The truths and myths to Scottie Pippen [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

RogueBorg

12-07-2021, 10:52 AM

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/436214-the-truths-and-myths-to-scottie-pippen

The Truths and Myths to Scottie Pippen

Truth: Scottie Pippen was the best wing defender of his era

Truth: Pippen was a product of Jordan, Phil Jackson, and Chicago

Myth: Pippen deserved to be on the 1992 dream team
By the time the Dream Team was announced, Scottie Pippen had played in one all star caliber season, which was the 91-92 season in which he averaged 21-7-7. Pippen was growing as a player and entering his prime.

On the other hand, Isiah Thomas was just coming off leading the Detroit Pistons to back-to-back titles, Thomas was considered the best point guard in the NBA, and was adding to his Hall of Fame resume.

Isiah Thomas deserved to be on the team, and no explanation other than conspiracy, and retaliation for Isiah Thomas being part of the “Freezing out” Jordan in the 1985 All-Star game.

Supposedly, Jordan said he wouldn’t play if Zeke was named to the Dream Team, and Pippen labeled Isiah a cheap shot artist. Bottom line: Isiah deserved it more than Pippen.

Dominique Williams deserved it more than Pippen too; at the time Wilkins was a more established player, and a much better scorer than Pippen would ever be.

Pippen did not belong on the 1992 Dream Team; there were a few others who deserved it more.

Myth: Pippen was a clutch player

Pippen was a top 50 player of all time

Myth: Pippen was one of the greatest players of his era

The Bottom line
Scottie Pippen was a great player, he had a great career, but the bottom line is Scottie Pippen wouldn’t be celebrated the way he is today had he not played with Michael Jordan.

Pippen came to the league in a perfect situation, had he been asked to carry a team on his back his whole career, Pippen would be ring-less.

We saw it when Jordan left basketball, Pippen was asked to carry the team, and he knew he couldn’t do it.

I’m not saying Pippen isn’t a Hall of Famer, but he wasn’t a top 50 player, he wasn’t one of the greatest of his era, he wasn’t a clutch player, he was a product of the great Michael Jordan.

Pippen was the ultimate sidekick to the greatest of all time, in what was the greatest one-two punch of all time, and there’s no shame in that.

expansionera

12-07-2021, 10:55 AM

Scottie Pippen was a great player, he had a great career, but the bottom line is Scottie Pippen wouldn’t be celebrated the way he is today had he not played with Michael Jordan.
Funny given Jordan never won a playoff game without Scottie, Scottie won 50 games and advanced in the playoffs without Fraudan. Were BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant a product of Scottie?

Johnny32

12-07-2021, 10:58 AM

the product of jordan led the bulls to two less wins the season after jordan quit because he was too mentally and physically exhausted to complete. he was 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, 3rd in mvp voting, and allowed horace grant to flourish and become an all star. only the worst call in nba playoff history stopped his team from probably going back to the finals. my guess is the lg wanted ny in the finals and protect precious jordan's legacy in the process.

SouBeachTalents

12-07-2021, 11:06 AM

How do you guys seriously not get tired of talking about Scottie Pippen all the time. He’s legit the most tired discussion on the forum lately.

theman93

12-07-2021, 01:25 PM

Funny given Jordan never won a playoff game without Scottie, Scottie won 50 games and advanced in the playoffs without Fraudan. Were BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant a product of Scottie?

He won those games and advanced in the playoffs with a developed championship roster and seasoned HC. The Bulls 1985-87 weren't that, so making that comparison is laughable.

And no they were a product of being forced to try and fill MJ's void - hence the higher USG% and increased FGA's.

Btw, great thread OP :applause:

WhiteKyrie

12-07-2021, 01:25 PM

I think Scottie is the best team defender and rotation guy I have ever seen. But he wasn’t the man defender Mike, GP, Kobe, Leonard were.

3ba11

12-07-2021, 05:02 PM

.
DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)

Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s

Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:

ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s

^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

AirBonner

12-07-2021, 05:10 PM

Outscoring every 2nd option at the time while playing dpoy level defense is about as good as you can get for a true 2nd option. That’s the fact pal

3ba11

12-07-2021, 05:32 PM

Outscoring every 2nd option

Everyone ragdolled and outscored Pippen:

1990 ECF - Dumars

1992 ECSF - X-man

1993 1st Round - Kevin Willis (while Dominique literally doubled Pippen's scoring)

1994 ECSF - Ewing

1995 1st Round - Larry Johnson

1996 ECF - Penny

1996 Finals - Schrempf & Payton

1997 1st Round - Juwan Howard

1998 ECF - Smits

AirBonner

12-07-2021, 05:33 PM

Everyone ragdolled and outscored Pippen:

1990 ECF - Dumars

1992 ECSF - X-man

1993 1st Round - Kevin Willis (while Dominique literally doubled Pippen's scoring)

1994 ECSF - Ewing

1995 1st Round - Larry Johnson

1996 ECF - Penny

1996 Finals - Schrempf & Payton

1997 1st Round - Juwan Howard

1998 ECF - Smits

Those are first options. You expecting Pippen to outscore the first options now too? How selfish

3ba11

12-07-2021, 05:39 PM

Those are first options. You expecting Pippen to outscore the first options now too? How selfish

They're all 2nd leading scorers for the opponent in a given series

Ultimately, Pippen peaked at 16-22 ppg, so he even when he outscored guys he was basically tying them with worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).

Furthermore, Pippen wasn't a 2nd option without MJ because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 7 of 7 series without MJ

tontoz

12-07-2021, 06:05 PM

On the other hand, Isiah Thomas was just coming off leading the Detroit Pistons to back-to-back titles, Thomas was considered the best point guard in the NBA, and was adding to his Hall of Fame resume.

:roll:

Isiah hadnt made an All-NBA team for 5 years, not even 3rd team. He wasn't close to the best pg in the league.

I would argue he wasn't the best guard on their team during their title years.

As far as the Dream Team goes the competition wasn't with Pippen (setting aside MJs objection) it was with Stockton (who actually was an All-NBA player) or even Laettner.

Laettner was really the guy who didn't belong. The decision to put a college player on a team with all those stars was ridiculous.

TheGoatest

12-07-2021, 11:25 PM

Wow, that propaganda article written by a pro-Jordan propagandist really made me forget the fact that Pippen did better than Jordan on both of the two occasions he played without him than Jordan did in either of the two occasions he played without Pippen.

Axe

12-07-2021, 11:51 PM

Truth: scottie pippen was acquired by the bulls in order to extinguish a 1-9 skidmark that was posted in 1985-87 by their lonely first option bt

getting_old

12-08-2021, 12:22 PM

Got to spend quality time in his college town of Conway, Arkansas.

Paid a visit to the school.

Geez but he came a long way.

3ba11

12-08-2021, 12:27 PM

Pippen did better than Jordan on both of the two occasions he played without him

Pippen wasn't even a 2nd option without Jordan - he was 3rd thru 7th option on Houston and Portland

And he couldn't grow a team each year like 1st options are supposed to do - he was borderline lottery in 95', so he had destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 2 years

3ba11

12-08-2021, 12:31 PM

* Pippen was a low-producer that never achieved elite production

* Never dominated any series

* Never hit a big shot

* Less DPOY votes than MJ every year

* Less assists than MJ for Finals career, playoff career and regular season career

* Half the playoff PPG as MJ and carried in every series (never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series)

97 bulls

12-08-2021, 12:52 PM

Pippen wasn't even a 2nd option without Jordan - he was 3rd thru 7th option on Houston and Portland

And he couldn't grow a team each year like 1st options are supposed to do - he was borderline lottery in 95', so he had destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 2 years

Pippen was 33, 34, and 35 years old in Houston and Portalnd. Stop trolling. Thus is why we get the constant 1-9 arguments against Jordan.

Question. Since age and injury be dated, why didn't Michael Jordan win a championship with a hall of famer in Iceman George Gervin (he was 33) Charles Oakley, and Orlando Woolridge? Woolridge was a great scorer as well. Why didn't Jordan win?

Airupthere

12-08-2021, 01:05 PM

97 bulls

12-08-2021, 01:32 PM

Hard to win with gervin when jordan was mostly sidelined from injury in the only season they would have played together.

Gervin was past his prime. No reasonable person expected that Bulls team to win a championship in 86. But 3ball throws context out the window with regards to Pippen. So I want to see some consistency. If he expected 33, 34, and 35 year old Pippen to win a championship, age, injuries, context be dated, surely he should've expected Jordan to do the same.

Now, why don't you check 3ball on his nonsensical arguments? Probably because you're a Jordanite as well.

3ba11

12-08-2021, 01:36 PM

Gervin was past his prime. No reasonable person expected that Bulls team to win a championship in 86. But 3ball throws context out the window with regards to Pippen. So I want to see some consistency. If he expected 33, 34, and 35 year old Pippen to win a championship, age, injuries, context be dated, surely he should've expected Jordan to do the same.

Now, why don't you check 3ball on his nonsensical arguments? Probably because you're a Jordanite as well.

Gervin didn't play in those playoffs

And MJ was MVP at 35, so 33 years old is young.. Pippen was younger than fossils Hakeem and Barkley but was still instantly demoted to 3rd option... 14 ppg and complete trash at 33 years old

TheGoatest

12-08-2021, 01:41 PM

Pippen wasn't even a 2nd option without Jordan - he was 3rd thru 7th option on Houston and Portland

And he couldn't grow a team each year like 1st options are supposed to do - he was borderline lottery in 95', so he had destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 2 years

Had the best statline on that Blazers team while being the only Blazers player to be named to an all-NBA/all-defensive team.

1999-00 Pippen was the anti-1986-87 sub-Chuck Person record Michael Jordan.

3ba11

12-08-2021, 01:47 PM

Had the best statline on that Blazers team while being the only Blazers player to be named to an all-NBA/all-defensive team.

1999-00 Pippen was the anti-1986-87 sub-Chuck Person record Michael Jordan.

Let's work backwards:

* 11 ppg in the 99-03' Playoffs

* 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs

* outplayed by Larry Johnson in the 1995' 1st Round, and then 19 on 40% in 2nd Round to cause loss

* Destroyed by Ewing in 2nd Round with numerous historic chokes

* Worst impact stats ever for winning sidekick in 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), including 45% true shooting in Finals and letting rookie Dumas go off

* Nearly derailed the 92' title by getting destroyed by X-man in the 2nd Round and causing a 7 game series (16 on 40%)

* Horrible in 88-90' Playoffs (12 on 42% vs Bad Boys)

So Pippen was literally horrible for 95% of his playoff career

TheGoatest

12-08-2021, 01:56 PM

Let's work backwards:

* 11 ppg in the 99-03' Playoffs

* 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs

* outplayed by Larry Johnson in the 1995' 1st Round, and then 19 on 40% in 2nd Round to cause loss

* Destroyed by Ewing in 2nd Round with numerous historic chokes

* Worst impact stats ever for winning sidekick in 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), including 45% true shooting in Finals and letting rookie Dumas go off

* Nearly derailed title by getting destroyed by X-man in the 2nd Round and causing a 7 game series (16 on 40%)

* Horrible in 88-90' Playoffs (12 on 42% vs Bad Boys)

So Pippen was literally horrible for 95% of his playoff career

* Had a 23 ppg on 55% shooting teammate yet lost to a team who went on to get swept in the 2nd round by a team that lost in the conference finals to a team that lost in the finals

* Outscored by Terry Cummings despite having his whole game based on scoring

* Had a 15 ppg, 13 rpg and 4 apg teammate yet finished lower in the seedings than an all-star-less team whose best player by far and leading scorer was a significant margin was a rookie Chuck Person

* 1-9 record in the playoffs

* Probably the emptiest stat season of all time

* Never cracked .500

Then this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/wBLQqPp4/Along-Came-Scottie.jpg

3ba11

12-08-2021, 02:05 PM

* Had a 23 ppg on 55% shooting teammate yet lost to a team who went on to get swept in the 2nd round by a team that lost in the conference finals to a team that lost in the finals

* Outscored by Terry Cummings despite having his whole game based on scoring

* Had a 15 ppg, 13 rpg and 4 apg teammate yet finished lower in the seedings than an all-star-less team whose best player by far and leading scorer was a significant margin was a rookie Chuck Person

* 1-9 record in the playoffs

* Probably the emptiest stat season of all time

* Never cracked .500

Then this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/wBLQqPp4/Along-Came-Scottie.jpg

Help needed to make Playoffs:

Lebron

* several lottery years to develop into high seed
* high seed
* the East all-star center
* his opponent's sidekick (a 22/5/5 all-defender)
* the future COY
* top defenses

Jordan

* nothing

Lebron had 3 years to develop his team into high seeds before entering the 06' playoffs in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win

RogueBorg

12-08-2021, 02:32 PM

Pippen was 33, 34, and 35 years old in Houston and Portalnd. Stop trolling. Thus is why we get the constant 1-9 arguments against Jordan.

Question. Since age and injury be dated, why didn't Michael Jordan win a championship with a hall of famer in Iceman George Gervin (he was 33) Charles Oakley, and Orlando Woolridge? Woolridge was a great scorer as well. Why didn't Jordan win?

Orlando Woolridge and George Gervin didn't play defense, couldn't rebound, and didn't pass the ball. Gervin didn't win anything in his prime, how's he helping anyone win in his last season? He's not. Orlando Woolridge never made an All-Star team, with or without Jordan. There's a reason why they shipped his @$$ out of Chicago, and there's a reason he never played more than two seasons with anyone upon leaving Chicago...he sucked.

3ba11

12-08-2021, 02:36 PM

Orlando Woolridge and George Gervin didn't play defense, couldn't rebound, and didn't pass the ball. Gervin didn't win anything in his prime, how's he helping anyone win in his last season? He's not. Orlando Woolridge never made an All-Star team, with or without Jordan. There's a reason why they shipped his @$$ out of Chicago, and there's a reason he never played more than two seasons with anyone upon leaving Chicago...he sucked.

Exactly... Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had no all-stars and low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

Lebron also added his opponent's sidekick (a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition) and the future COY before entering the 06' Playoffs.. Otoh, Jordan made 85' Playoffs or the 89' ECF with nothing - a completely accolade-less cast of rookies

RogueBorg

12-08-2021, 02:55 PM

Exactly... Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had no all-stars and low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win it.

Lebron also added his opponent's sidekick (a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition) and the future COY before entering the 06' Playoffs.. Otoh, Jordan made 85' Playoffs or the 89' ECF with nothing - a completely accolade-less cast of rookies

These box score readers look at Woolridge's stat line, see 22 ppg and think "Great player." I saw him play, Orlando Woolridge sucked and it's proven by how long he lasted with each subsequent team. Every team got rid of him fast.

97 bulls

12-08-2021, 03:51 PM

Orlando Woolridge and George Gervin didn't play defense, couldn't rebound, and didn't pass the ball. Gervin didn't win anything in his prime, how's he helping anyone win in his last season? He's not. Orlando Woolridge never made an All-Star team, with or without Jordan. There's a reason why they shipped his @$$ out of Chicago, and there's a reason he never played more than two seasons with anyone upon leaving Chicago...he sucked.

Are you even reading the exchange? Let's be consistent. If you have these expectations of Scottie Pippen at 33, then surely having a 33 year old Gervin and Woodridge should be sufficient right? I mean to at least get 1 game off the Celtics. If Pippen doesn't get the age exception then nobody should. Why didn't the Rockets get to the Finals with Clyde Drexler and a Barkley and Olajuwan that were 2 years younger than they were when Pippen arrived? Drexler is leaps and bounds ahead of Pippen right?

Maybe 3balls assessment is flawed.

97 bulls

12-08-2021, 03:55 PM

These box score readers look at Woolridge's stat line, see 22 ppg and think "Great player." I saw him play, Orlando Woolridge sucked and it's proven by how long he lasted with each subsequent team. Every team got rid of him fast.

Theres no bigger box score reader than 3ball. And you're siding with him. He totally omits defense, rebounds, passing, intangibles. Woolridge hit 25ppg as a scorer one year. That what 3ball says Jordan needed. Why couldn't he get even 1 win vs the Celtics in 86? With Woolridge, a Hall of Famer in Gervin, and Charles Oakley.

3ba11

12-08-2021, 04:19 PM

Theres no bigger box score reader than 3ball. And you're siding with him. He totally omits defense, rebounds, passing, intangibles. Woolridge hit 25ppg as a scorer one year. That what 3ball says Jordan needed. Why couldn't he get even 1 win vs the Celtics in 86? With Woolridge, a Hall of Famer in Gervin, and Charles Oakley.

Firstly, Gervin didn't play in the 86' playoffs

Secondly, Woolridge was never anywhere near a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star).

Otoh, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and high seeds, while Jordan had no all-stars and low seeds

Lebron also added his opponent's sidekick (a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition) and the future COY before entering the 06' Playoffs.. Otoh, Jordan made 85' Playoffs or the 89' ECF with nothing - a completely accolade-less cast of rookies

1987_Lakers

12-08-2021, 04:36 PM

Firstly, Gervin didn't play in the 86' playoffs

Another lie, he did. MJ couldn't get a single win vs the Celtics despite having HOF Gervin, a 20 ppg scorer Woolridge & All-star Oakley.

LOL

tontoz

12-08-2021, 05:38 PM

Another lie, he did. MJ couldn't get a single win vs the Celtics despite having HOF Gervin, a 20 ppg scorer Woolridge & All-star Oakley.

LOL

Gervin played 11 minutes vs the Celtics.

3ball is nuts but MJ was epic vs the Cs that year. He scored 63 in one game against the eventual champs, a playoff scoring record that still stands.

Bird said that '86 team is the best team he ever played on.

97 bulls

12-08-2021, 05:49 PM

Gervin played 11 minutes vs the Celtics.

3ball is nuts but MJ was epic vs the Cs that year. He scored 63 in one game against the eventual champs, a playoff scoring record that still stands.

Bird said that '86 team is the best team he ever played on.

Don't let something so trivial as context get in the way. 3ball doesn't.

1987_Lakers

12-08-2021, 05:57 PM

sdot_thadon

12-08-2021, 06:56 PM

I think op should have just named this : my biased opinion on Scottie Pippen and been done with it. Transparency would be more fun guys lol.

sdot_thadon

12-08-2021, 07:05 PM

* Pippen:

* Never hit a big shot

Hey bud

https://youtu.be/3_yMkri18QA

TheGoatest

12-08-2021, 10:39 PM

Help needed to make Playoffs:

Lebron

* several lottery years to develop into high seed
* high seed
* the East all-star center
* his opponent's sidekick (a 22/5/5 all-defender)
* the future COY
* top defenses

Jordan

* nothing

Lebron had 3 years to develop his team into high seeds before entering the 06' playoffs in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win

Enough to make the playoffs between 1985 and 1987:

40-42 record
38-44 record
30-52 record

Not enough to make the playoffs in 2005:

42-40 record

Rookie Jordan had a #2 guy who was undisputedly better than any #2 guy LeBron had between 2003 and 2010, and rookie Jordan had a #3 guy who was undisputedly better than any #3 guy LeBron had between 2003 and 2010, yet lost in the first round to a team that went on to get swept in the second round by a team that lost in the conference finals to a team that lost in the finals.

3ba11

12-08-2021, 10:43 PM

Enough to make the playoffs between 1985 and 1987:

40-42 record
38-44 record
30-52 record

Not enough to make the playoffs in 2005:

42-40 record

Rookie Jordan had a #2 guy who was undisputedly better than any #2 guy LeBron had between 2003 and 2010, and rookie Jordan had a #3 guy who was undisputedly better than any #3 guy LeBron had between 2003 and 2010, yet lost in the first round to a team that went on to get swept in the second round by a team that lost in the conference finals to a team that lost in the finals.

Lebron barely won 40 games with the East all-star center in 2005 - that's worse than anything Jordan did.

Jordan didn't have any all-stars until 1990, while Lebron had all-stars in 2005, 2009, and many decorated veterans like Jamison, Hughes and Shaq..

So Lebron had better casts in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

TheGoatest

12-08-2021, 10:50 PM

Lebron barely won 40 games with the East all-star center in 2005 - that's worse than anything Jordan did.

Jordan didn't have any all-stars until 1990, while Lebron had all-stars in 2005, 2009, and many decorated veterans like Jamison, Hughes and Shaq..

So Lebron had better casts in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while Jordan had low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win.

LeBron didn't have any hall-of-famers whatsoever in his first several seasons, Jordan had the luxury of playing with hall-of-famer and 4 x leading scorer George Gervin in his second season. The result? Swept in the first round.