Lebron's recent scoring binge + 2008 scoring title = Lebron can't win w/ high scoring

[3ba11]

Lebron led the league in scoring for the last 7 games (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JIE3mCdICiE&t=07m04s), yet the Lakers are 3-4.. Lebron also had a bummy, 45-win team as scoring champ in 2008 before Mo's jumpshooting and spacing effect transformed the team.

So Lebron can't win with high scoring because it's too ball-dominant to beat the top teams (teammates reduced to spot-up shooter), whereas Jordan's high scoring won all his titles because it's partially-assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role and allows the best strategy (ball movement).

[RRR3]

LeBron has been a high scorer every year of his career…

[3ba11]

LeBron has been a high scorer every year of his career…


But he needs more help because his high scoring is too ball-dominant to beat the best teams, while also reducing everyone to spot up roles... Otoh, Jordan's high scoring won all his titles because it's partially-assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role.

And Lebron needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for every Finals win (or close to it), so he never defeated maximum defensive attention/burden like MJ did 6 times

[RRR3]

duh-uhhhh-uhhh
:lol

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron led the playoffs in scoring in 2012.

[RRR3]

LeBron led the playoffs in scoring in 2012.
“Durrrrrrrrrr hurrrrr duhhhh”-3ball

[000]

Lebron led the league in scoring for the last 7 games (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JIE3mCdICiE&t=07m04s), yet the Lakers are 3-4.. Lebron also had a bummy, 45-win team as scoring champ in 2008 before Mo's jumpshooting and spacing effect transformed the team.

So Lebron can't win with high scoring because it's too ball-dominant to beat the top teams (teammates reduced to spot-up shooter), whereas Jordan's high scoring won all his titles because it's partially-assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role and allows the best strategy (ball movement).

Time of possession (last 7 games)

Lebron - 6 mins

Durant - 5.7 mins

Edit: Lebron also averaged 37 min/game vs Durant's 41.5

[StrongLurk]

OP is in a constant state of triggerdom, I almost feel bad for the guy cause you can just tell he is absolutely miserable with life. Dude is melting down on Christmas eve over Lebron still being an elite basketball player.

[SouBeachTalents]

OP is in a constant state of triggerdom, I almost feel bad for the guy cause you can just tell he is absolutely miserable with life. Dude is melting down on Christmas eve over Lebron still being an elite basketball player.
The funniest part is I bet when he registered in 2014 he thought LeBron would start to decline after 30 and be irrelevant by the end of the decade. Little did he know he'd still be stuck here trying to argue that LeBron sucks as he continues to play at an elite level at 37 :lol

[ELITEpower23]

Players to average 30/10/5 on 50% en route to a FMVP:

LeBron James
Hakeem Olajuwon

That's the list.

[3ba11]

Time of possession (last 7 games)

Lebron - 6 mins

Durant - 5.7 mins

Edit: Lebron also averaged 37 min/game vs Durant's 41.5


Durant is carrying a westbrook-style player to the best record in the East because of his higher jumpshooting volume, which allows the capacity for the best strategy (ball movement) and better teammate fits.. That's why Durant has always been better than Lebron, including higher team ceilings with similar help.

Specifically, Lebron uses one ball-dominant drive after another (predictable and plodding - gets outgunned), whereas hot jumpshooting requires a double team/defensive adjustment and can close critical possessions better

[beasted]

Time of possession (last 7 games)

Lebron - 6 mins

Durant - 5.7 mins

Edit: Lebron also averaged 37 min/game vs Durant's 41.5
1st problem is you got the stat wrong. Durant's time of possession over the last 7 games was 5.1 mins vs 6.0

Beyond that, why did you stop there?

What's the team records in the last 7? (6-1 vs 3-4)
How many touches per game over the last 7? (82.4 vs 87.9)
How many points per touch? (.402 vs .335)
Average seconds per touch? (3.7 vs 4.1)
Average dribbles per touch? (2.6 vs 2.8)

When you add these together and see that every single one of these stats show Durant dominates the ball less while scoring more and winning over the last 7 games it will make everybody question whatever stupid agenda you were trying to paint and why it failed so miserably.

[000]

1st problem is you got the stat wrong. Durant's time of possession over the last 7 games was 5.1 mins vs 6.0

Beyond that, why did you stop there?

What's the team records in the last 7? (6-1 vs 3-4)
How many touches per game over the last 7? (82.4 vs 87.9)
How many points per touch? (.402 vs .335)
Average seconds per touch? (3.7 vs 4.1)
Average dribbles per touch? (2.6 vs 2.8)

When you add these together and see that every single one of these stats show Durant dominates the ball less while scoring more and winning over the last 7 games it will make everybody question whatever stupid agenda you were trying to paint and why it failed so miserably.

Over the last 7 games, Durant had 5.7 minutes of TOP (he simply missed 2 of those games). Despite that, he had a 5-0 record.


If Durant comparisons trigger you, how about Lebron vs Derozan:

Lebron - 6 minutes with 4.1 sec/touch in his last 7 gms

Derozan - 5.6 minutes with a staggering 5.3 sec/touch in his last 7 gms

3-4 record vs 6-1 record

[3ba11]

Over the last 7 games, Durant had 5.7 minutes of TOP (he simply missed 2 of those games). Despite that, he had a 5-0 record.


If Durant comparisons trigger you, how about Lebron vs Derozan:

Lebron - 6 minutes with 4.1 sec/touch in his last 7 gms

Derozan - 5.6 minutes with a staggering 5.3 sec/touch in his last 7 gms

3-4 record vs 6-1 record


Looks like a case of elite-jumpshooting skill (Durant, DeRozan) allowing the best brand of ball (ball movement), so their 30 ppg WINS and isn't empty like Lebron's 30 with weaker brand

[beasted]

Over the last 7 games, Durant had 5.7 minutes of TOP (he simply missed 2 of those games). Despite that, he had a 5-0 record.


If Durant comparisons trigger you, how about Lebron vs Derozan:

Lebron - 6 minutes with 4.1 sec/touch in his last 7 gms

Derozan - 5.6 minutes with a staggering 5.3 sec/touch in his last 7 gms

3-4 record vs 6-1 record

Dude you're reaching with the last 7 games but he didn't play 2. That's the most absurd reach I've heard this month on here.

Next, since when has DeRozan been a winner? I'll wait.

I honestly can care less about LeBron vs Durant vs anyone. Just make sense with what you're saying.

[000]

Dude you're reaching with the last 7 games but he didn't play 2. That's the most absurd reach I've heard this month on here.

Next, since when has DeRozan been a winner? I'll wait.

I honestly can care less about LeBron vs Durant vs anyone. Just make sense with what you're saying.
Yes, exactly. DeRozan "isn't a winner" and he also holds the ball when he gets it, yet he wins games regardless. That's my point.

[3ba11]

Yes, exactly. DeRozan "isn't a winner" and he also holds the ball when he gets it, yet he wins games regardless. That's my point.


Only Lebron has a pass-to-lesser-player mentality and relies on live/existing dribbles, while DeRozan, KD and Kawhi can rely on catch-and-shoot or triple-threat... And they have more assassin mindset

[000]

Only Lebron has a pass-to-lesser-player mentality and relies on live/existing dribbles, while DeRozan, KD and Kawhi can rely on catch-and-shoot or triple-threat... And they have more assassin mindset
How much "catch-and-shooting" are those guys doing when they have comparable or superior seconds/touch?

DeRozan has vastly superior seconds/touch and dribbles/touch

[3ba11]

Yes, exactly. DeRozan "isn't a winner" and he also holds the ball when he gets it, yet he wins games regardless. That's my point.


Lebron's hold-time is 6.4 minutes this year, which is 50% higher than Durant's 4.3 minutes

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

[000]

Lebron's hold-time is 6.4 minutes this year, which is 50% higher than Durant's 4.3 minutes

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1
"this year" yet your thread is about this latest stretch, and the post concerned lebron and derozan

[3ba11]

"this year" yet your thread is about this latest stretch, and the post concerned lebron and derozan


Anything materially-above 5 minutes is a point guard hold-time, so he's employing a 2 point guard lineup (2 players with a point guard hold-time).

These 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

[000]

Lebron led the league in scoring for the last 7 games (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JIE3mCdICiE&t=07m04s)
Skip talked about Lebron's total points in that video, but a lot of high-scorers like Durant, DeRozan, Trae missed games over that 7-game stretch, so this is just misleading

[3ba11]

Skip talked about Lebron's total points in that video, but a lot of high-scorers like Durant, DeRozan, Trae missed games over that 7-game stretch, so this is just misleading


Regardless, Lebron doesn't win with high scoring because he's too ball-dominant, while their high scoring wins because it includes more jumpshooting and therefore better strategy (ball movement) and teammate fits

[beasted]

Yes, exactly. DeRozan "isn't a winner" and he also holds the ball when he gets it, yet he wins games regardless. That's my point.

Wins what games? His teams humorously fail in the playoffs if he gets there. Traded for Kawhi and same core immediately won a title. Also plays average at best defense on the other end.

I really have no clue why I'm talking about DeRozan. Let's get back to that time of possession empty comparison.

Although 3ball is known for his agenda driven drivel, we aren't supposed to mirror it. He makes somewhat of a point at the end of the day. LeBron dominating the ball is not what they need. They need him putting pressure on the defense with hard cuts, good picks and strong rolls, and swinging the ball side to side to get the defense off balance and other teammates involved. If he catches the ball within 12 feet of the basket one on one, his defender is toast. The premise of this thread although built on an agenda is that all points aren't equal in the team dynamic. In that regard, he's right.

[SATAN]

So basically 1-9?

[HoopsNY]

LeBron led the playoffs in scoring in 2012.

Ether

[expansionera]

Lebron won with higher more efficient scoring than Kobe ever achieved

[Phoenix]

MJ at his highest scoring most ball-dominant wasn't winning titles either, so not sure what the point of the thread is( like 99% of the bullshit the OP conjures up). He won titles averaging 29ppg( like in 98), and lost in the first round averaging 37( like in 87). Maybe, just maybe, quality of teammates and overall quality of the league plays somewhere instead of boiling it down to PPG in a vacuum. None of the highest PPG averages have ever resulted in a championship.

[warriorfan]

MJ at his highest scoring most ball-dominant wasn't winning titles either, so not sure what the point of the thread is( like 99% of the bullshit the OP conjures up). He won titles averaging 29ppg( like in 98), and lost in the first round averaging 37( like in 87). Maybe, just maybe, quality of teammates and overall quality of the league plays somewhere instead of boiling it down to PPG in a vacuum. None of the highest PPG averages have ever resulted in a championship.

I agree about not boiling it down to ppg and relying more on eye test. You can see Lebron is just not a great “go to” scorer. Especially in tight situations against legitimate rim protection. He has no mid range game. He will either chuck a 3 and pray or do a sloppy crash and pass out to the corner. He’s not a true scorer.

[beasted]

MJ at his highest scoring most ball-dominant wasn't winning titles either, so not sure what the point of the thread is( like 99% of the bullshit the OP conjures up). He won titles averaging 29ppg( like in 98), and lost in the first round averaging 37( like in 87). Maybe, just maybe, quality of teammates and overall quality of the league plays somewhere instead of boiling it down to PPG in a vacuum. None of the highest PPG averages have ever resulted in a championship.

I don't know if you realize it but you're helping 3ball make his point. Yes Jordan won the scoring title (regular season and playoffs) all 6 years he won the championship, and he also won the scoring title in 87. The point is that the quality of the points aren't always equal, and less ball dominance is likely to lead to better team success.

[TheGoatest]

37.1 point per game average, highest since Wilt in 1962-63 = not good enough to be a higher seed than team led by rookie Chuck Person
43.7 point per game average in the playoffs = not good enough to win a single game in the series

:oldlol:

Then this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

[Phoenix]

I don't know if you realize it but you're helping 3ball make his point. Yes Jordan won the scoring title (regular season and playoffs) all 6 years he won the championship, and he also won the scoring title in 87. The point is that the quality of the points aren't always equal, and less ball dominance is likely to lead to better team success.

I don't know if you realize it but that was the point I was making. I mean, I literally said from the get-go 'MJ at his highest scoring most ball-dominant wasn't winning titles either'. Ergo, when he was able to get his points within the flow of an offense that involved other players, rather than being a solo act, he had better team success. He didn't win shit scoring 37 or 35. Neither did Kobe scoring 35 in 06. Neither did Harden dropping 36 a couple years ago.

[SATAN]

37.1 point per game average, highest since Wilt in 1962-63 = not good enough to be a higher seed than team led by rookie Chuck Person
43.7 point per game average in the playoffs = not good enough to win a single game in the series

:oldlol:

Then this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

:roll:

[3ba11]

.

Jordan didn't win shit scoring 37 or 35.





Jordan averaged 41 in the 93' Finals and 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, including 35 and 36 ppg in the 92' & 93' Playoffs... or 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs and 34 ppg for his Finals career..

So looks like you're wrong... And no one is anywhere NEAR those numbers.. only MJ is above 30 for his playoff career and he's at nearly 34 - that's 4-5 ppg above all the greatest scorers ever like KD or Kobe - 4-5 ppg above THOSE guys.

Aside from Kareem or Shaq's peak seasons of 71' and 00', only MJ won as scoring champ (6 times) - so MJ is the only guy that didn't have to tone it down because he's the only guy that didn't have to abandon his "hot-doggin scoring champ mode", while everyone else did like Kobe, Iverson, Lebron, and other scoring champs.. MJ was so good and fundamentally-sound that even his hot doggin' scoring champ mode was optimal enough to win.

[SATAN]

Mikan>>>MJ

[Phoenix]

Jordan averaged 41 in the 93' Finals and 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, including 35 and 36 ppg in the 92' & 93' Playoffs... or 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs and 34 ppg for his Finals career..

So looks like you're wrong... And no one is anywhere NEAR those numbers.. only MJ is above 30 for his playoff career and he's at nearly 34 - that's 4-5 ppg above all the greatest scorers ever like KD or Kobe - 4-5 ppg above THOSE guys.

Aside from Kareem or Shaq's peak seasons of 71' and 00', only MJ won as scoring champ (6 times) - so MJ is the only guy that didn't have to tone it down because he's the only guy that didn't have to abandon his "hot-doggin scoring champ mode", while everyone else did like Kobe, Iverson, Lebron, and other scoring champs.. MJ was so good and fundamentally-sound that even his hot doggin' scoring champ mode was optimal enough to win.

Season averages, not playoff series. You really think I don't know these numbers as someone who came along in the era, and if I didn't you've reminded us about 30,000 times on this account alone. Case in point this post:


MJ at his highest scoring most ball-dominant wasn't winning titles either, so not sure what the point of the thread is( like 99% of the bullshit the OP conjures up). He won titles averaging 29ppg( like in 98), and lost in the first round averaging 37( like in 87). Maybe, just maybe, quality of teammates and overall quality of the league plays somewhere instead of boiling it down to PPG in a vacuum. None of the highest PPG averages have ever resulted in a championship.

Clearly I'm talking about season stats, so looks like you're a dumbass. Furthermore as someone who obsesses over MJ, his 'hotdogging scoring champ' mode was really in the 80s, that was the solo act routine( or did you forget your own often repeated point that he had a crap team in the 80s?). In the 90s the 'hot dogging scoring champ' mode had been incorporated within the confines of the triangle, which wouldn't have functioned at the championship level if MJ was still playing like he did in 87.

[Spurs m8]

Another day of team killing stats

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron's scoring title race this season and his 2008 scoring title prove that he can't win with high scoring because it's too ball-dominant, whereas Durant and other guys with elite jumpshooting skill routinely win with high scoring.

Facts gonna facts - Lebron lost as a massive favorite in 2009 with high scoring (too ball-dominant, so the Magic got better looks with their ball movement).. He also lost the 15' Finals because he was too inefficient at the extra jumpshooting volume required of high-scoring carry-jobs... And the Warriors caught up to his predictable ball-dominance of course

So Lebron can't beat good teams in the playoffs with high scoring, and can't win much in regular season as a top scorer (scoring champ caliber).. even though he's taller and smarter than Westbrook, Lebron is still a westbrookER, aka spotty-shooting ball-dominator

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron the last 6 games: 34ppg on 53%.

Lakers 5-1

[ELITEpower23]

37.1 point per game average, highest since Wilt in 1962-63 = not good enough to be a higher seed than team led by rookie Chuck Person
43.7 point per game average in the playoffs = not good enough to win a single game in the series

:oldlol:

Then this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

Shit :roll:

[3ba11]

Lebron the last 6 games: 34ppg on 53%.

Lakers 5-1


Lebron's high scoring reduces teammates to spot-up shooter, whereas Jordan's high scoring is partially-assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role to playmaker.

That's why spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Hughes, Pippen and Ingram cratered alongside Lebron, while Pippen became a household name alongside Jordan despite his no-name stats and performance

Jordan simply won with high scoring all the time, while Lebron's high scoring is inherently suboptimal due to excessive ball-dominance (09') or poor jumpshooting efficiency at higher volumes (15')

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron's high scoring reduces teammates to spot-up shooter, whereas Jordan's high scoring is partially-assisted (off-ball), which elevates teammate role to playmaker.

That's why spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Hughes, Pippen and Ingram cratered alongside Lebron, while Pippen became a household name alongside Jordan despite his no-name stats and performance

Jordan simply won with high scoring all the time, while Lebron's high scoring is inherently suboptimal due to excessive ball-dominance (09') or poor jumpshooting efficiency at higher volumes (15')

Oh ok you better cool on Monk then.

[3ba11]

Oh ok you better cool on Monk then.


elite shooters are the only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron.

The wide swathe of players that DO crater is a testament to Lebron's skill deficit .. bad fit = skill deficit...

Lebron don't fit with scoring forwards (Jamison, Kuzma, Love, Bosh) or spotty-shooting ball-handlers (Hughes, Pippen, Wade, Ingram)

[ShawkFactory]

OP is mentally ill. He is also a compulsive liar.

It’s truly amusing watching someone try to confidently explain what’s happening without watching what’s happening :lol

[3ba11]

It’s truly amusing watching someone try to confidently explain what’s happening without watching what’s happening :lol


Lebron lowers his teammates assists and increases their assisted rate.

That proves he turns teammates into play-finishers and spot-up roles

So he reduces teammates and employs inferior strategy - and I didn't even need to watch

So that's why Lebron mostly loses with super-team and hand-picked preseason favorite (10-16')...but I'm open to other opinions.. what's your explanation for the losing with super-teams and his super-teams always needing more help?

[ShawkFactory]

It’s truly amusing watching someone trying to confidently explain what’s happening without watching what’s happening :lol

[3ba11]

It’s truly amusing watching someone trying to confidently explain what’s happening without watching what’s happening :lol


Still waiting on your explanation for why Lebron mostly lost with super-teams and why his super-teams always needing more help

And why he's lottery/1st Round out west without AD leading the team statistically and the entire league in playoff scoring

[ShawkFactory]

Still waiting on your explanation for why Lebron mostly lost with super-teams and why his super-teams always needing more help

And why he's lottery/1st Round out west without AD leading the team statistically and the entire league in playoff scoring

Still waiting for your explanation as to why a 40 year old argues on a message board likes he’s 16

[3ba11]

Still waiting for your explanation as to why a 40 year old argues on a message board likes he’s 16


Oh yes, you're the example of mature posting

[ShawkFactory]

Oh yes, you're the example of mature posting

That's correct.

[AussieSteve]

Still waiting on your explanation for why Lebron mostly lost with super-teams and why his super-teams always needing more help

And why he's lottery/1st Round out west without AD leading the team statistically and the entire league in playoff scoring

Is it really surprising that lebron needs more help than MJ when the teams he has to beat are better than the teams MJ had to beat?

No team in the league had a better #2 than Pippen. So by the standards of the day, MJ had a superteam. The best #2 in the league and fringe all stars as the 3rd and 4th options.

The teams vying for the title over the last decade have invariably had multiple HoFers in their primes.

But you know all this.

[tpols]

Beyond that, why did you stop there?

What's the team records in the last 7? (6-1 vs 3-4)
How many touches per game over the last 7? (82.4 vs 87.9)
How many points per touch? (.402 vs .335)
Average seconds per touch? (3.7 vs 4.1)
Average dribbles per touch? (2.6 vs 2.8)

When you add these together and see that every single one of these stats show Durant dominates the ball less while scoring more and winning over the last 7 games it will make everybody question whatever stupid agenda you were trying to paint and why it failed so miserably.

Bingo.

[TheGoatest]

Jordan's highest scoring game of the 1991 Finals was the one that the Bulls lost.

In the 1995 playoffs he lost while averaging 31 points in the second round (no Rodman/Grant).
In the 1996 finals he won while averaging 27 (with Rodman).

Jordan is the definition of empty scoring stats, and the definition of a player who needs to be on a stacked team to win.

[Axe]

Jordan's highest scoring game of the 1991 Finals was the one that the Bulls lost.

In the 1995 playoffs he lost while averaging 31 points in the second round (no Rodman/Grant).
In the 1996 finals he won while averaging 27 (with Rodman).

Jordan is the definition of empty scoring stats, and the definition of a player who needs to be on a stacked team to win.
You do realize that you do need a team in order to play a team sport like basketball, right?

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

It's harder to get off 30 shots if a player needs to dribble for half the shot clock for each shot, so it's only practical for pure scorers with elite jumpshooting skill to be high volume players.. For high scoring performances, it helps ball movement and winning if teammates find the hot hand/quick score rather than wait for a ball-dominator to score over and over.

The stats confirm the impracticality of having a ball-dominator with high volume because Lebron's ball-dominance wins less at higher volumes than Jordan's mix of on-ball and off-ball.. Specifically, when Lebron scores 33 or more (so for all scoring amounts 33 and above, aka 34, 35, 36, etc.), his regular season record or win percentage is worse (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=lebron%27s+record+when+scoring+33+points+or+ more+career) than Jordan's (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=jordan%27s+record+when+scoring+33+points+or+ more+career) - so that shows how Jordan's scoring style was more optimal for winning (since it won more at higher scoring amounts, aka 33+).

[AirBonner]

LeBron still on a scoring binge year 19

[3ba11]

LeBron still on a scoring binge year 19


His high scoring is too ball-dominant to win, so he's exposed as a ball-dominator that couldn't beat Dwight Howard or make the Finals (can't win with high scoring, aka carry teams), so he formed super-teams - his high scoring can't win, so he sought the equal-scoring partners and closers that he needs..

[AirBonner]

LeGoat!

[3ba11]

LeGoat!


Formed super-teams because he couldn't make the Finals with home court advantage in 09' and 10'..

then his super-teams yielded perennial Finals underdogs that barely met the underdog expectation (4/10)

da goat doh

[AirBonner]

Formed super-teams because he couldn't make the Finals with home court advantage in 09' and 10'..

then his super-teams yielded perennial Finals underdogs that barely met the underdog expectation (4/10)

da goat doh
LeBeast!

[SouBeachTalents]

I honestly feel bad for OP, bumping old threads on the topic he's made literally thousands of threads on while the Chiefs/Bills were involved in literally one of the greatest sporting events you'll ever see.

[3ba11]

I honestly feel bad for OP, bumping old threads on the topic he's made literally thousands of threads on while the Chiefs/Bills were involved in literally one of the greatest sporting events you'll ever see.


American football?

C'mon

[AirBonner]

American football?

C'mon

Atleast everyone cheats in football. Even playing field

[3ba11]

Atleast everyone cheats in football. Even playing field


Hoops is a sissy sport compared to football for sure but I just never got into it.. I learned the rules of playing from Madden, which was a pretty good educator