fan

[ShawkFactory]

Dumb media awards? That isn't an argument

Where's the performance and stats - that's what matters.

No one won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals.. Pippen never came anywhere near this standard or help

Bro you mention Mike Brown being a future COY in 2006 all the time :lol

And you just made a pro AD argument by mentioning Jokic’s MVP. Literally one post before this one

[Gimmedarock]

Bron be GOAT. Rings are only part of it. For me, it’s just watching them play. Bron clearly does more and against better teams. Bill Russell has rings but he’s not even a top 10 player. Come on son.

[Johnny32]

jordan had more help compared to the competition. pippen was better than the opposing players second option in every finals the bulls played in besides 96 vs sea.

[Johnny32]

91 finals. pippen (21, 9, 7 on 45%) vs worthy (19, 3, 2 on 48%, dnp gm 5)
92 finals. pippen (21, 8, 8 on 48%) vs porter (16, 5, 4, on 47%)
93 finals. pippen (21, 9, 8 on 44%) vs kj (17, 7, 3 on 42%)
96 finals. pippen (16, 8, 5 on 34%) vs gp (18, 7, 6, on 44%)
97 finals. pippen (20, 8, 4, on 42%) vs stockton (15, 9, 4 on 50%)
98 finals. pippen ( 16, 7, 5 on 41%) vs hornacek (11, 3, 3, on 41%)

summary: jordan's opp's had the better second option in 1 of 6 finals.

[Johnny32]

let's check lebron's second option in his finals appearances.

2007 finals. hughes (1, 3, 1, on 10%, played 44 mins in the series)
2011 finals. wade was the first option. blame spo not me.
2012 finals. wade (23, 6, 5, on 44%) vs westbrook (27, 7, 6, on 43%)
2013 finals. wade (20, 5, 4, on 48%) vs parker (16, 6, 2 on 41%)
2014 finals. wade (15, 4, 3, on 44%) vs kawhi (18, 6, 2 on 61%) and duncan (15, 10, 2 on 57%)
2015 finals. kyrie (dnp games 2-6)
2016 finals. kyrie (27, 4, 4, on 47%) vs klay (20, 3, 2 on 42%)
2017 finals. kyrie (29, 4, 4, on 47%) vs steph (27, 9, 8, on 44%)
2018 finals. love (19, 11, 2 on 41%) vs steph (28, 7, 6, on 40%)
2020 finals. ad (25, 11, 3 on 57% vs bam (15, 6, 3 on 54%, dnp games 5-6)

summary: lebron's opp's had the better second option in 5 maybe 6 of his 9 finals as the first option.

[Johnny32]

now let's look at the all defensive help each player had.

91 - pippen
92 - pippen
93 - pippen, grant
96 - pippen, rodman
97 - pippen
98 - pippen

07 - n/a
12 - n/a
13 - n/a
14 - n/a
15 - n/a
16 - n/a
17 - n/a
18 - n/a
20 - ad

summary: jordan had far more defensive help.

[3ba11]

.
Pippen's worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle more shots


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


Pippen shot below tthe league average true shooting every year of his playoff career except 89-91' and 02'

His true shooting was worst-ever in the 93' and 96-98' Playoffs, including 46% true shooting in the 93' Finals and 34% FG in the 96' Finals or 98' Finals

[3ba11]

.



let's check lebron's second option in his finals appearances.





Pippen's peak capability was 16-22 ppg, so he mostly tied opposing 2nd options (barely outscoring them or getting outscored himself), while his worst-ever efficiency meant that he was outplayed in the vast majority of series (see chart above for worst-ever efficiency) - for example, Pippen's 16.6 on 39% was destroyed by Smits' 16.2 on 55% in the 98' ECF - this was standard for Pippen.

Pippen occasionally outscored opposing 2nd options (about half the series in his career), while Lebron's sidekicks outscore the league MVP (11' ECF, 16' Finals, 20' WCF) - so MJ had a Klay-level sidekick that could outscore opposing 2nd options, while Lebron had sidekicks that compare to Kareem or Kobe by virtue of achieving elite stats and outplaying the best players in league history..

In addition to juggernaut sidekicks that produce far more than Pippen, Lebron had a extra star teammate (Big 3) - so he had a 2nd pippen - a 3rd offensive star that Jordan never had.. These 3rd stars reduce Wade or Kyrie's stats, yet they still outplayed Pippen.

Ultimately, Pippen was a low-producer that barely outscored opposing 2nd options and never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series (carried), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners in the 11', 16', and 20' Playoffs that routinely outscored opposing 1st options and league MVP's... And he had a 2nd pippen teammate (3rd star)!!

It's no comparison, smh

[Johnny32]

.



Pippen's peak capability was 16-22 ppg, so he mostly tied opposing 2nd options (barely outscoring them or getting outscored himself), while his worst-ever efficiency meant that he was outplayed in the vast majority of series (see chart above for worst-ever efficiency) - for example, Pippen's 16.6 on 39% was destroyed by Smits' 16.2 on 55% in the 98' ECF - this was standard for Pippen.

Pippen occasionally outscored opposing 2nd options (about half the series in his career), while Lebron's sidekicks outscore the league MVP (11' ECF, 16' Finals, 20' WCF) - so MJ had a Klay-level sidekick that could outscore opposing 2nd options, while Lebron had sidekicks that compare to Kareem or Kobe by virtue of achieving elite stats and outplaying the best players in league history..

In addition to juggernaut sidekicks that produce far more than Pippen, Lebron had a extra star teammate (Big 3) - so he had a 2nd pippen - a 3rd offensive star that Jordan never had.. These 3rd stars reduce Wade or Kyrie's stats, yet they still outplayed Pippen.

Ultimately, Pippen was a low-producer that barely outscored opposing 2nd options and never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series (carried), while Lebron had equal-scoring partners in the 11', 16', and 20' Playoffs that routinely outscored opposing 1st options and league MVP's... And he had a 2nd pippen teammate (3rd star)!!

It's no comparison, smh

91 finals. pippen (21, 9, 7 on 45%) vs worthy (19, 3, 2 on 48%, dnp gm 5)
92 finals. pippen (21, 8, 8 on 48%) vs porter (16, 5, 4, on 47%)
93 finals. pippen (21, 9, 8 on 44%) vs kj (17, 7, 3 on 42%)
96 finals. pippen (16, 8, 5 on 34%) vs gp (18, 7, 6, on 44%)
97 finals. pippen (20, 8, 4, on 42%) vs stockton (15, 9, 4 on 50%)
98 finals. pippen (16, 7, 5 on 41%) vs hornacek (11, 3, 3, on 41%)

summary: jordan's opp's had the better second option in 1 of 6 finals.

it's like he's in denial.

[Johnny32]

let's check lebron's second option in his finals appearances.

2007 finals. hughes (1, 3, 1, on 10%, played 44 mins in the series)
2011 finals. wade was the first option. blame spo not me.
2012 finals. wade (23, 6, 5, on 44%) vs westbrook (27, 7, 6, on 43%)
2013 finals. wade (20, 5, 4, on 48%) vs parker (16, 6, 2 on 41%)
2014 finals. wade (15, 4, 3, on 44%) vs kawhi (18, 6, 2 on 61%) and duncan (15, 10, 2 on 57%)
2015 finals. kyrie (dnp games 2-6)
2016 finals. kyrie (27, 4, 4, on 47%) vs klay (20, 3, 2 on 42%)
2017 finals. kyrie (29, 4, 4, on 47%) vs steph (27, 9, 8, on 44%)
2018 finals. love (19, 11, 2 on 41%) vs steph (28, 7, 6, on 40%)
2020 finals. ad (25, 11, 3 on 57% vs bam (15, 6, 3 on 54%, dnp games 5-6)

summary: lebron's opp's had the better second option in 5 maybe 6 of his 9 finals as the first option.

like big time denial.

[3ba11]

let's check lebron's second option in his finals appearances.

2007 finals. hughes (1, 3, 1, on 10%, played 44 mins in the series)
2011 finals. wade was the first option. blame spo not me.
2012 finals. wade (23, 6, 5, on 44%) vs westbrook (27, 7, 6, on 43%)
2013 finals. wade (20, 5, 4, on 48%) vs parker (16, 6, 2 on 41%)
2014 finals. wade (15, 4, 3, on 44%) vs kawhi (18, 6, 2 on 61%) and duncan (15, 10, 2 on 57%)
2015 finals. kyrie (dnp games 2-6)
2016 finals. kyrie (27, 4, 4, on 47%) vs klay (20, 3, 2 on 42%)
2017 finals. kyrie (29, 4, 4, on 47%) vs steph (27, 9, 8, on 44%)
2018 finals. love (19, 11, 2 on 41%) vs steph (28, 7, 6, on 40%)
2020 finals. ad (25, 11, 3 on 57% vs bam (15, 6, 3 on 54%, dnp games 5-6)

summary: lebron's opp's had the better second option in 5 maybe 6 of his 9 finals as the first option.

like big time denial.


Your data shows Lebron's sidekicks outscoring opposing #1 options and league MVP's, while Pippen tied the opposing 2nd option with worse efficiency (16-22 ppg).

And Lebron had a 2 pippen's (big 3), so his 3rd option was always far superior and outplayed the league MVP in the 11' ECF... Only Lebron has 3rd options that destroy the league MVP - it's the most help EVER

[Johnny32]

Your data shows Lebron's sidekicks outscoring opposing #1 options and league MVP's, while Pippen tied the opposing 2nd option with worse efficiency (16-22 ppg).

And Lebron had a 2 pippen's (big 3), so his 3rd option was always far superior and outplayed the league MVP in the 11' ECF... Only Lebron has 3rd options that destroy the league MVP - it's the most help EVER

fun fact: pippen outscored magic in 91.

[3ba11]

fun fact: pippen outscored magic in 91.


Wade, Kyrie and AD routinely outscored the opposing #1 option and either matched or outscored Lebron for an entire playoff run (11', 16', 20').. By virtue of having equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention to win (shared load).

Otoh, Pippen almost never outscored the opposing #1 option and never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series - so all eyes were on Jordan as he always had to defeat max defensive attention (carry-job)

[Johnny32]

lol you're embarrassingly clueless. lebron's opp's had the better third option in arguably every finals but 1.

[3ba11]

lol you're embarrassingly clueless. lebron's opp's had the better third option in arguably every finals but 1.



* prime Bosh > Mavs 3rd option

* prime Bosh > benchwarmer baby Harden

* prime Bosh > 37-year Ginobili or 32-year Parker

* Love > Harrison Barnes


Only Lebron had an 11-time all-star at 3rd option - no one ever had that before

[Johnny32]

13 finals. bosh (12, 9, 2 on 46%) vs kawhi (15, 11, 1 on 51%)
14 finals. bosh (14, 5, 1 on 55%) vs duncan (15, 10, 2 on 57%)

lol clueless.

[Johnny32]

16 finals. love (9, 7, 1 on 36%) vs dray (17, 10, 7 on 49%)

like embarrassingly clueless.

[3ba11]

13 finals. bosh (12, 9, 2 on 46%) vs kawhi (15, 11, 1 on 51%)
14 finals. bosh (14, 5, 1 on 55%) vs duncan (15, 10, 2 on 57%)

lol clueless.


Only Bosh was reduced to spot-up shooter, so his numbers were often deflated, but everyone knows that prime Bosh > the Spurs or Mavs' 3rd best player and also pre-KD Warriors

[AirBonner]

Bosh had a 0pt finals game. Imagine if MJ had a teammate that produced that. 3ball would use that as ammo no doubt

[Johnny32]

Only Bosh was reduced to spot-up shooter, so his numbers were often deflated, but everyone knows that prime Bosh > the Spurs or Mavs' 3rd best player and also pre-KD Warriors

your excuses for bosh's lack of production doesn't matter.

facts and stats > random mid 40s jordone fan desperately trying to protect his childhood heroes legacy

[ELITEpower23]

Bosh had a 0pt finals game. Imagine if MJ had a teammate that produced that. 3ball would use that as ammo no doubt

+1

Game 7 2013 Finals
PTS
LeBron = 37
Bosh = 0
Allen = 0
Miller = 0

Bron's 3rd, 4th, and 5th option = zero points on 14 shots. They were SHOOK in Game 7. LeKing was not.

Goat stuff

[3ba11]

Bosh had a 0pt finals game. Imagine if MJ had a teammate that produced that. 3ball would use that as ammo no doubt


Lebron had robbed Bosh of the capacity to step up by reducing him to spot-up shooter - the destruction of Bosh and most teammates exposes Lebron's simpleton skillset that turns everyone to spot-up shooter

[AirBonner]

+1

Game 7 2013 Finals
PTS
LeBron = 37
Bosh = 0
Allen = 0
Miller = 0

Bron's 3rd, 4th, and 5th option = zero points on 14 shots. They were SHOOK in Game 7. LeKing was not.

Goat stuff

Holy shit I forgot it was that bad

[ELITEpower23]

Holy shit I forgot it was that bad

All we do is win :pimp:

[3ba11]

+1

Game 7 2013 Finals
PTS
LeBron = 37
Bosh = 0
Allen = 0
Miller = 0

Bron's 3rd, 4th, and 5th option = zero points on 14 shots. They were SHOOK in Game 7. LeKing was not.

Goat stuff


Game 7 was only necessary because Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 and needed Allen to force Game 7.

Lebron had a zero plus/minus and negative net rating in the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor, while Wade averaged within 5 points of Lebron, so Lebron didn't defeat maximum defensive attention (Wade garnered nearly as much attention)..

only MJ defeated max defensive attention for his entire career by virtue of averaging 10-30 more than teammates in every series.. so everyone's stats are inflated compared to MJ because parts of their career occurred without facing max defensive attention (by virtue of having equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention)

[ELITEpower23]

Game 7 was only necessary because Lebron averaged 16 on 39% through 3 games, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 and needed Allen to force Game 7.

Lebron had a zero plus/minus and negative net rating in the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor, while Wade averaged within 5 points of Lebron, so Lebron didn't defeat maximum defensive attention

What did MJ do without Pippen again? Remind me, after all he had five years right? 33% of his 15 year career?

[3ba11]

What did MJ do without Pippen again? Remind me, after all he had five years right? 33% of his 15 year career?


You're weaponizing the coincidence that MJ's years without Pippen were his first few years when EVERYONE loses - Durant, Lebron, Curry and Giannis were all lottery in their first few years so you're knocking MJ for losing during a period that EVERYONE loses.

Once MJ had 3 healthy years to develop his team (88'), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron (3rd year Lebron)... The difference is that Lebron had the East all-star center and a high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight), while MJ had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

[ELITEpower23]

You're weaponizing the coincidence that MJ's years without Pippen were his first few years when EVERYONE loses - Durant, Lebron, Curry and Giannis were all lottery in their first few years so you're knocking MJ for losing during a period that EVERYONE loses.

Once MJ had 3 healthy years to develop his team (88'), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron (3rd year Lebron)... The difference is that Lebron had the East all-star center and a high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight), while MJ had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

So what did MJ do without Pippen again? Remind me, after all he had five years right? 33% of his 15 year career?

[Johnny32]

this is how mj got out of the 1st rd in 88. cle vs chi series tied 2-2 game 5. pippen...24, 6, 5 on 50%

this is how lbj got out of the 1st rd in 06. cle vs was game 6. lebron's all star center big z...6, 5, 0 on 50%

lol

[ELITEpower23]

this is how mj got out of the 1st rd in 88. cle vs chi series tied 2-2 game 5. pippen...24, 6, 5 on 50%

this is how lbj got out of the 1st rd in 06. cle vs was game 6. lebron's all star center big z...6, 5, 0 on 50%

lol

WRAP IT UP BOIS

ANOTHER W :pimp:

[3ba11]

this is how mj got out of the 1st rd in 88. cle vs chi series tied 2-2 game 5. pippen...24, 6, 5 on 50%

this is how lbj got out of the 1st rd in 06. cle vs was game 6. lebron's all star center big z...6, 5, 0 on 50%

lol


Game 6 of 2007 ECF

Boobie.... 31 points (carry-job)
Lebron.... 20 points (3-11)


Game 5 of 1988 1st Round

Pippen.... 24/6/5/2/0... (fouled out with 2:30 left)
Jordan.... 39/4/6/2/2

[ELITEpower23]

Game 6 of 2007 ECF

Boobie.... 31 points (carry-job)
Lebron.... 20 points (3-11)


Game 5 of 1988 1st Round

Pippen.... 24/6/5/2/0... (fouled out with 2:30 left)
Jordan.... 39/4/6/2/2

So LBJ's 'all star' Big Z underperformed so he LeElevated Tits Gibson to great heights?

And this is supposed to be...bad?

Sounds like ANOTHER WIN for the bois :pimp:

[Johnny32]

Game 6 of 2007 ECF

Boobie.... 31 points (carry-job)
Lebron.... 20 points (3-11)


Game 5 of 1988 1st Round

Pippen.... 24/6/5/2/0... (fouled out with 2:30 left)
Jordan.... 39/4/6/2/2

i wonder how many of those gibson 3s were off lebron assists. unlike jordan my goat is an unselfish superstar who plays a team gm.

[Johnny32]

this guy's went from 2nd options to 3rd options to 2006 to 2007...what's next.

[ShawkFactory]

i wonder how many of those gibson 3s were off lebron assists. unlike jordan my goat is an unselfish superstar who plays a team gm.

3 of his 5 threes are directly off of Lebron assists. The other two were assisted by Damon Jones with the hockey assist going to Lebron after he was doubled.

Here's the fourth quarter where Gibson really went off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEz-wYG7qmk

The Pistons trapped/doubled Lebron most of the game.

[Johnny32]

3 of his 5 threes are directly off of Lebron assists. The other two were assisted by Damon Jones with the hockey assist going to Lebron after he was doubled.

Here's the fourth quarter where Gibson really went off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEz-wYG7qmk

The Pistons trapped/doubled Lebron most of the game.
can't blame em i guess. he scored what 48 in gm 5.

[3ba11]

can't blame em i guess. he scored what 48 in gm 5.


Lebron had a teammates close out the ECF for him and carry the scoring load like Boobie in Game 6, or Bosh/Wade were equal-scoring partners to Lebron in the 11' or 14' ECF (Bosh destroyed league MVP in 11' ECF)...

Otoh, Jordan never had teammates carry him because he averaged 10-30 more in every SERIES - no one carried teams anywhere near this much.

[ShawkFactory]

can't blame em i guess. he scored what 48 in gm 5.

Yep. He was also incredible defensively in game 6. All over the court