Will we ever see anyone achieve what mj did?

[Baller789]

Lol ok, tell me. When has a shooting guard been criticized for averaging 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg?

And yes, I would absolutely rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game. 4.7 more points, 2.6 less rebounds, and 1.5 less assists is the same discrepancy at any total LOL. You're 75.4/9.0/7.2 vs 80/6.4/5.7 example is the same difference as what their averages show now. That was a dumbass example and didn't prove anything lol. It's only a wrong opinion to you because of your Lebron love affair.

You are not the arbiter of what an objective fan would choose between their averages. You don't know what someone would or wouldn't choose. This is a meaningless, irrelevant, and moot point. You wasted your time.

At the end of the day though what does all this debating mean? What is the point? What is the end goal for the GOAT?

Winning and being recognized as the best player en route to championships.

6/6/6 > 4/10/4

6/13>4/15

Damn son.

You better get a good lawyer for the 3rd degree murder of theGoatest.

https://i.ibb.co/sWp1xWz/applause-the-rock.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

[theman93]

Damn son.

You better get a good lawyer for the 3rd degree murder of theGoatest.

https://i.ibb.co/sWp1xWz/applause-the-rock.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

Homeboy is absolutely stunned that Luol Deng has double the playoff ppg average as Robert Horry and..............Derek Fisher hahaha. As if they were some amazing playoff scorers and Deng was some scrub :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Bawkish]

Homeboy is absolutely stunned that Luol Deng has double the playoff ppg average as Robert Horry and..............Derek Fisher hahaha. As if they were some amazing playoff scorers and Deng was some scrub :roll: :roll: :roll:

that dude is practically living in Bron's Space Jam universe

[Baller789]

Homeboy is absolutely stunned that Luol Deng has double the playoff ppg average as Robert Horry and..............Derek Fisher hahaha. As if they were some amazing playoff scorers and Deng was some scrub :roll: :roll: :roll:


that dude is practically living in Bron's Space Jam universe

He's probably currently watching Space Jam 2 right now.

We do know he is gonna comeback and spout the same BS all over again. :lol

[John8204]

I lot of people bring up Lebron in these discussions but I would point out George Mikan did what MJ did and did it better.

10 Seasons of profession basketball
8 finals appearances
7 titles
2nd most efficient shooter in the game during his era.

Now if one were to rip on Michael one would point out that MJ got swept by Bird every time they played in the post season...

You could also point out that he's 1-3 in series against Isiah

You could also point out that all of his accomplishments happened during the doping era and that with basketball we don't know who cheated and who didn't cheat. And that he retired when the all-time greats were coming along (AI, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan)

[Baller789]

I lot of people bring up Lebron in these discussions but I would point out George Mikan did what MJ did and did it better.

10 Seasons of profession basketball
8 finals appearances
7 titles
2nd most efficient shooter in the game during his era.

Now if one were to rip on Michael one would point out that MJ got swept by Bird every time they played in the post season...

You could also point out that he's 1-3 in series against Isiah

You could also point out that all of his accomplishments happened during the doping era and that with basketball we don't know who cheated and who didn't cheat. And that he retired when the all-time greats were coming along (AI, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan)

Hmmm I wonder who's alt is this?
Anyone guess?

[ClipperRevival]

I lot of people bring up Lebron in these discussions but I would point out George Mikan did what MJ did and did it better.

10 Seasons of profession basketball
8 finals appearances
7 titles
2nd most efficient shooter in the game during his era.

Now if one were to rip on Michael one would point out that MJ got swept by Bird every time they played in the post season...

You could also point out that he's 1-3 in series against Isiah

You could also point out that all of his accomplishments happened during the doping era and that with basketball we don't know who cheated and who didn't cheat. And that he retired when the all-time greats were coming along (AI, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan)

Wheels with another alt.

:roll:

[John8204]

Yes must be an alt account(it's not an alt account)

[GimmeThat]

Harvard University comprises of about 20% of international students, in which the Chinese make up another 20% of it, or roughly 5% of the total student body.

yet China is whooping U.S.'s ass, particularly in recent growth rates.



sorry, my arrogance made me skipped through today's memo, today, it's about selling shoes.

[Baller789]

Yes must be an alt account(it's not an alt account)

Is this one of those accounts to bump up the post counts?

[John8204]

Is this one of those accounts to bump up the post counts?

Why can't I be a new poster?

[SATAN]

Why can't I be a new poster?

Hey, John. Welcome to the forum.

I'm just letting you know that when you make a good post such as your Mikan>MJ one it will often result in the resident MJ stans shifting goals posts, throwing around accusations or throwing tantrums. Sometimes even outright lying. They spent their whole childhood worshipping Michael and are now absolutely furious due to the emergence of LeBron James. Now you throwing Mikan in the mix also caught them off guard. Expect to be belittled for making a good point but ultimately us normal posters know that your point is valid.

Also, in case you didn't know...There is an ignore feature on this forum so you don't have to see these posters worthless bitter comments clogging up every thread.

[Baller789]

Hey, John. Welcome to the forum.

I'm just letting you know that when you make a good post such as your Mikan>MJ one it will often result in the resident MJ stans shifting goals posts, throwing around accusations or throwing tantrums. Sometimes even outright lying. They spent their whole childhood worshipping Michael and are now absolutely furious due to the emergence of LeBron James. Now you throwing Mikan in the mix also caught them off guard. Expect to be belittled for making a good point but ultimately us normal posters know that your point is valid.

Also, in case you didn't know...There is an ignore feature on this forum so you don't have to see these posters worthless bitter comments clogging up every thread.

Pretty rich from a Brantard. :roll:

[SATAN]

My point stands. :lol

[Baller789]

My point stands. :lol
Yes that youre are a Brantard.

:oldlol:

[John8204]

So is this place just Lebron vs MJ 24/7?

[SATAN]

Yes that youre are a Brantard.

:oldlol:

you're*

[SATAN]

So is this place just Lebron vs MJ 24/7?

Rudy Gobert and Derrick Rose are often talked about.

[SATAN]

And one guy talks about Embiid a lot. There was a Harden stan but he is MIA.

[Axe]

So is this place just Lebron vs MJ 24/7?
I suggest taking a look at the political subforum.

[Baller789]

you're*

I wouldnt care typing on a phone :oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

So is this place just Lebron vs MJ 24/7?

No...because its not even a competition

A good portion here see LeManufactured for what he is

[Gohan]

I lot of people bring up Lebron in these discussions but I would point out George Mikan did what MJ did and did it better.

10 Seasons of profession basketball
8 finals appearances
7 titles
2nd most efficient shooter in the game during his era.

Now if one were to rip on Michael one would point out that MJ got swept by Bird every time they played in the post season...

You could also point out that he's 1-3 in series against Isiah

You could also point out that all of his accomplishments happened during the doping era and that with basketball we don't know who cheated and who didn't cheat. And that he retired when the all-time greats were coming along (AI, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan)
:bowdown::applause::cheers:

Thanks for recognizing the truth. Iverson was a true all time great and would of had some great playoff series if he would of faced the goat in the playoffs

[theman93]

I lot of people bring up Lebron in these discussions but I would point out George Mikan did what MJ did and did it better.

10 Seasons of profession basketball
8 finals appearances
7 titles
2nd most efficient shooter in the game during his era.

Now if one were to rip on Michael one would point out that MJ got swept by Bird every time they played in the post season...

You could also point out that he's 1-3 in series against Isiah

You could also point out that all of his accomplishments happened during the doping era and that with basketball we don't know who cheated and who didn't cheat. And that he retired when the all-time greats were coming along (AI, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan)

Hi TheGoatest.

Using your standard and methodology which statement is true?

A) Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Allen Iverson because he totaled more points.

or

B) Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony because the % difference in total points Johnson scored is greater than the % difference in their ppg average.

Lmk tks

[theman93]

Hmmm I wonder who's alt is this?
Anyone guess?

LOL :roll:

[John8204]

Hi TheGoatest.

Using your standard and methodology which statement is true?

A) Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Allen Iverson because he totaled more points.

or

B) Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony because the % difference in total points Johnson scored is greater than the % difference in their ppg average.

Lmk tks

Well they were in different situations, CA and AI were the best players on their team while DJ was the 4th or 5th best on the Celtics and had a GOAT candidate passing him the ball.

[theman93]

Well they were in different situations, CA and AI were the best players on their team while DJ was the 4th or 5th best on the Celtics and had a GOAT candidate passing him the ball.

Thank you.

So your standard and methodology leads you to a place where a fourth option is a better playoff scorer than a first option. Therefor it is illogical and inconsistent and should never be used.

Good talk TheGoatest.

[theman93]

Hey, John. Welcome to the forum.

I'm just letting you know that when you make a good post such as your Mikan>MJ one it will often result in the resident MJ stans shifting goals posts, throwing around accusations or throwing tantrums. Sometimes even outright lying. They spent their whole childhood worshipping Michael and are now absolutely furious due to the emergence of LeBron James. Now you throwing Mikan in the mix also caught them off guard. Expect to be belittled for making a good point but ultimately us normal posters know that your point is valid.

Also, in case you didn't know...There is an ignore feature on this forum so you don't have to see these posters worthless bitter comments clogging up every thread.

Outright lying like John8204 (aka TheGoatest) when he said Mikan played 10 seasons (only played 7), had 8 Finals appearances (how do you make more Finals than seasons played?), and won 7 titles (only won 5)?

[John8204]

Outright lying like John8204 (aka TheGoatest) when he said Mikan played 10 seasons (only played 7), had 8 Finals appearances (how do you make more Finals than seasons played?), and won 7 titles (only won 5)?

Because you are only counting the NBA which didn't start until 1950 and Mikan started playing professional basketball in 47 in the NBL(the first league BTW) which merged with the BAA.

[TheGoatest]

I don't and neither do you, which is why your argument is conjecture. You fail to account for 7+ other players so your conclusion is incomplete and bias.

And sure it's impressive, you just can't admit it because your stanning and emotional. The defense is in position to grab more boards because they are closer to the basket when the shot goes up, so offensive rebounds are significantly harder to come by and require way more effort than defensive rebounds. This is exactly why everyone always averages less offensive rebounds by a wide margin.

The fact that Jordan is 2 inches shorter, 50 pounds lighter, and played further from the basket and still averages more offensive rebounds is what makes it so impressive. Lebron only averages more boards on the defensive end (which is to be expected), but doesn't on the offensive end. Advantage Jordan.

LMAO!! So it is "bias" because I cannot account for 7+ other Jordan teammate players, all the while you at the same time can't account for 7+ other LeBron teammates yourself. Yet it is "not bias" to casually ignore and overlook the 3.4 bricks/potential offensive rebounds we know with 100% certainty took place and were committed by Jordan himself. My argument doesn't consist entirely out of conjecture. Yours does. I have proof to counter your conjecture. You have none to counter mine.

Sorry, that's not how logic works. It doesn't work like that for any situation in life, except if you are a Jordan stan apparently. If you present hypothetical "evidence" I can't disprove, and I can counter with the exact same hypothetical evidence you can't disprove yourself, but on top of my counter I can present actual, 100% certain evidence (3.4 bricks/potential offensive rebounds), and you can't present any actual evidence to counter that, then I win the argument. It's called "innocent until proven guilty". You can't disprove anything that I cannot disprove myself. I can however prove that Jordan had 3.4 extra bricks/potential offensive rebounds. You can't prove anything.

And grabbing 1 offensive rebounds rebound out of every 17 bricks/potential rebounds is not impressive. In fact, statistically is flat out the opposite of impressive.
The fact is that Jordan, a 6'6 player had 3.4 more potential offensive rebounds we know of to grab generated by his own brickage. And the fact that a 6'6 player grabbed 0.2 offensive rebounds, a number 17 times smaller than 3.4 is not impressive.

This season the average for missed field goals per game is 48.3. The average for offensive rebounds is 10.2. A number that is 4.7 times smaller. Let's take a season from Jordan's own era, shall we? In 1991-92 the average for missed field goals was 46.0. The average for offensive rebounds was 14.4. A number that is only 3.19 times higher, even less than LeBron's era! In other words offensive rebounds off missed shots were even more likely to occur in Jordan's era than LeBron's. Which is actually yet another piece of actual, non-conjecture driven evidence (the fact that offensive rebounds were more likely to occur in Jordan's era than in LeBron's) to show that the already low 0.2 number is not that impressive.
Yet taking all this into consideration you expect someone to be impressed by Jordan grabbing an offensive rebounds that is 17 times smaller based on the evidence (Jordan's extra 3.4 bricks/potential rebounds) we are certain of? Now that is emotionally charged.

And even if your desperate bringing up of teammates somehow worked in your/Jordan favor, it sure as hell wouldn't come anywhere near to covering the spread between 3.19 and 17.
You brought up a statistically neglible 0.2 offensive rebounds grabbed in desperation, yet in the end got buried with overwhelming mathematical evidence that that 0.2 number should be considerably higher. What back-firing self-ownage.


He was the primary ball handler because that's the only way he can effectively operate in the game of basketball. He's never been able to play off-ball in a system.

He simply averages more assists because he shoots less as his teams de facto point guard.
The proof is in the pudding: Jordan only averages 1.5 less assists while taking a whopping 4.7 more shots per game. The Bulls just needed Jordan to shoot more often than pass as the teams only primary offensive weapon. If they needed him to pass more often he easily puts up greater assist averages, it's just not what his team needed on a consistent basis.

Oh and btw, what Skip Bayless says is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't hold his opinions so you continually bringing him up is a strawman.


You just owned yourself again. Because 1.5 assists more on 4.7 less shots that LeBron averaged is actually more impressive, due to generating more points in the long run. They either make LeBron look like a higher IQ player than Jordan who played the game of basketball more correctly, or make Jordan look like someone who didn't play the game of basketball correctly and should've passed the ball more.

An assist has a FG% of 100%. We know for a fact that it counted as a basket. That means that LeBron's 1.5 assists generated at the very least 3.0 extra points on a 100% FG%, even if we assume that not a single assist he ever made was a 3 pointer, and LeBron is well known to be one of the best 3-pointer assisters. Meanwhile Jordan's 4.7 shots accounted for 2.3 points in an era we know for a fact teams, and especially Jordan took fewer 3 point attempts.

1.5 field goals on 1.000, that in addition are more likely to be 3pt field goals > 2.3 field goals on .487 fg%, that in addition are far less likely to be 3pt field goals
This is the very core of my argument for why LeBron is the GOAT. I don't think he is the greatest scorer of all time. I don't think that he is the greatest passer of all time. But I do think, or to be more prceise I know that his combination of scoring and passing is definitely the greatest of all time, and no other player ever including Jordan has had these two aspects of his offensive game flow as seamlessly and naturally into each other as LeBron, while at the same time being a great rebounder and defender.

LeBron played more as the primary ball handler because that's in general a more useful and desired skill in basketball. Which by the way was also why he was projected to be as a dead-certain future #1 pick at the age of 15, which led to a longer career/higher playoff point total, etc. But that's another story.

If you have a player who is good at playing as a ballhandler/distributor, and also good at playing off the ball, any coach will choose for that player to be the ball-handler. That is why Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas are more celebrated than Reggie Miller and Klay Thompson, two of the greatest off-the-ball players in history.

I didn't bring up Skip Bayless as my primary evidence. My primary evidence is stat-based. I brought up Skip Bayles as a bonus, because his picture is in the dictonary when you look up the term "LeBron hater", and because he is constantly saying that LeBron isn't even close to Jordan as a player. Yet he still said that LeBron is the greatest passer in the history of the game, a statement I personally wouldn't go quite as far with. Which makes any discussion between LeBron's and Jordan's passing ability even more ridiculous, since such a blatant hater on top of the statistical evidence is praising LeBron's passing ability.

If you can find the opinion of someone who generally likes LeBron and has made a living as a LeBron stan like Skip Bayless has as a LeBron hater, and someone who thinks that LeBron is a better player than Jordan in general, yet at the same thinks that Jordan is a better passer than LeBron, feel free to point out such a person. Except such a person doesn't exist.

[TheGoatest]

Who said they were incapable? They were very capable. The game being anchored from the 3 point line was just not how basketball was played in the 80's/90's so there was not emphasis put on practicing the 3 religiously like it is today. Back then, the post and midrange was the focus with certain players specializing in the 3.


You can say the same thing about today. LeBron is not exactly a 3 point specialist today. Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant are 3 point specialists. In Jordan's era players like Reggie Miller and Dale Ellis were 3 point specialists. Or we can go between these two eras and point out how Kobe Bryant was not a 3 point specialist in relation to a Ray Allen or a Dirk. Every era has this and will continue to have this.
Or we could go way back to a time where there were no 3 pointers at all. If LeBron has an unfair advantage of playing in an era where there is a higher emphasis on the 3 (and don't give me any crap where you say "Who said that?" again, because you sure as hell are implying it), then what about Jordan playing in an era where he has an advantage over Jerry West and Oscar Robertson. For all I know Jerry West might've been the undisputed GOAT had he had a 3 point line. He didn't. And I'm judging him based on what actually happened. For all I know Jordan might've scored 7631 career playoff points had he played more seasons. He didn't. And I'm judging him based on what actually happened.



No, I explained both. Jordan averages more points on more difficult shots that are less efficient. A higher FG% is maintained by Lebron because half of his shots come within 10 ft of the basket.

LeBron's ability to generate more efficient shots only counts as a plus in his favor over Jordan, just like the types of shot Jordan took count in his favor over someone who took less efficient shots than him. This is organized basketball we're discussing, not who can make a more difficult shot in a game of H-O-R-S-E.

And LeBron maintaining a higher fg% in spite of taking more 3s than Jordan, and especially more 3s compared to his own overall FGAs, in comparison to the amount of 3s Jordan took compared to his own FGAs is all the more impressive. Which is why your Dwight Howard, a player who barely takes any 3s, example is so ridiculous.



Woah there little guy. You are the one who wanted to contextualize the 3 point line being shortened from 95-97, not me. So I agreed to go by your standard. Don’t move the goalposts now :lol

You were completely fine comparing their 3 point percentages while also knowing their attempts before. But now that you know Jordan shoots a better % from the traditional 3 point line you say it’s not impressive because of so many less attempts? Newsflash retard: Jordan attempted significantly less 3’s whichever way you slice it LMAO.

34.4 > 33.7 :lol

When the hell was I fine with comparing 3 point percentages without context? Ironically, you are un-contextualizing the contextualization itself.

I don't know what post you're referring to, but this is what I wrote in my two previous posts about this subject:

"Did Dwight Howard average more 3 point attempts AND still have a higher fg% than LeBron, as is the case with LeBron and Jordan? LeBron averaged nearly double the 3 point attempts Jordan did and still maintained a higher fg% (and higher 3pt%)"

"And the fact that LeBron maintained a higher overall FG% despite shooting nearly twice as many 3s makes it even more impressive, regardless of era."

I clearly mention the context (3 point attempts) in both of these posts. And even if I hadn't, would I really need to point the obvious logic that "less 3 point attempts = the 3 point attempts you do take are the ones you are most comfortable with the prospect of making = higher 3 point percentage"?

Merely judging players based on their 3 point percentage alone is the stupidest thing one can do. Ironic that you brought up Dwight Howard a couple of posts earlier, because he is the perfect example for how stupid judging a player based on his 3 point percentage without taking number of attempts is: Did you know that Dwight Howard is currently shooting 75% from behind the 3 point line this season? No, that's not a typo. Go look it up. That means that according to the logic you're trying to use in the LeBron-Jordan debate, he's twice the 3 point shooter that Steph Cury and Kevin Durant are. :lol

I said if a player has a higher 3 point percentage than another player while also at the same time taking more 3s than that player, it can only indicate that that player is the better 3 point shooter. That logic is fool-proof, unlike judging a player only based on his 3 point percentage alone no matter how low his 3 point attempts are, or for that matter judging a player on a 3 point total alone no matter how low his 3 point percentage is.

All this by the way is also what I'm doing with this whole Jordan-LeBron playoff points discussion. I am taking both their point averages as well as totals into account. You on the other hand are doing everything you can to stick to averages alone, because you know that the combination of Jordan's totals and averages, based on the uniqueness of its place in history, isn't as impressive as the combination of LeBron's.


The other fact we know is that Lebron took 212 games to reach 5,987 points whereas it only took Jordan 179 games. Advantage Jordan.

Yes, you've said that. LeBron then proceeded to play more games and add more points onto his total. Jordan didn't. In the realm of logic, assumptions and probabilities do exist, but they do not outweigh certainty. My sympathies that this doesn't fit your current agenda.


And your sorry methodology also leads you to conclude guys like Dennis Johnson and Jeff Hornacek are more impressive playoff scorers than Carmelo Anthony and Tracy McGrady, which literally nobody agrees with. Nobody besides you uses this random bunk ass methodology as a standard besides you. Your methodology holds 0 weight.

No, nobody would agree with that extreme example. But odds are that they would've at least heard about any player you use in your extreme example to make the discrepancy logic look bad, unlike my extreme example to make the ppg only logic look bad - some random bench-warmer players from the 70s who have a higher career playoff ppg than Robert Horry or Derek Fisher.

[TheGoatest]

And Lebron has the 2 unquestionably statistically inferior Finals series. Btw, what happened to your boy in 2011? I think there’s still sh*t stains on his draws . Jordan never performed that poorly in any series or was outplayed that clearly by another player in any series. Explain to us what happened.

He has two sub-par finals statlines mostly due to, unlike Jordan, being good enough to make it to the finals at an earlier age. All these earlier trips to the finals and longer playoff runs amount to more playoff series won, which amounts to more playoff points scored, which in the end adds to his playoff point total that Jordan and his failure to win as many series couldn't match.

In the 1996 Finals, Jordan was outplayed by a player from the opposing team.

A 22 year-old Jordan lost in the 1st round while he was outplayed by a player from a team who went on to be swept in the 2nd round by a team who lost in the conference finals. A 22 year-old LeBron made the finals.


Al Horford is a more efficient scorer than Lebron. He also attempts more shots that are further from the basket than Lebron. Is he a better scorer?

Serge Ibaka is a more efficient scorer than Lebron. He also attempts more shots that are further from the basket than Lebron. Is he a better scorer?

The answer is no. The same is true for Jordan and Lebron.

Jordan is the superior scorer. Period the end.

Horford and Ibaka "attempting more shots that are further from the basket than LeBron" is factually wrong. Unless you mean their average distance is greater, in relation to their overall field goal attempts. I don't know about that, and could care even less. But me accepting the "logic" that Ibaka or Horford are better scorers than LeBron would still only mean that:

Ibaka > LeBron > Jordan

Horford > LeBron > Jordan

I'm not sure if that's what you want me to admit, but judging by your overall pro-Jordan agenda I don't think so.

And this was never a discussion about who was the "greater scorer". This was about who has greater career accomplishments - hence the "accomplish" in the title. Accomplishments as in general body of work that encapsules everything that player accomplished and not some crappy customized, specific area of accomplishments that in the end has John Havlicek looking better than Jordan or Allen Iverson looking better than LeBron.

This then turned to who has the greater scoring accomplishments, in the playoffs in particular. And the combination of LeBron's playoff point total and his playoff point average is more impressive than those of Jordan.


Stick to your standard. You said if a player’s % difference in total points is greater than their average they are a more impressive playoff scorer. It shouldn’t matter what example I bring up. You can either stick to your standard or move the goal post...and you’re moving the goal post.

In case you haven’t noticed we’re talking post season. Zion Williamson hasn’t made the post season retard.

I stuck to my standard. I already mentioned a more riduclous example than yours, or any you can find to make my logic look bad = random bench warmers from the 1970s nobody has heard of having higher career playoff ppgs than Robert Horry and Derek Fisher.

I only mentioned Zion Williamson as a bonus, independent of my Horry/Fisher example in order to show how pathetically desperate you were by involving players who have accomplished nothing in the playoffs into a playoffs-related discussion. All the while I was complaining "LeBron James in the playoffs" to "Michael Jordan in the playoffs", independent of their regular seasons, which by the way we can also take into account if you want.

And I find it ironically funny that you're not willing to discuss Zion's potential in the playoffs, but you are willing to imply that Jordan would've scored the 1500+ playoff points had he played more games.
How about this? Since you're willing to admit that the example of Zion is invalid and shouldn't be discussed, how about you also admit that any notion of Jordan's non-existent playoff points past the 5987 he scored being invalid? After all, he has played exactly as many playoff games as Zion past his 179 games in which he scored 5987 points. I will sign on all that bullshit you wrote about Jordan having a better "scoring arch" or whatever, taking more difficult shots etc., and Jordan having marginally better playoff scoring accomplishments than LeBron when you compare Jordan's and LeBron's first 179 playoff games, if you sign on Jordan averaging 0.0 points on 0% shooting had he played in the following 87 games. If you're not willing to sign this, then shut up and compare their entire playoff careers based on what actually happened. Take longevity into account without saying we should say "stop" after 179 playoff games, when LeBron played another 87 games after that.

[TheGoatest]

We could also look at the reason Lebron won 4 FMVP’s on multiple teams was because he had to continue hopping to different teams and couldn't win with Cleveland his first go around. Unlike Jordan who won it 6 times with the same franchise.

We could also discuss that that 73-9 Warrior team was significantly weakened with Iggy and Curry being hobbled, Bogut getting injured, and Draymond getting suspended.

We could also make a Finals won to playoffs outright missed ratio.

We could also discuss that Jordan never lost Finals MVP one time in his six Finals appearances, while Lebron lost Finals MVP six times, four of which were to his primary assignment.

6 FMVP's > 4 FMVP's


We could also look at how two of the times he joined a new team, that team consisted of nothing but career losers who have never played a playoff game. We could also look at how all the teammates LeBron won his Finals MVPs with without exception did considerably worse than LeBron in the playoffs, whereas a teammate Jordan won with did better on each of the two occassions he played without Jordan than Jordan did in either of the two occassions he played without him.

We could also point out how Kevin Love missed a game in the 2016 finals. And "Draymond getting suspended" is not factually correct and is misleading. He got a technical, an 100% appropriate one by the way, which triggered a suspension because of the amount of previous technicals he obtained.

But since you pointed out injuries, we could also talk about how Jordan's teammates Pippen, Rodman and Grant all collectively missed exactly 0 playoffs/finals games due to injuries in Bulls 6 championship runs, whereas LeBron's teammates Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love and Anthony Davis all missed at least one and as many as double digits playoff games, including finals games.
Yes, quantity of MVPs are the part of the picture that works in Jordan's favor. It's still not the full picture and leaves itself open to all kinds of examples of one player having one or multiple Finals MVPs that are clearly and laughably not as good as a player who doesn't have any Finals MVPs.


And the Johnson to Iverson total point comparison is full on proof that just because you total more points doesn’t make you a better or more “impressive” scorer. By your standard one of these is true: Either Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Allen Iverson, or Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony. Which one is it?

Once again, you can pick either example. Neither of those examples is as ridiculous as a random benchwarmer from the 70s being a better playoff scorer than Robert Horry or Derek Fisher.
I have never said total points equals better or more impressive scorer. Unlike you with totals, I have included averages in the equation. I have said that the combination of LeBron's total playoff points and his playoff points average is more impressive than the combination of Jordan's total playoff points and his playoff point average. And I said that an objective person, who knew nothing about the two players would think that LeBron's combination is more impressive as well.

[TheGoatest]

And being the stan/hater you are, you would say Lebron's number are more impressive. What's the difference?

In your comparison you also didn't mention that Player B passes more which leads to more assists. You also didn't mention Player B weighs more, is taller, and plays closer to the basket which leads to more rebounds. You also didn't mention Player B averages more turnovers. You also didn't mention Player B is worse from the foul line. Which way do you want to slice this?

Yes, I would say that LeBron's numbers are more impressive.

But I've presented a situation where Jordan and LeBron were only known as Player A and Player B to a person who knows nothing whatsoever about the two players themselves, but one who still knows plenty about basketball and has access to historical playoff leaderboards, both totals leaderboards and averages leaderboards. And in that situation, there is no doubt that Player B would get chosen.

Yes, we could include the other stats, some of which work in either Player A's favor, such as the higher FT%, lower turnovers and some would work in Player B's, such as FG%, 3point related stats and fewer minutes. These differences wouldn't make any difference in the final choice.

Unfortunately for your case "passes attempted" is not a recorded stat, and is a presumption. "Field goals attempted" on the other hand is a recorded stat. Passes being converted into field goals made by teammate is however a recorded stat - assists. Which Player B averages more of.

Player B being taller and heavier while averaging more assists would only work in Player B's favor as looking like the more unique player of the two. Had the smaller Player A averaged more rebounds than Player B despite being smaller, then he would have something to counter that with. But he doesn't.


I'm the one fighting for scraps when you're the one making up random methodologies on the fly to push your narrative? . The only thing you've debunked is that your objective because you failed to account for 7+ other players in relation to offensive rebound opportunities in order to make your boy look more impressive. Nobody's falling for it nerd.

Jordan averages more points, more offensive rebounds, more steals, and less turnovers.

Lebron averages more assists, more defensive rebounds, and more turnovers.

They equal each other in blocks.

Based on those averages I would rather have the player who gives me more points, second chance opportunities, turns the ball over less, and is better on the defensive end - as more steals and equal blocks tells me he's likely better (which Jordan is).

And who says who would choose what? You certainly don't. This is your opinion, not a fact. Your entire point is moot.

Common sense, as in 28.7 ppg generally not being considered a low number to the same extent as 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg is a "random methodologies".

I've already debunked your 7+ player theory, with a counter 7+ theory of my own that you can't prove anything about yourself. Truly objective people are definitely "falling for it". I don't doubt that blatantly biased Jordan stans and blatantly shameless LeBron haters aren't.

Again, I know "you" would take the player who averages more points, etc. because you know that player is Jordan and the other player is LeBron.
An objective person wouldn't have a golden rule that says "higher ppg = better, regardless of other stats", but that person would ask "Well how many ppg vs ppg are we exactly talking about? How many rpg vs how many rpg are we talking about?" and so on.


Lol ok, tell me. When has a shooting guard been criticized for averaging 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg?

And yes, I would absolutely rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game. 4.7 more points, 2.6 less rebounds, and 1.5 less assists is the same discrepancy at any total LOL. You're 75.4/9.0/7.2 vs 80/6.4/5.7 example is the same difference as what their averages show now. That was a dumbass example and didn't prove anything lol. It's only a wrong opinion to you because of your Lebron love affair.

You are not the arbiter of what an objective fan would choose between their averages. You don't know what someone would or wouldn't choose. This is a meaningless, irrelevant, and moot point. You wasted your time.

At the end of the day though what does all this debating mean? What is the point? What is the end goal for the GOAT?

Winning and being recognized as the best player en route to championships.

6/6/6 > 4/10/4

6/13>4/15.

Your simplistic and biased 6/13 > 4/15 or whatever examples are easily countered by not only LeBron being better than Jordan in certain other areas that hold values in an overall judgment of a player (10 finals in 19 seasons > 6 finals in 15 seasons, 14 out of 15 first round record > a 10/13 one), but they are also countered by examples of players being better than Jordan in those same areas, but who would never be considered as good as Jordan.

And you mentioning Player A being a shooting guard is just blatantly displaying your shameless bias in what is supposed to be a "Player A" vs "Player B" discussion. I said that if an objective person, without any agenda, preconceived assumptions, without knowing the names, positions, height, weight, teams, eras, whatever the hell else about those players and only knew this:

Player A has these playoff numbers:
33.4 ppg and a 5987 point total
6.4 rpg and a 1152 rebound total
5.7 apg and a 1052 assist total
2.1 spg and a 376 steal total
0.9 bpg and a 158 block total

while Player B has these playoff numbers:
28.7 ppg and a 7631 point total
9.0 rpg and a 2391 rebound total
7.2 apg and a 1919 assist total
1.7 spg and a 454 steal total
0.9 bpg and a 252 steal total

He would be unquestionably be more inclined to pick player B based on what we know are high and low numbers for a particular statistical category. He would be more inclined to think that Player A has an exceptionally high scoring number, but that he seems to be overwhelmingly a scorer who specializes in that area in comparison to Player B. Whereas Player B looked to have a ppg that there is nothing wrong with whatsoever,and at the same time seemed like the superior all-round player who doesn't specialize in one particular area.

Meanwhile, your blatant bias couldn't resist to give that objective person a bias-driven nudge and tell them: "What if you knew Player A was a shooting guard? Those 6.4 rpg and 5.7 apg wouldn't seem as bad in that context, right?"

Again, I ask you to show me one instance where 28.7 ppg is considered low, in any context.

I will find you instances where a player averaged not only 28.7, but even a couple of points LESS than that in a playoff/finals series, and that performance from that player (and I mean scoring/ppg performance alone) over that series is considered a textbook example of a great scoring series.

On the other hand, I can find you plenty of examples where 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg is considered low.

And you are STILL only talking about averages in the "Player A" vs "Player B" example, without taking totals into account. Yet those overall averages alone, even without totals considered still look better than Player A's.

[TheGoatest]

I lot of people bring up Lebron in these discussions but I would point out George Mikan did what MJ did and did it better.

10 Seasons of profession basketball
8 finals appearances
7 titles
2nd most efficient shooter in the game during his era.

Now if one were to rip on Michael one would point out that MJ got swept by Bird every time they played in the post season...

You could also point out that he's 1-3 in series against Isiah

You could also point out that all of his accomplishments happened during the doping era and that with basketball we don't know who cheated and who didn't cheat. And that he retired when the all-time greats were coming along (AI, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan)

Oh yeah, I forgot about Mikan. He is the most perfect example to counter the idiocy of the Jordan stans logic for what makes the GOAT. :oldlol:

[TheGoatest]

theman93/Baller789 logging in and out of his alts like:

https://acegif.com/wp-content/uploads/cat-typing-2.gif

:roll:

[theman93]

LMAO!! So it is "bias" because I cannot account for 7+ other Jordan teammate players, all the while you at the same time can't account for 7+ other LeBron teammates yourself. Yet it is "not bias" to casually ignore and overlook the 3.4 bricks/potential offensive rebounds we know with 100% certainty took place and were committed by Jordan himself. My argument doesn't consist entirely out of conjecture. Yours does. I have proof to counter your conjecture. You have none to counter mine.

Sorry, that's not how logic works. It doesn't work like that for any situation in life, except if you are a Jordan stan apparently. If you present hypothetical "evidence" I can't disprove, and I can counter with the exact same hypothetical evidence you can't disprove yourself, but on top of my counter I can present actual, 100% certain evidence (3.4 bricks/potential offensive rebounds), and you can't present any actual evidence to counter that, then I win the argument. It's called "innocent until proven guilty". You can't disprove anything that I cannot disprove myself. I can however prove that Jordan had 3.4 extra bricks/potential offensive rebounds. You can't prove anything.

And grabbing 1 offensive rebounds rebound out of every 17 bricks/potential rebounds is not impressive. In fact, statistically is flat out the opposite of impressive.
The fact is that Jordan, a 6'6 player had 3.4 more potential offensive rebounds we know of to grab generated by his own brickage. And the fact that a 6'6 player grabbed 0.2 offensive rebounds, a number 17 times smaller than 3.4 is not impressive.

Except mine isn't conjecture. The fact is that Jordan averages more offensive rebounds than Lebron when you account for all missed shot opportunities produced by themselves and their teammates. Period the end.

1.7 > 1.5


This season the average for missed field goals per game is 48.3. The average for offensive rebounds is 10.2. A number that is 4.7 times smaller. Let's take a season from Jordan's own era, shall we? In 1991-92 the average for missed field goals was 46.0. The average for offensive rebounds was 14.4. A number that is only 3.19 times higher, even less than LeBron's era! In other words offensive rebounds off missed shots were even more likely to occur in Jordan's era than LeBron's. Which is actually yet another piece of actual, non-conjecture driven evidence (the fact that offensive rebounds were more likely to occur in Jordan's era than in LeBron's) to show that the already low 0.2 number is not that impressive.
Yet taking all this into consideration you expect someone to be impressed by Jordan grabbing an offensive rebounds that is 17 times smaller based on the evidence (Jordan's extra 3.4 bricks/potential rebounds) we are certain of? Now that is emotionally charged.

And even if your desperate bringing up of teammates somehow worked in your/Jordan favor, it sure as hell wouldn't come anywhere near to covering the spread between 3.19 and 17.
You brought up a statistically neglible 0.2 offensive rebounds grabbed in desperation, yet in the end got buried with overwhelming mathematical evidence that that 0.2 number should be considerably higher. What back-firing self-ownage.

You're talking league average. I'm talking the average amount of offensive rebounds available to Jordan while he was on the court vs the amount of offensive rebounds available to Lebron while he was on the court. We don't know that number and league average is not relevant when we are talking team specific.

What we do know is 1.7 > 1.5






You just owned yourself again. Because 1.5 assists more on 4.7 less shots that LeBron averaged is actually more impressive, due to generating more points in the long run. They either make LeBron look like a higher IQ player than Jordan who played the game of basketball more correctly, or make Jordan look like someone who didn't play the game of basketball correctly and should've passed the ball more.

An assist has a FG% of 100%. We know for a fact that it counted as a basket. That means that LeBron's 1.5 assists generated at the very least 3.0 extra points on a 100% FG%, even if we assume that not a single assist he ever made was a 3 pointer, and LeBron is well known to be one of the best 3-pointer assisters. Meanwhile Jordan's 4.7 shots accounted for 2.3 points in an era we know for a fact teams, and especially Jordan took fewer 3 point attempts.

1.5 field goals on 1.000, that in addition are more likely to be 3pt field goals > 2.3 field goals on .487 fg%, that in addition are far less likely to be 3pt field goals
This is the very core of my argument for why LeBron is the GOAT. I don't think he is the greatest scorer of all time. I don't think that he is the greatest passer of all time. But I do think, or to be more prceise I know that his combination of scoring and passing is definitely the greatest of all time, and no other player ever including Jordan has had these two aspects of his offensive game flow as seamlessly and naturally into each other as LeBron, while at the same time being a great rebounder and defender.

Ok fine. Lebron's 1.5 assists at the very least generated 3 points.

Add 3 points to Lebron's 28.7 points he scores on average and that leaves him at 31.7 ppg. That's still less than Jordan's 33.4 ppg. :lol

Let's take it a step further and assume those 1.5 assists are all 3's. That's 4.5 points on top of the 28.7 points he scores on average leaving him at 33.2 ppg. That's also still less than Jordan's 33.4 ppg :lol :lol :lol

Whichever way you slice it Jordan adds more points to the scoreboard than Lebron. His average assists+points leads to more points than Lebron's assists+points.

Jordan's PER is higher than Lebron's. He is the more efficient player.

[theman93]

LeBron played more as the primary ball handler because that's in general a more useful and desired skill in basketball. Which by the way was also why he was projected to be as a dead-certain future #1 pick at the age of 15, which led to a longer career/higher playoff point total, etc. But that's another story.

If you have a player who is good at playing as a ballhandler/distributor, and also good at playing off the ball, any coach will choose for that player to be the ball-handler. That is why Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas are more celebrated than Reggie Miller and Klay Thompson, two of the greatest off-the-ball players in history.

I didn't bring up Skip Bayless as my primary evidence. My primary evidence is stat-based. I brought up Skip Bayles as a bonus, because his picture is in the dictonary when you look up the term "LeBron hater", and because he is constantly saying that LeBron isn't even close to Jordan as a player. Yet he still said that LeBron is the greatest passer in the history of the game, a statement I personally wouldn't go quite as far with. Which makes any discussion between LeBron's and Jordan's passing ability even more ridiculous, since such a blatant hater on top of the statistical evidence is praising LeBron's passing ability.

If you can find the opinion of someone who generally likes LeBron and has made a living as a LeBron stan like Skip Bayless has as a LeBron hater, and someone who thinks that LeBron is a better player than Jordan in general, yet at the same thinks that Jordan is a better passer than LeBron, feel free to point out such a person. Except such a person doesn't exist.

No, he played as a a primary ball-handler because he can't play off-ball in a system. He turns bigs in to perimeter players (Bosh, Love, Davis) and he turns ball handlers in to wings (Irving, Westbrook) in order to fit his play style.

Also, in your Johnson/Thomas being celebrated more than Miller/Thompson scenario you didn't take in to account that Miller and Thompson are not good at being ball handlers/distributors AND playing off ball. They are only good off ball. Where the rubber meets the road though is that MJ is the better offensive player period. His PER makes this evident.

[theman93]

You can say the same thing about today. LeBron is not exactly a 3 point specialist today. Stephen Curry and Kevin Durant are 3 point specialists. In Jordan's era players like Reggie Miller and Dale Ellis were 3 point specialists. Or we can go between these two eras and point out how Kobe Bryant was not a 3 point specialist in relation to a Ray Allen or a Dirk. Every era has this and will continue to have this.
Or we could go way back to a time where there were no 3 pointers at all. If LeBron has an unfair advantage of playing in an era where there is a higher emphasis on the 3 (and don't give me any crap where you say "Who said that?" again, because you sure as hell are implying it), then what about Jordan playing in an era where he has an advantage over Jerry West and Oscar Robertson. For all I know Jerry West might've been the undisputed GOAT had he had a 3 point line. He didn't. And I'm judging him based on what actually happened. For all I know Jordan might've scored 7631 career playoff points had he played more seasons. He didn't. And I'm judging him based on what actually happened.
Ok let's judge them on what actually happened. And I'm going by what you told me when you said - "...Jordan had 3 playoff runs with a shortened 3 point line that was virtually customized to be his ideal 3-point range. Which by the way, aside from his 40, 38 and 30 win playoff appearances, is another thing that should factored in Jordan's career, whether it's playoff or regular season career."

From the traditional 3 point line Jordan shoots 34.4% from three.

34.4 > 33.7. This is what actually happened.





LeBron's ability to generate more efficient shots only counts as a plus in his favor over Jordan, just like the types of shot Jordan took count in his favor over someone who took less efficient shots than him. This is organized basketball we're discussing, not who can make a more difficult shot in a game of H-O-R-S-E.

And LeBron maintaining a higher fg% in spite of taking more 3s than Jordan, and especially more 3s compared to his own overall FGAs, in comparison to the amount of 3s Jordan took compared to his own FGAs is all the more impressive. Which is why your Dwight Howard, a player who barely takes any 3s, example is so ridiculous.
Lebron also takes more shots closer to the basket. 50% of his FGA's come within 10 ft of the basket.

Only shooting 0.8% better is not impressive when 1 out of every 2 shots you are that close to the rim.



When the hell was I fine with comparing 3 point percentages without context? Ironically, you are un-contextualizing the contextualization itself.

I don't know what post you're referring to, but this is what I wrote in my two previous posts about this subject:

"Did Dwight Howard average more 3 point attempts AND still have a higher fg% than LeBron, as is the case with LeBron and Jordan? LeBron averaged nearly double the 3 point attempts Jordan did and still maintained a higher fg% (and higher 3pt%)"

"And the fact that LeBron maintained a higher overall FG% despite shooting nearly twice as many 3s makes it even more impressive, regardless of era."

I clearly mention the context (3 point attempts) in both of these posts. And even if I hadn't, would I really need to point the obvious logic that "less 3 point attempts = the 3 point attempts you do take are the ones you are most comfortable with the prospect of making = higher 3 point percentage"?

Merely judging players based on their 3 point percentage alone is the stupidest thing one can do. Ironic that you brought up Dwight Howard a couple of posts earlier, because he is the perfect example for how stupid judging a player based on his 3 point percentage without taking number of attempts is: Did you know that Dwight Howard is currently shooting 75% from behind the 3 point line this season? No, that's not a typo. Go look it up. That means that according to the logic you're trying to use in the LeBron-Jordan debate, he's twice the 3 point shooter that Steph Cury and Kevin Durant are. :lol

I said if a player has a higher 3 point percentage than another player while also at the same time taking more 3s than that player, it can only indicate that that player is the better 3 point shooter. That logic is fool-proof, unlike judging a player only based on his 3 point percentage alone no matter how low his 3 point attempts are, or for that matter judging a player on a 3 point total alone no matter how low his 3 point percentage is.

All this by the way is also what I'm doing with this whole Jordan-LeBron playoff points discussion. I am taking both their point averages as well as totals into account. You on the other hand are doing everything you can to stick to averages alone, because you know that the combination of Jordan's totals and averages, based on the uniqueness of its place in history, isn't as impressive as the combination of LeBron's.

Uhhhhhhhhh dumbass YOU are the one who wants to judge, "based on what actually happened." I'm the one who has been trying to add context this whole time.

I've also already addressed Lebron's totals (longevity) many pages ago. Feel free to re-read.



Yes, you've said that. LeBron then proceeded to play more games and add more points onto his total. Jordan didn't. In the realm of logic, assumptions and probabilities do exist, but they do not outweigh certainty. My sympathies that this doesn't fit your current agenda.

And what is certain is it took Jordan 179 games to reach 5,987 points, whereas it took Lebron 212 games to reach 5,987 points. My condolences.




No, nobody would agree with that extreme example. But odds are that they would've at least heard about any player you use in your extreme example to make the discrepancy logic look bad, unlike my extreme example to make the ppg only logic look bad - some random bench-warmer players from the 70s who have a higher career playoff ppg than Robert Horry or Derek Fisher.
You would agree with that example because it's the methodology you created. If you don't agree with that example then you don't even believe in your own methodology.

Feel free to explain how any of those players you listed are worse playoff scorers than Robert Horry and Derek Fisher. Both of which who were not even good playoff scorers.

[theman93]

He has two sub-par finals statlines mostly due to, unlike Jordan, being good enough to make it to the finals at an earlier age. All these earlier trips to the finals and longer playoff runs amount to more playoff series won, which amounts to more playoff points scored, which in the end adds to his playoff point total that Jordan and his failure to win as many series couldn't match.

In the 1996 Finals, Jordan was outplayed by a player from the opposing team.

A 22 year-old Jordan lost in the 1st round while he was outplayed by a player from a team who went on to be swept in the 2nd round by a team who lost in the conference finals. A 22 year-old LeBron made the finals.
You didn't explain what happened to Lebron in 2011. Are you gonna dodge the question again?

In 1996 Jordan won Final's MVP. He was outplayed by no one.

In 2007 and 2011 Lebron lost Final's MVP. He was outplayed by Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, and Dirk Nowitzki.

When Jordan reaches the Finals, he wins every time. When Lebron reaches the Finals he loses more often than not.



Horford and Ibaka "attempting more shots that are further from the basket than LeBron" is factually wrong. Unless you mean their average distance is greater, in relation to their overall field goal attempts. I don't know about that, and could care even less. But me accepting the "logic" that Ibaka or Horford are better scorers than LeBron would still only mean that:

Ibaka > LeBron > Jordan

Horford > LeBron > Jordan

I'm not sure if that's what you want me to admit, but judging by your overall pro-Jordan agenda I don't think so.

:lol

So now not only have you given up that Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Allen Iverson, Jeff Hornacek is a more impressive playoff scorer than Tracy McGrady, and Dennis Johnson is a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony, but now you're also giving up that Ibaka and Horford are better scorers than Lebron. LOL. The conversation stops there bud. The amount of absurdities you hold to makes it pointless to have a basketball debate with you :roll: :roll:

[SATAN]

Good work owning these clowns, TheGoatest. :applause:

[Baller789]

Good work owning these clowns, TheGoatest. :applause:

Except he didn't.

Feel free to defend his methodology.

[Baller789]

theman93/Baller789 logging in and out of his alts like:

https://acegif.com/wp-content/uploads/cat-typing-2.gif

:roll:

I thought you said I was Axe? Now I'm theman93 too?
:roll:

BTW I'm still waiting for someone to agree with your methodology. It's seems all you have is a lone Bran stan. :yaohappy:

[outofstomach]

Except he didn't.

Feel free to defend his methodology.

him, RRR3 and other brontards never do :lol they just repeat the same phrases and come up with no actual arguments

[Baller789]

him, RRR3 and other brontards never do :lol they just repeat the same phrases and come up with no actual arguments

Because they just regurgitate Nick Wrong and Shannon Dull.

Both (including Skip, Stephen A. and Colin Cowhead) are WWE commentators at best.

[TheGoatest]

Except mine isn't conjecture. The fact is that Jordan averages more offensive rebounds than Lebron when you account for all missed shot opportunities produced by themselves and their teammates. Period the end.

1.7 > 1.5

No, yours is entirely based on conjecture. Mine contains a number we are certain about, and is therefore automatically more valid. I have definitive proof that Jordan had an extra 3.4 extra potential offensive rebounds opportunities per game. Your "you can't account for 7+ teammates" proof is as much "proof" as me saying that you can't account for the extra 0.3 minutes LeBron played less per game in which he could've potentially grabbed an offensive rebound and thereby averaged 2.5 offensive rebounds.

0.2, a number that is unimpressive to begin with = even more unimpressive taking account it came from 3.4 extra opportunities we are certain about, and a number that should be higher



You're talking league average. I'm talking the average amount of offensive rebounds available to Jordan while he was on the court vs the amount of offensive rebounds available to Lebron while he was on the court. We don't know that number and league average is not relevant when we are talking team specific.

What we do know is 1.7 > 1.5

Yes, league average, as in how likely is it for an average player to grab an offensive rebound from a missed shot. And if I'm being generous, the league average ratio was 1 offensive rebounds to 5 potential rebound opportunities, whether it was LeBron's or Jordan's era. Jordan's 0.2 extra offensive rebounds to 3.4 more potential offensive rebounds opportunities we are certain of is a 1 to 17 ratio. Even compensating for position that isn't impressive. It's not impressive for a 5'9 point guard, and it's even less impressive for a 6'6 shooting guard.

What we do know for sure is that Jordan had extra 3.4 opportunities to grab 0.2 offensive rebounds, with energy saved by the substantially higher 2.8 rebounds less grabbed on the defensive end.



Ok fine. Lebron's 1.5 assists at the very least generated 3 points.

Add 3 points to Lebron's 28.7 points he scores on average and that leaves him at 31.7 ppg. That's still less than Jordan's 33.4 ppg.

Let's take it a step further and assume those 1.5 assists are all 3's. That's 4.5 points on top of the 28.7 points he scores on average leaving him at 33.2 ppg. That's also still less than Jordan's 33.4 ppg

Whichever way you slice it Jordan adds more points to the scoreboard than Lebron. His average assists+points leads to more points than Lebron's assists+points.

Jordan's PER is higher than Lebron's. He is the more efficient player.

Exactly. Except in the midst of all of your bias-ridden "gotcha" excitement when you were converting those assists into points, you forgot to factor in the fact that those 3.0/4.5 extra LeBron points would have a 1.000 field goal percentage, compared to Jordan's 33.4 points, but where his field goal percentage remains the same at .487. LMAO!! And adding 1.5 extra field goals made without adding any field goal attempts/missed field goals onto LeBron's statline improves his already higher than Jordan’s field goal percentage up to .565.

Now try finding someone, anyone who thinks that 33.4 points per game on a .487 field goal percentage is more impressive than 32 points on .565. See how far that gets you. First they'll ask you if you're being serious, then proceed to pick the obvious, latter choice 11 times out of 10. Again, assuming that they know nothing about the players, and only know them as Player A vs Player B. Which I KNOW is extremely hard for you because such a controlled environment without any emotional string attached doesn't favor your cause, and you couldn't resist contaminating that person's opinion by attempting to sway their opinion in favor of Player A, like you are about to do in your upcoming reply.

Now in desperation you're opening a new flank that is PER, a number that is altered negatively by LeBron's extra longevity and him having played his first playoffs at a younger age than Jordan's age during his first playoffs, as well as having played a playoffs at an older age than Jordan's last playoffs. This also alters LeBron's general per game averages, by the way.



No, he played as a a primary ball-handler because he can't play off-ball in a system. He turns bigs in to perimeter players (Bosh, Love, Davis) and he turns ball handlers in to wings (Irving, Westbrook) in order to fit his play style.

Also, in your Johnson/Thomas being celebrated more than Miller/Thompson scenario you didn't take in to account that Miller and Thompson are not good at being ball handlers/distributors AND playing off ball. They are only good off ball. Where the rubber meets the road though is that MJ is the better offensive player period. His PER makes this evident.

LeBron not being able to play off the ball is an absolute crap claim that isn’t fueled by any empirical proof, and only fueled by LeBron hater slander circle-jerking, because throughout his career he was overwhelmingly a ball-handler/distributor as this is by far the more desirable skill in a basketball player. All this circle-jerking about a player who we know for a fact has played 1-4 positions in championship playoff runs, and even played a little center.

The fact is that LeBron has not one, but two off the ball, catch-and-shoot playoff buzzer beater game winners (vs Magic in 2009 and vs Bulls in 2015). Yet another playoff buzzer beater game winner (layup vs Pacers in 2013) was initiated by his off the ball movement. The last point of game 7/series that was scored in the 2016 Finals against the 73-9 Warriors came from a LeBron free throw that was created by his off-the-ball drive to the basket, where he was fouled hard by Draymond Green. Nothing that a little hate-fueled circle-jerking with zero empirical evidence, other than LeBron being overwhelmingly a ball-handler due to it being a more desirable skill, won’t fix though.

LeBron turned Bosh, Love, Davis and Irving into champions while proving that HE turned THEM into champions and not vice-versa by winning multiple champions without any of them while they didn’t win a single championship without him. Jordan turned Pippen into a lower scorer and ruined his all-round stats without proving that he could win a championship without him, whereas while not winning a championship Pippen proved that he could have deeper playoff runs and coming closer to a championship in both of the occasions he played without Jordan than Jordan did in either of the two occasions he played without Pippen.

Any coach with any player who is capable of playing off the ball and also being a primary ball handler/distributor will choose the latter. And if that player in question is a 6’9, 250 pound physical marvel, then he will choose the latter tenfold.

The only thing that is evident in Jordan’s PER is that he didn’t have as impressive playoff book-ends as LeBron due to his inferior longevity. You are so desperate to adjust their totals through first 179 playoff games. But if we adjust their playoff appearances by age (Jordan’s 22-35 to LeBron’s 22-35), then LeBron has 1. better playoff averages (which he has as is), still has 2. higher totals in all 5 categories (including 1000K more points), as well as 3. a higher PER. The trifecta.

[TheGoatest]

Ok let's judge them on what actually happened. And I'm going by what you told me when you said - "...Jordan had 3 playoff runs with a shortened 3 point line that was virtually customized to be his ideal 3-point range. Which by the way, aside from his 40, 38 and 30 win playoff appearances, is another thing that should factored in Jordan's career, whether it's playoff or regular season career."

From the traditional 3 point line Jordan shoots 34.4% from three.

34.4 > 33.7. This is what actually happened.

No, you moron.

34.4% on an ultra selective 2.2 3PA (something I always maintained should be included) vs 33.7% on a more than twice as high 4.8 3PA is what actually happened
And of these two, the latter is more impressive.

Where in that quote do I specify, or even imply that 3PAs should not be taken into consideration? Sorry, no “gotcha” moment for you yet again.
The substantial difference between Jordan’s 2.2 3PA behind the properly distanced 3 point line vs his 3.4 3PA on the shortened, pee-wee line just proves how uncomfortable he was behind a properly distanced 3 point line and that the shots he took behind a normal 3 point line needed to be extra selective.


Lebron also takes more shots closer to the basket. 50% of his FGA's come within 10 ft of the basket.

Only shooting 0.8% better is not impressive when 1 out of every 2 shots you are that close to the rim.

All of those points still count as 2 points. In a world where the game of basketball is played in such a way where shots closer to the rim/layups/dunks count as 1 point and mid-range shots count as 2, that should be taken into consideration. In this world though, where they all count as 2 points, it looks like idiocy beyond belief, which attempts to make a player who is good enough to create more better/smarter shots in relation to his overall field goal attempts look bad, when it in fact only makes him look better.


Uhhhhhhhhh dumbass YOU are the one who wants to judge, "based on what actually happened." I'm the one who has been trying to add context this whole time.

I've also already addressed Lebron's totals (longevity) many pages ago. Feel free to re-read.

What you have done is addressed LeBron’s totals, and then proceeded to constantly circle-jerk about how his totals, when compared to Jordan’s totals, should include some asterisk because Jordan played 179 playoff games and LeBron played 266. Or you wanted LeBron’s totals to stop being counted after 179 because Jordan played 179 games. But that’s not how things work. Especially in this case that ultimately ends up working against you. Because if we stop counting totals at 179 games, then why not 178? Or 177? Or all the way down to 1/their playoff debut, where LeBron scored 32 points and Jordan scored 23.

I on the other hand have always focused on neither playoff totals alone, nor playoff averages alone, but the combination of the two, and how they relate to each other. Which if we take historical context based on the leaderboards of both playoff totals as well as playoff averages, the combination of the two ends up being in LeBron’s favor. In desperation, you then proceeded to find the most extreme example you could find in Jeff Hornacek vs Tracy McGrady or whatever, two players with completely different roles, essentially comparing apples to oranges while I have compared apples to apples all the time.

You can’t win the argument when we’re discussing averages alone (overall averages, aside from just ppg), where you are desperately grasping for straws in the form of statistically negligible 0.2 extra offensive rebounds Jordan averaged in 0.3 more minutes on 3.4 more potential offensive rebound opportunities we are certain of, with energy saved by not going after 2.8 defensive rebounds on the other end.

But if we discussed averages + totals combined, you have no case whatsoever.


And what is certain is it took Jordan 179 games to reach 5,987 points, whereas it took Lebron 212 games to reach 5,987 points. My condolences.

What is certain is that LeBron went on to score 1500+ points more after he scored his 5987th point. Jordan went on to score 0 after he scored his 5987th point. Send your condolences to Jordan’s previously owned playoff point total record, which LeBron broke in 2017.

[TheGoatest]

You would agree with that example because it's the methodology you created. If you don't agree with that example then you don't even believe in your own methodology.
Feel free to explain how any of those players you listed are worse playoff scorers than Robert Horry and Derek Fisher. Both of which who were not even good playoff scorers.

My methodology has always been apples vs apples – LeBron vs Jordan. Your methodology has been Allen Iverson vs Dennis Johnson (which started this whole thing) and Tracy Mcgrady vs Jeff Hornacek - apples vs oranges, and then expanding to apples vs cantaloupes.

In response to this, I countered with the Horry/Fisher example that tops even your most extreme example.

And you’re right about me being unable to prove those 1970s bench players being worse playoff scorers than Horry or Fisher. Why? Because I can’t find anything relating to their existence aside from their pages on basketball-reference.com, whereas I can find plenty of clutch shots/clutch scoring stretches in the playoffs and finals by Horry and Fisher, all over Youtube. It should be your job to prove that they were in fact better playoff scorers, as according to your methodology (higher playoff ppg) they should be.


You didn't explain what happened to Lebron in 2011. Are you gonna dodge the question again?
In 1996 Jordan won Final's MVP. He was outplayed by no one.
In 2007 and 2011 Lebron lost Final's MVP. He was outplayed by Tony Parker, Tim Duncan, and Dirk Nowitzki.
When Jordan reaches the Finals, he wins every time. When Lebron reaches the Finals he loses more often than not.

I already explained what happened in 2011: LeBron lost in a playoff round that took place deeper in the playoffs than the round Jordan lost in at the same age in 1989. Or even one year later in 1990 for that matter. In that round, the all-round player LeBron had a 7.2 rebound and 6.8 assist average, two averages that Jordan never averages at the same time in any of his 6 finals.

In the 1996 finals Jordan was outplayed by Shawn Kemp. That is a statistical fact. Yes, I know he still won the Finals MVP despite being outplayed. I’ve pointed this out already.

Your 2007 finals is even more ridiculous. I would like to compare a 22 year-old LeBron’s finals to a 22 year-old Jordan’s finals, but unfortunately at that age Jordan was busy losing to Terry Cummings in the 1st round of the playoffs, whose team then got swept in the 2nd round by a team that lost in the conference finals to a team that lost in the finals. And not only did he lose, but he lost while being outscored as a player who was predominantly a scorer and not an all-rounder like LeBron.
When LeBron makes the Finals, he isn’t awarded the Finals MVP despite being by far the best player in the series. When Jordan makes the finals, he is awarded the Finals MVP despite being outplayed by a player from the opposing team.

When LeBron misses the playoffs, he misses them despite having a 42-40 record. When Jordan makes the playoffs, he makes them despite having a 30-52 record.

When LeBron makes the playoffs, he wins the first round 14 out of 15 times. When Jordan makes the playoffs, he wins it 10 out of 13 times.

When LeBron plays a season he makes the finals 10 out of 19 times. When Jordan plays a season, he makes the finals 6 out of 15 times.

They both have pros and cons. But taking their entire bodies of work into consideration, LeBron’s is more impressive.


So now not only have you given up that Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Allen Iverson, Jeff Hornacek is a more impressive playoff scorer than Tracy McGrady, and Dennis Johnson is a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony, but now you're also giving up that Ibaka and Horford are better scorers than Lebron. LOL. The conversation stops there bud. The amount of absurdities you hold to makes it pointless to have a basketball debate with you

Yeah, you probably should stop, as your brain is being drained to the point where you can’t read what I actually wrote, and are apparently beginning to hallucinate some scenario where I wrote that Ibaka and Horford are better scorers than LeBron.

[Baller789]

So have you found that someone who agrees with your methodology?

[ELITEpower23]

Good work owning these clowns, TheGoatest. :applause:

+1

[Baller789]

+1

:lebroncry:

[TheGoatest]

So have you found that someone who agrees with your methodology?

I have several, actual people who agree with mine.
You have several, alt accounts who "agree" with yours.

[Baller789]

I have several, actual people who agree with mine.
You have several, alt accounts who "agree" with yours.

Uh where?

[theman93]

Uh where?

Nowhere :lol

Let's make a thread

[Baller789]

Nowhere :lol

Let's make a thread

Maybe he hears voices in his head. :confusedshrug: