Comparing Lebron's top 13 seasons to Jordan's Bulls career (13 seasons)

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

85-98' JORDAN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1998-sum:advanced).... 29.1 per... 10.2 bpm.. 0.274 ws/48... 110.6 vorp on 35,887 minutes
06-18' LEBRON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2018-sum:advanced).... 28.6 per..... 9.6 bpm.. 0.254 ws/48... 110.7 vorp on 37,788 minutes


Playoffs

85-98' JORDAN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced).... 28.6 per... 11.1 bpm.. 0.255 ws/48... 24.7 vorp on 7474 minutes
06-18' LEBRON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2006-2018-sum:playoffs_advanced).... 28.2 per... 10.2 bpm.. 0.244 ws/48... 30.8 vorp on 10,049 minutes*

* 33% higher minutes but only 25% higher vorp


Jordan won twice the rings with 1 less all-star teammate.

Furthermore, for various playoff runs, Lebron had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore didn't face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention are inflated stats compared to MJ, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[Round Mound]

We all know MJ is GOAT. Why waste your time arguing this. Lebron is a great player himself though.

[3ba11]

We all know MJ is GOAT. Why waste your time arguing this. Lebron is a great player himself though.


After Mo Williams improved a 45-win trash team to 66 wins and league favorite status, Lebron lost with this league favorite to a 1-star team (dwight), and then lost again as a massive favorite to a Rondo-led team despite Jamison/Shaq being added to the 66-win league favorite..

Lebron would've been just another losing ball-dominator like Harden, CP3, Westbrook, or Nash if he didn't form super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning..

He can't even carry the scoring load on the Finals level or beat top teams with bed-wetting teammates (no carry-jobs against good teams) because his high scoring/volume is too ball-dominant or inefficient to beat top teams (6'9" westbrooker).. So people simply have a double-standard by giving props to Lebron for westbrooking in the 15' Finals and taking a team 6 games, but knocking Westbrook for losing in a similar fashion.

[zeerghit]

we all know mj is goat. Why waste your time arguing this. Lebron is a great player himself though.

no hes not

[3ba11]

no hes not


Lebron never evolved out of offenses that revolve around him and therefore never learned how to elevate teammates to WIN (organic).. So Lebron only learned to team-hop and never learned to WIN (organic).

Furthermore, his lack of elite jumpshooting skill or pure scoring ability hurt his ability to "pop off", command doubles, close possessions without dominating the ball (quick offenses), elevate teammates (off-ball) or defeat maximum defensive attention..

Specifically, on numerous playoff runs, he had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore didn't face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention are inflated stats compared to MJ, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[zeerghit]

Lebron never evolved out of offenses that revolve around him and therefore never learned how to elevate teammates to WIN (organic).. So Lebron only learned to team-hop and never learned to WIN (organic).

Furthermore, his lack of elite jumpshooting skill or pure scoring ability hurt his ability to "pop off", command doubles, close possessions without dominating the ball (quick offenses) or defeat maximum defensive attention..

Specifically, on numerous playoff runs, he had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore didn't face maximum defensive attention - any period withoutt maximum defensive attention are inflated stats compared to MJ, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

im not reading that garbage, hes not end of story.

[SouBeachTalents]

So you make a thread showing Jordan & LeBron are neck and neck in literally every category :lol

This is a classic example of 3ball cherrypicking a specific criteria to meet his agenda when it's convenient for him to do so. Jordan has a miniscule edge over LeBron in advanced metrics, so that means he's better. But LeBron having the same exact advantage over literally every other player in history, and by a much more substantial margin, that doesn't mean shit lol.

If you did this comparison with the other players in your "top 10" not only would none of them come close to Jordan, but LeBron would wipe the floor with them too.

[kawhileonard2]

One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty. The other switched teams and still lost.

[Baller789]

One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty. The other switched teams and still lost.

Ouch

[AirBonner]

MJ didn’t play 19 seasons. MJ retired to preserve stats

[TheCorporation]

One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty. The other switched teams and still lost.

Scottie Pippen? Word.

[BigShotBob]

Scottie Pippen? Word.

What happens to Lebron's legacy if he never left Cleveland?

No dip....

No chip

[3ba11]

So you make a thread showing Jordan & LeBron are neck and neck in literally every category :lol

This is a classic example of 3ball cherrypicking a specific criteria to meet his agenda when it's convenient for him to do so. Jordan has a miniscule edge over LeBron in advanced metrics, so that means he's better. But LeBron having the same exact advantage over literally every other player in history, and by a much bigger margin, that doesn't mean shit lol.

If you did this comparison with the other players in your "top 10" not only would none of them come close to Jordan, but LeBron would wipe the floor with them.


Lebron's stats are inflated compared to Jordan's by not facing maximum defensive attention during numerous playoff runs (he had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention).

In addition to inflation from facing less defensive attention/burden, Lebron's stats represent an inferior way of playing that wins less, specifically a westbrooking style that needs an extra all-star teammate to win, or a teammate to out-produce him (AD) - Lebron never won without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer (never won without super-teams or 1b's) because he can't actually carry the scoring load in the Finals or carry bed-wetting teammates against the best teams (never beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick).

Furthermore, people wonder why Lebron's teams seemingly play bad defense all the time (why opponents like Spurs/Mavs/Warriors/Magic are always going "off") but that's just because ball-dominance lets the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively.. that's why ball-dominance is inferior strategy to ball movement, which wears down defenses and wins the battle of attrition.. The best defense is a good offense, a tenet of all competition..

Ultimately, Lebron never learned to take his team's offenses to #1 level or dynasty level or consistent Finals favorite level because ball-dominance doesn't win the attrition battle as a primary attack.. Unfortunately, Lebron lacks the elite jumpshooting skill to control the game when needed as an assist target, which elevates teammate role and promotes the kind of ball movement that wins the attrition battle.

[Johnny32]

We all know MJ is GOAT. Why waste your time arguing this. Lebron is a great player himself though.

lebron scores more efficiently, much better playmaker, much better rebounder, and a far more versatile defender. but hurrr, jordan's the goat cuz muh nostalgia.

[Airupthere]

One guy turned a losing organization into a dynasty. The other switched teams and still lost.

:lebronamazed:

[3ba11]

lebron scores more efficiently,





Lebron scores a lot less and takes less jumpers, so his shooting efficiency is slightly better, but shooting efficiency falls under the umbrella of efficiency per possession (ortg), where MJ's was higher.. So MJ had better efficiency despite higher burden (usage, ppg, percentage of team pts).

In addition to having superior efficiency per possession despite greater burden, Jordan scored far more per game despite less time of possession (hold-time) - Jordan scored almost immediately by barely dribbling or wasting time, which gave teammates more time with the ball and elevated their role... Otoh, Lebron's long hold-time (ball-dominance) reduces teammates to spot-up shooter.. Long hold times that reduce teammates isn't "efficient"

And Jordan got more assists than Lebron per minute of hold-time - he probably assisted at twice the rate of Lebron when we consider hold-time, while also having a skillset (off-ball, ball movement) that yielded higher TEAM assists.

Finally, Lebron doesn't play good defense (no all& defense in almost 10 yrs), so who cares if he guards multiple positions if it's bad defense.. And he can't guard Klay, Rip Hamilton or Reggie Miller (SG's), nor can he guard centers - so he can only guard 3 positions like MJ (who guards the 1-3 spots)

[AirBonner]

MJ in season 19?

[3ba11]

MJ in season 19?


MJ was dropping 51 and 45 in back-to-back games and hitting 3 game winners at 38 years old, while also being 1 of 3 guys getting 25/5/5 before the injury (Kobe, Tmac, MJ).

So where are Lebron's game-winners? Where are his 40 and 50 point games - and he's only 37... Jordan was still dropping 40 at 40

[AirBonner]

MJ was dropping 51 and 45 in back-to-back games and hitting 3 game winners at 38 years old, while also being 1 of 3 guys getting 25/5/5 before the injury (Kobe, Tmac, MJ).

So where are Lebron's game-winners? Where are his 40 and 50 point games - and he's only 37... Jordan was still dropping 40 at 40

So you comparing 2 games to an entire season?

[Johnny32]

Lebron scores a lot less

27 ppg reg season. 29 ppg postseason. on pace to be the all time leading scorer. and doing it all more efficiently than jordone ever could.

[3ba11]

27 ppg reg season. 29 ppg postseason. on pace to be the all time leading scorer. and doing it all more efficiently than jordone ever could.


33.45 - 28.7 = 4.8

So Jordan averaged 5 more ppg in the playoffs with better efficiency per possession and therefore is better than Lebron at basketball.

Jordan also had superior shooting efficiency on jumpshots, which allowed more jumpshooting and therefore ball movement (the best strategy).. Otoh, Lebron's drives are ball-dominant and reduce teammates to spot-up shooter, while forcing the team to use inferior strategy.

[AirBonner]

MJ never had a season 19 so there is nothing to compare

[3ba11]

MJ never had a season 19 so there is nothing to compare


And Lebron won't be dropping 51 and 45 with many other 40 point games and 3 game winners at 38 years old like Jordan.. Lebron isn't even doing any of that THIS year (or last), despite an easier offensive format (league ortg is 5 points higher than 02').

[AirBonner]

And Lebron won't be dropping 51 and 45 with many other 40 point games and 3 game winners at 38 years old like Jordan.. Lebron isn't even doing any of that THIS year (or last), despite an easier offensive format (league ortg is 5 points higher than 02').

LeBron never rested multiple years in his prime. He never rested by going 1-9. 10 finals trips in a row will do that

[3ba11]

LeBron never rested multiple years in his prime. He never rested by going 1-9. 10 finals trips in a row will do that


Lebron rested by missing the playoffs and having 3 years to develop into a favored, high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs.

He also rested by entering the league with the East all-star center on his team and then adding a player that was achieving peak Pippen stats before entering the 06' Playoffs (22/6/5 with 1st team defense).

Despite all this help, Lebron was still bumming around with a 45-win team in 2008 before Mo Williams made them a 66-win league favorite in 2009.. Yet they still lost to a 1-star underdog in the 09' Playoffs, and then lost to a Rondo-led underdog in 2010 after adding Jamison/Shaq to their 66-win league favorite.

So the historical record shows that Lebron was on his way to being another career-losing ball-dominator just like every other ball-dominator until he formed super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight).

[AirBonner]

You also think boobie gibson is better than Pippen

[3ba11]

You also think boobie gibson is better than Pippen


No, but his peak performance was superior by leading the Cavs to the 07' Finals with his closeout performance in game 6 (31 points), while Lebron wet the bed (20 points on 3-11)

Pippen never did that and was always carried.

Additionally, the 89' Cavs (#1 SRS) are better than any team that Lebron ever beat in the East, including the 07' Pistons or 18' Celtics (bum teams that Lebron got a lot of credit for beating), and Jordan beat those Cavs with nothing (a rookie low seed lottery cast)

[Johnny32]

33.45 - 28.7 = 4.8

So Jordan averaged 5 more ppg in the playoffs

jordan avg 4.4 more shots per gm and 1.0 more fta to score 4.7 more points, durrr.

[Axe]

You also think boobie gibson is better than Pippen
And shannon brown too