Will we ever see anyone achieve what mj did?

[Bronbron23]

10 scoring titles, 9 first team defense, 5 mvps, 6 chips and 6 fmvp's. I would of thought bron 10 years ago but no way he catches mj now. He may catch him in chips but that's about it and even that isn't looking great atm. Looking at this new crop you would think greek could come close but he dosn't score enough to get the scoring titles. He could probably get close in everything else. Luka will never get close enough in any category especially the defensive ones. Jalen green has the ability to grow into a mj/kobe type but who knows if he'll ever live up to it especially on the defensive end.

Any crazy prospects coming up in college or g league maybe?

[ELITEpower23]

7,631

LeUnbreakable

[Bronbron23]

7,631

LeUnbreakable

And another unintelligent answer from deletepower23. Damn this is becoming q common theme with you:roll:

[AirBonner]

Will we ever see someone retire twice in their prime? Not likely

[Hey Yo]

Mikemike23

[Baller789]

This thread proves once again...

No Mike...

... No Bran

:bowdown:

[TheGoatest]

7,631

LeUnbreakable

Being #1 in career playoff points was the only longevity-based accumulative record Jordan ever had, and LeGOATest not only broke it but absolutely demolished it. :(

[RRR3]

Mikemike23
Would have named himself this if he had two functioning neurons but alas he does not.

[3ba11]

Being #1 in career playoff points was the only longevity-based accumulative record Jordan ever had, and LeGOATest not only broke it but absolutely demolished it. :(


it was DOMINANCE-based (unprecedented PPG) - it wasn't based on longevity because Jordan didn't play many years like Lebron, so Jordan achieved #1 so quickly based on DOMINANCE

[k0kakw0rld]

10 scoring titles, 9 first team defense, 5 mvps, 6 chips and 6 fmvp's. I would of thought bron 10 years ago but no way he catches mj now. He may catch him in chips but that's about it and even that isn't looking great atm. Looking at this new crop you would think greek could come close but he dosn't score enough to get the scoring titles. He could probably get close in everything else. Luka will never get close enough in any category especially the defensive ones. Jalen green has the ability to grow into a mj/kobe type but who knows if he'll ever live up to it especially on the defensive end.

Any crazy prospects coming up in college or g league maybe?
4 rings, 4 fmvps 4 mvps, 3rd time in scoring, 8th in assists, will end up top 10 in rebounds as well by the end of the season. Same for 3 point made. He is currently #11 all-time. He is going to end up top 10 as well.

The man checks all the boxes and that hurts you. Poor little thing :lol

[2much_knowledge]

No way. No how. Sadly , im 35 and i don't think i'll get to see someone dominate with the style and grace like that in my lifetime

And certainly, not by having the luxury to retire twice and still having room. These players today need all the time on court and still can't catch up. Its embarrassing

[3ba11]

4 rings (less than MJ), 4 fmvps (less than MJ), 4 mvps (less than MJ), 3rd time in scoring (far less than jordan's goat PPG), 8th in assists, will end up top 10 in rebounds as well by the end of the season. Same for 3 point made. He is currently #11 all-time. He is going to end up top 10 as well.

The man checks all the boxes and that hurts you. Poor little thing :lol


^^^^ less than Jordan in all the categories you mentioned... less rings with more help (super-teams and 1b teammates) doesn't equal goat or even top 10 if we're being objective about his career choices

[2much_knowledge]

Will we ever see someone retire twice in their prime? Not likely

They can't afford to do it :/

[TheGoatest]

4 rings, 4 fmvps 4 mvps, 3rd time in scoring, 8th in assists, will end up top 10 in rebounds as well by the end of the season. Same for 3 point made. He is currently #11 all-time. He is going to end up top 10 as well.

The man checks all the boxes and that hurts you. Poor little thing :lol

Jordan's career accomplishments don't even match up with Kareem's, let alone LeBron and his monster longevity with 13 All-NBA 1st teams (nobody else has even 12) and 17 overall all-NBA selections (nobody else has even 16). And all-NBA teams are the oldest individual honors that exist. They have existed since the league's inaugural 1946-47 season, years before even all-star selections existed. Hence they are the fairest way to measure a player's true place in history.

On the other hand, Jordan's "record" Finals MVPs, even disregarding the fact that the ones from 1996 and 1998 are won on crap numbers, are only a record because the award didn't exist in Bill Russell's days, who would have between 8 and 10 Finals MVPs on a single franchise. Now 4 Finals MVPs on 3 teams in 2 conferences? That is something that wouldn't have been matched in Russell's days either.

[3ba11]

How could anyone think this compares to MJ... :yaohappy:..... :kobe:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faKyDAvI8uk&t=02m55s

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

I would say for this era Jordan was Durant in the regular season and kawhi in the playoffs.

Durant in the reg season (4 scoring titles)

Kawhi in the playoffs (best finals mvp run since 2000 and multiple PER leader).

[Spurs m8]

Bron was never catching him, confirmed as soon as he left for the Heat and it was clear he needed a lot of help

Then 2011 happened too hahahahha

Then all the other collusions and failures and on court, his peak just never came close.

I mean, Steph Curry demands far more respect from the opposition than even peak Bron ever did

He is nothing but empty longevity stats and manufactured hype....only the dumb buy it

[Axe]

Jordan's career accomplishments don't even match up with Kareem's, let alone LeBron and his monster longevity with 13 All-NBA 1st teams (nobody else has even 12) and 17 overall all-NBA selections (nobody else has even 16). And all-NBA teams are the oldest individual honors that exist. They have existed since the league's inaugural 1946-47 season, years before even all-star selections existed. Hence they are the fairest way to measure a player's true place in history.

On the other hand, Jordan's "record" Finals MVPs, even disregarding the fact that the ones from 1996 and 1998 are won on crap numbers, are only a record because the award didn't exist in Bill Russell's days, who would have between 8 and 10 Finals MVPs on a single franchise. Now 4 Finals MVPs on 3 teams in 2 conferences? That is something that wouldn't have been matched in Russell's days either.
Lebron got swept in the finals twice and lost in 2011 despite being heavily favored. Are you even aware of this, chap?

[Axe]

Bron was never catching him, confirmed as soon as he left for the Heat and it was clear he needed a lot of help

Then 2011 happened too hahahahha

Then all the other collusions and failures and on court, his peak just never came close.

I mean, Steph Curry demands far more respect from the opposition than even peak Bron ever did

He is nothing but empty longevity stats and manufactured hype....only the dumb buy it
Soggy m8

[Full Court]

7,631

LeUnbreakable

Dominance >>>>>>>>>>>>> longevity.

[Spurs m8]

Dominance >>>>>>>>>>>>> longevity.

Hilarious all they have is longevity stats

Like most turnovers in history.

Most playoff turnovers in history.

Most playoff missed shots in history!!!

LEGOAT :bowdown:

Sign me up, he is the GOAT!!!

[kawhileonard2]

How about these

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher



Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED



Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

[ELITEpower23]

7,631

LeUnbreakable

Guys? 7631

[kawhileonard2]

Guys? 7631

Guys

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher



Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED



Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

[Baller789]

Guys? 7631

Nice longevity stat.

He's arguably top 2 longevity-GOAT.

[TheGoatest]

Guys? 7631

LMAO, shut it down. Jordan stans dodging this unbreakable masterpiece LIKE A PLAGUE. :banana:

[kawhileonard2]

Guys

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher



Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED



Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

Shut it down guys!

[BigShotBob]

Guys

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher



Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED



Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

It's over.

[2much_knowledge]

Jordan's career accomplishments don't even match up with Kareem's, let alone LeBron and his monster longevity with 13 All-NBA 1st teams (nobody else has even 12) and 17 overall all-NBA selections (nobody else has even 16). And all-NBA teams are the oldest individual honors that exist. They have existed since the league's inaugural 1946-47 season, years before even all-star selections existed. Hence they are the fairest way to measure a player's true place in history.

On the other hand, Jordan's "record" Finals MVPs, even disregarding the fact that the ones from 1996 and 1998 are won on crap numbers, are only a record because the award didn't exist in Bill Russell's days, who would have between 8 and 10 Finals MVPs on a single franchise. Now 4 Finals MVPs on 3 teams in 2 conferences? That is something that wouldn't have been matched in Russell's days either.

Still 2 rings, 1 mvp, 2 fmvps, 1 dpoy, x3 steals leader and 2 three peats behind boy. Like it or not. Facts

With a perfect finals record to match and no 3 game losing streak for 8 years

Levels

[Bawkish]

Bron, king of Longevity stats

[Baller789]

Bron, king of Longevity stats

He is isn't he?

That's why his stans almost only post his stats in total which is hilarious.

[TheCorporation]

He is isn't he?

That's why his stans almost only post his stats in total which is hilarious.

Why do you post rings in total :lol Idiot :lol

[BigShotBob]

Still 2 rings, 1 mvp, 2 fmvps, 1 dpoy, x3 steals leader and 2 three peats behind boy. Like it or not. Facts

With a perfect finals record to match and no 3 game losing streak for 8 years

Levels

"Kawhi is better than Lebron."

"He has less MVPs, Final MVPs, and championships."

"MJ is better than Lebron because he has more MVPs, Final MVPs, and Championships."

"Well now I'm going to change the criteria."

[Axe]

"Kawhi is better than Lebron."

"He has less MVPs, Final MVPs, and championships."

"MJ is better than Lebron because he has more MVPs, Final MVPs, and Championships."

"Well now I'm going to change the criteria."
7631

[Baller789]

Why do you post rings in total :lol Idiot :lol

Is there such a thing as average rings?
:yaohappy::yaohappy::yaohappy:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Guys? 7631

Bragging about career playoff longevity records is really silly. KAJ did 4 years in college, MJ 3, whereas Lebron came right after his GED at age 18. LeGED played in a notably weak conference for the majority of his career, let shitty teams like Indiana and Toronto take him to 7 games. Also the first round was "first to win 3 games" until after Jordan retired, and KAJ often didn't have a first round at all.
To achieve what Lebron did you have to 1) Be allowed to enter the NBA right after high school (not allowed), let inferior teams take you to 7 games, have best of 7 rounds x 4. So to brag about a dude that has lost 6 finals is really silly - PPG matter most in the playoffs. Considering his weak competition, why doesn't LBJ lead in PPG in the playoffs? Why no DPOY? Only 1 scoring title in 19 years? Had he not joined superteams, had bailout shots from teammates and/or strike shortened seasons this dude would be 0/10 on the biggest stage.

[2much_knowledge]

"Kawhi is better than Lebron."

"He has less MVPs, Final MVPs, and championships."

"MJ is better than Lebron because he has more MVPs, Final MVPs, and Championships."

"Well now I'm going to change the criteria."

Are you on drugs. Only one fool here has claim Leonard is better than lebron. And we all know who he is

[2much_knowledge]

Bragging about career playoff longevity records is really silly. KAJ did 4 years in college, MJ 3, whereas Lebron came right after his GED at age 18. LeGED played in a notably weak conference for the majority of his career, let shitty teams like Indiana and Toronto take him to 7 games. Also the first round was "first to win 3 games" until after Jordan retired, and KAJ often didn't have a first round at all.
To achieve what Lebron did you have to 1) Be allowed to enter the NBA right after high school (not allowed), let inferior teams take you to 7 games, have best of 7 rounds x 4. So to brag about a dude that has lost 6 finals is really silly - PPG matter most in the playoffs. Considering his weak competition, why doesn't LBJ lead in PPG in the playoffs? Why no DPOY? Only 1 scoring title in 19 years? Had he not joined superteams, had bailout shots from teammates and/or strike shortened seasons this dude would be 0/10 on the biggest stage.

Too much logic and facts on this one bro. Simplify it for their level of reading comprehension

[warriorfan]

Bragging about career playoff longevity records is really silly. KAJ did 4 years in college, MJ 3, whereas Lebron came right after his GED at age 18. LeGED played in a notably weak conference for the majority of his career, let shitty teams like Indiana and Toronto take him to 7 games. Also the first round was "first to win 3 games" until after Jordan retired, and KAJ often didn't have a first round at all.
To achieve what Lebron did you have to 1) Be allowed to enter the NBA right after high school (not allowed), let inferior teams take you to 7 games, have best of 7 rounds x 4. So to brag about a dude that has lost 6 finals is really silly - PPG matter most in the playoffs. Considering his weak competition, why doesn't LBJ lead in PPG in the playoffs? Why no DPOY? Only 1 scoring title in 19 years? Had he not joined superteams, had bailout shots from teammates and/or strike shortened seasons this dude would be 0/10 on the biggest stage.

Yes, this of course is all common knowledge and why 99% of the forum doesn’t even bother to give him the time of day. We appreciate the effort though. :cheers:

[TheCorporation]

No longevity needed kids, pull up a chair and listen up. How did pass LeBron pass MJ and KAJ in playoff poinys using an equal 13 playoff runs? Oh, because he led his team in Finals scoring 9x and MJ only did it 6x, Kareem 4x.

But how did he do that?

Oh, he had zero 1st round exits and was #1 option for 9 Finals.

So you see, LeBar has been set for 7,631.

• Make 13 playoffs
• Be #1 option for at least 9x Finals
• Never lose in the 1st round (and definitley not 3x) :lol

Case closed

[Hey Yo]

Bragging about career playoff longevity records is really silly. KAJ did 4 years in college, MJ 3, whereas Lebron came right after his GED at age 18. LeGED played in a notably weak conference for the majority of his career, let shitty teams like Indiana and Toronto take him to 7 games. Also the first round was "first to win 3 games" until after Jordan retired, and KAJ often didn't have a first round at all.
To achieve what Lebron did you have to 1) Be allowed to enter the NBA right after high school (not allowed), let inferior teams take you to 7 games, have best of 7 rounds x 4. So to brag about a dude that has lost 6 finals is really silly - PPG matter most in the playoffs. Considering his weak competition, why doesn't LBJ lead in PPG in the playoffs? Why no DPOY? Only 1 scoring title in 19 years? Had he not joined superteams, had bailout shots from teammates and/or strike shortened seasons this dude would be 0/10 on the biggest stage.

How great was the competition and defense KAJ had to face going through the 80's?

The competition 18yr old was facing was the same MJ faced with Washington, but you guys cream your jeans over MJ doing that.

[Baller789]

No longevity needed kids, pull up a chair and listen up. How did pass LeBron pass MJ and KAJ in playoff poinys using an equal 13 playoff runs? Oh, because he led his team in Finals scoring 9x and MJ only did it 6x, Kareem 4x.

But how did he do that?

Oh, he had zero 1st round exits and was #1 option for 9 Finals.

So you see, LeBar has been set for 7,631.

• Make 13 playoffs
• Be #1 option for at least 9x Finals
• Never lose in the 1st round (and definitley not 3x) :lol

Case closed

No longevity stats needed...

... Then proceeds to pull out a bunch of longevity stats

:whatever:

You can't mAke this sh!t up people! :lol

[999Guy]

It won’t, but why would you want to see that?

I don’t wanna see any shit I have already seen, in a way I’ve already seen it.

If you described Nikola Jokic, in just the year 2017, before he really got the minutes(he was already a superstar), it would sound video game like and unbelievable. Like UFO’s, and time travel unbelievable. Just pure fantasy.

I’d rather see more shit like that.

Whatever Sabonis would’ve done to the NBA, if not for the Cold War and injuries, would be equally as interesting and entertaining to me. For good reason. Something unique. Truly unique.


You realize you are setting yourself up for failure even contemplating this right? There will never be another Jordan. If there could be, you would wonder why the **** hou would obsess over him in the first place. Probably plenty of athletic shot jackers on the wing though.

[BigShotBob]

Are you on drugs. Only one fool here has claim Leonard is better than lebron. And we all know who he is

True but that's the general argument used against him by the Bran fam.

[paksat]

lebronze will never average 37 ppg, he's incapable of getting to 30 for that matter hell 28 for that matter.

for the greatest athlete ever, dwyane wade averages more blocks per game than he does. Lebronze will never even be half the defender that wade and jordan were, that alone means he's garbage in comparison to them because he certainly can't come close to the points jordan can score let alone the defense of either one.

give jordan prime dwyane wade and they may never even lose a game

[TheGoatest]

Bragging about career playoff longevity records is really silly. KAJ did 4 years in college, MJ 3, whereas Lebron came right after his GED at age 18. LeGED played in a notably weak conference for the majority of his career, let shitty teams like Indiana and Toronto take him to 7 games. Also the first round was "first to win 3 games" until after Jordan retired, and KAJ often didn't have a first round at all.
To achieve what Lebron did you have to 1) Be allowed to enter the NBA right after high school (not allowed), let inferior teams take you to 7 games, have best of 7 rounds x 4. So to brag about a dude that has lost 6 finals is really silly - PPG matter most in the playoffs. Considering his weak competition, why doesn't LBJ lead in PPG in the playoffs? Why no DPOY? Only 1 scoring title in 19 years? Had he not joined superteams, had bailout shots from teammates and/or strike shortened seasons this dude would be 0/10 on the biggest stage.

Jordan played in an era where a 40 win, a 38 win and a 30 win (not a typo!) season was enough for a playoff spot. LeBron missed the playoffs with a 42 win season. If LeBron played under Jordan's playoff-making criteria conditions, his unbreakable playoff scoring record would be even more unbreakable.

[Bawkish]

Jordan played in an era where a 40 win, a 38 win and a 30 win (not a typo!) season was enough for a playoff spot. LeBron missed the playoffs with a 42 win season. If LeBron played under Jordan's playoff-making criteria conditions, his unbreakable playoff scoring record would be even more unbreakable.

Bron played in a conference where the 1st seed had 50 wins :lol

[SATAN]

Jordan played in an era where a 40 win, a 38 win and a 30 win (not a typo!) season was enough for a playoff spot. LeBron missed the playoffs with a 42 win season.

Wow. Very interesting indeed.

[TheGoatest]

Bron played in a conference where the 1st seed had 50 wins :lol

Um, no. Are you kidding? That would be Wizards Jordan. :oldlol: The #1 seeds in 2001-02 (52-30 New Jersey Nets) and 2002-03 (50-32 Detroit Pistons) are literally the #1 and #2 lowest win 1st seeds in any conference since the introduction of the 3 point line. And Jordan failed to make the playoffs in either of these two seasons.

The two times LeBron missed the playoffs the #1 seed in the east were the 61 win Pacers and the 59 win Heat.

[Bawkish]

Um, no. Are you kidding? That would be Wizards Jordan. :oldlol: The #1 seeds in 2001-02 (52-30 New Jersey Nets) and 2002-03 (50-32 Detroit Pistons) are literally the #1 and #2 lowest win 1st seeds in any conference since the introduction of the 3 point line. And Jordan failed to make the playoffs in either of these two seasons.

The two times LeBron missed the playoffs the #1 seed in the east were the 61 win Pacers and the 59 win Heat.

practically the same era :lol

[TheGoatest]

practically the same era :lol

Except not literally the same era.
Jordan on the other hand literally made the playoffs with 40, 38 and 30 win teams. :oldlol:

[Bawkish]

Except not literally the same era.
Jordan on the other hand literally made the playoffs with 40, 38 and 30 win teams. :oldlol:

how is 2001-2003 a different era compared to the rest of 2000s???

[TheGoatest]

how is 2001-2003 a different era compared to the rest of 2000s???

Do you not know what numbers are bigger than others, or what? Not watching enough Sesame Street as a kid?

2002 east #1 seed: 52 wins
2003 east #1 seed: 50 wins

2004 east #1 seed: 61 wins
2005 east #1 seed: 59 wins

You yourself are the one who brought up the records of the #1 seeds and got yourself into this mess, where you look like a fool.

The rest of the 2000s LeBron made the playoffs. And not only made the playoffs, but got out of the first round each time, including making the finals.

[Bawkish]

Do you not know what numbers are bigger than others, or what? Not watching enough Sesame Street as a kid?

2002 east #1 seed: 52 wins
2003 east #1 seed: 50 wins

2004 east #1 seed: 61 wins
2005 east #1 seed: 59 wins

You yourself are the one who brought up the records of the #1 seeds and got yourself into this mess, where you look like a fool.

The rest of the 2000s LeBron made the playoffs. And not only made the playoffs, but got out of the first round each time, including making the finals.

I'm comparing eras, not individual seasons you turd

2000s Eastern Conference overall is weak compared to the West

[Axe]

I'm comparing eras, not individual seasons you turd

2000s Eastern Conference overall is weak compared to the West
I guess that makes more sense if you point out that two different teams from the east have been swept in the finals during that decade.

[TheGoatest]

I'm comparing eras, not individual seasons you turd

2000s Eastern Conference overall is weak compared to the West

Actually, we were initially comparing specific amount of wins required for a team to get a playoff spot in the 2000s east and 1980s east, which are related to LeBron's and Jordan's career playoff point totals.
And Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in 1985 with 38 wins, in 1986 with 30 wins and 40 wins in 1987. Meanwhile, 42 wins was not enough to get a playoff spot in 2005.

After I pointed these facts out, and made the guy who implied that LeBron's playoff point total is inflated look like a fool, you proceeded to look like a fool yourself by saying that LeBron played in an era where 50 win #1 seeds played in a desperate goal post move attempt to make LeBron look bad. But in reality it was Wizards Jordan and NOT LeBron who played in the seasons where 50 and 52 win #1 seeds existed.

Only THEN, after you got owned by being presented with the fact that it was in fact Jordan who played in a season where 50 win #1 seed existed did you in desperation proceed to deflect and talk about how 2001-03 is "practically" the same era as the rest of the 2000s.

Next time do your homework and check whether your "arguments" hold water, or you'll get exposed as a desperate fact-dodging ignoramus once again.

[Baller789]

Actually, we were initially comparing specific amount of wins required for a team to get a playoff spot in the 2000s east and 1980s east, which are related to LeBron's and Jordan's career playoff point totals.
And Jordan's Bulls made the playoffs in 1985 with 38 wins, in 1986 with 30 wins and 40 wins in 1987. Meanwhile, 42 wins was not enough to get a playoff spot in 2005.

After I pointed these facts out, and made the guy who implied that LeBron's playoff point total is inflated look like a fool, you proceeded to look like a fool yourself by saying that LeBron played in an era where 50 win #1 seeds played in a desperate goal post move attempt to make LeBron look bad. But in reality it was Wizards Jordan and NOT LeBron who played in the seasons where 50 and 52 win #1 seeds existed.

Only THEN, after you got owned by being presented with the fact that it was in fact Jordan who played in a season where 50 win #1 seed existed did you in desperation proceed to deflect and talk about how 2001-03 is "practically" the same era as the rest of the 2000s.

Next time do your homework and check whether your "arguments" hold water, or you'll get exposed as a desperate fact-dodging ignoramus once again.

So is Lebron the GOAT?

[Sulico]

If we'll ever have relatively weak era in terms of talent, and player as remarkable as Jordan dropped on that era, with some luck we might have the same results.

[expansionera]

Jordan was the most manufactured star in the weakest era in NBA history, it’s for that reason we’ll never see the perfect storm of commercialization of an individual player. As far as skill, we’ve already seen Jordan’s records get surpassed in almost every category especially playoff category.

[RRR3]

lebronze will never average 37 ppg, he's incapable of getting to 30 for that matter hell 28 for that matter.

for the greatest athlete ever, dwyane wade averages more blocks per game than he does. Lebronze will never even be half the defender that wade and jordan were, that alone means he's garbage in comparison to them because he certainly can't come close to the points jordan can score let alone the defense of either one.

give jordan prime dwyane wade and they may never even lose a game
He’s “incapable” of averaging 30 yet he’s done it twice and narrowly missed it a third time. Are you retarded?

[John_Connor]

lebron is his 19th year trying to achieve a little over half of what a guy did in 13 years basically. nobody will ever catch MJ

[Shogon]

lebron is his 19th year trying to achieve a little over half of what a guy did in 13 years. nobody will ever catch MJ

Bill Russell won 15 titles out of 17 years because he understood team dynamics on the court like no other in basketball history and he was a psychotic competitor that used to vomit before games from getting so worked up with wanting to win. Also? You're gay.

[John_Connor]

Bill Russell won 15 titles out of 17 years because he understood team dynamics on the court like no other in basketball history and he was a psychotic competitor that used to vomit before games from getting so worked up with wanting to win. Also? You're gay.

and if the 60s had finals mvps and the league wasn't piss at the time and Russell was also great on offense and didn't win everything with 7 or 8 hall of fame teammates at a time he would be run away goat


but there's this thing called context and prestige


the league during lebrons era was almost as much of a joke as the 60s with all the baiting/freedom of movement fouls and collusions so even if lebron had 11 titles like Russell people would still question his goat status.

oh yeah and then there's the whole steroid thing.

there's no chance for lebron. all he has a chance to.do is what kobe already did. pass jordan in points and all nba teams and come up short in accolades

oh well. good job. good effort

[Baller789]

Jordan was the most manufactured star in the weakest era in NBA history, it’s for that reason we’ll never see the perfect storm of commercialization of an individual player. As far as skill, we’ve already seen Jordan’s records get surpassed in almost every category especially playoff category.

Which playoff records were that?

[expansionera]

Which playoff records were that?

Which statistical category does Jordan lead Lebron in? Certainly not scoring, boards or assist.

[theman93]

Which statistical category does Jordan lead Lebron in? Certainly not scoring, boards or assist.

You're making a longevity argument. Bring that argument full circle:

Missed FG's - Lebron: 2,777 | Jordan: 2,309

Missed 3's - Lebron: 851 | Jordan: 298

Missed FT's - Lebron: 615 | Jordan: 303

Turnovers - Lebron: 975 | Jordan: 546

[Bronbron23]

Which statistical category does Jordan lead Lebron in? Certainly not scoring, boards or assist.

What? Mj has more ppg per game dude. Wtf are smoking on?

[Airupthere]

Lets not forget how much better and a more prolific free throw shooter Lebron is than MJ.

Career playoff FTs made
1. Lebron - 1749
2. Jordan - 1463

[theman93]

What? Mj has more ppg per game dude. Wtf are smoking on?

He's making a longevity argument, which is why he wants to use totals. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize Dennis Johnson has scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs than Allen Iverson - yet no one would argue Dennis Johnson is a better scorer than AI.

As for what you're going to get out of each player in a given game, using averages is the only logical option.

[Baller789]

At the end of the day, Lebrontards only have longevity arguments. :blah
Or some made up BS milestones no one really cares about. :oldlol:

[Axe]

He's making a longevity argument, which is why he wants to use totals. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize Dennis Johnson has scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs than Allen Iverson - yet no one would argue Dennis Johnson is a better scorer than AI.

As for what you're going to get out of each player in a given game, using averages is the only logical option.
But 7631 tho coach

[Baller789]

Lets not forget how much better and a more prolific free throw shooter Lebron is than MJ.

Career playoff FTs made
1. Lebron - 1749
2. Jordan - 1463

Hey lebron is one of the greatest ft shooters of all time! Better than Mike! :lol

[SATAN]

LeBron James.

[2much_knowledge]

lebron is his 19th year trying to achieve a little over half of what a guy did in 13 years basically. nobody will ever catch MJ

Simple

[2much_knowledge]

LeBron James.

2 rings, 2 fmvps. 1 mvp, 1 dpoy and and 2 three peats missing.....

[Baller789]

2 rings, 2 fmvps. 1 mvp, 1 dpoy and and 2 three peats missing.....

But but but he has more total:

Points
Rebounds
Assists
Turnovers
Collusions
Chokejobs
PEDs

:coleman:

[BigShotBob]

lebron is his 19th year trying to achieve a little over half of what a guy did in 13 years basically. nobody will ever catch MJ

Shut it down

[Chick Stern]

lebron is his 19th year trying to achieve a little over half of what a guy did in 13 years basically*. nobody will ever catch MJ

*during the weakest NBA era

[paksat]

*during the weakest NBA era

while picking his roster

[Airupthere]

Hand-picked teammates and not one 3peat?

[Baller789]

Hand-picked teammates and not one 3peat?

Lebron basically had a bye for a decade in his own Conference and couldn't even win at least half of his finals while being swept twice and a finals with record blowout losses.

:roll:

[Airupthere]

Lebron basically had a bye for a decade in his own Conference and couldn't even win at least half of his finals while being swept twice and a finals with record blowout losses.

:roll:

He (together with his banana boat superfriends) were practically a shoe-in to the finals year in and year out. All he had to do was finish strong in the finals and he could not do that? 2011 was his best shot and could not get it done.

[Bronbron23]

He's making a longevity argument, which is why he wants to use totals. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize Dennis Johnson has scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs than Allen Iverson - yet no one would argue Dennis Johnson is a better scorer than AI.

As for what you're going to get out of each player in a given game, using averages is the only logical option.

Yeah both totals and ppg can have their flaws but all things being close to equal seasons played wise ppg is a much better measure

[Baller789]

Yeah both totals and ppg can have their flaws but all things being close to equal seasons played wise ppg is a much better measure

Agreed.

As long as the sample size is big enough and efficiency being almost equal:

It should be ppg>>>>>pts total

Especially when the other guy has more championships and major awards that matter.

[paksat]

Yeah both totals and ppg can have their flaws but all things being close to equal seasons played wise ppg is a much better measure

Only two things really matter, minutes and points during those minutes.

[Baller789]

Only two things really matter, minutes and points during those minutes.

That's also good.

[SATAN]

LeBron James.

[Baller789]

LeBron James.
Hello there troll.

[2much_knowledge]

Hand-picked teammates and not one 3peat?

Ouch. That one hurt em deep

[2much_knowledge]

But but but he has more total:

Points
Rebounds
Assists
Turnovers
Collusions
Chokejobs
PEDs

:coleman:

Sad thing is NOT at the same game played. Not even lol

[TheGoatest]

He's making a longevity argument, which is why he wants to use totals. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize Dennis Johnson has scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs than Allen Iverson - yet no one would argue Dennis Johnson is a better scorer than AI.

As for what you're going to get out of each player in a given game, using averages is the only logical option.

You and the rest of Jordan stans are making a rings argument. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize that Robert Horry has won more rings than Jordan - yet no one would argue that Horry was a better player than Jordan. Horry is 7/7 in the finals as well, to cover your bullshit "finals winning percentage" conjecture based crap "argument".

[Axe]

8 year-old spoiled brat chooses candy b because it can keep its flavor for a longer time.

[TheGoatest]

8 year-old spoiled brat chooses candy b because it can keep its flavor for a longer time.

Agree. Desperately moving goal posts from a "LeBron vs Jordan" debate to a random-ass "Dennis Johnson vs Allen Iverson" debate is beyond pathetic.

[Baller789]

You and the rest of Jordan stans are making a rings argument. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize that Robert Horry has won more rings than Jordan - yet no one would argue that Horry was a better player than Jordan. Horry is 7/7 in the finals as well, to cover your bullshit "finals winning percentage" conjecture based crap "argument".

Who's bringing up Horry anyways? Bran stans?
Everyone knows he's a role player.
Your argument is simply disingenious

Apples to oranges.

[Axe]

Agree. Desperately moving goal posts from a "LeBron vs Jordan" debate to a random-ass "Dennis Johnson vs Allen Iverson" debate is beyond pathetic.
Idk bub. What i do know tho is, both players suck because they have played in the weak and watered-down 90s.

[TheGoatest]

Who's bringing up Horry anyways? Bran stans?
Everyone knows he's a role player.
Your argument is simply disingenious

Apples to oranges.

Odd that you should become upset about Horry, yet you and your Axe alt didn't seem upset when a Jordan stan randomly brought up Dennis Johnson in a pro-Jordan move. Exhibit of your hypocrisy #378347845.

Now go randomly insult "Mike" Jordan in some other thread so that it seems that you're not really a Jordan stan and you can save up ammo in order to appear extra "objective" when you take a pro-Jordan stance in every LeBron vs Jordan debate.

[Axe]

Odd that you should become upset about Horry, yet you and your Axe alt didn't seem upset when a Jordan stan randomly brought up Dennis Johnson in a pro-Jordan move. Exhibit of your hypocrisy #378347845.

Now go randomly insult "Mike" Jordan in some other thread so that it seems that you're not really a Jordan stan and you can save up ammo in order to appear extra "objective" when you take a pro-Jordan stance in every LeBron vs Jordan debate.
A gimmick account accusing someone of having other accounts. Amazeballs.

[2much_knowledge]

You and the rest of Jordan stans are making a rings argument. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize that Robert Horry has won more rings than Jordan - yet no one would argue that Horry was a better player than Jordan. Horry is 7/7 in the finals as well, to cover your bullshit "finals winning percentage" conjecture based crap "argument".

Someone explain to the boy ring count is only used to separate all time greats?

[TheGoatest]

Someone explain to the boy ring count is only used to separate all time greats?

Oh really? And longevity, All-NBA 1st teams, rebounds and assists and other things LeBron has over Jordan aren't used to separate all time greats?

But fine, I'll bite. Does John Havlicek (13 time all-star, finals MVP, multiple all-NBA 1st teams/all-defensive 1st teams) qualify as an "all time great"?
He has 8 rings. 8/8 in the finals. Didn't "jump ship" or any of the other crap you use to customize the criteria to make LeBron look bad in comparison to Jordan.
How is John Havlicek compared to Jordan all time? Is his resumé as good as the goal-post moving skills you are about to display in your following reply?

[hold this L]

I still can't get over that a MJ stan actually was dumb enough to name himself after Lebron. :facepalm

[theman93]

You and the rest of Jordan stans are making a rings argument. But that doesn't hold much water when you realize that Robert Horry has won more rings than Jordan - yet no one would argue that Horry was a better player than Jordan. Horry is 7/7 in the finals as well, to cover your bullshit "finals winning percentage" conjecture based crap "argument".

How many Finals MVP’s does Horry have?

[RRR3]

I still can't get over that a MJ stan actually was dumb enough to name himself after Lebron. :facepalm
Dumbdumb23 is one of the stupidest posters in ISH history, unsurprising he’d be dumb enough to do that.

[dankok8]

I can't believe there's people who still don't understand... It's not about rings. It's about leading a team to rings.

Guys having more rings than Jordan is irrelevant. How many players led their team to more rings than Jordan? Only Russell who is obviously the frontrunner for GOAT except most people don't put him there because of the time machine argument where Russell in this era wouldn't be that good. And he wouldn't but that doesn't in any way minimize what he actually did when he played.

[TheGoatest]

How many Finals MVP’s does Horry have?

John Havlicek has a finals MVP, also has 8 rings, is 8/8 in the finals and didn't "jump ship". What's your reply to that?

[TheGoatest]

I can't believe there's people who still don't understand... It's not about rings. It's about leading a team to rings.

Guys having more rings than Jordan is irrelevant. How many players led their team to more rings than Jordan? Only Russell who is obviously the frontrunner for GOAT except most people don't put him there because of the time machine argument where Russell in this era wouldn't be that good. And he wouldn't but that doesn't in any way minimize what he actually did when he played.

It's not about rings.
It's not about "leading" a team to rings either. If it was, then Chauncey Billups would be universally recognized as a better player all-time than Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Bill Walton would be universally recognized as a better player than Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor.
It's not about one single thing in particular.
It's about many things combined that are on your resumé.
And because you stan Jordan and hate LeBron, you put positive spin on everything that looks good on Jordan's resumé and disregard everything that looks bad, whereas you mock everything that looks bad on LeBron's resumé and put a negative spin on everything that looks good.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

How many guys won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting a FMVP or 25 ppg (elite-producing sidekick)

[hateraid]

This thread proves once again...

No Mike...

... No Bran

:bowdown:

Ironic considering you bring up Lebron every thread.
I don't need to read the rest of the thread to see you probably have Lebron in your mouth every other page

[hateraid]

Thread cliff

Cucker789 is pouting about Lebron

3ball cherrypicking Jordan stats out of his ass

Do I need to read the thread for confirmation?

[3ba11]

Thread cliff

Cucker789 is piuing about Lebron

3ball cherrypicking Jordan stats out of his ass

Do I need to read the thread for confirmation?


You don't think it's significant that everyone in history that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg?

Except Jordan, who won 6 with a sidekick that was 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 15-21 ppg

[hateraid]

You don't think it's significant that everyone in history that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg?

Except Jordan, who won 6 with a sidekick that was 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 15-21 ppg

Thanks for confirming I was right lol

[ELITEpower23]

I'm still waiting on 7,631

[3ba11]

Thanks for confirming I was right lol


What other sidekick was 0/6 in FMVP and 0/6 in achieving elite scoring in the Finals?

Only Pippen... Again - only Jordan had to win a bunch of rings without an elite-producing sidekick, and obviously without a FMVP sidekick

[dankok8]

It's not about rings.
It's not about "leading" a team to rings either. If it was, then Chauncey Billups would be universally recognized as a better player all-time than Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Bill Walton would be universally recognized as a better player than Oscar Robertson and Elgin Baylor.
It's not about one single thing in particular.
It's about many things combined that are on your resumé.
And because you stan Jordan and hate LeBron, you put positive spin on everything that looks good on Jordan's resumé and disregard everything that looks bad, whereas you mock everything that looks bad on LeBron's resumé and put a negative spin on everything that looks good.

Leading a team isn't the only thing that matters but it's by far the most important factor in ranking GOAT-caliber players. Billups never led the Pistons to a ring. That 2004 Pistons was an ensemble team with no clear-cut best player. Walton is obviously an extreme case of lack of longevity. There is always exceptions to every rule but make a GOAT list by descending order of MVP'ss + Finals MVP's and it's a pretty good starting point.

There is no spin being put on anything. Nor am I a Jordan stan or a Lebron hater. For you every view is absolute and people either agree or disagree with you. Things are a bit more nuanced than that. I also disagree plenty with 3ball and some other Jordan stans or whatever you call them.

[expansionera]

What other sidekick was 0/6 in FMVP and 0/6 in achieving elite scoring in the Finals?

Only Pippen... Again - only Jordan had to win a bunch of rings without an elite-producing sidekick, and obviously without a FMVP sidekick

Pippen didn’t produce elite defense (higher defensive rating than Whoredan), rebounding (more rebounds on championships than Whoredan), assist (more assists on championship teams than Whoredan), steals and blocks?

Scottie did all the dirty work Jordan couldn’t to get out of the first round. Jordan is the only champion in history to leave his team and they win 54 games and make it to the second round without him? Will we EVER see an individual player have as much help as the GOAT coach and second best player in his era?

[3ba11]

Pippen didn’t produce elite defense (higher defensive rating than Whoredan), rebounding (more rebounds on championships than Whoredan), assist (more assists on championship teams than Whoredan), steals and blocks?





Jordan doubled Pippen's playoff scoring average and averaged more assists for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career, with more DPOY votes every year - Jordan was simply a far better scorer, passer and defender than Pippen.. If the Bulls needed elite playmaking (more than 7 apg) ONLY jordan could provide it (and he did many times).






Scottie did all the dirty work Jordan couldn’t to get out of the first round. Jordan is the only champion in history to leave his team and they win 54 games and make it to the second round without him? Will we EVER see an individual player have as much help as the GOAT coach and second best player in his era?





Jordan did the dirty work by virtue of getting more DPOY votes every year than Pippen (top 5 DPOY from 88-98'), and being considered the best defender in the league.

And guys like Marc Gasol, KJ or Ty Lawson won 55 games so it's nothing - once the honeymoon period of surprise factor ended in the 94' Playoffs, the Bulls were borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber - so the 95' Bulls were the REAL bulls without MJ and they sucked until MJ lifted them to 3-peat caliber.

[TheGoatest]

Leading a team isn't the only thing that matters but it's by far the most important factor in ranking GOAT-caliber players. Billups never led the Pistons to a ring. That 2004 Pistons was an ensemble team with no clear-cut best player. Walton is obviously an extreme case of lack of longevity. There is always exceptions to every rule but make a GOAT list by descending order of MVP'ss + Finals MVP's and it's a pretty good starting point.

There is no spin being put on anything. Nor am I a Jordan stan or a Lebron hater. For you every view is absolute and people either agree or disagree with you. Things are a bit more nuanced than that. I also disagree plenty with 3ball and some other Jordan stans or whatever you call them.

The 2004 Pistons were an ensemble team?? And the 90s Bulls were not? In what way was Michael Jordan better than Dennis Rodman/Horace Grant that Chauncey Billups was not better than Ben Wallace?
Walton is an extreme case of lack of longevity? Guess what - LeBron is an extreme case of possession of longevity. Which is why he is the GOAT.

John Havlicek led the Celtics to a ring in 1974, when he won Finals MVP as well. During that regular season he was all-NBA 1st team and all-NBA defensive 1st team. He won another ring without Bill Russell in 1976 and 6 more with Russell. 8 rings in total. That's 1 ring as the unquestionable main man, 1 more ring as an arguable main man and 6 more rings as a sidekick. So how come he is ranked well below Oscar Robertson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Dirk Nowitzki on every all-time list? Do you have an explanation for that as well, or are you casually going to play the "exception" card like you did with the Billups and Walton example?

You are definitely trying to put a pro-Jordan/anti-LeBron spin, and your post history proves it.

[Gudo]

Another impressive one about Jordan is that he played all 82 games 9x in his career. I can only imagine his totals had he not gotten injured in year 2, and if he didn't retire.

[3ba11]

The 2004 Pistons were an ensemble team?? And the 90s Bulls were not? In what way was Michael Jordan better than Dennis Rodman/Horace Grant that Chauncey Billups was not better than Ben Wallace?





Ben Wallace was the Pistons' best player because Chauncey wasn't a dominant scorer that carried the offense like Jordan did, while also being the team's best defender like Jordan was - Jordan got the most DPOY votes on the team every year (top 5 DPOY from 88-98')

And the Bulls were the least ensemble cast in history because there's never been a bigger statistical gap between the 1st option and his teammates than the 80's and 90's Bulls... Furthermore, Jordan is the only guy that won a bunch of rings with non-elite-producing teammates or non-elite producing sidekick - anyone else that won more than 2 Finals had teammates win FMVP or average 25+

[Airupthere]

Wait, did the stan just say that Billups is MJ as Ben Wallace is to Horace Grant? :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

What other sidekick was 0/6 in FMVP and 0/6 in achieving elite scoring in the Finals?

Only Pippen... Again - only Jordan had to win a bunch of rings without an elite-producing sidekick, and obviously without a FMVP sidekick

What other sidekicks were named All NBA on both ends of the court for 5 titles?

[ELITEpower23]

What other sidekicks were named All NBA on both ends of the court for 5 titles?

And outscored opponent's #2 option in 5 of 6 Finals?!

And led MJ in total REB, AST, STLS, and BLKS during those 6 years?!

[2much_knowledge]

I can't believe there's people who still don't understand... It's not about rings. It's about leading a team to rings.

Guys having more rings than Jordan is irrelevant. How many players led their team to more rings than Jordan? Only Russell who is obviously the frontrunner for GOAT except most people don't put him there because of the time machine argument where Russell in this era wouldn't be that good. And he wouldn't but that doesn't in any way minimize what he actually did when he played.

So simple.... the only reason Bill ain't recognized universally as the goat is because it was the weaker era with a low number of teams. And because individual awards and some stats weren't even around at the time

[dankok8]

In what way was Michael Jordan better than Dennis Rodman/Horace Grant that Chauncey Billups was not better than Ben Wallace?

:biggums:

[TheGoatest]

:biggums:

Will you answer the question or not?
Billups screwed Ben Wallace out of the 2004 finals MVP every bit as much as Jordan screwed Dennis Rodman out of the 1996 one.
Jordan never won a championship where his role was "everything", unlike a certain someone:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b9/6c/6b/b96c6b310d76f32dd065a4f9713d6cad.jpg

[theman93]

John Havlicek has a finals MVP, also has 8 rings, is 8/8 in the finals and didn't "jump ship". What's your reply to that?

Havlicek was a sidekick until the late 60's.

Outside of 1974, the only other time he was FMVP worthy was 1968.

1963 he played in only 4 out of 6 games and only averaged 8 minutes.
1964 Sam Jones clearly outplays him.
1965 Sam Jones clearly outplays him.
1966 Bill Russell clearly outplays him.
1969 Jerry West outplays him so badly he was awarded FMVP even though LA lost.
1976 loses FMVP award to Jo Jo White and wasn't even the 2nd best player on his own team.

This is really your comparison? LMAO

[Pip' N Rodman]

What did he achieve? 1-9 lol?

[TheGoatest]

Havlicek was a sidekick until the late 60's.

Outside of 1974, the only other time he was FMVP worthy was 1968.

1963 he played in only 4 out of 6 games and only averaged 8 minutes.
1964 Sam Jones clearly outplays him.
1965 Sam Jones clearly outplays him.
1966 Bill Russell clearly outplays him.
1969 Jerry West outplays him so badly he was awarded FMVP even though LA lost.

This is really your comparison? LMAO

You asked "how many Finals MVPs does Robert Horry have?", thinking you had a mic-drop moment.
I provided you with a player with a Finals MVP, who also has two more rings than Jordan.
He has two rings without Bill Russell or Sam Jones, which is also two more rings that Jordan has without Pippen.
Now carry on:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz9HDvg_mp0

[Spurs m8]

Fvck its hilarious watching LeBarryBonds stans losing their shit...

Full damage control on the daily....its so weird.

There's no way these guys aren't either paid LePED shills or the lowest of the low basement dwellers...

There's no in between

[SATAN]

TheGoatest obliterating every hater in sight itt. :rockon:

[TheGoatest]

TheGoatest obliterating every hater in sight itt. :rockon:

Just enjoying the hell of pointing out the hypocrisy. :banana:
LMAO @ first bringing up a random-ass Dennis Johnson vs Allen Iverson scoring ability debate because LeBron smashed Jordan's playoff scoring total, but then having the audacity to claim that comparing John Havlicek's 8 rings to Jordan's 6 is somehow ridiculous (in favor of Jordan).

[theman93]

You asked "how many Finals MVPs does Robert Horry have?", thinking you had a mic-drop moment.
I provided you with a player with a Finals MVP, who also has two more rings than Jordan.
He has two rings without Bill Russell or Sam Jones, which is also two more rings that Jordan has without Pippen.
Now carry on:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz9HDvg_mp0

It was which is why you had to move the goal posts from Horry to Havlicek LOL

How many FMVP’s does Havlicek have?

[TheGoatest]

It was which is why you had to move the goal posts from Horry to Havlicek LOL

How many FMVP’s does Havlicek have?

Someone who randomly brought up a desperate Dennis Johnson vs Allen Iverson discussion out of nowhere in a LeBron vs Jordan discussion context talks about goal post moving.
Havlicek's 8 rings, 8/8 finals while winning a finals MVP completely shatters any ring-related argument you can bring up in a LeBron vs Jordan debate, unless you're simultaneously willing to admit that John Havlicek was a greater player than Jordan.

[Bronbron23]

TheGoatest obliterating every hater in sight itt. :rockon:

Yeah sure. His go to argument is a 7 game series lead by a 6'3 choker who's trash in half of the game. He trolls hard though i'll give him that:oldlol:

[expansionera]

Yeah sure. His go to argument is a 7 game series lead by a 6'3 choker who's trash in half of the game. He trolls hard though i'll give him that:oldlol:

Jordan never beat a player as good as Curry

[Airupthere]

Jordan never beat a player as good as Curry

Neither did lebron. It's not one on one. Plus, it was Kyrie that took the big balls shots.

[Bronbron23]

Jordan never beat a player as good as Curry

True shaq and magic aren't anywhere near the level curry is:facepalm

[theman93]

Someone who randomly brought up a desperate Dennis Johnson vs Allen Iverson discussion out of nowhere in a LeBron vs Jordan discussion context talks about goal post moving.
Havlicek's 8 rings, 8/8 finals while winning a finals MVP completely shatters any ring-related argument you can bring up in a LeBron vs Jordan debate, unless you're simultaneously willing to admit that John Havlicek was a greater player than Jordan.

If you had the brain cells to follow the context of the conversion maybe you would have understood. I'll break it down for you gently so you can follow.

expansionera made a longevity argument. If totaling more stats is the criteria for making one player better than the other, then you would have to conclude Dennis Johnson was the better playoff scorer than AI because he's scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs. But everyone knows that's not true. Why? Because Johnson played in 109 more playoff games than AI. If AI played in as many playoff games as Johnson he would have 5,346 points to Johnson's 3,116.

The same logic extends when you compare any player. For Lebron vs Jordan, Lebron has played in 87 more playoff games than Jordan. If Jordan played in as many playoff games as Lebron he would have 8,884 points to Lebron's 7,631. What's being made is a longevity argument. Say it with me: longevity.

You also created a strawman when you failed to project that my rebuttal would be a ring argument. Lmao. Because of your objective failure you had to move the goalposts from Horry being 7/7 because he has 0 FMVP's to Havlicek being 8/8 because he has....wait for it.....1 FMVP. LOL. In case you didn't know 6>1.

[Baller789]

If you had the brain cells to follow the context of the conversion maybe you would have understood. I'll break it down for you gently so you can follow.

expansionera made a longevity argument. If totaling more stats is the criteria for making one player better than the other, then you would have to conclude Dennis Johnson was the better playoff scorer than AI because he's scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs. But everyone knows that's not true. Why? Because Johnson played in 109 more playoff games than AI. If AI played in as many playoff games as Johnson he would have 5,346 points to Johnson's 3,116.

The same logic extends when you compare any player. For Lebron vs Jordan, Lebron has played in 87 more playoff games than Jordan. If Jordan played in as many playoff games as Lebron he would have 8,884 points to Lebron's 7,631. What's being made is a longevity argument. Say it with me: longevity.

You also created a strawman when you failed to project that my rebuttal would be a ring argument. Lmao. Because of your objective failure you had to move the goalposts from Horry being 7/7 because he has 0 FMVP's to Havlicek being 8/8 because he has....wait for it.....1 FMVP. LOL. In case you didn't know 6>1.

Shut it down. :applause:

[dankok8]

If you had the brain cells to follow the context of the conversion maybe you would have understood. I'll break it down for you gently so you can follow.

expansionera made a longevity argument. If totaling more stats is the criteria for making one player better than the other, then you would have to conclude Dennis Johnson was the better playoff scorer than AI because he's scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs. But everyone knows that's not true. Why? Because Johnson played in 109 more playoff games than AI. If AI played in as many playoff games as Johnson he would have 5,346 points to Johnson's 3,116.

The same logic extends when you compare any player. For Lebron vs Jordan, Lebron has played in 87 more playoff games than Jordan. If Jordan played in as many playoff games as Lebron he would have 8,884 points to Lebron's 7,631. What's being made is a longevity argument. Say it with me: longevity.

You also created a strawman when you failed to project that my rebuttal would be a ring argument. Lmao. Because of your objective failure you had to move the goalposts from Horry being 7/7 because he has 0 FMVP's to Havlicek being 8/8 because he has....wait for it.....1 FMVP. LOL. In case you didn't know 6>1.

Well said although I don't think that guy even makes straw man arguments. I don't think he understands what the original point was to begin with.

[TheGoatest]

If you had the brain cells to follow the context of the conversion maybe you would have understood. I'll break it down for you gently so you can follow.

expansionera made a longevity argument. If totaling more stats is the criteria for making one player better than the other, then you would have to conclude Dennis Johnson was the better playoff scorer than AI because he's scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs. But everyone knows that's not true. Why? Because Johnson played in 109 more playoff games than AI. If AI played in as many playoff games as Johnson he would have 5,346 points to Johnson's 3,116.

The same logic extends when you compare any player. For Lebron vs Jordan, Lebron has played in 87 more playoff games than Jordan. If Jordan played in as many playoff games as Lebron he would have 8,884 points to Lebron's 7,631. What's being made is a longevity argument. Say it with me: longevity.

You also created a strawman when you failed to project that my rebuttal would be a ring argument. Lmao. Because of your objective failure you had to move the goalposts from Horry being 7/7 because he has 0 FMVP's to Havlicek being 8/8 because he has....wait for it.....1 FMVP. LOL. In case you didn't know 6>1.

If you had any objectivity whatsoever you would admit that if we were comparing Jordan vs LeBron adjusted for eras fairly, then we would either need to ADD EVEN MORE playoff points onto LeBron's total, or subtract from Jordan's playoff point total. But no, you are a blind Jordan stan loyal to your Fuhrer and can't see that Jordan played in an era where he made the playoffs with a:

40-42 record
38-44 record
30-52 record

Whereas LeBron missed the playoffs with a 42-40 record. So Jordan's playoff total's deserve an asterisk because he was benefitting from playing in a "30-52 record = playoff team" era.

Not that ANY of this shit matters because if someone from the outside was looking at this conversation, they'd think that LeBron was ahead of Jordan by a couple of hundred of points or something and not 1500+ playoff points. He isn't only ahead, he is so far ahead that any discussion of era is completely irrelevant. The most Jordan ever scored in a playoff run is 759 points. You could stack not one but two of these playoff runs on top of Jordan's career playoff point total, and he would still be below LeBron. That is a fact. But nothing that some bullshit Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson deflection won't fix, huh?

[Baller789]

If you had any objectivity whatsoever you would admit that if we were comparing Jordan vs LeBron adjusted for eras fairly, then we would either need to ADD EVEN MORE playoff points onto LeBron's total, or subtract from Jordan's playoff point total. But no, you are a blind Jordan stan loyal to your Fuhrer and can't see that Jordan played in an era where he made the playoffs with a:

40-42 record
38-44 record
30-52 record

Whereas LeBron missed the playoffs with a 42-40 record. So Jordan's playoff total's deserve an asterisk because he was benefitting from playing in a "30-52 record = playoff team" era.

Not that ANY of this shit matters because if someone from the outside was looking at this conversation, they'd think that LeBron was ahead of Jordan by a couple of hundred of points or something and not 1500+ playoff points. He isn't only ahead, he is so far ahead that any discussion of era is completely irrelevant. The most Jordan ever scored in a playoff run is 759 points. You could stack not one but two of these playoff runs on top of Jordan's career playoff point total, and he would still be below LeBron. That is a fact. But nothing that some bullshit Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson deflection won't fix, huh?

Keep burying yourself in the longevity argument.
:lol

Keep it up. It's entertaining.

[TheGoatest]

Keep burying yourself in the longevity argument.
:lol

Keep it up. It's entertaining.

Yeah, LeBron is about to become another 25ish points on his chase of Kareem tonight. That IS entertaining.
Maybe he'll get to 40K by the time his career ends. That would be friggin HILARIOUS.
Longevity sure is funny. 50 years from now when people look at LeBron's name at the top of both playoff and regular season records, they will be laughing and saying "Ha ha".

[Baller789]

Yeah, LeBron is about to become another 25ish points on his chase of Kareem tonight. That IS entertaining.
Maybe he'll get to 40K by the time his career ends. That would be friggin HILARIOUS.
Longevity sure is funny. 50 years from now when people look at LeBron's name at the top of both playoff and regular season records, they will be laughing and saying "Ha ha".

Anything else outside of your longevity arguments?

[TheGoatest]

Anything else outside of your longevity arguments?

Yes, there are plenty of other arguments that you regularly ignore/dodge:

- Not being ball-and-chained to a teammate who did better without you on both occasions he played without you than you did on either of the two you did with him
- Crappy era where none of your "rivals" could win against Hakeem and a bunch of certified role players
- Assist averages
- Rebound averages
- 2 career playoff triple doubles and 0 career finals triple doubles
- Losing record in elimination games
- Lower ppg in game 7s, lower ppg in elimination games and lower ppg in closeout games

And many more, besides "weak argument" of longevity, the thing that is usually used to measure GOATness in every sport.

[Baller789]

Yes, there are plenty of other arguments that you regularly ignore/dodge:

- Not being ball-and-chained to a teammate who did better without you on both occasions he played without you than you did on either of the two you did with him
- Crappy era where none of your "rivals" could win against Hakeem and a bunch of certified role players
- Assist averages
- Rebound averages
- 2 career playoff triple doubles and 0 career finals triple doubles
- Losing record in elimination games
- Lower ppg in game 7s, lower ppg in elimination games and lower ppg in closeout games

And many more, besides "weak argument" of longevity, the thing that is usually used to measure GOATness in every sport.

You sure about those? Those arguments are pretty easy to destroy. But of course youre gonna be in denial so theres no point. Lol

[theman93]

If you had any objectivity whatsoever you would admit that if we were comparing Jordan vs LeBron adjusted for eras fairly, then we would either need to ADD EVEN MORE playoff points onto LeBron's total, or subtract from Jordan's playoff point total. But no, you are a blind Jordan stan loyal to your Fuhrer and can't see that Jordan played in an era where he made the playoffs with a:

40-42 record
38-44 record
30-52 record

Whereas LeBron missed the playoffs with a 42-40 record. So Jordan's playoff total's deserve an asterisk because he was benefitting from playing in a "30-52 record = playoff team" era.

:facepalm I thought you had 2 brain cells to understand the very basic argument, but I guess that was giving you too much credit.

You are talking totals. Say it with me: T-O-T-A-L-S.

When player X plays dozens of more games than player Y guess what will happen? Player X will accumulate higher totals. This is also known as longevity.


Not that ANY of this shit matters because if someone from the outside was looking at this conversation, they'd think that LeBron was ahead of Jordan by a couple of hundred of points or something and not 1500+ playoff points. He isn't only ahead, he is so far ahead that any discussion of era is completely irrelevant. The most Jordan ever scored in a playoff run is 759 points. You could stack not one but two of these playoff runs on top of Jordan's career playoff point total, and he would still be below LeBron. That is a fact. But nothing that some bullshit Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson deflection won't fix, huh?

Listen to me very closely this time retard. You are making a longevity argument.

You keep talking total points scored while completely ignoring total games played. You're being intellectually dishonest to push a narrative.

[Baller789]

:facepalm I thought you had 2 brain cells to understand the very basic argument, but I guess that was giving you too much credit.

You are talking totals. Say it with me: T-O-T-A-L-S.

When player X plays dozens of more games than player Y guess what will happen? Player X will accumulate higher totals. This is also known as longevity.



Listen to me very closely this time retard. You are making a longevity argument.

You keep talking total points scored while completely ignoring total games played. You're being intellectually dishonest to push a narrative.

Nah man just do what I did. Just ignore that deulusional fool.

[TheGoatest]

:facepalm I thought you had 2 brain cells to understand the very basic argument, but I guess that was giving you too much credit.

You are talking totals. Say it with me: T-O-T-A-L-S.

When player X plays dozens of more games than player Y guess what will happen? Player X will accumulate higher totals. This is also known as longevity.



Listen to me very closely this time retard. You are making a longevity argument.

You keep talking total points scored while completely ignoring total games played. You're being intellectually dishonest to push a narrative.

I don't know if you're this blatantly stupid or what, but it sounds you're trying to win this argument on me automatically adding a bunch of total points onto Jordan's playoff point total despite him not having the longevity to play the necessary games in order to obtain those totals.

You are aware that we're discussing what actually happened, and not discussing imaginary scenarios, right? And what actually happened is that LeBron has over 1500 more points than Jordan.

And your argument is even more stupid and hypocritical considering that when I brought up Bill Walton earlier as a response to your random Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson mention, you casually brushed Walton off as an extreme case of lack of longevity. Whereas LeBron's extreme longevity casually gets brushed off in favor of averages, that are boosted by Jordan's fewer games played/lack of longevity? No flip-flopping here, folks.

[kawhileonard2]

No one will ever have 6 Finals MVP's, 5 league mvp's and 6 titles for a total of 17 points again. Russell was closest with 16 points.

[kawhileonard2]

If you had any objectivity whatsoever you would admit that if we were comparing Jordan vs LeBron adjusted for eras fairly, then we would either need to ADD EVEN MORE playoff points onto LeBron's total, or subtract from Jordan's playoff point total. But no, you are a blind Jordan stan loyal to your Fuhrer and can't see that Jordan played in an era where he made the playoffs with a:

40-42 record
38-44 record
30-52 record

Whereas LeBron missed the playoffs with a 42-40 record. So Jordan's playoff total's deserve an asterisk because he was benefitting from playing in a "30-52 record = playoff team" era.

Not that ANY of this shit matters because if someone from the outside was looking at this conversation, they'd think that LeBron was ahead of Jordan by a couple of hundred of points or something and not 1500+ playoff points. He isn't only ahead, he is so far ahead that any discussion of era is completely irrelevant. The most Jordan ever scored in a playoff run is 759 points. You could stack not one but two of these playoff runs on top of Jordan's career playoff point total, and he would still be below LeBron. That is a fact. But nothing that some bullshit Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson deflection won't fix, huh?

What about this?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher



Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED



Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

[Baller789]

I don't know if you're this blatantly stupid or what, but it sounds you're trying to win this argument on me automatically adding a bunch of total points onto Jordan's playoff point total despite him not having the longevity to play the necessary games in order to obtain those totals.

You are aware that we're discussing what actually happened, and not discussing imaginary scenarios, right? And what actually happened is that LeBron has over 1500 more points than Jordan.

And your argument is even more stupid and hypocritical considering that when I brought up Bill Walton earlier as a response to your random Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson mention, you casually brushed Walton off as an extreme case of lack of longevity. Whereas LeBron's extreme longevity casually gets brushed off in favor of averages, that are boosted by Jordan's fewer games played/lack of longevity? No flip-flopping here, folks.
Still longevity.
This guy's dense AF

:lol

[TheGoatest]

Still longevity.
This guy's dense AF

:lol

Got these Jordan stans reduced to attempting to win arguments on "ifs" and "would'ves" :rockon:

[TheCorporation]

Still longevity.
This guy's dense AF

:lol

13 Playoffs

LeBron = 6,000 pts
Jordan = 5,900 pts

Next :hammertime:

[Baller789]

Got these Jordan stans reduced to attempting to win arguments on "ifs" and "would'ves" :rockon:


13 Playoffs

LeBron = 6,000 pts
Jordan = 5,900 pts

Next :hammertime:

Still longevity...

You guys are retardedly too easy.

:lol

[BarberSchool]

If you meant “will we ever” as in “we the people of earth at any point in the future”, then yes we will.

If you meant “will we ever” as in “we few alive today on inside hoops, before we perish”, then a resounding NO.

[TheGoatest]

Still longevity...

You guys are retardedly too easy.

:lol

He pointed out that LeBron scored 6911 over his first 13 playoff runs. Jordan scored 5987 points over his 13 career playoff runs.
Your attempt at mocking longevity just backfired, even if we retract a couple of LeBron's playoff runs to match your precious Jordan's longevity (or the lack of it) and unfairly match the amount of playoff runs he had throughout his career.

[Baller789]

He pointed out that LeBron scored 6911 over his first 13 playoff runs. Jordan scored 5987 points over his 13 career playoff runs.
Your attempt at mocking longevity just backfired, even if we retract a couple of LeBron's playoff runs to match your precious Jordan's longevity (or the lack of it) and unfairly match the amount of playoff runs he had throughout his career.

https://i.ibb.co/wBymCsT/images-1.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[TheGoatest]

https://i.ibb.co/wBymCsT/images-1.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Man, STFU. You mean "Got OWNED = Didn't read".
You and fellow stans tried to put a negative spin on LeBron's playoffs points and got destroyed.
The combination of LeBron's playoff totals AND playoff averages is simply more impressive than the combination of Jordan's playoff totals and playoff averages.

Jordan's career playoff scoring average: 33.45 ppg
LeBron's career playoff scoring average: 28.69 ppg
= Jordan's career playoff scoring average is 14.23% higher than LeBron's career playoff scoring average

LeBron's career playoff scoring total: 7631
Jordan's career playoff scoring total: 5987
= LeBron's career playoff point total is 21.54% higher than Jordan's career playoff point total

And we're only talking about the averages/totals of points, which were Jordan's specialty. We're not even including rebounds or assists where LeBron completely destroys Jordan, whether it's totals or averages.

[Bawkish]

13 Playoffs

LeBron = 6,000 pts
Jordan = 5,900 pts

Next :hammertime:

MJ played in best of 5 1st round series while sweeping opponents most of the time. Bron played all best of 7s format with most stretch to 6 games

[Baller789]

Man, STFU. You mean "Got OWNED = Didn't read".
You and fellow stans tried to put a negative spin on LeBron's playoffs points and got destroyed.
The combination of LeBron's playoff totals AND playoff averages is simply more impressive than the combination of Jordan's playoff totals and playoff averages.

Jordan's career playoff scoring average: 33.45 ppg
LeBron's career playoff scoring average: 28.69 ppg
= Jordan's career playoff scoring average is 14.23% higher than LeBron's career playoff scoring average

LeBron's career playoff scoring total: 7631
Jordan's career playoff scoring total: 5987
= LeBron's career playoff point total is 21.54% higher than Jordan's career playoff point total

And we're only talking about the averages/totals of points, which were Jordan's specialty. We're not even including rebounds or assists where LeBron completely destroys Jordan, whether it's totals or averages.

https://i.ibb.co/Gdsj29s/403.gif (https://ibb.co/Gdsj29s)

[theman93]

13 Playoffs

LeBron = 6,000 pts
Jordan = 5,900 pts

Next :hammertime:

13 Playoffs games played

Lebron = 239
Jordan = 179

Keep on with your no context :lol

[theman93]

I don't know if you're this blatantly stupid or what, but it sounds you're trying to win this argument on me automatically adding a bunch of total points onto Jordan's playoff point total despite him not having the longevity to play the necessary games in order to obtain those totals.

It only sounds like that to you because you're too dense to understand the basic concept that more games played = higher totals.



You are aware that we're discussing what actually happened, and not discussing imaginary scenarios, right? And what actually happened is that LeBron has over 1500 more points than Jordan.

Yes that has been the point the entire time. What actually happened is that Lebron has played 266 playoff games to Jordan's 179. What actually happened is Jordan averaged 33.4 ppg to Lebron's 28.7. What actually happened is that Lebron totals more points than Jordan because he's played in 87 more playoff games.


And your argument is even more stupid and hypocritical considering that when I brought up Bill Walton earlier as a response to your random Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson mention, you casually brushed Walton off as an extreme case of lack of longevity. Whereas LeBron's extreme longevity casually gets brushed off in favor of averages, that are boosted by Jordan's fewer games played/lack of longevity? No flip-flopping here, folks.

When did you bring up Bill Walton to me? You're confusing me with dankok8 you retard :lol

I went back to read your argument and it's a terrible one of course. Tell me you don't understand sample sizes without telling me you don't understand sample sizes :lol

[theman93]

He pointed out that LeBron scored 6911 over his first 13 playoff runs. Jordan scored 5987 points over his 13 career playoff runs.
Your attempt at mocking longevity just backfired, even if we retract a couple of LeBron's playoff runs to match your precious Jordan's longevity (or the lack of it) and unfairly match the amount of playoff runs he had throughout his career.

How many more games did Lebron play in than Jordan during their first 13 playoff runs?

239 - 179 = ?

Break out your calculator, I know you'll need it :roll:

[Baller789]

How many more games did Lebron play in than Jordan during their first 13 playoff runs?

239 - 179 = ?

Break out your calculator, I know you'll need it :roll:

He'll just revert to calling you a Jordan homer or fallback to longevity stats.

The education system has failed him. :lol

[TheGoatest]

It only sounds like that to you because you're too dense to understand the basic concept that more games played = higher totals.

No, you're the moron who keeps doubling down that "more games played = higher totals" is somehow a bad thing and counts against LeBron.

You're also the moron who somehow expects me to automatically grant Michael Jordan imaginary points he didn't score onto his playoff point total for games he didn't play due to not winning first round, series and playoffs he didn't make because he retired. His point total is already inflated as is compared to LeBron's due to his 40, 38 and 30 win season playoff appearances whereas LeBron missed a playoffs with 42 wins.


Yes that has been the point the entire time. What actually happened is that Lebron has played 266 playoff games to Jordan's 179. What actually happened is Jordan averaged 33.4 ppg to Lebron's 28.7. What actually happened is that Lebron totals more points than Jordan because he's played in 87 more playoff games.

No, what actually happened is LeBron winning his first round playoff series and Jordan losing his first rounds, which led to LeBron playing more games and scoring more points. All this while he missed a playoffs with 42 wins whereas Jordan played in an era where he made the playoffs on 40, 38 and 30 win teams.


When did you bring up Bill Walton to me? You're confusing me with dankok8 you retard :lol

I went back to read your argument and it's a terrible one of course. Tell me you don't understand sample sizes without telling me you don't understand sample sizes :lol

You're the retard that randomly brought up a random-ass Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson comparison convinced that you had some "Got'em!" mic-drop moment.
As if you can't do the same with ppg averages: Donovan Mitchell being a better playoff scorer than Kareem, Bob Love being better than Wilt Chamberlain, and countless other examples.

But let me get this straight: Bill Walton's sample size shouldn't count because it's too small. LeBron's sample size is unfair because he played more games. The only one who has a Mama Bear sample size that is just right and completely fair to judge upon is Michael Jordan?

[ELITEpower23]

13 Playoffs

LeBron = 6,000 pts
Jordan = 5,900 pts

Next :hammertime:

Baller789 got wrekt :oldlol: What's new

[ELITEpower23]

13 Playoffs games played

Lebron = 239
Jordan = 179

Keep on with your no context :lol

Pro tip: Dont lose in the 1st round

[TheGoatest]

Pro tip: Dont lose in the 1st round

A concept foreign to Jordan until this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll:

[ELITEpower23]

A concept foreign to Jordan until this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll:

:oldlol::roll::roll:

[Baller789]

A concept foreign to Jordan until this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll:

https://i.ibb.co/1R11y8m/images.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Was that supposed to be an insult?
Low IQ strawman arguments :roll:

[theman93]

No, you're the moron who keeps doubling down that "more games played = higher totals" is somehow a bad thing and counts against LeBron.
I never said it was a bad thing. I said it's a longevity thing. Your inability to grasp an argument is downright hilarious :lol


You're also the moron who somehow expects me to automatically grant Michael Jordan imaginary points he didn't score onto his playoff point total for games he didn't play due to not winning first round, series and playoffs he didn't make because he retired. His point total is already inflated as is compared to LeBron's due to his 40, 38 and 30 win season playoff appearances whereas LeBron missed a playoffs with 42 wins.

No, what actually happened is LeBron winning his first round playoff series and Jordan losing his first rounds, which led to LeBron playing more games and scoring more points. All this while he missed a playoffs with 42 wins whereas Jordan played in an era where he made the playoffs on 40, 38 and 30 win teams.
Oh so that's the only reason? And playing more years to make more playoffs, taking longer to dispose of opponents, and playing in an era where 1st round series are best of 7, not 5, has nothing to do with it? :lol


You're the retard that randomly brought up a random-ass Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson comparison convinced that you had some "Got'em!" mic-drop moment.
As if you can't do the same with ppg averages: Donovan Mitchell being a better playoff scorer than Kareem, Bob Love being better than Wilt Chamberlain, and countless other examples.
Considering you can't stop bringing it up proves I indeed dropped the mic on your sorry longevity argument. Keep talking about it I love being reminded how easy it was to bury you 6 ft deep.

As for the Mitchell vs Kareem and Love vs Chamberlain comparison you are taking players who only made/have made the playoffs in their prime (and before it in Mitchell's case) and comparing them to players who made the playoffs before their prime, during their prime, and after their prime. It's an illogical comparison because you're taking a data set at it's plateau and comparing it to another data set that plateau's and valley's.


But let me get this straight: Bill Walton's sample size shouldn't count because it's too small. LeBron's sample size is unfair because he played more games. The only one who has a Mama Bear sample size that is just right and completely fair to judge upon is Michael Jordan?
See above.

Compare players who we have data on pre-prime, prime, and post-prime. Then we can make a logical comparison using averages, like Jordan vs Lebron.

33.4>28.7

[Baller789]

Baller789 got wrekt :oldlol: What's new

https://i.ibb.co/wgBfwZF/images-2.jpg (https://ibb.co/T2YsbDx)

[theman93]

He'll just revert to calling you a Jordan homer or fallback to longevity stats.

The education system has failed him. :lol

Yep :lol

[TheGoatest]

I never said it was a bad thing. I said it's a longevity thing. Your inability to grasp an argument is downright hilarious :lol
You clearly mocked the importance of longevity in comparison to averages while you are arguing in favor of Jordan. Guess what? Longevity is valued more than averages and primes in sports. Not that LeBron doesn't have better playoff averages as well, it's only his ppg that is lower.

Oh so that's the only reason? And playing more years to make more playoffs, taking longer to dispose of opponents, and playing in an era where 1st round series are best of 7, not 5, has nothing to do with it? :lol
LMAO, I suppose it's LeBron's fault for being good enough to be considered a dead-certain future #1 pick at the age of 15-16, whereas Jordan wasn't considered good enough to be picked over Sam Bowie at the age of 21, which resulted in LeBron entering the league earlier to play more playoff games throughout his career?
Also, it's LeBron's fault for choosing not to retire at the age of 30 despite being perfectly healthy, so that he could be compared more "fairly" with Jordan later on?
And no, the handful of games a best of 7 first round would've given Jordan still isn't as great as the amount of games LeBron would've gotten in 3 extra career playoff runs had he been able to reach the playoffs with a 30-52 record like Jordan did.


As for the Mitchell vs Kareem and Love vs Chamberlain comparison you are taking players who only made/have made the playoffs in their prime (and before it in Mitchell's case) and comparing them to players who made the playoffs before their prime, during their prime, and after their prime. It's an illogical comparison because you're taking a data set at it's plateau and comparing it to another data set that plateau's and valley's.

See above.

Compare players who we have data on pre-prime, prime, and post-prime. Then we can make a logical comparison using averages, like Jordan vs Lebron.

I've compared their whatever their playoff averages were in their careers, the same way that Jordan's averages don't include playoffs at the age of 21 and 36 like LeBron's do.
Who gets to choose what prime is? Let me guess? You do, based on whichever criteria makes Jordan look best.
Like if I pointed out that LeBron's playoff ppg at the age of 32-33 is 33.5 and Jordan's playoff ppg at the age of 32-33 is 31.0, that wouldn't count and we would need to include a bunch of other seasons that make Jordan look better.
And by the way, Alex English playoff career spanned the exact same years as Wilt Chamberlain's. Yet English's career playoff ppg is 2 ppg higher than Wilt's. Is your dumb ass prepared to admit that Alex English was a better playoff scorer than Wilt, or will you go to the lab again and customize the criteria further?


33.4>28.7

I've already pointed out that 33.4 > 28.7 is only higher with a difference of only 14.23%.
On the other hand the difference between 7631 and 5987 is 21.54%, so the discrepancy between their playoff ppg averages and playoff point totals is clearly greater in LeBron's favor. In other words LeBron's career playoff ppg > Jordan's career playoff point totals, and you lose no matter how we compare the difference between their totals and averages, whether it's 100% mathematically, era-wise (playoff appearances with 40, 38 and 30 win seasons) or otherwise.

[Baller789]

The way theGoatest argues reminds me of the tiktoker who says Rome didn't exist.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGMYu37fskE

:lol

[Axe]

If you had the brain cells to follow the context of the conversion maybe you would have understood. I'll break it down for you gently so you can follow.

expansionera made a longevity argument. If totaling more stats is the criteria for making one player better than the other, then you would have to conclude Dennis Johnson was the better playoff scorer than AI because he's scored over 1,000 more points in the playoffs. But everyone knows that's not true. Why? Because Johnson played in 109 more playoff games than AI. If AI played in as many playoff games as Johnson he would have 5,346 points to Johnson's 3,116.

The same logic extends when you compare any player. For Lebron vs Jordan, Lebron has played in 87 more playoff games than Jordan. If Jordan played in as many playoff games as Lebron he would have 8,884 points to Lebron's 7,631. What's being made is a longevity argument. Say it with me: longevity.

You also created a strawman when you failed to project that my rebuttal would be a ring argument. Lmao. Because of your objective failure you had to move the goalposts from Horry being 7/7 because he has 0 FMVP's to Havlicek being 8/8 because he has....wait for it.....1 FMVP. LOL. In case you didn't know 6>1.
Unfortunately, he doesn't have enough brain cells to move on from posting about kong's nemesis coach. And that expansionera just sounds like his dup.

[Gohan]

Pro tip: Dont lose in the 1st round

Nice tip but he was just stating facts, you gotta except that.

[TheGoatest]

The way theGoatest argues reminds me of the tiktoker who says Rome didn't exist.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGMYu37fskE

:lol

How is that "I'm not really a Jordan stan" split personality working out for you?
Is he with us right now?

[Baller789]

How is that "I'm not really a Jordan stan" split personality working out for you?
Is he with us right now?

If you look closely I do give Lebron his props. But it has to be factual.

So no I'm not a Jordan stan.

You on the other hand... :roll:

[Bawkish]

Yeah longevity stas is the most important category in whatever

Karl Malone>>>>>>>>>Lebron

Fukk all other arguments. Dont bring up averages because TOTALS RULESSSSS

[TheGoatest]

If you look closely I do give Lebron his props. But it has to be factual.

So no I'm not a Jordan stan.

You on the other hand... :roll:

Not only are you a Jordan stan, but you side with stances that blatantly contradict your agenda (PED vs steroid), as long as they bash LeBron.

[TheGoatest]

Yeah longevity stas is the most important category in whatever

Karl Malone>>>>>>>>>Lebron

Fukk all other arguments. Dont bring up averages because TOTALS RULESSSSS

Karl Malone has more playoff points than LeBron?

You must be some kind of crazy person.

I already pointed out the mathematical fact that the differential between Jordan's and LeBron's averages is clearly not as great as the difference between their totals.

[ELITEpower23]

Jordan had a career savior

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll:

[Bawkish]

Karl Malone has more playoff points than LeBron?

You must be some kind of crazy person.

I already pointed out the mathematical fact that the differential between Jordan's and LeBron's averages is clearly not as great as the difference between their totals.

Yeah? What about the total mathematical percentage between MJs rings and Bron's rings?

[theman93]

You clearly mocked the importance of longevity in comparison to averages while you are arguing in favor of Jordan. Guess what? Longevity is valued more than averages and primes in sports. Not that LeBron doesn't have better playoff averages as well, it's only his ppg that is lower.
I didn't mock it, I pointed out a fact. You're just getting emotional about it LOL.

And no, not only is Lebron's ppg lower, but so are his steals/gm and offensive rebounds/gm while also being tied in blocks/gm even though Lebron is a 6'8 250 lb brute. How is a guard grabbing more offensive boards and tying him in blocks?


LMAO, I suppose it's LeBron's fault for being good enough to be considered a dead-certain future #1 pick at the age of 15-16, whereas Jordan wasn't considered good enough to be picked over Sam Bowie at the age of 21, which resulted in LeBron entering the league earlier to play more playoff games throughout his career?
Also, it's LeBron's fault for choosing not to retire at the age of 30 despite being perfectly healthy, so that he could be compared more "fairly" with Jordan later on?
And no, the handful of games a best of 7 first round would've given Jordan still isn't as great as the amount of games LeBron would've gotten in 3 extra career playoff runs had he been able to reach the playoffs with a 30-52 record like Jordan did.
I'm not faulting Lebron. Remember, try not to get emotional. I know it's hard for you.

I'm pointing out the multitude of factors that led to Lebron playing more games. Lebron drafted earlier adds to that factor. Playing at age 30 adds to that factor. First round rule changes add to that factor. Guess what all those factors are? Longevity. Say it again: Longevity.


I've compared their whatever their playoff averages were in their careers, the same way that Jordan's averages don't include playoffs at the age of 21 and 36 like LeBron's do.
As have I.


Who gets to choose what prime is? Let me guess? You do, based on whichever criteria makes Jordan look best.
Like if I pointed out that LeBron's playoff ppg at the age of 32-33 is 33.5 and Jordan's playoff ppg at the age of 32-33 is 31.0, that wouldn't count and we would need to include a bunch of other seasons that make Jordan look better.
And by the way, Alex English playoff career spanned the exact same years as Wilt Chamberlain's. Yet English's career playoff ppg is 2 ppg higher than Wilt's. Is your dumb ass prepared to admit that Alex English was a better playoff scorer than Wilt, or will you go to the lab again and customize the criteria further?
Who says to compare one players peak to the next you have to compare them at the same age? Players peak at different points in their careers. The point being is that to make a fair comparison you must compare similar data sets. Not a data set that only includes one player's plateau and another player's plateau and valley.

As for English vs Wilt, English was the better scorer over the arc of his playoff career (see higher ppg) but Wilt was obviously the superior scorer in his prime (higher ppg at his peak).

Now compare Jordan vs Lebron and Jordan was the better scorer over the arc of his playoff career (see higher ppg) AND he was obviously the superior scorer in his prime (higher ppg at his peak).


I've already pointed out that 33.4 > 28.7 is only higher with a difference of only 14.23%.
On the other hand the difference between 7631 and 5987 is 21.54%, so the discrepancy between their playoff ppg averages and playoff point totals is clearly greater in LeBron's favor. In other words LeBron's career playoff ppg > Jordan's career playoff point totals, and you lose no matter how we compare the difference between their totals and averages, whether it's 100% mathematically, era-wise (playoff appearances with 40, 38 and 30 win seasons) or otherwise.
Your discrepancy is based off a faulty foundation that you're too blind to see. Lebron's first 179 playoff games he totaled 5,042 points. Jordan's 179 playoff games he totaled 5,987 points. How come in 179 games Lebron scored 945 less points?

And lol. Using greater than/less than when comparing an average to a total. :roll: :roll: You truly are a retard.

[outofstomach]

I didn't mock it, I pointed out a fact. You're just getting emotional about it LOL.

And no, not only is Lebron's ppg lower, but so are his steals/gm and offensive rebounds/gm while also being tied in blocks/gm even though Lebron is a 6'8 250 lb brute. How is a guard grabbing more offensive boards and tying him in blocks?


I'm not faulting Lebron. Remember, try not to get emotional. I know it's hard for you.

I'm pointing out the multitude of factors that led to Lebron playing more games. Lebron drafted earlier adds to that factor. Playing at age 30 adds to that factor. First round rule changes add to that factor. Guess what all those factors are? Longevity. Say it again: Longevity.


As have I.


Who says to compare one players peak to the next you have to compare them at the same age? Players peak at different points in their careers. The point being is that to make a fair comparison you must compare similar data sets. Not a data set that only includes one player's plateau and another player's plateau and valley.

As for English vs Wilt, English was the better scorer over the arc of his playoff career (see higher ppg) but Wilt was obviously the superior scorer in his prime (higher ppg at his peak).

Now compare Jordan vs Lebron and Jordan was the better scorer over the arc of his playoff career (see higher ppg) AND he was obviously the superior scorer in his prime (higher ppg at his peak).


Your discrepancy is based off a faulty foundation that you're too blind to see. Lebron's first 179 playoff games he totaled 5,042 points. Jordan's 179 playoff games he totaled 5,987 points. How come in 179 games Lebron scored 945 less points?

And lol. Using greater than/less than when comparing an average to a total. :roll: :roll: You truly are a retard.it’s actually over :lol thegreatest is a low IQ troll and didn’t even deserve all of this effort but shit :applause:

[TheGoatest]

I didn't mock it, I pointed out a fact. You're just getting emotional about it LOL.

You were spelling it "l-o-n-g-e-v-i-t-y" and "t-o-t-a-l-s" and shit, and I'm the one getting emotional? lol


And no, not only is Lebron's ppg lower, but so are his steals/gm and offensive rebounds/gm while also being tied in blocks/gm even though Lebron is a 6'8 250 lb brute. How is a guard grabbing more offensive boards and tying him in blocks?

I don't know, how is a forward, who has often played power forward, averaging more assists than a guard??
And most importantly, how is a player A who has averaged 4.4 more shots per game over his playoff career than player B converting those 4.4 FGAs, not to mention 1 extra FTA on top of those 4.4 FGAs, into averaging only 4.7 more PPG than player B? That is some major accomplishment right there. :lol


I'm not faulting Lebron. Remember, try not to get emotional. I know it's hard for you.

I'm pointing out the multitude of factors that led to Lebron playing more games. Lebron drafted earlier adds to that factor. Playing at age 30 adds to that factor. First round rule changes add to that factor. Guess what all those factors are? Longevity. Say it again: Longevity.

Yeah, right. You're not faulting LeBron, but are implying it is somehow "unfair" to Jordan that LeBron played more playoff series simply because he was recognized as a better player at an earlier age. Again, is it LeBron's fault that he was recognized as being better than Jordan at an earlier age so that he was drafted earlier?
Hey genius, here's a newsflash for you: Players are evaluated based on what actually happened. If Player A is good enough to get drafted at a higher pick at an earlier age than Player B, then that counts as a plus in favor of Player A, and not as some sort of automatic "would've" adjustment in favor of Player B. If a player is about to have an all-time career, but gets injured and that career is tragically cut short, then their place in the all-time rankings is not adjusted on hypothetical "would'ves" had they not gotten injured, but what that player accomplished prior to getting injured. And if a player retires of his own choice and leaves a gap in his career like Jordan, that gap is not filled by imaginary scenarios and imaginary points scored in the playoffs so that salty stans of that player can match him up better with a player who ended up scoring way more playoff points than him.


As have I.

No, you haven't. I've compared Wilt Chamberlain's and Bob Love's playoff averages over their entire careers, for better or worse how their careers, both of which are long gone, turned out to be. You then proceeded to dissect their careers and say how it's unfair in favor of one of the two.


Who says to compare one players peak to the next you have to compare them at the same age? Players peak at different points in their careers. The point being is that to make a fair comparison you must compare similar data sets. Not a data set that only includes one player's plateau and another player's plateau and valley.

As for English vs Wilt, English was the better scorer over the arc of his playoff career (see higher ppg) but Wilt was obviously the superior scorer in his prime (higher ppg at his peak).

Now compare Jordan vs Lebron and Jordan was the better scorer over the arc of his playoff career (see higher ppg) AND he was obviously the superior scorer in his prime (higher ppg at his peak).

Who says that we should adjust a player's longer career and greater longevity and downscale it so that it fits that of another player who didn't play as long and whose longevity wasn't as great - YOU do! I am doing the fairest comparison possible: Comparing their entire careers. And they show that LeBron has a higher point total, Jordan has the higher ppg average, but that LeBron's ppg average is more impressive in relation to Jordan's point total.

And that Wilt-English part is truly some of the dumbest shit written on this forum, and I don't even like Wilt. I'm sure that your fellow Jordan stans and alts will still back up this idiotic statement in the name of the greater good - bashing LeBron.


Your discrepancy is based off a faulty foundation that you're too blind to see. Lebron's first 179 playoff games he totaled 5,042 points. Jordan's 179 playoff games he totaled 5,987 points. How come in 179 games Lebron scored 945 less points?

And lol. Using greater than/less than when comparing an average to a total. :roll: :roll: You truly are a retard.
LMAO, you're too blind to check all your angles so that you don't end up looking like a moron in your pursuit of Jordan stanning.
"First playoff games played", huh? Okay, let's look at their first playoff games. How come LeBron averaged 35.7 ppg in his first playoff series whereas Jordan averaged only 29.3 ppg in his, even though LeBron was 21 and Jordan 22? Let me guess? We should look at their "first playoff games", but not THAT first. lol
You're just mad that your arguments got exposed for being as hollowed as they are, and that it's mathematically proveable that the combination of LeBron's playoff point total and playoff career ppg is more impressive than the combination of Jordan's playoff point total and playoff career ppg.

[Baller789]

Not only are you a Jordan stan, but you side with stances that blatantly contradict your agenda (PED vs steroid), as long as they bash LeBron.

Because in your puny brain:

Anyone who says anything bad against PEDron is automatically a Jordanstan. What else could it be right?

:yaohappy:

[Baller789]

You were spelling it "l-o-n-g-e-v-i-t-y" and "t-o-t-a-l-s" and shit, and I'm the one getting emotional? lol



I don't know, how is a forward, who has often played power forward, averaging more assists than a guard??
And most importantly, how is a player A who has averaged 4.4 more shots per game over his playoff career than player B converting those 4.4 FGAs, not to mention 1 extra FTA on top of those 4.4 FGAs, into averaging only 4.7 more PPG than player B? That is some major accomplishment right there. :lol



Yeah, right. You're not faulting LeBron, but are implying it is somehow "unfair" to Jordan that LeBron played more playoff series simply because he was recognized as a better player at an earlier age. Again, is it LeBron's fault that he was recognized as being better than Jordan at an earlier age so that he was drafted earlier?
Hey genius, here's a newsflash for you: Players are evaluated based on what actually happened. If Player A is good enough to get drafted at a higher pick at an earlier age than Player B, then that counts as a plus in favor of Player A, and not as some sort of automatic "would've" adjustment in favor of Player B. If a player is about to have an all-time career, but gets injured and that career is tragically cut short, then their place in the all-time rankings is not adjusted on hypothetical "would'ves" had they not gotten injured, but what that player accomplished prior to getting injured. And if a player retires of his own choice and leaves a gap in his career like Jordan, that gap is not filled by imaginary scenarios and imaginary points scored in the playoffs so that salty stans of that player can match him up better with a player who ended up scoring way more playoff points than him.



No, you haven't. I've compared Wilt Chamberlain's and Bob Love's playoff averages over their entire careers, for better or worse how their careers, both of which are long gone, turned out to be. You then proceeded to dissect their careers and say how it's unfair in favor of one of the two.



Who says that we should adjust a player's longer career and greater longevity and downscale it so that it fits that of another player who didn't play as long and whose longevity wasn't as great - YOU do! I am doing the fairest comparison possible: Comparing their entire careers. And they show that LeBron has a higher point total, Jordan has the higher ppg average, but that LeBron's ppg average is more impressive in relation to Jordan's point total.

And that Wilt-English part is truly some of the dumbest shit written on this forum, and I don't even like Wilt. I'm sure that your fellow Jordan stans and alts will still back up this idiotic statement in the name of the greater good - bashing LeBron.


LMAO, you're too blind to check all your angles so that you don't end up looking like a moron in your pursuit of Jordan stanning.
"First playoff games played", huh? Okay, let's look at their first playoff games. How come LeBron averaged 35.7 ppg in his first playoff series whereas Jordan averaged only 29.3 ppg in his, even though LeBron was 21 and Jordan 22? Let me guess? We should look at their "first playoff games", but not THAT first. lol
You're just mad that your arguments got exposed for being as hollowed as they are, and that it's mathematically proveable that the combination of LeBron's playoff point total and playoff career ppg is more impressive than the combination of Jordan's playoff point total and playoff career ppg.

TheGoatest arguing be like:

https://i.ibb.co/bJF10KC/images-3.jpg (https://ibb.co/C26BcHY)

[TheGoatest]

Because in your puny brain:

Anyone who says anything bad against PEDron is automatically a Jordanstan. What else could it be right?

:yaohappy:

I don't know, siding with an anti-LeBron agenda, even when it blatantly contradicts your own initial anti-LeBron agenda.
Siding with a pro-Jordan agenda 100 times out of 100, even when it can be proven wrong as in this thread.
Maybe that's what it is. :lol

[TheGoatest]

TheGoatest arguing be like:

https://i.ibb.co/bJF10KC/images-3.jpg (https://ibb.co/C26BcHY)


Baller789 Jordan stanning be like:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8FtQxZcXcE

[Baller789]

I don't know, siding with an anti-LeBron agenda, even when it blatantly contradicts your own initial anti-LeBron agenda.
Siding with a pro-Jordan agenda 100 times out of 100, even when it can be proven wrong as in this thread.
Maybe that's what it is. :lol

Seeing you call posters who disagree with you Jordan stans left and right is hilarious AF.

One of those posters hates my guts.

Jordan stan indeed.

:roll:

[TheGoatest]

Seeing you call posters who disagree with you Jordan stans left and right is hilarious AF.
Which one of those posters hates my guts.

Jordan stan indeed.

:roll:

What do you mean which one of them hates you?
Jordan stans obviously don't hate fellow Jordan stans like yourself. That is, if I give you the benefit of the doubt that they're not your alts.
Even if their agendas contradict and one of you baselessly claims that LeBron took "PEDs" while the other one claims he took steroid, Jordan stans will still stick together because both of these contradicting agendas are about harming LeBron.

[Baller789]

What do you mean which one of them hates you?
Jordan stans obviously don't hate fellow Jordan stans like yourself. That is, if I give you the benefit of the doubt that they're not your alts.
Even if their agendas contradict and one of you baselessly claims that LeBron took "PEDs" while the other one claims he took steroid, Jordan stans will still stick together because both of these contradicting agendas are about harming LeBron.

You have no idea do you? :roll:

https://i.ibb.co/d0hSyD5/images-4.jpg (https://ibb.co/ccmPdQr)

[TheGoatest]

You have no idea do you? :roll:

https://i.ibb.co/d0hSyD5/images-4.jpg (https://ibb.co/ccmPdQr)


As usual, instead of trying to prove that what I wrote was wrong, regress into your usual "Didn't read" bullshit.

[Baller789]

As usual, instead of trying to prove that what I wrote was wrong, regress into your usual "Didn't read" bullshit.

Sorry dude, I couldn't understand you with Kong's banana buried deep in your throat.

https://i.ibb.co/FbKJ4N5/images-3.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Axe]

it’s actually over :lol thegreatest is a low IQ troll and didn’t even deserve all of this effort but shit :applause:
What's even more funny is that he's also the very same guy who believes and values useless preseason odds too much because he wants to believe that the 2012 western champions were a real superteam even if they haven't made the finals again after that year. In a recent thread he believes that the 2020 miami heat who made the finals in the disney bubble last year were formidable too because of the same thing, that the preseason odds did predict that they would come out of the east. :oldlol:

[TheGoatest]

What's even more funny is that he's also the very same guy who believes and values useless preseason odds too much because he wants to believe that the 2012 western champions were a real superteam even if they haven't made the finals again after that year. In a recent thread he believes that the 2020 miami heat who made the finals in the disney bubble last year were formidable too because of the same thing, that the preseason odds did predict that they would come out of the east. :oldlol:

I think you have me confused with the guy I was arguing against, you moron. :oldlol:
I was pointing out the NBA analysts' as well as Vegas' picks of Thunder right before the finals, not some bullshit preseason odds that don't take into account all the factors/injuries that might happen throughout the season.

And no shit they didn't make the finals again after letting go of James Harden.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/77/34/9e/77349e66e5e38da437add81c82bf3226.jpg

[TheGoatest]

Sorry dude, I couldn't understand you with Kong's banana buried deep in your throat.

https://i.ibb.co/FbKJ4N5/images-3.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

You seem to be understanding fellow Jordan stans/alts perfectly well though, even though they have Jordan's ballsaq buried in their mouths, and you yourself have his Madonna-rejected-in-favor-of-Pippen's-and-Rodman's c0ck stuck deep in your ear.

[Axe]

7am tantrums in a sunday morning seems pretty bad to a toddler's health.

[Baller789]

You seem to be understanding fellow Jordan stans/alts perfectly well though, even though they have Jordan's ballsaq buried in their mouths, and you yourself have his Madonna-rejected-in-favor-of-Pippen's-and-Rodman's c0ck stuck deep in your ear.

So am I a Jordan stan or not?

[BigShotBob]

Compare Jordan's 13 years with the Bulls to any 13 year stretch of Lebron (we can even skip his first 3 years entirely) and Jordan comes out ahead...by a lot.

And let's address the obvious elephant in the room.

Lebron is a sub 40% shooter from everywhere outside of 3 feet.

[RRR3]

Compare Jordan's 13 years with the Bulls to any 13 year stretch of Lebron (we can even skip his first 3 years entirely) and Jordan comes out ahead...by a lot.

And let's address the obvious elephant in the room.

Lebron is a sub 40% shooter from everywhere outside of 3 feet.
No he isn't. Bigshotslob making stuff up again.

[BigShotBob]

No he isn't. Bigshotslob making stuff up again.

Show me the stats then

[3ba11]

Show me the stats then


You are correct Sir:


85-98' JORDAN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1998-sum:advanced).... 29.1 per... 10.2 bpm.. 0.274 ws/48... 110.6 vorp on 35,887 minutes
06-18' LEBRON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2018-sum:advanced).... 28.6 per..... 9.6 bpm.. 0.254 ws/48... 110.7 vorp on 37,788 minutes


don't even think about using lebron's 09-21' because then it's even more of a bloodbath - a complete blowout, which proves that Lebron has just been living off the easy era since the Warriors introduced the current spaced-out, 3-point format in 2015

[TheGoatest]

Show me the stats then

Here are some stats of LeBron doing something in the finals that hasn't been done by anyone including Jordan in any playoff, let alone finals series ever:

https://images4.imagebam.com/86/8c/b1/ME5P9NS_o.jpg

Against a better team than any team Jordan ever faced too.

4 rings on 3 teams in 2 conferences and 10 finals appearances in 13 seasons between 2008 and 2020 > 6 rings and 6 finals appearances between 1985 and 1998 while being cannon fodder in early playoff exits the other 7 seasons in that period, including nothing but first round exits and sub-.500 seasons without a single player.

[Baller789]

Here are some stats of LeBron doing something in the finals that hasn't been done by anyone including Jordan in any playoff, let alone finals series ever:

https://images4.imagebam.com/86/8c/b1/ME5P9NS_o.jpg

Against a better team than any team Jordan ever faced too.

4 rings on 3 teams in 2 conferences and 10 finals appearances in 13 seasons between 2008 and 2020 > 6 rings and 6 finals appearances between 1985 and 1998 while being cannon fodder in early playoff exits the other 7 seasons in that period, including nothing but first round exits and sub-.500 seasons without a single player.

4/10

[Bawkish]

LMAO, you're too blind to check all your angles so that you don't end up looking like a moron in your pursuit of Jordan stanning.
"First playoff games played", huh? Okay, let's look at their first playoff games. How come LeBron averaged 35.7 ppg in his first playoff series whereas Jordan averaged only 29.3 ppg in his, even though LeBron was 21 and Jordan 22? Let me guess? We should look at their "first playoff games", but not THAT first. lol
You're just mad that your arguments got exposed for being as hollowed as they are, and that it's mathematically proveable that the combination of LeBron's playoff point total and playoff career ppg is more impressive than the combination of Jordan's playoff point total and playoff career ppg.

LOL this dude suddenly reverted to averages after melting down over totals :lol :lol

At least be consistent with your BS, man

[3ba11]

Here are some stats of LeBron doing something in the finals that hasn't been done by anyone including Jordan in any playoff, let alone finals series ever:

https://images4.imagebam.com/86/8c/b1/ME5P9NS_o.jpg








Against a better team than any team Jordan ever faced too.






The Curry/Klay Warriors were beaten by everyone including Kawhi's 1-star team, so Curry/Klay < Magic/Worthy, Shaq/Penny, Stockton/Malone

And Jordan would beat any team in history with an extra all-star teammate (3 perennial all-stars) like Lebron had

[TheGoatest]

LOL this dude suddenly reverted to averages after melting down over totals :lol :lol

At least be consistent with your BS, man

Duh, to prove a Jordan's stan's hypocrisy. You only want to customize a span of time that makes Jordan look best while only talking about a particular stat (points) that makes Jordan look best, and on top of all that only focusing on the aspect of the points stats (averages, and not totals) that make Jordan look best.

[Bawkish]

Duh, to prove a Jordan's stan's hypocrisy. You only want to customize a span of time that makes Jordan look best while only talking about a particular stat (points) that makes Jordan look best, and on top of all that only focusing on the aspect of the points stats (averages, and not totals) that make Jordan look best.

In which you were also guilty of by parroting totals over and over again because you knew Bron had the advantage due to longevity.

Averages is the way to measure whose more productive or consistent every game

[3ba11]

Duh, to prove a Jordan's stan's hypocrisy. You only want to customize a span of time that makes Jordan look best while only talking about a particular stat (points) that makes Jordan look best, and on top of all that only focusing on the aspect of the points stats (averages, and not totals) that make Jordan look best.


Jordan did more per game and produced at a higher rate/frequency as measured by PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, or VORP

This superior production rate comes with better plus/minus (impact), lower time of possession (teammate elevation) and better jumpshooting/more ball movement/more team assists (brand), so teammates play to capacity more often and the team uses effective strategy to achieve #1 offenses (#1 offenses with less offensive help) and the best team ceilings/Finals records (6/6)..

Jordan also never lost with 1 or 2 seeds, while everyone else in history lost 5+ times.. Jordan also never had equal-scoring partners like Lebron and was therefore taking on max defensive attention/burden, aka 6 carry-jobs.

[TheGoatest]

In which you were also guilty of by parroting totals over and over again because you knew Bron had the advantage due to longevity.

Averages is the way to measure whose more productive or consistent every game

Except I proved that LeBron's averages are more impressive than Jordan's longevity, because Jordan's differential in ppg is clearly lower than their differential in total points.

According to Jordan stans:

Being considered greater at an earlier age and not having a player of Sam Bowie's quality picked over you = Unfair advantage
Not losing in the first round and thereby playing more playoff games = Unfair advantage
Not choosing to retire in your prime and still playing the game = Unfair advantage

Meanwhile the fact that Jordan's playoff point total is boosted by the fact that he played in an era where he made the playoffs on 40, 38 and 30 win teams whereas LeBron played in an era where 42 wins wasn't enough for a playoff spot = No advantage whatsoever, let's quietly sweep this under the rug

[Baller789]

Except I proved that LeBron's averages are more impressive than Jordan's longevity, because Jordan's differential in ppg is clearly lower than their differential in total points.

According to Jordan stans:

Being considered greater at an earlier age and not having a player of Sam Bowie's quality picked over you = Unfair advantage
Not losing in the first round and thereby playing more playoff games = Unfair advantage
Not choosing to retire in your prime and still playing the game = Unfair advantage

Meanwhile the fact that Jordan's playoff point total is boosted by the fact that he played in an era where he made the playoffs on 40, 38 and 30 win teams whereas LeBron played in an era where 42 wins wasn't enough for a playoff spot = No advantage whatsoever, let's quietly sweep this under the rug

And who here agrees with your methodology?

[theman93]

I don't know, how is a forward, who has often played power forward, averaging more assists than a guard??
And most importantly, how is a player A who has averaged 4.4 more shots per game over his playoff career than player B converting those 4.4 FGAs, not to mention 1 extra FTA on top of those 4.4 FGAs, into averaging only 4.7 more PPG than player B? That is some major accomplishment right there. :lol


Oh you don't know? Good well let me tell you. Because Jordan is a better offensive rebounder and for his size, a better shot blocker. A 6'8 260 lb forward should average more offensive rebounds and blocks than a 6'6 210 lb guard. But Lebron doesn't. Lmao.

Lebron averages more assists because he plays point guard on the offensive side of the ball, not PF.

Because not only does player B shoot double the amount of 3's as player A, but player A also takes less efficient shots. Still isn't much of a criteria for your argument unless you want to argue Dwight Howard is a better scorer than Lebron because he has a higher fg% due to taking more efficient shots.



Yeah, right. You're not faulting LeBron, but are implying it is somehow "unfair" to Jordan that LeBron played more playoff series simply because he was recognized as a better player at an earlier age. Again, is it LeBron's fault that he was recognized as being better than Jordan at an earlier age so that he was drafted earlier?
I'm not faulting Lebron. You're just blinded by your emotion. Lebron's had a longer playoff career, that's not faulting him, it's just the truth. Because of that he accumulated more stats - which speaks to his longevity (this is a compliment not a diss). Just because someone does something longer than someone else and passes their total doesn't mean they are better. If I make 10 million dollars in 5 years and retire, but you make 12 million dollars in 10 years because you continued working that doesn't mean you were better at making money. It means you worked longer so you made more money.


Hey genius, here's a newsflash for you: Players are evaluated based on what actually happened. If Player A is good enough to get drafted at a higher pick at an earlier age than Player B, then that counts as a plus in favor of Player A, and not as some sort of automatic "would've" adjustment in favor of Player B. If a player is about to have an all-time career, but gets injured and that career is tragically cut short, then their place in the all-time rankings is not adjusted on hypothetical "would'ves" had they not gotten injured, but what that player accomplished prior to getting injured. And if a player retires of his own choice and leaves a gap in his career like Jordan, that gap is not filled by imaginary scenarios and imaginary points scored in the playoffs so that salty stans of that player can match him up better with a player who ended up scoring way more playoff points than him.

See above.




No, you haven't. I've compared Wilt Chamberlain's and Bob Love's playoff averages over their entire careers, for better or worse how their careers, both of which are long gone, turned out to be. You then proceeded to dissect their careers and say how it's unfair in favor of one of the two.

Yes, I have. I compared the two and told you why it's illogical.

[QUOTE=TheGoatest;14496657]Who says that we should adjust a player's longer career and greater longevity and downscale it so that it fits that of another player who didn't play as long and whose longevity wasn't as great - YOU do! I am doing the fairest comparison possible: Comparing their entire careers. And they show that LeBron has a higher point total, Jordan has the higher ppg average, but that LeBron's ppg average is more impressive in relation to Jordan's point total.
Incorrect. I'm saying evenly compare data sets that show ascents, peaks, and descents.

And lol no. You're comparing the difference in averages and comparing it to the difference in totals and drawing a discrepancy conclusion. Do you realize how stupid that is?

Dennis Johnson = 17.3 playoff ppg while Carmelo Anthony = 23.1 playoff ppg (28.7% discrepancy)
Dennis Johnson = 3,116 playoff total points while Carmelo Anthony = 1,914 playoff total points (47.8% discrepancy)

Is Dennis Johnson a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony because the discrepancy between their playoff ppg averages and playoff point totals is clearly greater in Johnson's favor? :roll: :roll: :roll:


And that Wilt-English part is truly some of the dumbest shit written on this forum, and I don't even like Wilt. I'm sure that your fellow Jordan stans and alts will still back up this idiotic statement in the name of the greater good - bashing LeBron.
It's only dumb to you because your too dumb to grasp a simple career arc to peak comparison.


LMAO, you're too blind to check all your angles so that you don't end up looking like a moron in your pursuit of Jordan stanning.
"First playoff games played", huh? Okay, let's look at their first playoff games. How come LeBron averaged 35.7 ppg in his first playoff series whereas Jordan averaged only 29.3 ppg in his, even though LeBron was 21 and Jordan 22? Let me guess? We should look at their "first playoff games", but not THAT first. lol
You're just mad that your arguments got exposed for being as hollowed as they are, and that it's mathematically proveable that the combination of LeBron's playoff point total and playoff career ppg is more impressive than the combination of Jordan's playoff point total and playoff career ppg.
You can look at their first playoff series of their career and draw that comparison if you want, but that's not the context of the debate. We're comparing careers and because Lebron's participated in more playoff games than Jordan the word "first" was used.

[theman93]

And who here agrees with your methodology?

Nobody. Lol.

Dennis Johnson is a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony using his methodology. LMAO

[TheCorporation]

Here are some stats of LeBron doing something in the finals that hasn't been done by anyone including Jordan in any playoff, let alone finals series ever:

https://images4.imagebam.com/86/8c/b1/ME5P9NS_o.jpg

Against a better team than any team Jordan ever faced too.

4 rings on 3 teams in 2 conferences and 10 finals appearances in 13 seasons between 2008 and 2020 > 6 rings and 6 finals appearances between 1985 and 1998 while being cannon fodder in early playoff exits the other 7 seasons in that period, including nothing but first round exits and sub-.500 seasons without a single player.

Wrap this one up, it's over

[Baller789]

Wrap this one up, it's over

I wished your dad wrapped up his weiner instead.
:oldlol:

[Baller789]

Nobody. Lol.

Dennis Johnson is a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony using his methodology. LMAO

Just wait for his mental gymnastics next.

[Spurs m8]

In which you were also guilty of by parroting totals over and over again because you knew Bron had the advantage due to longevity.

Averages is the way to measure whose more productive or consistent every game

Bron stans...the only ones you hear talk about totals over averages lmao

Literal children know averages are the best measure, these idiots can't gaslight us

[GimmeThat]

the reincarnation of Len Bias would surpass Jordan with ease

[TheGoatest]

Oh you don't know? Good well let me tell you. Because Jordan is a better offensive rebounder and for his size, a better shot blocker. A 6'8 260 lb forward should average more offensive rebounds and blocks than a 6'6 210 lb guard. But Lebron doesn't. Lmao.

Lebron averages more assists because he plays point guard on the offensive side of the ball, not PF.

Because not only does player B shoot double the amount of 3's as player A, but player A also takes less efficient shots. Still isn't much of a criteria for your argument unless you want to argue Dwight Howard is a better scorer than Lebron because he has a higher fg% due to taking more efficient shots.

No, it's because the extra 3.4 bricks per game he threw up over the course of his playoff career generated enough potential offensive rebound opportunities to grab a whopping extra 0.2 offensive rebounds per game, which could be grabbed with energy saved from not going after the significantly higher 2.8 defensive rebounds he averaged less than LeBron.

LeBron played plenty of power forward, and even some center in Miami. And yes, he also played point guard during the Lakers championship run. All of these because he is a more versitale basketball player than Jordan. But the reason he averages more assists is that he possesses court vision that Michael Jordan did not possess, something that even the absolutist monarch of all Jordan stans/LeBron haters, Skip Brainless admitted.

And no shit Jordan didn't take nearly as many threes, because he couldn't shoot them as well.
Implying that a player taking less efficient shots somehow counts as a plus for that player is beyond stupid and is in conflict with the most basic fundamentals of basketball taught to a 5 year-old on his first day of practice.
Did Dwight Howard average more 3 point attempts AND still have a higher fg% than LeBron, as is the case with LeBron and Jordan? LeBron averaged nearly double the 3 point attempts Jordan did and still maintained a higher fg% (and higher 3pt%), while averaging 4.7 ppg less, a difference that should be higher in favor of Jordan considering LeBron did it on 4.4 fga less and 1.0 fta less per game. All this while Jordan had 3 playoff runs with a shortened 3 point line that was virtually customized to be his ideal 3-point range. Which by the way, aside from his 40, 38 and 30 win playoff appearances, is another thing that should factored in Jordan's career, whether it's playoff or regular season career.


I'm not faulting Lebron. You're just blinded by your emotion. Lebron's had a longer playoff career, that's not faulting him, it's just the truth. Because of that he accumulated more stats - which speaks to his longevity (this is a compliment not a diss). Just because someone does something longer than someone else and passes their total doesn't mean they are better. If I make 10 million dollars in 5 years and retire, but you make 12 million dollars in 10 years because you continued working that doesn't mean you were better at making money. It means you worked longer so you made more money.
See above.

Except the difference is nowhere near as extreme as the example you provided, and would only be relevant in a world where LeBron scored 7500 playoff points on a sub-20 ppg average and not 28.7, which is the case. I have already taken their averages into account. While taking their totals into account, and comparing the relation between the two. While also taking how many series they won on average, which led to more games being played. And I am also willing to take into account that Jordan's first round series were best out of 5 and not 7 unlike LeBron's, as long as it is recognized that he also played in an era where he could make the playoffs on a 40, 38 and 30 win team, unlike LeBron. And most importantly, I have taken all of their averages into account, and not just points which benefit a pro-Jordan agenda the most.
But even only taking points into account, which favor Jordan, I have proven that the combination of LeBron's totals and averages is still more impressive than the combination of Jordan's totals and averages.

[TheGoatest]

Yes, I have. I compared the two and told you why it's illogical.


Incorrect. I'm saying evenly compare data sets that show ascents, peaks, and descents.

And lol no. You're comparing the difference in averages and comparing it to the difference in totals and drawing a discrepancy conclusion. Do you realize how stupid that is?

I am comparing data that actually exists and not adding imaginary points onto a player's account, while implying that he would maintain his ppg average had he played an extra 87 career playoff games (due to winning more first round series and not retiring).
And I am comparing their entire careers while taking everything into consideration: Totals, averages, ascents, peaks and descents, based on what actually happened. And LeBron's combination of longevity and averages comes out on top. Do you realize how stupid it is for me to casually assume that Jordan would've scored all those points and maintain his ppg average. LeBron had a playoff run at age of 21 - the same age where Jordan wasn't considered good enough to be picked over Sam Bowie. He had another playoff run at the age of 36 - the same age after Jordan retired. All this is included in the overall evaluation of LeBron.


Dennis Johnson = 17.3 playoff ppg while Carmelo Anthony = 23.1 playoff ppg (28.7% discrepancy)
Dennis Johnson = 3,116 playoff total points while Carmelo Anthony = 1,914 playoff total points (47.8% discrepancy)
Is Dennis Johnson a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony because the discrepancy between their playoff ppg averages and playoff point totals is clearly greater in Johnson's favor? :roll: :roll: :roll:

You tried your best and found the most ridiculous example you could find, hoping that the fact that Carmelo has nearly twice as many regular season points as Dennis Johnson will somehow make it more ridiculous. But taking into account what they've accomplished over their playoff careers, your example is still nowhere near as ridiculous as Alex English being better than Wilt.
But if you want to make fun of my discrepancy logic, I can assure you that you won't find discrepancy examples (including the one you posted) that are as ridiculous as these players being better playoff scorers:

Lou Hudson
Marques Johnson
Bob Love

than these players:

Tim Duncan
Kawhi Leonard
Klay Thompson

according to the idiotic ppg logic.
Certainly not when it comes to players who are anywhere near being the main focuses of the opponents' defense, as is the case with both LeBron and Jordan (and not Dennis Johnson for the majority of his career, where he was a 4th option).
And even more certainly not if that player has better overall, non point related stats like LeBron does over Jordan.


It's only dumb to you because your too dumb to grasp a simple career arc to peak comparison.

Once again, not as dumb as casually slicing a chunk of player's career and taking it away from him so that you can custom-match your agenda.


You can look at their first playoff series of their career and draw that comparison if you want, but that's not the context of the debate. We're comparing careers and because Lebron's participated in more playoff games than Jordan the word "first" was used.

I am not drawing that comparison. I am just using it as an example to show how you can customize a period of a player's career to make him look better/worse than another player. What I am really doing is taking their entire careers into account. You are the one casually slicing a part of LeBron's career away so that it may match the extent of Jordan's career.

The bottom line is that if we forget everything about them being Michael Jordan and LeBron James, and all the nostalgia- or emotional-related attachment and similar factors one might favor over the other. And if we simply call them Player A and Player B, where:

Player A has:
33.4 ppg and a 5987 point total
6.4 rpg and a 1152 rebound total
5.7 apg and a 1052 assist total
2.1 spg and a 376 steal total
0.9 bpg and a 158 block total

while Player B has:
28.7 ppg and a 7631 point total
9.0 rpg and a 2391 rebound total
7.2 apg and a 1919 assist total
1.7 spg and a 454 steal total
0.9 bpg and a 252 steal total

There is no way that someone who only knew this and nothing else about these two players would think that Player A is more impressive, and you know it. Even if that person disproportionately valued points over overall stats, as long as they valued overall stats somewhat. And even if that person valued averages disproportionately higher than totals, as long as they valued totals somewhat.

[theman93]

No, it's because the extra 3.4 bricks per game he threw up over the course of his playoff career generated enough potential offensive rebound opportunities to grab a whopping extra 0.2 offensive rebounds per game, which could be grabbed with energy saved from not going after the significantly higher 2.8 defensive rebounds he averaged less than LeBron.
That's conjecture and not contextualizing their teammates. How do you know Lebron's teammates didn't average more missed FGs/gm while he was on the court than Jordan's teammates while he was on the court?


LeBron played plenty of power forward, and even some center in Miami. And yes, he also played point guard during the Lakers championship run. All of these because he is a more versitale basketball player than Jordan. But the reason he averages more assists is that he possesses court vision that Michael Jordan did not possess, something that even the absolutist monarch of all Jordan stans/LeBron haters, Skip Brainless admitted.
No, Lebron was and has always been the primary ball handler for his playoff teams and chose to distribute the ball more instead of shoot.


And no shit Jordan didn't take nearly as many threes, because he couldn't shoot them as well.
Oh so Jordan didn't take as many three's as Lebron because he shot 33.2% compared to Lebron's 33.7%, a 0.5% difference? LOL no, the 3 simply just wasn't an emphasis in the 80's/90's.

How is Jordan only a 0.5% worse 3 point shooter than Lebron when the 3 wasn't even an emphasis in Jordan's era while the 3 is practiced religiously in Lebron's? :lol


Implying that a player taking less efficient shots somehow counts as a plus for that player is beyond stupid and is in conflict with the most basic fundamentals of basketball taught to a 5 year-old on his first day of practice.
I never argued less efficient shots is a plus, you're just so emotional you can't take in the argument.

You made a ppg argument using FGA% and FGA, but you didn't contextualize shot efficiency. 2 point shots in the paint are a more efficient shot per attempt than the mid range, and 3 point shots are a more efficient shot per attempt than the midrange.

Jordan averages 4.7 more ppg on 4.4 more fga's, the majority of which are less efficient midrange shots, and is still only 0.8% worse from the field. What do you think happens if his era only focused on 3's and points in the paint? Not to mention if he drew fouls at the same rate as Lebron (he didn't, Jordan was greater at drawing fouls) then that's still nearly 4 more ppg on less efficient shots.


Did Dwight Howard average more 3 point attempts AND still have a higher fg% than LeBron, as is the case with LeBron and Jordan? LeBron averaged nearly double the 3 point attempts Jordan did and still maintained a higher fg% (and higher 3pt%), while averaging 4.7 ppg less, a difference that should be higher in favor of Jordan considering LeBron did it on 4.4 fga less and 1.0 fta less per game. All this while Jordan had 3 playoff runs with a shortened 3 point line that was virtually customized to be his ideal 3-point range. Which by the way, aside from his 40, 38 and 30 win playoff appearances, is another thing that should factored in Jordan's career, whether it's playoff or regular season career.
The higher fg% is maintained because 50% of his FGA's come within 10 ft of the basket. He is terrible from 10-16 ft and 16 ft-3 pt which is why only 9.3% of his shot attempts are taken between 10-16 ft, and only 18.1% of his shot attempt are taken between 16 ft-3 pt line.

And ok deal, let's factor in Jordan's playoff 3's from 95-97 since the line was shortened during that period and is an outlier. Excluding 95-97, Jordan is a 34.4% 3 point shooter from the traditional 3 point line instead of 33.2%.

34.4% > 33.7% :lol


Except the difference is nowhere near as extreme as the example you provided, and would only be relevant in a world where LeBron scored 7500 playoff points on a sub-20 ppg average and not 28.7, which is the case. I have already taken their averages into account. While taking their totals into account, and comparing the relation between the two. While also taking how many series they won on average, which led to more games being played. And I am also willing to take into account that Jordan's first round series were best out of 5 and not 7 unlike LeBron's, as long as it is recognized that he also played in an era where he could make the playoffs on a 40, 38 and 30 win team, unlike LeBron. And most importantly, I have taken all of their averages into account, and not just points which benefit a pro-Jordan agenda the most.
But even only taking points into account, which favor Jordan, I have proven that the combination of LeBron's totals and averages is still more impressive than the combination of Jordan's totals and averages.
No it's relevant in both cases LOL. You haven't proven anything besides making up a methodology as you go that's easy to pick apart.

The only reason Lebron's totaled more points than Jordan is because he played more games. It took Lebron 212 games to reach 5,987 playoff points whereas it only took Jordan 179 games. The same way if I make 10 million dollars in 5 years, but you make 12 million dollars in 10 years it would take you over 8 years to make what I made in 5. Longevity. Math.

[Baller789]

That's conjecture and not contextualizing their teammates. How do you know Lebron's teammates didn't average more missed FGs/gm while he was on the court than Jordan's teammates while he was on the court?


No, Lebron was and has always been the primary ball handler for his playoff teams and chose to distribute the ball more instead of shoot.


Oh so Jordan didn't take as many three's as Lebron because he shot 33.2% compared to Lebron's 33.7%, a 0.5% difference? LOL no, the 3 simply just wasn't an emphasis in the 80's/90's.

How is Jordan only a 0.5% worse 3 point shooter than Lebron when the 3 wasn't even an emphasis in Jordan's era while the 3 is practiced religiously in Lebron's? :lol


I never argued less efficient shots is a plus, you're just so emotional you can't take in the argument.

You made a ppg argument using FGA% and FGA, but you didn't contextualize shot efficiency. 2 point shots in the paint are a more efficient shot per attempt than the mid range, and 3 point shots are a more efficient shot per attempt than the midrange.

Jordan averages 4.7 more ppg on 4.4 more fga's, the majority of which are less efficient midrange shots, and is still only 0.8% worse from the field. What do you think happens if his era only focused on 3's and points in the paint? Not to mention if he drew fouls at the same rate as Lebron (he didn't, Jordan was greater at drawing fouls) then that's still nearly 4 more ppg on less efficient shots.


The higher fg% is maintained because 50% of his FGA's come in the paint. He is terrible from 10-16 ft and 16 ft-3 pt which is why only 9.3% of his shot attempts are taken between 10-16 ft, and only 18.1% of his shot attempt are taken between 16 ft-3 pt line.

And ok deal, let's factor in Jordan's playoff 3's from 95-97 since the line was shortened during that period and is an outlier. Excluding 95-97, Jordan is a 34.4% 3 point shooter from the traditional 3 point line instead of 33.2%.

34.4% > 33.7% :lol


No it's relevant in both cases LOL. You haven't proven anything besides making up a methodology as you go that's easy to pick apart.

The only reason Lebron's totaled more points than Jordan is because he played more games. It took Lebron 212 games to reach 5,987 playoff points whereas it only took Jordan 179 games. The same way if I make 10 million dollars in 5 years, but you make 12 million dollars in 10 years it would take you over 8 years to make what I made in 5. Longevity. Math.

https://i.ibb.co/K7Phcnc/200.gif (https://imgbb.com/)


The destruction of theGoatest is just... Beautiful. :cry:

[theman93]

I am comparing data that actually exists and not adding imaginary points onto a player's account, while implying that he would maintain his ppg average had he played an extra 87 career playoff games (due to winning more first round series and not retiring).
And I am comparing their entire careers while taking everything into consideration: Totals, averages, ascents, peaks and descents, based on what actually happened. And LeBron's combination of longevity and averages comes out on top. Do you realize how stupid it is for me to casually assume that Jordan would've scored all those points and maintain his ppg average. LeBron had a playoff run at age of 21 - the same age where Jordan wasn't considered good enough to be picked over Sam Bowie. He had another playoff run at the age of 36 - the same age after Jordan retired. All this is included in the overall evaluation of LeBron.
Which is why I compared Lebron's first 179 games to Jordan's 179 playoff games. Account for whatever you want in Lebron's favor and to Jordan's detriment - a 21 y/o playoff run, Jordan's first 3 playoffs, and Lebron's 36 year old season - and Jordan is still the superior scorer.

Lebron's longevity, assists/gm and defensive rebounds/gm are the only things that come out on top.

Jordan's points/gm, offensive rebounds/gm, steals/gm, PER, WS/48, championships, and Finals MVP's come out on top.

In other words Jordan is the more efficient player which led to more winning in a shorter span. It's taken Lebron longer to do less.



You tried your best and found the most ridiculous example you could find, hoping that the fact that Carmelo has nearly twice as many regular season points as Dennis Johnson will somehow make it more ridiculous. But taking into account what they've accomplished over their playoff careers, your example is still nowhere near as ridiculous as Alex English being better than Wilt.
No, I didn't try at all it's just that ridiculous because your methodology is ridiculous and nonsensical. Only a retard believes Dennis Johnson is a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony, but you believe that because your made up methodology leads you to that conclusion LOL.


But if you want to make fun of my discrepancy logic, I can assure you that you won't find discrepancy examples (including the one you posted) that are as ridiculous as these players being better playoff scorers:

Lou Hudson
Marques Johnson
Bob Love

than these players:

Tim Duncan
Kawhi Leonard
Klay Thompson

according to the idiotic ppg logic.

Certainly not when it comes to players who are anywhere near being the main focuses of the opponents' defense, as is the case with both LeBron and Jordan (and not Dennis Johnson for the majority of his career, where he was a 4th option).
And even more certainly not if that player has better overall, non point related stats like LeBron does over Jordan.

I'll agree it's not perfect, but it's a much more logical standard than comparing % differences in ppg and total points scored. All those guys you listed are/were very good playoff scorers, but your standard concludes players who were not good playoff scorers were better than good playoff scorers.

Take Jeff Hornacek, who you make fun of all the time, and use your methodology to compare him to Tracy McGrady. Who is the more impressive playoff scorer by your methodology? Let's find out:

Hornacek = 14.9 playoff ppg while McGrady = 22.2 playoff ppg (39.4% discrepancy)
McGrady = 3,116 playoff total points while Carmelo Anthony = 1,914 playoff total points (61.4% discrepancy)

By your methodology Hornacek is a more impressive playoff scorer than Tracy McGrady because the discrepancy between their playoff ppg averages and playoff point totals is clearly greater in Hornacek's favor. That means in back to back Finals Jordan beat Malone, Stockton, and Hornacek who actually is a more impressive playoff scorer than McGrady according to you. :lebronamazed: GOAT gonna GOAT.


I am not drawing that comparison. I am just using it as an example to show how you can customize a period of a player's career to make him look better/worse than another player. What I am really doing is taking their entire careers into account. You are the one casually slicing a part of LeBron's career away so that it may match the extent of Jordan's career.

The bottom line is that if we forget everything about them being Michael Jordan and LeBron James, and all the nostalgia- or emotional-related attachment and similar factors one might favor over the other. And if we simply call them Player A and Player B, where:

Player A has:
33.4 ppg and a 5987 point total
6.4 rpg and a 1152 rebound total
5.7 apg and a 1052 assist total
2.1 spg and a 376 steal total
0.9 bpg and a 158 block total

while Player B has:
28.7 ppg and a 7631 point total
9.0 rpg and a 2391 rebound total
7.2 apg and a 1919 assist total
1.7 spg and a 454 steal total
0.9 bpg and a 252 steal total

There is no way that someone who only knew this and nothing else about these two players would think that Player A is more impressive, and you know it. Even if that person disproportionately valued points over overall stats, as long as they valued overall stats somewhat. And even if that person valued averages disproportionately higher than totals, as long as they valued totals somewhat.

LOL no they wouldn't. I would rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game. Player A who averages more steals and equals player B in blocks also hints to me that he's better on the defensive side of the ball. Oh, and if you don't hide the rest of the box score averages I would rather have Player A who averages more offensive rebounds per game and less turnovers per game. Also, dividing totals by the average allows you to calculate that Player B played way longer than player A, so the totals become less impressive because he played longer.

But why stop at box scores? What if we extended the comparison and looked at Finals MVP's? Since dividing totals by the average allows us to calculate that player B played way longer, shouldn't he win more Finals MVP's? Nope LOL. That would be player A who championed the most prestigious award in the sport more times in less time.

MJ in a landslide.

[theman93]

https://i.ibb.co/K7Phcnc/200.gif (https://imgbb.com/)


The destruction of theGoatest is just... Beautiful. :cry:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/RmWBzhsMDYDoLQRnAu/giphy.gif

[RogueBorg]

Except I proved that LeBron's averages are more impressive than Jordan's longevity, because Jordan's differential in ppg is clearly lower than their differential in total points.

According to Jordan stans:

Being considered greater at an earlier age and not having a player of Sam Bowie's quality picked over you = Unfair advantage
Not losing in the first round and thereby playing more playoff games = Unfair advantage
Not choosing to retire in your prime and still playing the game = Unfair advantage

Meanwhile the fact that Jordan's playoff point total is boosted by the fact that he played in an era where he made the playoffs on 40, 38 and 30 win teams whereas LeBron played in an era where 42 wins wasn't enough for a playoff spot = No advantage whatsoever, let's quietly sweep this under the rug

Dang dude, the police should be called in and Theman93 should be charged with assault for abusing you like that.

[theman93]

I'll agree it's not perfect, but it's a much more logical standard than comparing % differences in ppg and total points scored. All those guys you listed are/were very good playoff scorers, but your standard concludes players who were not good playoff scorers were better than good playoff scorers.

Take Jeff Hornacek, who you make fun of all the time, and use your methodology to compare him to Tracy McGrady. Who is the more impressive playoff scorer by your methodology? Let's find out:

Hornacek = 14.9 playoff ppg while McGrady = 22.2 playoff ppg (39.4% discrepancy)
McGrady = 3,116 playoff total points while Carmelo Anthony = 1,914 playoff total points (61.4% discrepancy)

By your methodology Hornacek is a more impressive playoff scorer than Tracy McGrady because the discrepancy between their playoff ppg averages and playoff point totals is clearly greater in Hornacek's favor. That means in back to back Finals Jordan beat Malone, Stockton, and Hornacek who actually is a more impressive playoff scorer than McGrady according to you. :lebronamazed: GOAT gonna GOAT.



LOL no they wouldn't. I would rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game. Player A who averages more steals and equals player B in blocks also hints to me that he's better on the defensive side of the ball. Oh, and if you don't hide the rest of the box score averages I would rather have Player A who averages more offensive rebounds per game and less turnovers per game. Also, dividing totals by the average allows you to calculate that Player B played way longer than player A, so the totals become less impressive because he played longer.

But why stop at box scores? What if we extended the comparison and looked at Finals MVP's? Since dividing totals by the average allows us to calculate that player B played way longer, shouldn't he win more Finals MVP's? Nope LOL. That would be player A who championed the most prestigious award in the sport more times in less time.

MJ in a landslide.

Edited bolded see below:

Hornacek = 2,092 playoff total points while McGrady = 1,109 playoff total points (61.4% discrepancy)

[TheGoatest]

That's conjecture and not contextualizing their teammates. How do you know Lebron's teammates didn't average more missed FGs/gm while he was on the court than Jordan's teammates while he was on the court?

And how do you know that Jordan's teammates didn't average even more FGs/gm while he was on the court to make the 0.2 extra offensive rebounds even less impressive? How do you know what the offensive rebounding situation looked like with regards to LeBron's teammates.
What I do know for a 100% fact is that Jordan himself averaged 3.4 more bricks/potential offensive rebounds per game than LeBron, which is a number that is 17 times higher than the 0.2 actual offensive rebounds in question. And based on that 100% fact alone, regardless of his teammates’ makes/misses, him grabbing 1 offensive rebound out of every one of his 17 own misses on average is flat out not impressive. In fact far from it. Especially considering the energy saved from not going after the 2.8 more defensive rebounds that LeBron averaged on the other end.


No, Lebron was and has always been the primary ball handler for his playoff teams and chose to distribute the ball more instead of shoot.

And why was he a primary ball-handler? So that his superior to Jordan’s court-vision, once again even admitted by Skip Brainless, could be utilized more. All this is connected to LeBron being the more versatile player overall.


Oh so Jordan didn't take as many three's as Lebron because he shot 33.2% compared to Lebron's 33.7%, a 0.5% difference? LOL no, the 3 simply just wasn't an emphasis in the 80's/90's.

How is Jordan only a 0.5% worse 3 point shooter than Lebron when the 3 wasn't even an emphasis in Jordan's era while the 3 is practiced religiously in Lebron's? :lol

A 3 pointer will always have a lower percentage of being made than a 2 pointer. Pre-and-post Jordan's era and pre-and-post LeBron's era. And the fact that LeBron maintained a higher overall FG% despite shooting nearly twice as many 3s makes it even more impressive, regardless of era.
And let's not act that players were incapable of shooting a high 3 point percentage in Jordan's era. 6 of the top 10 highest 3pt% seasons for a player ever are from Jordan's era.
In general, it’s hilarious how you suddenly want to bring “era” into what was a purely statistical comparison into the discussion. The same era where 1992-93 Mark Price, 1993-94 Latrell Sprewell and 1996-97 Tim Hardaway made all-NBA 1st teams and the same era where none of Jordan’s rivals he beat in the finals could beat Hakeem + a 14 ppg on 38% shooting in the playoffs 2nd option to win a ring for themselves.


I never argued less efficient shots is a plus, you're just so emotional you can't take in the argument.

You made a ppg argument using FGA% and FGA, but you didn't contextualize shot efficiency. 2 point shots in the paint are a more efficient shot per attempt than the mid range, and 3 point shots are a more efficient shot per attempt than the midrange.

Jordan averages 4.7 more ppg on 4.4 more fga's, the majority of which are less efficient midrange shots, and is still only 0.8% worse from the field. What do you think happens if his era only focused on 3's and points in the paint? Not to mention if he drew fouls at the same rate as Lebron (he didn't, Jordan was greater at drawing fouls) then that's still nearly 4 more ppg on less efficient shots.


The higher fg% is maintained because 50% of his FGA's come within 10 ft of the basket. He is terrible from 10-16 ft and 16 ft-3 pt which is why only 9.3% of his shot attempts are taken between 10-16 ft, and only 18.1% of his shot attempt are taken between 16 ft-3 pt line.
Let me get this straight: When I bring up the fact that Jordan took 4.4 more shots to score 4.7 more points, you want to go into a deep discussion about “contextualizing shot efficiency”, etc. But when you bring up the fact that Jordan averaged 4.7 more points, you just expect this to hang, without someone bringing up the fact that he did it on 4.4 more shots? You’d like that, wouldn’t you? :lol
The bottom line is that LeBron generated a higher efficiency from the shots that he took than Jordan did from the shots he took.


And ok deal, let's factor in Jordan's playoff 3's from 95-97 since the line was shortened during that period and is an outlier. Excluding 95-97, Jordan is a 34.4% 3 point shooter from the traditional 3 point line instead of 33.2%.

34.4% > 33.7% :lol

If you think that 34.4% on 2.3 3PA is more impressive than 33.7% on 4.8 3PA, then feel free to do so. Because it’s not. And it’s certainly not as mathematically efficient. Aside from this, we then also have to factor in Jordan’s horrible .308 3pt percentage (on 3.4 3PA) in the 3 playoff runs between 1995 and 1998 should factor in on his otherwise good reputation as a good shooter of long 2 pointers.


No it's relevant in both cases LOL. You haven't proven anything besides making up a methodology as you go that's easy to pick apart.

The only reason Lebron's totaled more points than Jordan is because he played more games. It took Lebron 212 games to reach 5,987 playoff points whereas it only took Jordan 179 games. The same way if I make 10 million dollars in 5 years, but you make 12 million dollars in 10 years it would take you over 8 years to make what I made in 5. Longevity. Math.
It took LeBron 266 playoff games to reach 7631 playoff points.
It took Jordan 179 games to reach 5987 playoff points.
Those are the facts we know.
How many games it would’ve taken Jordan to reach 7631 we’ll never know. You can say that reaching 5987 points in 179 games is more impressive than reaching 7631 playoff points in 266 games. But you will do so because of your standom and not because it is objectively more impressive, as can be demonstrated by the uniqueness of the 7631 total compared to the 33.4 average in historical context.
I’ve already proven that within the context of the two, there is historically a bigger discrepancy between the 7631 point total and 5987 point total than the 33.4 ppg average and a 28.7 average, something that you attempted to mock and failed miserably. And I’ve only compared it to LeBron’s average. This discrepancy becomes even larger if I was to include the historical context of Jordan’s 33.4 ppg compared to Allen Iverson’s 29.7 or Durant’s 29.5 playoff ppg average.

[TheGoatest]

Which is why I compared Lebron's first 179 games to Jordan's 179 playoff games. Account for whatever you want in Lebron's favor and to Jordan's detriment - a 21 y/o playoff run, Jordan's first 3 playoffs, and Lebron's 36 year old season - and Jordan is still the superior scorer.

Lebron's longevity, assists/gm and defensive rebounds/gm are the only things that come out on top.

Jordan's points/gm, offensive rebounds/gm, steals/gm, PER, WS/48, championships, and Finals MVP's come out on top.

In other words Jordan is the more efficient player which led to more winning in a shorter span. It's taken Lebron longer to do less.
I compared their entire careers based on what actually happened and not an assumption on what would’ve happened. Jordan has two more Finals MVPs, but in addition to the 4 Finals MVPs LeBron has, he has had 4 more finals series that are unquestionably statistically superior than 2 of Jordan’s Finals MVP series.
Jordan’s FGAs, FTAs, steals are the only things that come out on top.
His point total should be way closer to LeBron’s considering how many more shots he took.
It took LeBron 4496 field goal attempts to reach 6163 playoff points
It took Jordan 4497 field goal attempts to reach 5987 playoff points.
In other words, LeBron is the more efficient scorer (let alone rebounder/passer) who scored more points on less shots.


No, I didn't try at all it's just that ridiculous because your methodology is ridiculous and nonsensical. Only a retard believes Dennis Johnson is a more impressive playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony, but you believe that because your made up methodology leads you to that conclusion LOL.

No, only a retard would bring up a player whose place in the all-time rankings is 90% based on his regular season accomplishments in a playoff related discussion, vs a player whose reputation is about 50-50 between regular season and playoffs, so that retard could in desperation try to get himself out of a hole he dug himself into.
You might as well have brought up Zion Williamson. He averaged 27 points on 61% in 33 minutes, over 61 games last regular season. Now go on an NBA panel and mention his name and these impressive numbers in a conversation about NBA’s all-time great playoff scorers. See how far that gets you.


I'll agree it's not perfect, but it's a much more logical standard than comparing % differences in ppg and total points scored. All those guys you listed are/were very good playoff scorers, but your standard concludes players who were not good playoff scorers were better than good playoff scorers.

Take Jeff Hornacek, who you make fun of all the time, and use your methodology to compare him to Tracy McGrady. Who is the more impressive playoff scorer by your methodology? Let's find out:

Hornacek = 14.9 playoff ppg while McGrady = 22.2 playoff ppg (39.4% discrepancy)
McGrady = 3,116 playoff total points while Carmelo Anthony = 1,914 playoff total points (61.4% discrepancy)

By your methodology Hornacek is a more impressive playoff scorer than Tracy McGrady because the discrepancy between their playoff ppg averages and playoff point totals is clearly greater in Hornacek's favor. That means in back to back Finals Jordan beat Malone, Stockton, and Hornacek who actually is a more impressive playoff scorer than McGrady according to you. :lebronamazed: GOAT gonna GOAT.

Just like I predicted and wrote in my previous post = once again found the most extreme example you could find of a player whose all-time ranking is 90% based on his regular season accomplishments in hope that this general, heavily regular season-based reputation will somehow make his crappy playoff accomplishments look better, then compare that player to a player whose role doesn't compare to begin with. Yet despite all this I could STILL once again top that example and find one based on general ppg that looks more ridiculous:
Luol Deng averaged twice the playoff ppg of Robert Horry and Derek Fisher.
Did you know that not only is Luol Deng a better playoff scorer than two of the biggest clutch scorers in playoff history with 12 rings between them, but that he is literally TWICE the playoff scorer as them? Josh Howard is also about twice the playoff scorer either of the two were. Then there's Danillo Gallinari, Josh Smith, Thurl Bailey, Monta Ellis, Alvan Adams, Trevor Ariza, Jeff Teague, Bryon Russell, Lionel Hollins, Happy Hairston, Keith Erickson, Robert Reid and J.J. Redick, who are all also considerably better playoff scorers than either Robert Horry or Derek Fisher.
You may have to look some of those names up on basketball-reference.com due to never having heard of them, but once you do so, you will see that their playoff ppg is still higher than Horry's or Fisher's, and that's what really matters. GOAT gonna GOAT indeed.

[TheGoatest]

LOL no they wouldn't. I would rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game. Player A who averages more steals and equals player B in blocks also hints to me that he's better on the defensive side of the ball. Oh, and if you don't hide the rest of the box score averages I would rather have Player A who averages more offensive rebounds per game and less turnovers per game. Also, dividing totals by the average allows you to calculate that Player B played way longer than player A, so the totals become less impressive because he played longer.

But why stop at box scores? What if we extended the comparison and looked at Finals MVP's? Since dividing totals by the average allows us to calculate that player B played way longer, shouldn't he win more Finals MVP's? Nope LOL. That would be player A who championed the most prestigious award in the sport more times in less time.

MJ in a landslide.

We could look at Finals MVPs. We could also look at Finals MVPs won on multiple teams. We could also discuss the quality and not quantity of those Finals MVPs, and how many were won against 73-9 teams while leading every player in the series in every category. We could also make a finals appearances-to-first round exits ratio. But that’s not what this is about. This discussion initially spawned from you bringing up your bullshit Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson comparison in an attempt to shit on LeBron’s by far highest ever playoff point total scored.


Oh, I don't doubt that "you", knowing that Player A is Michael Jordan and being the stan/hater that you are, would say Jordan's numbers are more impressive. And even here you couldn't hide your standom, as you brought up other aspects of their box score than the ones I mentioned, and ones that favor Jordan. If you notice, in my Player A vs Player B comparison, I didn’t mention that Player A’s 4.7 extra points are generated by 4.4 extra shots and 1.0 extra free throw attempt per game, which make the 4.7 extra ppg look way less impressive, in fact not impressive at all, in a should-actually-be-higher-than-only-4.7 kind of way. Yet you conveniently forgot to include that in your addition of other aspects, but you didn’t forget to add the whopping 0.2 offensive rebounds.
And your constant regurgitating of the 0.2 offensive rebounds, which I have already debunked as being unimpressive taking Jordan's extra 3.4 bricks into consideration, just shows how desperately pathetic you are, fighting for scraps to prove Jordan has anything else aside from ppg over LeBron. 0.2 = a number that is as statistically negligible as the 0.3 extra minutes per game Jordan was averaging to boost his averages, which I haven't even brought up yet. And which, adjusted per minute, can only make LeBron's 0.3 mpg inferior averages look more impressive relative to Jordan’s.
To get back to the subject, I was talking about the average, objective fan, who truly didn't know who “Player A” and “Player B” were. And that person would be picking Player B without thinking twice. There is no way in hell that someone, once again only knowing them as Player A and Player B, would look at the 28.7 ppg number Player B is averaging and think to themselves "That ppg looks to be a little low, and could be higher", in comparison to the 6.4 rpg and 5.7 apg. When is the last time you've heard the sentence "He is averaging only 28.7 points"? I mean, in a non-sarcastic way that implies those 28.7 points are actually low? The only time you’ll find such an instance is if that player also averaged 30+ shots per game and only generated 28.7 points out of those 30+ shots.
I did a quick search for what an "average average" for an average NBA player is. And found out that in 2018-19 it was:
10.2 ppg
4.1 rpg
2.0 apg
0.7 apg
0.4 bpg
Feel free to prove that it was radically different than this in Jordan's era, which I know it wasn't.
Anyway, 28.7 is nearly 3 times the league average, and in general good enough to be among the league leaders every year in that category, if not #1 itself on the list some years. Meanwhile Player A's 6.4 rpg is only 1.5 times the league average. It is nowhere near the league leaders. An objective person would be much more inclined to think that the 6.4 rpg is an average that could be higher than a 28.7 ppg average. The same goes for their assist average in relation to the league's "average average".
To stay within the realm of objectivity, show me one instance where a player was criticized for averaging 28.7 ppg, regardless of whether that player is a point guard or a center. I will show you multiple instances where a player was criticized for averaging 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg, in a matter of seconds.
Even if that objective person would compensate for positions, then 6.4 rpg is still only decent at best for a guard and crappy for a PF/C. 5.7 apg might be impressive for a PF/C, but it is mediocre for a G. Meanwhile, 28.7 ppg is impressive regardless of position.
The only person who, after seeing "28.7 ppg", would think "not quite high enough" before thinking “not quite high enough” with regards to "6.4 rpg" or "5.7 apg" is one who knows who Player A and Player B were, and has a stan-driven agenda, which is what is happening here. Because this is what you wrote: "I would rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game." As if that is a golden rule that applies to any situation. Like if one player theoretically averaged 75.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg and 7.2, and the other averaged 80.0 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 5.7 apg, you would still take the second one? Ironic that you’re calling ME emotionally attached, when you’re prepared to take such a blatantly biased stance.
If we were talking about a player who averages 8 points, 15 rebounds and 9 assists, i.e. someone who is a flat out poor scorer vs one who averages 13, 12 and 7.5, then I will admit that the second player might look better to an objective person. But that is not the case here. Nowhere near it.
And oh yeah, on top of all this factual evidence with regards to their averages alone, there is also the fact that Player B's totals absolutely demolish Player A's in all 5 categories, which you, of course, being a Jordan stan and knowing that Player A is Jordan, completely left out when discussing how an objective person might respond to looking at the COMBINATION of Player A's and Player B's averages AND totals. You have no rational, data-based arguments to argue against this. Only stan/hater-backed (mostly in gif form) circle-jerking.
Player B in a landslide.

[Baller789]

blah blah blah

You know they shook to the bones when they start writing novels no one cares about. :roll:
https://i.ibb.co/5K3T2CS/images.jpg (https://ibb.co/kmTKMzw)

[Bronbron23]

We could look at Finals MVPs. We could also look at Finals MVPs won on multiple teams. We could also discuss the quality and not quantity of those Finals MVPs, and how many were won against 73-9 teams while leading every player in the series in every category. We could also make a finals appearances-to-first round exits ratio. But that’s not what this is about. This discussion initially spawned from you bringing up your bullshit Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson comparison in an attempt to shit on LeBron’s by far highest ever playoff point total scored.


Oh, I don't doubt that "you", knowing that Player A is Michael Jordan and being the stan/hater that you are, would say Jordan's numbers are more impressive. And even here you couldn't hide your standom, as you brought up other aspects of their box score than the ones I mentioned, and ones that favor Jordan. If you notice, in my Player A vs Player B comparison, I didn’t mention that Player A’s 4.7 extra points are generated by 4.4 extra shots and 1.0 extra free throw attempt per game, which make the 4.7 extra ppg look way less impressive, in fact not impressive at all, in a should-actually-be-higher-than-only-4.7 kind of way. Yet you conveniently forgot to include that in your addition of other aspects, but you didn’t forget to add the whopping 0.2 offensive rebounds.
And your constant regurgitating of the 0.2 offensive rebounds, which I have already debunked as being unimpressive taking Jordan's extra 3.4 bricks into consideration, just shows how desperately pathetic you are, fighting for scraps to prove Jordan has anything else aside from ppg over LeBron. 0.2 = a number that is as statistically negligible as the 0.3 extra minutes per game Jordan was averaging to boost his averages, which I haven't even brought up yet. And which, adjusted per minute, can only make LeBron's 0.3 mpg inferior averages look more impressive relative to Jordan’s.
To get back to the subject, I was talking about the average, objective fan, who truly didn't know who “Player A” and “Player B” were. And that person would be picking Player B without thinking twice. There is no way in hell that someone, once again only knowing them as Player A and Player B, would look at the 28.7 ppg number Player B is averaging and think to themselves "That ppg looks to be a little low, and could be higher", in comparison to the 6.4 rpg and 5.7 apg. When is the last time you've heard the sentence "He is averaging only 28.7 points"? I mean, in a non-sarcastic way that implies those 28.7 points are actually low? The only time you’ll find such an instance is if that player also averaged 30+ shots per game and only generated 28.7 points out of those 30+ shots.
I did a quick search for what an "average average" for an average NBA player is. And found out that in 2018-19 it was:
10.2 ppg
4.1 rpg
2.0 apg
0.7 apg
0.4 bpg
Feel free to prove that it was radically different than this in Jordan's era, which I know it wasn't.
Anyway, 28.7 is nearly 3 times the league average, and in general good enough to be among the league leaders every year in that category, if not #1 itself on the list some years. Meanwhile Player A's 6.4 rpg is only 1.5 times the league average. It is nowhere near the league leaders. An objective person would be much more inclined to think that the 6.4 rpg is an average that could be higher than a 28.7 ppg average. The same goes for their assist average in relation to the league's "average average".
To stay within the realm of objectivity, show me one instance where a player was criticized for averaging 28.7 ppg, regardless of whether that player is a point guard or a center. I will show you multiple instances where a player was criticized for averaging 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg, in a matter of seconds.
Even if that objective person would compensate for positions, then 6.4 rpg is still only decent at best for a guard and crappy for a PF/C. 5.7 apg might be impressive for a PF/C, but it is mediocre for a G. Meanwhile, 28.7 ppg is impressive regardless of position.
The only person who, after seeing "28.7 ppg", would think "not quite high enough" before thinking “not quite high enough” with regards to "6.4 rpg" or "5.7 apg" is one who knows who Player A and Player B were, and has a stan-driven agenda, which is what is happening here. Because this is what you wrote: "I would rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game." As if that is a golden rule that applies to any situation. Like if one player theoretically averaged 75.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg and 7.2, and the other averaged 80.0 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 5.7 apg, you would still take the second one? Ironic that you’re calling ME emotionally attached, when you’re prepared to take such a blatantly biased stance.
If we were talking about a player who averages 8 points, 15 rebounds and 9 assists, i.e. someone who is a flat out poor scorer vs one who averages 13, 12 and 7.5, then I will admit that the second player might look better to an objective person. But that is not the case here. Nowhere near it.
And oh yeah, on top of all this factual evidence with regards to their averages alone, there is also the fact that Player B's totals absolutely demolish Player A's in all 5 categories, which you, of course, being a Jordan stan and knowing that Player A is Jordan, completely left out when discussing how an objective person might respond to looking at the COMBINATION of Player A's and Player B's averages AND totals. You have no rational, data-based arguments to argue against this. Only stan/hater-backed (mostly in gif form) circle-jerking.
Player B in a landslide.

Holy shit this has to be the longest post ever. You good bruh?

[Axe]

Holy shit this has to be the longest post ever. You good bruh?
:roll:

[TheGoatest]

You know they shook to the bones when they start writing novels no one cares about. :roll:
https://i.ibb.co/5K3T2CS/images.jpg (https://ibb.co/kmTKMzw)

Except a fellow Jordan stan/LeBron hater who keeps replying to them, and who you support when he does.
Example of your Jordan standom-LeBron hypocrisy #453456. :oldlol:

[Baller789]

Except a fellow Jordan stan/LeBron hater who keeps replying to them, and who you support when he does.
Example of your Jordan standom-LeBron hypocrisy #453456. :oldlol:

Jordanstan/Lebronhater = anyone who disagrees with theGoatest. :roll: pathetic

And back to my previous point.

Who here agrees with you methodology?

[TheGoatest]

Jordanstan/Lebronhater = anyone who disagrees with theGoatest. :roll: pathetic

And back to my previous point.

Who here agrees with you methodology?

Jordan stan/LeBron hater: anyone who has a pro-Jordan/anti-LeBron agenda in 10 times out of 10, anyone who supports others who have pro-Jordan/anti LeBron agendas with gifs and such, even if their attack on LeBron is in direct contradiction with their own attack on LeBron, just as long as it is still an attack at LeBron

And you fit this description to perfection.

And the answer to your question: Not Jordan stans/LeBron haters, because its objectivity favors LeBron over Jordan

[Baller789]

Jordan stan/LeBron hater: anyone who has a pro-Jordan/anti-LeBron agenda in 10 times out of 10, anyone who supports others who have pro-Jordan/anti LeBron agendas with gifs and such, even if their attack on LeBron is in direct contradiction with their own attack on LeBron, just as long as it is still an attack at LeBron

And you fit this description to perfection.

And the answer to your question: Not Jordan stans/LeBron haters, because its objectivity favors LeBron over Jordan

So youre basically saying that no one agrees with your methodology.
:yaohappy:

[Airupthere]

Jordan stan/LeBron hater: anyone who has a pro-Jordan/anti-LeBron agenda in 10 times out of 10, anyone who supports others who have pro-Jordan/anti LeBron agendas with gifs and such, even if their attack on LeBron is in direct contradiction with their own attack on LeBron, just as long as it is still an attack at LeBron

And you fit this description to perfection.

And the answer to your question: Not Jordan stans/LeBron haters, because its objectivity favors LeBron over Jordan

Lol the irony of this post. And you are an objective poster?

[TheGoatest]

Lol the irony of this post. And you are an objective poster?

Certainly not in the eyes of a Jordan stan/LeBron hater. I don't doubt that for a second.

[TheGoatest]

So youre basically saying that no one agrees with your methodology.
:yaohappy:

Objective people do, if they would only forget which player is which and look at the facts.

[3ba11]

No one in 3-pointer basketball will ever win 6 titles as the best player like MJ did

And he did so without super-teams or 1b teammates

Ultimately, everyone in history had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for various playoff runs, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced maximum defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[Baller789]

Objective people do, if they would only forget which player is which and look at the facts.

https://i.ibb.co/GV01jcb/images-4.jpg (https://ibb.co/brPynz8)
you mean no one here? (https://whatsmyscreenresolution.com/)

[theman93]

And how do you know that Jordan's teammates didn't average even more FGs/gm while he was on the court to make the 0.2 extra offensive rebounds even less impressive? How do you know what the offensive rebounding situation looked like with regards to LeBron's teammates.
What I do know for a 100% fact is that Jordan himself averaged 3.4 more bricks/potential offensive rebounds per game than LeBron, which is a number that is 17 times higher than the 0.2 actual offensive rebounds in question. And based on that 100% fact alone, regardless of his teammates’ makes/misses, him grabbing 1 offensive rebound out of every one of his 17 own misses on average is flat out not impressive. In fact far from it. Especially considering the energy saved from not going after the 2.8 more defensive rebounds that LeBron averaged on the other end.
I don't and neither do you, which is why your argument is conjecture. You fail to account for 7+ other players so your conclusion is incomplete and bias.

And sure it's impressive, you just can't admit it because your stanning and emotional. The defense is in position to grab more boards because they are closer to the basket when the shot goes up, so offensive rebounds are significantly harder to come by and require way more effort than defensive rebounds. This is exactly why everyone always averages less offensive rebounds by a wide margin.

The fact that Jordan is 2 inches shorter, 50 pounds lighter, and played further from the basket and still averages more offensive rebounds is what makes it so impressive. Lebron only averages more boards on the defensive end (which is to be expected), but doesn't on the offensive end. Advantage Jordan.




And why was he a primary ball-handler? So that his superior to Jordan’s court-vision, once again even admitted by Skip Brainless, could be utilized more. All this is connected to LeBron being the more versatile player overall.
He was the primary ball handler because that's the only way he can effectively operate in the game of basketball. He's never been able to play off-ball in a system.

He simply averages more assists because he shoots less as his teams de facto point guard.

The proof is in the pudding: Jordan only averages 1.5 less assists while taking a whopping 4.7 more shots per game. The Bulls just needed Jordan to shoot more often than pass as the teams only primary offensive weapon. If they needed him to pass more often he easily puts up greater assist averages, it's just not what his team needed on a consistent basis.

Oh and btw, what Skip Bayless says is irrelevant to the discussion. I don't hold his opinions so you continually bringing him up is a strawman.






A 3 pointer will always have a lower percentage of being made than a 2 pointer. Pre-and-post Jordan's era and pre-and-post LeBron's era. And the fact that LeBron maintained a higher overall FG% despite shooting nearly twice as many 3s makes it even more impressive, regardless of era.
And let's not act that players were incapable of shooting a high 3 point percentage in Jordan's era. 6 of the top 10 highest 3pt% seasons for a player ever are from Jordan's era.
In general, it’s hilarious how you suddenly want to bring “era” into what was a purely statistical comparison into the discussion. The same era where 1992-93 Mark Price, 1993-94 Latrell Sprewell and 1996-97 Tim Hardaway made all-NBA 1st teams and the same era where none of Jordan’s rivals he beat in the finals could beat Hakeem + a 14 ppg on 38% shooting in the playoffs 2nd option to win a ring for themselves.
Who said they were incapable? They were very capable. The game being anchored from the 3 point line was just not how basketball was played in the 80's/90's so there was not emphasis put on practicing the 3 religiously like it is today. Back then, the post and midrange was the focus with certain players specializing in the 3.




Let me get this straight: When I bring up the fact that Jordan took 4.4 more shots to score 4.7 more points, you want to go into a deep discussion about “contextualizing shot efficiency”, etc. But when you bring up the fact that Jordan averaged 4.7 more points, you just expect this to hang, without someone bringing up the fact that he did it on 4.4 more shots? You’d like that, wouldn’t you? :lol
The bottom line is that LeBron generated a higher efficiency from the shots that he took than Jordan did from the shots he took.
No, I explained both. Jordan averages more points on more difficult shots that are less efficient. A higher FG% is maintained by Lebron because half of his shots come within 10 ft of the basket.




If you think that 34.4% on 2.3 3PA is more impressive than 33.7% on 4.8 3PA, then feel free to do so. Because it’s not. And it’s certainly not as mathematically efficient. Aside from this, we then also have to factor in Jordan’s horrible .308 3pt percentage (on 3.4 3PA) in the 3 playoff runs between 1995 and 1998 should factor in on his otherwise good reputation as a good shooter of long 2 pointers.
Woah there little guy. You are the one who wanted to contextualize the 3 point line being shortened from 95-97, not me. So I agreed to go by your standard. Don’t move the goalposts now :lol

You were completely fine comparing their 3 point percentages while also knowing their attempts before. But now that you know Jordan shoots a better % from the traditional 3 point line you say it’s not impressive because of so many less attempts? Newsflash retard: Jordan attempted significantly less 3’s whichever way you slice it LMAO.

34.4 > 33.7 :lol


It took LeBron 266 playoff games to reach 7631 playoff points.
It took Jordan 179 games to reach 5987 playoff points.
Those are the facts we know.
How many games it would’ve taken Jordan to reach 7631 we’ll never know. You can say that reaching 5987 points in 179 games is more impressive than reaching 7631 playoff points in 266 games. But you will do so because of your standom and not because it is objectively more impressive, as can be demonstrated by the uniqueness of the 7631 total compared to the 33.4 average in historical context.
I’ve already proven that within the context of the two, there is historically a bigger discrepancy between the 7631 point total and 5987 point total than the 33.4 ppg average and a 28.7 average, something that you attempted to mock and failed miserably. And I’ve only compared it to LeBron’s average. This discrepancy becomes even larger if I was to include the historical context of Jordan’s 33.4 ppg compared to Allen Iverson’s 29.7 or Durant’s 29.5 playoff ppg average.
The other fact we know is that Lebron took 212 games to reach 5,987 points whereas it only took Jordan 179 games. Advantage Jordan.

And your sorry methodology also leads you to conclude guys like Dennis Johnson and Jeff Hornacek are more impressive playoff scorers than Carmelo Anthony and Tracy McGrady, which literally nobody agrees with. Nobody besides you uses this random bunk ass methodology as a standard besides you. Your methodology holds 0 weight.

[theman93]

I compared their entire careers based on what actually happened and not an assumption on what would’ve happened. Jordan has two more Finals MVPs, but in addition to the 4 Finals MVPs LeBron has, he has had 4 more finals series that are unquestionably statistically superior than 2 of Jordan’s Finals MVP series.
Jordan’s FGAs, FTAs, steals are the only things that come out on top.
His point total should be way closer to LeBron’s considering how many more shots he took.
It took LeBron 4496 field goal attempts to reach 6163 playoff points
It took Jordan 4497 field goal attempts to reach 5987 playoff points.
In other words, LeBron is the more efficient scorer (let alone rebounder/passer) who scored more points on less shots.
And Lebron has the 2 unquestionably statistically inferior Finals series. Btw, what happened to your boy in 2011? I think there’s still sh*t stains on his draws :lol. Jordan never performed that poorly in any series or was outplayed that clearly by another player in any series. Explain to us what happened.

Al Horford is a more efficient scorer than Lebron. He also attempts more shots that are further from the basket than Lebron. Is he a better scorer?

Serge Ibaka is a more efficient scorer than Lebron. He also attempts more shots that are further from the basket than Lebron. Is he a better scorer?

The answer is no. The same is true for Jordan and Lebron.

Jordan is the superior scorer. Period the end.


No, only a retard would bring up a player whose place in the all-time rankings is 90% based on his regular season accomplishments in a playoff related discussion, vs a player whose reputation is about 50-50 between regular season and playoffs, so that retard could in desperation try to get himself out of a hole he dug himself into.
You might as well have brought up Zion Williamson. He averaged 27 points on 61% in 33 minutes, over 61 games last regular season. Now go on an NBA panel and mention his name and these impressive numbers in a conversation about NBA’s all-time great playoff scorers. See how far that gets you.
Stick to your standard. You said if a player’s % difference in total points is greater than their average they are a more impressive playoff scorer. It shouldn’t matter what example I bring up. You can either stick to your standard or move the goal post...and you’re moving the goal post.

In case you haven’t noticed we’re talking post season. Zion Williamson hasn’t made the post season retard.



Just like I predicted and wrote in my previous post = once again found the most extreme example you could find of a player whose all-time ranking is 90% based on his regular season accomplishments in hope that this general, heavily regular season-based reputation will somehow make his crappy playoff accomplishments look better, then compare that player to a player whose role doesn't compare to begin with. Yet despite all this I could STILL once again top that example and find one based on general ppg that looks more ridiculous:
Luol Deng averaged twice the playoff ppg of Robert Horry and Derek Fisher.
Did you know that not only is Luol Deng a better playoff scorer than two of the biggest clutch scorers in playoff history with 12 rings between them, but that he is literally TWICE the playoff scorer as them? Josh Howard is also about twice the playoff scorer either of the two were. Then there's Danillo Gallinari, Josh Smith, Thurl Bailey, Monta Ellis, Alvan Adams, Trevor Ariza, Jeff Teague, Bryon Russell, Lionel Hollins, Happy Hairston, Keith Erickson, Robert Reid and J.J. Redick, who are all also considerably better playoff scorers than either Robert Horry or Derek Fisher.
You may have to look some of those names up on basketball-reference.com due to never having heard of them, but once you do so, you will see that their playoff ppg is still higher than Horry's or Fisher's, and that's what really matters. GOAT gonna GOAT indeed.
I didn’t even have to try to find that example. Your methodology is literally just that retarded.

And Horry and Fisher were not even good playoff scorers lmao. Everyone single one of those guys you rattled are better playoff scorers than those two. And even if you don’t want to admit that, they are at the very least comparable - unlike Dennis Johnson vs Carmelo and Jeff Hornacek vs Tracy McGrady.

Btw, how did Jordan in back to back years beat Malone, Stockton, and Hornacek (the more impressive playoff scorer than McGrady)? You’re absolutely right, GOAT gonna GOAT.

[Baller789]

Man I admire your patience responding to that emotionally charged clown. :applause::applause::applause::applause:

[theman93]

Man I admire your patience responding to that emotionally charged clown. :applause::applause::applause::applause:

I'm about to ether him again in about 20 minutes here

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs.aficionados.com.br%2Fimagens%2F top-socao.gif&f=1&nofb=1

[theman93]

We could look at Finals MVPs. We could also look at Finals MVPs won on multiple teams. We could also discuss the quality and not quantity of those Finals MVPs, and how many were won against 73-9 teams while leading every player in the series in every category. We could also make a finals appearances-to-first round exits ratio. But that’s not what this is about. This discussion initially spawned from you bringing up your bullshit Dennis Johnson-Allen Iverson comparison in an attempt to shit on LeBron’s by far highest ever playoff point total scored.
We could also look at the reason Lebron won 4 FMVP’s on multiple teams was because he had to continue hopping to different teams and couldn't win with Cleveland his first go around. Unlike Jordan who won it 6 times with the same franchise.

We could also discuss that that 73-9 Warrior team was significantly weakened with Iggy and Curry being hobbled, Bogut getting injured, and Draymond getting suspended.

We could also make a Finals won to playoffs outright missed ratio.

We could also discuss that Jordan never lost Finals MVP one time in his six Finals appearances, while Lebron lost Finals MVP six times, four of which were to his primary assignment.

6 FMVP's > 4 FMVP's

And the Johnson to Iverson total point comparison is full on proof that just because you total more points doesn’t make you a better or more “impressive” scorer. By your standard one of these is true: Either Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Allen Iverson, or Dennis Johnson is a better playoff scorer than Carmelo Anthony. Which one is it?


Oh, I don't doubt that "you", knowing that Player A is Michael Jordan and being the stan/hater that you are, would say Jordan's numbers are more impressive. And even here you couldn't hide your standom, as you brought up other aspects of their box score than the ones I mentioned, and ones that favor Jordan. If you notice, in my Player A vs Player B comparison, I didn’t mention that Player A’s 4.7 extra points are generated by 4.4 extra shots and 1.0 extra free throw attempt per game, which make the 4.7 extra ppg look way less impressive, in fact not impressive at all, in a should-actually-be-higher-than-only-4.7 kind of way. Yet you conveniently forgot to include that in your addition of other aspects, but you didn’t forget to add the whopping 0.2 offensive rebounds.
And being the stan/hater you are, you would say Lebron's number are more impressive. What's the difference?

In your comparison you also didn't mention that Player B passes more which leads to more assists. You also didn't mention Player B weighs more, is taller, and plays closer to the basket which leads to more rebounds. You also didn't mention Player B averages more turnovers. You also didn't mention Player B is worse from the foul line. Which way do you want to slice this?



And your constant regurgitating of the 0.2 offensive rebounds, which I have already debunked as being unimpressive taking Jordan's extra 3.4 bricks into consideration, just shows how desperately pathetic you are, fighting for scraps to prove Jordan has anything else aside from ppg over LeBron. 0.2 = a number that is as statistically negligible as the 0.3 extra minutes per game Jordan was averaging to boost his averages, which I haven't even brought up yet. And which, adjusted per minute, can only make LeBron's 0.3 mpg inferior averages look more impressive relative to Jordan’s.
To get back to the subject, I was talking about the average, objective fan, who truly didn't know who “Player A” and “Player B” were. And that person would be picking Player B without thinking twice. There is no way in hell that someone, once again only knowing them as Player A and Player B, would look at the 28.7 ppg number Player B is averaging and think to themselves "That ppg looks to be a little low, and could be higher", in comparison to the 6.4 rpg and 5.7 apg. When is the last time you've heard the sentence "He is averaging only 28.7 points"? I mean, in a non-sarcastic way that implies those 28.7 points are actually low? The only time you’ll find such an instance is if that player also averaged 30+ shots per game and only generated 28.7 points out of those 30+ shots.
I did a quick search for what an "average average" for an average NBA player is. And found out that in 2018-19 it was:
10.2 ppg
4.1 rpg
2.0 apg
0.7 apg
0.4 bpg
I'm the one fighting for scraps when you're the one making up random methodologies on the fly to push your narrative? :lol. The only thing you've debunked is that your objective because you failed to account for 7+ other players in relation to offensive rebound opportunities in order to make your boy look more impressive. Nobody's falling for it nerd.

Jordan averages more points, more offensive rebounds, more steals, and less turnovers.

Lebron averages more assists, more defensive rebounds, and more turnovers.

They equal each other in blocks.

Based on those averages I would rather have the player who gives me more points, second chance opportunities, turns the ball over less, and is better on the defensive end - as more steals and equal blocks tells me he's likely better (which Jordan is).

And who says who would choose what? You certainly don't. This is your opinion, not a fact. Your entire point is moot.

[theman93]

Feel free to prove that it was radically different than this in Jordan's era, which I know it wasn't.
Anyway, 28.7 is nearly 3 times the league average, and in general good enough to be among the league leaders every year in that category, if not #1 itself on the list some years. Meanwhile Player A's 6.4 rpg is only 1.5 times the league average. It is nowhere near the league leaders. An objective person would be much more inclined to think that the 6.4 rpg is an average that could be higher than a 28.7 ppg average. The same goes for their assist average in relation to the league's "average average".
To stay within the realm of objectivity, show me one instance where a player was criticized for averaging 28.7 ppg, regardless of whether that player is a point guard or a center. I will show you multiple instances where a player was criticized for averaging 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg, in a matter of seconds.
Even if that objective person would compensate for positions, then 6.4 rpg is still only decent at best for a guard and crappy for a PF/C. 5.7 apg might be impressive for a PF/C, but it is mediocre for a G. Meanwhile, 28.7 ppg is impressive regardless of position.
The only person who, after seeing "28.7 ppg", would think "not quite high enough" before thinking “not quite high enough” with regards to "6.4 rpg" or "5.7 apg" is one who knows who Player A and Player B were, and has a stan-driven agenda, which is what is happening here. Because this is what you wrote: "I would rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game." As if that is a golden rule that applies to any situation. Like if one player theoretically averaged 75.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg and 7.2, and the other averaged 80.0 ppg, 6.4 rpg and 5.7 apg, you would still take the second one? Ironic that you’re calling ME emotionally attached, when you’re prepared to take such a blatantly biased stance.
If we were talking about a player who averages 8 points, 15 rebounds and 9 assists, i.e. someone who is a flat out poor scorer vs one who averages 13, 12 and 7.5, then I will admit that the second player might look better to an objective person. But that is not the case here. Nowhere near it.
And oh yeah, on top of all this factual evidence with regards to their averages alone, there is also the fact that Player B's totals absolutely demolish Player A's in all 5 categories, which you, of course, being a Jordan stan and knowing that Player A is Jordan, completely left out when discussing how an objective person might respond to looking at the COMBINATION of Player A's and Player B's averages AND totals. You have no rational, data-based arguments to argue against this. Only stan/hater-backed (mostly in gif form) circle-jerking.
Player B in a landslide.
Lol ok, tell me. When has a shooting guard been criticized for averaging 6.4 rpg or 5.7 apg?

And yes, I would absolutely rather have the player who gives me 4.7 more points per game than a player who gives me 1.5 more assists per game and 2.6 more rebound per game. 4.7 more points, 2.6 less rebounds, and 1.5 less assists is the same discrepancy at any total LOL. You're 75.4/9.0/7.2 vs 80/6.4/5.7 example is the same difference as what their averages show now. That was a dumbass example and didn't prove anything lol. It's only a wrong opinion to you because of your Lebron love affair.

You are not the arbiter of what an objective fan would choose between their averages. You don't know what someone would or wouldn't choose. This is a meaningless, irrelevant, and moot point. You wasted your time.

At the end of the day though what does all this debating mean? What is the point? What is the end goal for the GOAT?

Winning and being recognized as the best player en route to championships.

6/6/6 > 4/10/4

6/13>4/15