Who else in top 75 peaked at 22/5 with no postseason accolade or dominance?

[3ba11]

Only Pippen's performance was this low and only bums like Pippen, Larry Hughes or Ty Lawson peak this low - not top 75 players.

Heck, JR Smith and Robert Horry averaged 18/9 on 55% in the 15' ECF & 95' Finals - that's "pippen-caliber" (good role player caliber) and anyone can reach it.

Ty Lawson actually peaked higher than Pippen in 2013 - far better passing and leadership with equal scoring.. That's pippen-caliber (good role player caliber)

[AirBonner]

Pippen outscored almost all other 2nd options.

[3ba11]

Pippen outscored almost all other 2nd options.



98' ECF

Smits....... 16.2 on 55%
Pippen..... 16.6 on 39%

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F1lCjwWJ1Ds&t=01h58m45s


Similar to lower tier sidekicks like Klay, Pau or Rip Hamilton, Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 25% of series during title runs, but his worst-ever efficiency meant that he was outplayed in the majority of series (see the 98' ECF above as an example).

Otoh, top tier sidekicks like Kobe, Curry, Wade or Kareem routinely outscore the opposing 1st option and can dominate or outplay league MVP's.. These guys are 1b's and therefore a completely different caliber from the Klay/Pippen tier (true 2nd options).

Furthermore, outside of 94' when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series, including 7 of 7 series without MJ from 99-03' - so he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ.

[ShawkFactory]

Ty Lawson? Really?

Of all the people you can say to make you look slightly more reasonable..

[000]

He was also equaled by 2006 Mike James.

Pippen was never all-star calibre.


Edit:

1994 Pippen per 100 poss:

30 ppg & 7.5 apg on 103 TS+ as 1st option

2006 Mike James per 100 poss:

29 ppg & 8 apg on 109 TS+ as 2nd option

[3ba11]

Ty Lawson? Really?

Of all the people you can say to make you look slightly more reasonable..


The point is to show that anyone reached Pippen-caliber - that's how low the bar is

Ty Lawson won 57 games in 2013 with 20 and 9 apg

That equals Pippen's peak in 94' and actually exceeds it with far superior passing, leadership and equal scoring (a spotty scorer just like Pippen)

[SouBeachTalents]

The point is to show that anyone reached Pippen-caliber - that's how low the bar is

Ty Lawson won 57 games in 2013 with 20 and 9 apg

That equals Pippen's peak in 94' and actually exceeds it with far superior passing, leadership and equal scoring (a spotty scorer just like Pippen)
Lawson averaged 17 & 7 in 2013, why are you such a fcking liar :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

The point is to show that anyone reached Pippen-caliber - that's how low the bar is

Ty Lawson won 57 games in 2013 with 20 and 9 apg

That equals Pippen's peak in 94' and actually exceeds it with far superior passing, leadership and equal scoring (a spotty scorer just like Pippen)

Not even close.

But either way, someone “peaking” for one year at someone else’s 7-8 year average doesn’t put them on the same level.

[000]

Not even close.

But either way, someone “peaking” for one year at someone else’s 7-8 year average doesn’t put them on the same level.
Actually, yes, that's exactly what it does, and why Mike James is much better than Pippen.

[AirBonner]

Outscored literally every other 2nd options and outplayed Ewing. Op is comical

[pandiani17]

:oldlol: Six rings as the second option is not postseason dominance? Then Kevin McHale and Kevin Garnett, for example, should also be taken off the list.

[3ba11]

Outscored literally every other 2nd options and outplayed Ewing. Op is comical


outside of 94' when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series, including 7 of 7 series without MJ from 99-03' - so he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ

and his worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) means he was outplayed in the vast majority of series that he played

[1987_Lakers]

Lawson averaged 17 & 7 in 2013, why are you such a fcking liar :oldlol:

He does this from time to time, lies about random stats he thinks nobody will notice. I've already caught him doing it a bunch of times.

[3ba11]

Outscored literally every other 2nd options and outplayed Ewing. Op is comical


Outside of his 1st option year in 1994, Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series, including 7 of 7 series without MJ (wasn't a 2nd option without MJ).

Perhaps more importantly, Pippen's low peak scoring capability (16-22 ppg) meant that he was BARELY outscoring guys when he outscored them (basically tying them), and was still outscored half the time with worst-ever efficiency (essentially getting destroyed in most series, hence MJ needing goat carry-job stats to win).

[SouBeachTalents]

He does this from time to time, lies about random stats he thinks nobody will notice. I've already caught him doing it a bunch of times.
He also does complete 180’s on several players like Giannis & Curry. He a bitch

[3ba11]

Lawson averaged 17 & 7 in 2013, why are you such a fcking liar :oldlol:


I was referring to his playoff stats and they were 21/8 not 20/9.. I don't lie on stats and the small discrepancies are due to mis-remembering

But even the regular season stats you posted make my point - aka far more assists and leadership, with equal scoring (or not that far off.... because again, pippen's peak is a LOW BAR... so even 17 ppg isn't that far off or dominated by it)

[3ba11]

He also does complete 180’s on several players like Giannis & Curry. He a bitch


Those were Lawson's playoff stats that I was referring to.

Ultimately, outside of his 1st option year in 1994, Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series, including 7 of 7 series without MJ (wasn't a 2nd option without MJ).

Perhaps more importantly, Pippen's low peak scoring capability (16-22 ppg) meant that he was BARELY outscoring guys when he outscored them (basically tying them), and was still outscored half the time with worst-ever efficiency (essentially getting destroyed in most series, hence MJ needing goat carry-job stats to win).

[ShawkFactory]

I was referring to his playoff stats and they were 21/8 not 20/9.. I don't lie on stats and the small discrepancies are due to mis-remembering

But even the regular season stats you posted make my point - aka far more assists and leadership, with equal scoring (or not that far off.... because again, pippen's peak is a LOW BAR... so even 17 ppg isn't that far off or dominated by it)

Lol that massive 6 game sample?

And I’m also still trying to figure out whether or not option hierarchy matters to you when discussing numbers.

[1987_Lakers]

I was referring to his playoff stats and they were 21/8 not 20/9.. I don't lie on stats and the small discrepancies are due to mis-remembering






Ty Lawson won 57 games in 2013 with 20 and 9 apg

You were obviously implying he averaged those numbers in the regular season.

[3ba11]

Lol that massive 6 game sample?

And I’m also still trying to figure out whether or not option hierarchy matters to you when discussing numbers.


The 2013 Nuggets are a good example that make my point - a team of "pippen-producing" guys - Iggy was at 18/8/5 in the playoffs and Lawson was at 21/3/8, while the regular season saw a 3rd guy at 16/5/2 with 37% threes (gallinari) - all these guys are pippen-caliber offensively and I'm really only talking about pippen's career alongside MJ or in a 3-peat triangle - Pippen from the Houston/Portland days was more like 2007 Hughes, so basically everyone was a better scorer than Pippen outside of MJ's womb.

[AirBonner]

The league was weaker in MJ’s era if all the guys today are Pippen level

[ShawkFactory]

The 2013 Nuggets are a good example that make my point - a team of "pippen-producing" guys - Iggy was at 18/8/5 in the playoffs and Lawson was at 21/3/8, while the regular season saw a 3rd guy at 16/5/2 with 37% threes (gallinari) - all these guys are pippen-caliber offensively and I'm really only talking about pippen's career alongside MJ or in a 3-peat triangle - Pippen from the Houston/Portland days was more like 2007 Hughes, so basically everyone was a better scorer than Pippen outside of MJ's womb.

I’m trying to figure out if option hierarchy matters when discussing numbers for you. Please clear that up, thanks.

[3ba11]

You were obviously implying he averaged those numbers in the regular season.


we aren't talking about a guy like Wade or Giannis that peaked at 35 ppg in the Finals - we're talking about Pippen here, and his caliber fits with any mediocre scoring amount like Lawson's 21/8 in the playoffs or 17/7 in the regular season - it's all pippen-caliber.. that was his level - that's the whole point about Pippen.. so even Ty Lawson can be effectively compared to Pippen as a superior passer, leader and equal scorer.

[3ba11]

I’m trying to figure out if option hierarchy matters when discussing numbers for you. Please clear that up, thanks.


If a guy is 6th option behind Arvydas, Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace and Bonzi Wells, than doesn't that confirm the point that Pippen was a trash scorer that nearly everyone could match and therefore completely carried (as the stats also confirm)?... He was also 3rd or 4th option behind fossils Hakeem/Barkley a massive disappointment by all accounts (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-20-2021/7_4XkA.gif)

[ShawkFactory]

If a guy is 6th option behind Arvydas, Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace and Bonzi Wells, than doesn't that confirm the point that Pippen was a trash scorer that nearly everyone could match and therefore completely carried (as the stats also confirm)?... He was also 3rd or 4th option behind fossils Hakeem/Barkley a massive disappointment by all accounts (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-20-2021/7_4XkA.gif)

So...yes, option hierarchy matters when discussing numbers?

[3ba11]

So...yes, option hierarchy matters when discussing numbers?


The ability to be a 2nd option matters, and Pippen wasn't one without MJ - he was 3rd through 7th option without the goat scorer to suck up all the defensive attention and carry his weak scoring.. that's the historical record.

Again, only MJ won more than 2 Finals without a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals... Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg (15.7 on 34% trough)

[AirBonner]

The ability to be a 2nd option matters, and Pippen wasn't one without MJ - he was 3rd through 7th option without the goat scorer to suck up all the defensive attention and carry his weak scoring.. that's the historical record.

Again, only MJ won more than 2 Finals without a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals... Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg (15.7 on 34% trough)

Outscored all other 2nd options of his era but he’s not a true 2nd option?

[ShawkFactory]

The ability to be a 2nd option matters, and Pippen wasn't one without MJ - he was 3rd through 7th option without the goat scorer to suck up all the defensive attention and carry his weak scoring.. that's the historical record.

Again, only MJ won more than 2 Finals without a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals... Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg (15.7 on 34% trough)

He was also a first option without MJ.

But it seems we’re on the same page regarding this: the lower you are on the totem pole the lower your numbers will be. Let’s try to apply that basic logic to all cases now.

[ELITEpower23]

MJ took 35 shots a game and MJ stains wonder why Pippen didn't score more? :oldlol:

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Dave Cowens never even averaged 22PPG.

No idea how Kareem lost to that car salesman, what a bum

Jerry Lucas and Willis Reed as well.

These guys got 10+ rebounds though

[Bronbron23]

Only Pippen's performance was this low and only bums like Pippen, Larry Hughes or Ty Lawson peak this low - not top 75 players.

Heck, JR Smith and Robert Horry averaged 18/9 on 55% in the 15' ECF & 95' Finals - that's "pippen-caliber" (good role player caliber) and anyone can reach it.

Ty Lawson actually peaked higher than Pippen in 2013 - far better passing and leadership with equal scoring.. That's pippen-caliber (good role player caliber)

Not sure but how many players have as many first team defense as pip? I believe There's less then 10 in the history of the game.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Not sure but how many players have as many first team defense as pip? I believe There's less then 10 in the history of the game.

Kobe has a jaw dropping 9x all defense 1st team selection, even though he only deserved like 2 of them (2000 and 2003).

[ELITEpower23]

Kobe has a jaw dropping 9x all defense 1st team selection, even though he only deserved like 2 of them (2000 and 2003).

If you weren't a retard wouldn't your name just be "Kawhi Not"

[SouBeachTalents]

If you weren't a retard wouldn't your name just be "Kawhi Not"
:oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Kobe has a jaw dropping 9x all defense 1st team selection, even though he only deserved like 2 of them (2000 and 2003).

Yeah its crazy he has that many. Didn't know that until recently

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

If you weren't a retard wouldn't your name just be "Kawhi Not"


https://youtu.be/UFz9A3E-ttI

I'm blasting it when kawhi returns.

"When its time to rock a finals mvp over LeBron in 2014 I'm on point"

"When its time to rock a finals mvp over curry in 2019 I'M THE MAN"

[Axe]

https://youtu.be/UFz9A3E-ttI

I'm blasting it when kawhi returns.

"When its time to rock a finals mvp over LeBron in 2014 I'm on point"

"When its time to rock a finals mvp over curry in 2019 I'M THE MAN"
Seek help

[3ba11]

Kobe has a jaw dropping 9x all defense 1st team selection, even though he only deserved like 2 of them (2000 and 2003).


^^^ this is similar to Pippen, who received a bunch of all-nba awards due to his association with MJ and the winning spotlight, while his actual performance wasn't worthy, especially in the playoffs