Why did Lebron only have one 60-win team w/ super-teams or 2-star teams from 11-22'?

[3ba11]

(best 2nd option in conference in 18' and 20-22')

This proves that he doesn't know how to play good basketball.

So he's the biggest fraud in the history of sports - a loser that is considered a goat candidate.

A 6'9" Westbrooker that people think is good despite a clear inability to have great teams regardless of supporting cast

[FromDowntown]

he ran into chef curry and got stopped four times

15' 17' 18' 19'

[Airupthere]

Goat chef - best player of the era

Curry has actually largely influenced a winning culture with the warriors. Him, klay and dray all rose up together. Post KD now we see that whether KD had joined or not, the warriors would have been quite competitive still.

Meanwhile Lebron recruits, depletes, then jumps ship.

[ShawkFactory]

We’re only talking about the super team part? Like the two 60+ win seasons without them count for naught?

[3ba11]

We’re only talking about the super team part? Like the two 60+ win seasons without them count for naught?


We can't include the 60-win seasons from 09' or 10' because the 08' Cavs were bummy 45-win team until Mo arrived to make them league favorites (66 wins) by providing the critical spacing that blew their offense and defense wide open.. The Cavs' jumped to top 5 on offense and defense because they added a player that was higher across the board than 1990 Pippen (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

Btw, I say that Mo blew the offense AND defense wide open because the Cavs' vastly improved offense wore out teams defensively, so opponents had less capacity to go off offensively - the best defense is a good offense, a tenet of all competition.. So the addition of Mo gave the Cavs a viable offense that allowed them to win the attrition battle..

Furthermore, in 2010, Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite in a conference that was just won by a 1-star team (Dwight).

[ShawkFactory]

We can't include the 60-win seasons from 09' or 10' because the 08' Cavs were bummy 45-win team until Mo arrived to make them league favorites (66 wins) by providing the critical spacing that blew their offense and defense wide open.. The Cavs' jumped to top 5 on offense and defense because they added a player that was higher across the board than 1990 Pippen (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

Btw, I say that Mo blew the offense AND defense wide open because the Cavs' vastly improved offense wore out teams defensively, so opponents had less capacity to go off offensively - the best defense is a good offense, a tenet of all competition.. So the addition of Mo gave the Cavs a viable offense that allowed them to win the attrition battle..

Furthermore, in 2010, Jamison/Shaq were added to a 66-win league favorite in a conference that was just won by a 1-star team (Dwight).
Ok so you’re talking about 60 win seasons with super teams but then saying 09 and 10 don’t count because he had...borderline super teams? Do you listen to yourself?

[3ba11]

Ok so you’re talking about 60 win seasons with super teams but then saying 09 and 10 don’t count because he had...borderline super teams? Do you listen to yourself?


If Lebron had won 60 or even close to 60 before Mo arrived, then maybe you'd have a point, but Mo is clearly what took them to the next level - he was the only roster change and his "better-than-pippen" production was more than 3 times what he replaced (Pavlovic) - he tripled the win contribution of that guard spot, and the WAY he did it (spacing) provided synergies

[ShawkFactory]

3ball: Lebron only won 60 games ONCE with super teams

Shawk: he won 60+ in 09 and 10

3ball: those don’t count because his teammates were good

Just read it back.

[3ba11]

3ball: Lebron only won 60 games ONCE with super teams

Shawk: he won 60+ in 09 and 10

3ball: those don’t count because his teammates were good

Just read it back.


Mo's skillset allowed them to run a D'Antoni-style simpleton offense (lebron was Nash) and achieve similar results (regular season favorite but upset in playoffs).

Otoh, Lebron failed to win 60 with super-teams because that simpleton offense doesn't work with a bunch of superstars... MORE SKILL is needed to fit with other stars (elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball production capability).

[ShawkFactory]

Mo's skillset allowed them to run a D'Antoni-style simpleton offense and achieve similar results (regular season favorite but upset in playoffs).

Lebron failed to win 60 with super-teams because that simpleton offense doesn't work with a bunch of superstars

The 09 and 10 Cavs ran a D’antoni-style offense? That’s new I though Bron was a ball-dominator slow pace kind of guy that allows defenses to rest.

Very interdastin..

[sdot_thadon]

Probably means the "super" teams weren't as "super" as you thought and especially not as "super" as other guys' teams in the past.....

[3ba11]

The 09 and 10 Cavs ran a D’antoni-style offense? That’s new I though Bron was a ball-dominator slow pace kind of guy that allows defenses to rest.

Very interdastin..


It wasn't as fast-paced as D'Antoni, but it's premise was the same - it used a "1-4" format where Lebron was Nash (the ball-dominator) and screen-rolls are run to feed shooters that surrounded him

Otoh, Lebron failed to win 60 with super-teams because that simpleton offense doesn't work with a bunch of superstars... MORE SKILL is needed to fit with other stars (elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball production capability).

[ShawkFactory]

It wasn't as fast-paced as D'Antoni, but it's premise was the same - it used a "1-4" format where Lebron was Nash (the ball-dominator) and screen-rolls are run to feed shooters that surrounded him

Otoh, Lebron failed to win 60 with super-teams because that simpleton offense doesn't work with a bunch of superstars... MORE SKILL is needed to fit with other stars (elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball production capability).

You’re a grown man. Have some respect for yourself.

[3ba11]

You’re a grown man. Have some respect for yourself.


^^^ another balls-less deflection

Those Cavs ran a ball-dominator offense just like Nash, Westbrook, Harden, CP3, 1990 Magic (no kareem), etc... Otoh, Lebron failed to win 60 with super-teams because that simpleton offense doesn't work with a bunch of superstars... MORE SKILL is needed to fit with other stars (elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball production capability).

It's funny because Spo actually tried to play Lebron off-ball a little bit - Lebron was so weak at it so they were still weren't great teams

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[3ba11]

Probably means the "super" teams weren't as "super" as you thought and especially not as "super" as other guys' teams in the past.....



2010 Wade.... 28 PER.... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe..... 21 PER.... 4.4 BPM


In 2010, Wade was the #2 producer in the league across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

So teaming up with him is like Magic teaming up with the #2 player (Bird) and then adding a top 3 PF as well.. Wade remained top 5 in everything through 2012.

Ultimately, the stats confirm that prime Wade was a Kobe/Bird/Lebron/MJ-caliber player and these guys are basically never 2nd options, so Lebron had unprecedented help (hence the "not 6, not 7" expectation).

[2ball]

LeBron lacked the offensive skill set to win with those super teams. Mo was more than enough but LeBron lacked the offensive fortitude to take them over the top

[Johnny32]

because legoat figured out a long time ago (unlike jordone who was forced to retire twice due to mental and physical exhaustion by the age of 35) that the regular season doesn't mean shit.

[SouBeachTalents]

2010 Wade.... 28 PER.... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe..... 21 PER.... 4.4 BPM


In 2010, Wade was the #2 producer in the league across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

So teaming up with him is like Magic teaming up with the #2 player (Bird) and then adding a top 3 PF as well.. Wade remained top 5 in everything through 2012.

Ultimately, the stats confirm that prime Wade was a Kobe/Bird/Lebron/MJ-caliber player and these guys are basically never 2nd options, so Lebron had unprecedented help (hence the "not 6, not 7" expectation).
So advanced stats are the end all be all here, but LeBron who’s top 2-5 in virtually every advanced stat is outside the top 10, while Kobe who’s not even top 25 in any advanced metric is 2nd all time. Fakkit :lol

[WhiteKyrie]

he ran into chef curry and got stopped four times

15' 17' 18' 19'

He got DINGOed by a light skin suburb kid who can’t even dunk? Born at the same hospital in Akron? Damn, no wonder he has so much resentment for the Chef.

[SouBeachTalents]

He got DINGOed by a light skin suburb kid who can’t even dunk? Born at the same hospital in Akron? Damn, no wonder he has so much resentment for the Chef.
Curry >>> Isiah, who sent Jordan’s ass packing 3 seasons in a row. Curry had to call in KD to beat LeBron.

[3ba11]

So advanced stats are the end all be all here, but LeBron who’s top 2-5 in virtually every advanced stat is outside the top 10, while Kobe who’s not even top 25 in any advanced metric is 2nd all time. Fakkit :lol


Only 1st options dictate the team's style of play (teams must maximize their best player and therefore usually revolve the offense around them)

So as a 2nd option to Lebron, statistical production is all that matters for Wade, whereas we have consider Lebron's suboptimal style/skillset because he's a 1st option that dictates style of play

[WhiteKyrie]

Curry >>> Isiah, who sent Jordan’s ass packing 3 seasons in a row. Curry had to call in KD to beat LeBron.

Nah. Curry won his rings with much greater talent around him once they acquired MVP level Durant. Zeke never had a player as good or better than himself playing next to him, the way Curry had KD.

Zeke had a Finals MVP and Curry has nadda. Zeke also has a legendary finals performance, or they came just shy of winning what would’ve been their first of three championships. Curry doesn’t have something like that either

Hell, Kyrie outplayed Curry in head to heads in the Finals. 2015 game one before his injury, and the whole 2016 Finals.

And Mike curb stomped and swept that Zeke Pistons team once his mentally fragile running mate stopped getting pressure induced migraines.

Zeke was like prime Kyrie and prime CP3 combined in terms of skill set and playing style and overall impact.

1) Magic
2) Zeke
3) Curry (no Finals MVPs but rings)
4) CP3

5) Nash or Stockton or Kidd or GP

[theman93]

because legoat figured out a long time ago (unlike jordone who was forced to retire twice due to mental and physical exhaustion by the age of 35) that the regular season doesn't mean shit.

So he saved all that energy for the playoffs only to be eliminated 11/15 times he was able to make it?

[3ba11]

So he saved all that energy for the playoffs only to be eliminated 11/15 times he was able to make it?


Boom ..


And for many of those Playoffs, Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he didn't face or defeat max defensive attention, which is easier than Jordan always defeating max attention by virtue of carrying the load in 6/6 Finals (low-producing teammates nowhere near him statistically, so all eyes on him)

[SouBeachTalents]

Nah. Curry won his rings with much greater talent around him once they acquired MVP level Durant. Zeke never had a player as good or better than himself playing next to him, the way Curry had KD.

Zeke had a Finals MVP and Curry has nadda. Zeke also has a legendary finals performance, or they came just shy of winning what would’ve been their first of three championships. Curry doesn’t have something like that either

Hell, Kyrie outplayed Curry in head to heads in the Finals. 2015 game one before his injury, and the whole 2016 Finals.

And Mike curb stomped and swept that Zeke Pistons team once his mentally fragile running mate stopped getting pressure induced migraines.

Zeke was like prime Kyrie and prime CP3 combined in terms of skill set and playing style and overall impact.

1) Magic
2) Zeke
3) Curry (no Finals MVPs but rings)
4) CP3

5) Nash or Stockton or Kidd or GP
Curry’s a soon to be 3x MVP and (possibly) 3x scoring champ, and has been a top 2-5 player 7 seasons in a row when healthy. Isiah was simply not on that level, ever, in his career. You’d have to disregard basic facts to ignore this point.

And I’m in full agreement with you about Steph’s chips, it never made sense to me that Durant’s titles are completely disregarded while Curry gets full credit, there’s absolutely no consistency there. But the gap in production, advanced metrics & accolades is so significant it’s legitimately ludicrous to argue Isiah above Curry imo, either on a peak or all time basis.

[outofstomach]

So he saved all that energy for the playoffs only to be eliminated 11/15 times he was able to make it?

lock the thread it’s over :lol

[Airupthere]

So he saved all that energy for the playoffs only to be eliminated 11/15 times he was able to make it?

:lebronamazed:

:hammertime::hammertime::hammertime:

[ShawkFactory]

So he saved all that energy for the playoffs only to be eliminated 11/15 times he was able to make it?

After 2013 or so he clearly didn’t care about the regular season. I mean...you were there, no?

[3ba11]

After 2013 or so he clearly didn’t care about the regular season. I mean...you were there, no?


That feeling you have right now... Is the feeling of being destroyed

[ShawkFactory]

That feeling you have right now... Is the feeling of being destroyed

Quite the opposite. I just closed a pretty big contract I’ve been working on for a minute and celebrated with some coworkers over margs at lunch. Now I’m just killing time.

I’m a little frustrated with the Hawks but whatever.

[3ba11]

Quite the opposite. I just closed a pretty big contract I’ve been working on for a minute and celebrated with some coworkers over margs at lunch. Now I’m just killing time.

I’m a little frustrated with the Hawks but whatever.


Haha and you care so much about getting destroyed in the argument and/or insecure in general to promote your boring lapdog personal life

[ShawkFactory]

Haha and you care so much about getting destroyed in the argument and/or insecure in general to promote your boring lapdog personal life

I’m not promoting anything. Just describing the situation.

You seem to care about who is being destroyed here way more than I do

[3ba11]

I’m not promoting anything. Just describing the situation.

You seem to care about who is being destroyed here way more than I do


I'm having fun like I always do on here and you seem defensive

[SouBeachTalents]

I’m not promoting anything. Just describing the situation.

You seem to care about who is being destroyed here way more than I do
Bro, you got fcking WRECKT

[ShawkFactory]

I'm having fun like I always do on here and you seem defensive

You ARE human!

:cheers:

[Johnny32]

So he saved all that energy for the playoffs only to be eliminated 11/15 times he was able to make it?

legoat went to 8 straight finals with this strategy. jordone was forced to retire twice due to mental and physical exhaustion after only 3 straight.

[3ba11]

legoat went to 8 straight finals with this strategy. jordone was forced to retire twice due to mental and physical exhaustion after only 3 straight.


Jordan won 6 titles by winning 60+ and winning the Finals, while Lebron does neither (no 60 wins, mostly Finals losses)

[FireDavidKahn]

GOAT era.

LeGOAT faced the toughest competition in history.

[Johnny32]

Jordan won 6 titles by winning 60+ and winning the Finals, while Lebron does neither (no 60 wins, mostly Finals losses)

jordone faced an opponent whose second option scored 10 ppg in the finals and the entire team scored 54 points in a gm. all eras are clearly not created equal. mid 90s is one of the worst.

[Baller789]

jordone faced an opponent whose second option scored 10 ppg in the finals and the entire team scored 54 points in a gm. all eras are clearly not created equal. mid 90s is one of the worst.

Still doesn't excuse the fact Lebron played in a whimpy conference and gets anhilated in the Finals with his inferior brand of basketball 6/10 times.

[BigShotBob]

Still doesn't excuse the fact Lebron played in a whimpy conference and gets anhilated in the Finals with his inferior brand of basketball 6/10 times.

Lebron went against Rodney Stuckey in the first round when he was on the Heat. How did he survive in such a brutal era?

[SaintzFury13]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that the 09 Cavaliers ran a D'Antoni-style of offense.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron went against Rodney Stuckey in the first round when he was on the Heat. How did he survive in such a brutal era?
He actually didn't

[RRR3]

OP fails to mention that LeBron certainly wins 60 games if the 19-20 season wasn’t interrupted and has a good chance of doing it if the 2012 season wasn’t shortened as well. Snivelball :facepalm