why is Bill Russell top 5 all time and George Mikan isn't even top 30

[HunterSThompson]

what is it that makes one guy so much more respected

and why are BAA titles counted or original 8 team NBA titles and not NBL titles. theyre either all equal or all equally worthless.

is it the league mvps??. they didn't even have league mvps when mikan played. and people automatically grant Russell finals mvps with his titles. why not the same for mikan. if there had been the same awards as today then this would be his resume

1947 NBL Champion/MVP/Finals MVP
1948 NBL Champion/MVP/Finals MVP
1949 BAA Champion/MVP/Finals MVP
1950 NBA Champion/MVP/Finals MVP
1952 NBA Champion/MVP/Finals MVP
1953 NBA Champion/MVP/Finals MVP
1954 NBA Champion/Finals MVP
4 time scoring Champion

why is it someone from 60 years ago can be treated with full prestige and respect for their accomplishments and be gifted ones they likely would have gotten. but not someone from 70 years ago


seems odd. it's almost as if there's some major factor at play here. something that separates them into 2 different categories. I wonder what it is

:rolleyes:

[John8204]

I got both in my top ten, a lot of it is we don't count 30% of pre-NBA career even though the man established the league. We've only had a handfull dynasties in NBA history and Mikan did the most (7) with the least. I believe Vern Mikkelsen was inducted by the veterans committee

[SouBeachTalents]

If you actually believe the reason George Mikan doesn’t get more respect is because he’s white you’re out of your fcking mind :oldlol:

[HunterSThompson]

If you actually believe the reason George Mikan doesn’t get more respect is because he’s white you’re out of your fcking mind :oldlol:

yeah it's obviously because he played in a weaker era. nobody from the old days is respected. which is why Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, wilt Chamberlain, elgin Baylor and other guys are completely forgotten today.

its also why nobodies petitioned to have the nba logo changed to a black man

:rolleyes:

[ShawkFactory]

yeah it's obviously because he played in a weaker era. nobody from the old days is respected. which is why Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, wilt Chamberlain, elgin Baylor and other guys are completely forgotten today.

its also why nobodies petitioned to have the nba logo changed to a black man

:rolleyes:

Not the same era. There's no historically great player from his era at all other than him. Even Bob Petit only overlapped for one season.

And he only played 7 years. But it's cuz white doe :facepalm

EDIT: forgot Cousy

[HunterSThompson]

personally I think the reason Bill Russell is in the goat conversation and mikan is in the garbage can conversation is because Russell has so many more highlights. there's hours of youtube videos showcasing bills amazing jump shots and poster dunks. he broke so many ankles too. I heard his nickname was iso russ and Bill Bussin.. he always bussin moves on nyugas


its not just about the resume and a certain color attached to it at all

[HunterSThompson]

Not the same era. There's no historically great player from his era at all other than him. Even Bob Petit only overlapped for one season.

And he only played 7 years. But it's cuz white doe :facepalm

EDIT: forgot Cousy

its almost as if the dude won the title every single year to keep others from making a name for themselves.


shocker

[SouBeachTalents]

Not the same era. There's no historically great player from his era at all other than him. Even Bob Petit only overlapped for one season.

And he only played 7 years. But it's cuz white doe :facepalm

EDIT: forgot Cousy
Or how about the fact he played his entire prime without a motha fcking shot clock :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Bill Russell doesn’t need to be gifted with anything. Be it high school, college, Olympics, or pros he lost only 1 elimination game he was healthy to compete for from 16 to 35. And Mikan winning titles in a league that folded isn’t exactly the same as counting nba titles as nba titles. You’re taking about a league that had the Packers, Jets, Jeeps and Oshkosh All stars. Russell gets talked about for having won 11 nba titles because it was….11 nba titles. All those teams still exist. Two changed names(Royals to Kings and Nationals to 76ers) but it’s one league. Generally I’d say the nba is what happened after the nbl and BAA merged.

The early history of both leagues are a little hard to mix with the real nba even the late 50s one. Russell was winning rings vs guys who played in the 80s. I’m not sure we need to bring up the 37 Akron Wingfoots dynasty beginnings just because the Pistons were in the same league and made the cut years later.

Russell, Oscar, Wilt, West, and so on are nba players who played long glorious nba careers. Mikan is a large part of the reason the nba even survived but he just didn’t have a long nba career. He was past his prime at like 25 and played maybe 4 years as his prime version in the nba.

Why would he be ranked with the most accomplished nba player ever? He’s not exactly Bart Starr who won all those nfl championships before they decided to call them super bowls.

Hes more like Jim Thorpe before even Starr. Someone who’s fame and talent captured attention before the league even had a firm business model and had him playing random “teams” thrown together to sell tickets to see Jim Thorpe. Thorpe technically played for the NY Giants….but the nfl was thrown together like…that morning to showcase famous college athletes who had no eligibility left for school.

Lacked a bit of the legitimacy that came along shortly after when they started getting serious about it.

[ShawkFactory]

its almost as if the dude won the title every single year to keep others from making a name for themselves.


shocker

That's not how that works. Russell won 11 of 13 and plenty of people are recognized from that era.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

His advanced stats in the playoffs were insane, he's right in the middle of jordan LeBron kawhi.

I'm not a fan of the pre 3 pointer era so I'm not that big on him or Russell. I do agree if you give 1 guy credit, it should be the other as well.

He looks like the guy who does everybody's homework in computer class hahahahhaha

[HunterSThompson]

https://i.ibb.co/r4XmsF2/aIMfMN.gif

https://i.ibb.co/CKqwqyb/mhQVVD.gif



that's just evolution boyz. 2 completely different eras. no way mikan would have survived in the 60s

[HunterSThompson]

That's not how that works. Russell won 11 of 13 and plenty of people are recognized from that era.

damn Brosky. if only mikan had 7 or 8 hall of fame teammates carrying him instead. then his era would have been boombastic like Mr russells

[TheCorporation]

Um, who said Mikan isnt top 30?

RealGM top 100 ranked him 19th in 2020.

[ShawkFactory]

damn Brosky. if only mikan had 7 or 8 hall of fame teammates carrying him instead. then his era would have been boombastic

What’s the relevance of his teammates? If anything you’re proving my point that his era had more legitimate nba basketball players

[John8204]

Bill Russell doesn’t need to be gifted with anything. Be it high school, college, Olympics, or pros he lost only 1 elimination game he was healthy to compete for from 16 to 35. And Mikan winning titles in a league that folded isn’t exactly the same as counting nba titles as nba titles. You’re taking about a league that had the Packers, Jets, Jeeps and Oshkosh All stars. Russell gets talked about for having won 11 nba titles because it was….11 nba titles. All those teams still exist. Two changed names(Royals to Kings and Nationals to 76ers) but it’s one league. Generally I’d say the nba is what happened after the nbl and BAA merged.

The early history of both leagues are a little hard to mix with the real nba even the late 50s one. Russell was winning rings vs guys who played in the 80s. I’m not sure we need to bring up the 37 Akron Wingfoots dynasty beginnings just because the Pistons were in the same league and made the cut years later.

Russell, Oscar, Wilt, West, and so on are nba players who played long glorious nba careers. Mikan is a large part of the reason the nba even survived but he just didn’t have a long nba career. He was past his prime at like 25 and played maybe 4 years as his prime version in the nba.

Why would he be ranked with the most accomplished nba player ever? He’s not exactly Bart Starr who won all those nfl championships before they decided to call them super bowls.

Hes more like Jim Thorpe before even Starr. Someone who’s fame and talent captured attention before the league even had a firm business model and had him playing random “teams” thrown together to sell tickets to see Jim Thorpe. Thorpe technically played for the NY Giants….but the nfl was thrown together like…that morning to showcase famous college athletes who had no eligibility left for school.

Lacked a bit of the legitimacy that came along shortly after when they started getting serious about it.

I think of him as more of Jim Brown than Jim Thorpe...the titles are one thing.

He had 10 fractures during his career, that he was winning all those titles.
Kareem was the Kobe to Mikan's MJ where the skyhook basically came Mikan's shooting style
24 second clock we got that from Mikan
goal tending rules we got that from Mikan
three second lane moved from 6 to 12 feet

The guy retired because he had to get a real job and become a lawyer

[HunterSThompson]

Um, who said Mikan isnt top 30?

RealGM top 100 ranked him 19th in 2020.

now wait just a darn minute. Steve wheels praises espn lists since 2016 then totally disregards this one


https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105681/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-40-11

https://i.ibb.co/Xp8cQP4/Screenshot-20211228-181057-Gallery.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

https://i.ibb.co/r4XmsF2/aIMfMN.gif

https://i.ibb.co/CKqwqyb/mhQVVD.gif



that's just evolution boyz. 2 completely different eras. no way mikan would have survived in the 60s


He wouldn’t have. He did try a comeback after the shot clock you know? He didn’t have the stamina to run like that and he was like 29 or 30. They didn’t add the shot clock while he played. He was the reason for it but they added it and he retired. He wasn’t able to play at that pace or deal with the physical changes in the game. He wasn’t built for it.




You couldn’t expect him to play real athletes nightly. Even after he ****ed up his knee Wilt was faster than Lebron is now. This is wilt at 35 going on 36 and 300 pounds:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConstantHeavenlyAfricanbushviper-size_restricted.gif





Mikan wasn’t moving like that at 17. He was a pioneer but not built for what the game quickly became.

[HunterSThompson]

I think of him as more of Jim Brown than Jim Thorpe...the titles are one thing.

He had 10 fractures during his career, that he was winning all those titles.
Kareem was the Kobe to Mikan's MJ where the skyhook basically came Mikan's shooting style
24 second clock we got that from Mikan
goal tending rules we got that from Mikan
three second lane moved from 6 to 12 feet

The guy retired because he had to get a real job and become a lawyer

mikan means more to the game of basketball than anyone as far as I'm concerned

the first legend of the game. the pioneer of the nba. the man who helped shape it into the league we see today for the most part. he was doing the Rick Barry underhand wrist flick free throw long before him as well. he belongs in the top 5 all time with Russell or both belong in the dumpster where everyone left mikan long ago

[HunterSThompson]

He wouldn’t have. He did try a comeback after the shot clock you know? He didn’t have the stamina to run like that and he was like 29 or 30. They didn’t add the shot clock while he played. He was the reason for it but they added it and he retired. He wasn’t able to play at that pace or deal with the physical changes in the game. He wasn’t built for it.

You couldn’t expect him to play real athletes nightly. Even after he ****ed up his knee Wilt was faster than Lebron is now. This is wilt at 35 going on 36:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConstantHeavenlyAfricanbushviper-size_restricted.gif





Mikan wasn’t moving like that at 17. He was a pioneer but not built for what the game quickly became.

mikans a big man you racist clown

[RRR3]

mikans a big man you racist clown
The irony of you calling anyone racist lmfao

[expansionera]

If him being white is why he is considered irrelevant why is Bird unanimous top ten for most pundits/fans? Mikan never played a game of NBA basketball, the shot clock wasn’t even introduced to basketball until after his retirement.

Comparatively to a guy that played (and won 11 titles) amongst contemporaries such as West, Petit, Wilt, Thurmond, and a litany of other top 75 all time it is easy to see why one is universally held in higher regard.

[HunterSThompson]

mikan had more talent in his pinky than Russell ever had offensively. he was the original Kareem.. Russell was the original draymond green.

mikan belongs above that defensive role player all time. period

[ShawkFactory]

mikan had more talent in his pinky than Russell ever had offensively. he was the original Kareem.. Russell was the original draymond green.

mikan belongs above that defensive role player all time. period

You showed your hand too early.

[HunterSThompson]

If him being white is why he is considered irrelevant why is Bird unanimous top ten for most pundits/fans? Mikan never played a game of NBA basketball, the shot clock wasn’t even introduced to basketball until after his retirement.

Comparatively to a guy that played (and won 11 titles) amongst contemporaries such as West, Petit, Wilt, Thurmond, and a litany of other top 75 all time it is easy to see why one is universally held in higher regard.

the fact that bird is placed on magics level and not a level above is the proof of racial bias because all magic could do was pass and rebound and bird did both of them just as good as magic while also scoring like prime dirk

[John8204]

He wouldn’t have. He did try a comeback after the shot clock you know? He didn’t have the stamina to run like that and he was like 29 or 30. They didn’t add the shot clock while he played. He was the reason for it but they added it and he retired. He wasn’t able to play at that pace or deal with the physical changes in the game. He wasn’t built for it.

Mikan wasn’t moving like that at 17. He was a pioneer but not built for what the game quickly became.

He came back because he had to go to school and he was running for Congress...

Different athletes played the game in different ways. MJ doesn't win a ring until they change the rules and make the game softer.

[HunterSThompson]

You showed your hand too early.

the truth hurts I guess.. could Russell carry a team on his back offensively even in mikans era. hell f*cking no

[Kblaze8855]

mikans a big man you racist clown


Not nearly as big as the person shown running. A person who was 10 years past his prime, had a repaired knee, and was 50 pounds heavier, older than Mikan in any footage you’ve seen, and had played way way way way more basketball. Just very different kinds of athletic. Much like Russell.

[HunterSThompson]

Not nearly as big as the person shown running. A person who was 10 years past his prime, had a repaired knee, and was 50 pounds heavier, older than Mikan in any footage you’ve seen, and had played way way way way more basketball. Just very different kinds of athletic. Much like Russell.

his job wasn't to lead a fast break. the guy had a job on the block. something Russell could only dream of doing.. he had to beg Tom heinsohn to carry his ass

[ShawkFactory]

the truth hurts I guess.. could Russell carry a team on his back offensively even in mikans era. hell f*cking no

I bet you can’t you can’t name one player that Mikan played against in any of his finals series.

[000]

Great thread OP. Neither Russell nor Mikan is top 100.

[Kblaze8855]

He came back because he had to go to school and he was running for Congress...

Different athletes played the game in different ways. MJ doesn't win a ring until they change the rules and make the game softer.

Im aware of what he was doing.

Unlike the person who made this I actually have an interest in Mikan and people like him. I heard him talking about this subject in one of the ABA documentaries(he was the commish). He knows the game passed him by almost instantly. He and Cousy are two who never bullshitted on that subject.

Mikan didn’t think he compared to the guys after him. And he shouldn’t be expected to. They played a game he largely helped create. He shouldn’t be expected to thrive in a league that was modified to limit the dominance of people like him.

He was a traveling attraction like Andre the Giant being lent from owner to owner to attract gates and keep the league alive.

Hes a top 2-3 impact guy just for keeping the league alive and then shaping the rules around him but he obviously isn’t that from an accomplishment or basketball point of view. It’s like if Shaq only played 99-04. A lot of good stuff happened but when your nba run is like 4-5 years it’s hard to compare to a guy who accomplished so much we simply have to pretend he doesn’t count to even entertain anyone else’s goat argument.

[Thenameless]

He's the first great Laker, and still one of the greatest Lakers ever. Certainly not forgotten on my end.

Shaq loved/respected him so much that he paid for his funeral.

[Kblaze8855]

his job wasn't to lead a fast break. the guy had a job on the block. something Russell could only dream of doing.. he had to beg Tom heinsohn to carry his ass

His job in the 60s would require he get down the court and in position faster than he ever had. Bit of a problem for an always injured slow guy used to no shot clock and being able to camp right next to the basket after walking up the court.

The first time they widened the lane from 6 feet to 12 was the first year he didn’t lead the league in scoring. Who knows if they made it 16 like it was in the 60s and now. Instead of dropping to 38% he might have shot 32. Mikan in 1950 form in 1968 you might think he was a worse scorer than Bill.

[HunterSThompson]

I bet you can’t you can’t name one player that Mikan played against in any of his finals series.

tons of great hall of fame players were in mikans era. I recognize more than half the guys on this list

https://i.ibb.co/8D3x49r/Screenshot-20211228-184249-Chrome.jpg

[FultzNationRISE]

The irony of you calling anyone racist lmfao


Yeah! Youre supposed to be the only loser who does that all the time.

Get outta here Kenneth!

[HunterSThompson]

Great thread OP. Neither Russell nor Mikan is top 100.

I can live with that

[000]

I can live with that
:cheers:

[HunterSThompson]

His job in the 60s would require he get down the court and in position faster than he ever had. Bit of a problem for an always injured slow guy used to no shot clock and being able to camp right next to the basket after walking up the court.

The first time they widened the lane from 6 feet to 12 was the first year he didn’t lead the league in scoring. Who knows if they made it 16 like it was in the 60s and now. Instead of dropping to 38% he might have shot 32. Mikan in 1950 form in 1968 you might think he was a worse scorer than Bill.

yeah that 24 second shot clock wouldn't have been enough time for george sluggy mcslothkan to get down to the other end

[1987_Lakers]

Mikan only played like 5 great seasons in pre shot clock era and you wonder why he is below Russell? lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

Much of Mikan's career happened when the NBA was either not or barely integrated. Dominating an NBA with no or few black players is inarguably not the same level of accomplishment.

Feel free to resume your incessant trolling.

[HunterSThompson]

Much of Mikan's career happened when the NBA was either not or barely integrated. Dominating an NBA with no or few black players is inarguably not the same level of accomplishment.

Feel free to resume your incessant trolling.

damn. I guess that's why nobody likes babe ruth or puts him high all time anymore. baseball fans shit on that fat alcoholic every chance they get.

oh wait no they don't because baseballs fans aren't racist clowns like basketball fans are

[ShawkFactory]

tons of great hall of fame players were in mikans era. I recognize more than half the guys on this list

https://i.ibb.co/8D3x49r/Screenshot-20211228-184249-Chrome.jpg

Had to go to reference :lol

Proving my point again.

[Thenameless]

Much of Mikan's career happened when the NBA was either not or barely integrated. Dominating an NBA with no or few black players is inarguably not the same level of accomplishment.

Feel free to resume your incessant trolling.

This is from out in left field, but a lot of people still think Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time. And he played way before Mikan, also not in an integrated league.

[John8204]

Im aware of what he was doing.

Unlike the person who made this I actually have an interest in Mikan and people like him. I heard him talking about this subject in one of the ABA documentaries(he was the commish). He knows the game passed him by almost instantly. He and Cousy are two who never bullshitted on that subject.

Mikan didn’t think he compared to the guys after him. And he shouldn’t be expected to. They played a game he largely helped create. He shouldn’t be expected to thrive in a league that was modified to limit the dominance of people like him.

He was a traveling attraction like Andre the Giant being lent from owner to owner to attract gates and keep the league alive.

Hes a top 2-3 impact guy just for keeping the league alive and then shaping the rules around him but he obviously isn’t that from an accomplishment or basketball point of view. It’s like if Shaq only played 99-04. A lot of good stuff happened but when your nba run is like 4-5 years it’s hard to compare to a guy who accomplished so much we simply have to pretend he doesn’t count to even entertain anyone else’s goat argument.

The guy has 7 titles for me it's pretty easy...what were the NBA dynasties

Mikan's Lakers
Russell's Celtics
Magic's Lakers
Bird's Celtics
Jordan's Bulls
Duncan's Spurs

Those are the top guys all-time no reason to take one or the other off of a top 10 list. NBA officiating changed because guys were having career's cut short so the game got softer. Different guys played in different eras and the game was different. For me I always look at how players looked against contemporaries not just stats. Because while everyone calls MJ the goat...the guys that played like MJ, Elgin Baylor and Dr. J they didn't get MJ's foul calls and they didn't win titles. It doesn't make one thing better or worse than the other.

[1987_Lakers]

damn. I guess that's why nobody likes babe ruth or puts him high all time anymore. baseball fans shit on that fat alcoholic every chance they get.

oh wait no they don't because baseballs fans aren't racist clowns like basketball fans are

Babe Ruth was a different animal, he was hitting 54 home runs where the #2 leader only hit 19. In fact, Ruth’s 54 home runs that year were more than the total for any American League team except the Yankees. Not only that, but he was a dominant pitcher at one point too.

He was basically Wilt Chamberlain on steroids. Mikan did not dominate his opposition like that.

[HunterSThompson]

Had to go to reference :lol

Proving my point again.

you act like I've never heard of Neil Johnston, Bob cousy, Ed Macauley, Dolph schayes, Bill Sharman, Vern Mikkelson, Bob Davies, Larry Foust, Arnie Risen, Jim Pollard, Joe Fulks or Slater Martin ... these are very common names to any serious NBA fan. there's probly even more from that era. that's just one seasons stat leaders.. mikans era is just as legit as Russell's

[HunterSThompson]

The guy has 7 titles for me it's pretty easy...what were the NBA dynasties

Mikan's Lakers
Russell's Celtics
Magic's Lakers
Bird's Celtics
Jordan's Bulls
Duncan's Spurs

Those are the top guys all-time no reason to take one or the other off of a top 10 list. NBA officiating changed because guys were having career's cut short so the game got softer. Different guys played in different eras and the game was different. For me I always look at how players looked against contemporaries not just stats. Because while everyone calls MJ the goat...the guys that played like MJ, Elgin Baylor and Dr. J they didn't get MJ's foul calls and they didn't win titles. It doesn't make one thing better or worse than the other.

so kobe didn't have a dynasty during the 2000s going to 7 finals and winning 5? interesting. all he did was replace shaq with gasol and end up back in the finals a few years later

[Real Men Wear Green]

damn. I guess that's why nobody likes babe ruth or puts him high all time anymore. baseball fans shit on that fat alcoholic every chance they get.

oh wait no they don't because baseballs fans aren't racist clowns like basketball fans are

Being a racist clown yourself you may not have noticed the high percentage of NBA players that are black. Baseball excluding blacks in Ruth's time is certainly worthy of an asterisk but it's not like the MLB is well over half black like the NBA is. But it is certainly fair to wonder what kind of impact the Negro League stars would have had on Ruth's era.

[John8204]

Much of Mikan's career happened when the NBA was either not or barely integrated. Dominating an NBA with no or few black players is inarguably not the same level of accomplishment.

Feel free to resume your incessant trolling.

So we discount the NBA until late 90's because the league didn't become globally integrated until the late 90's? Do we discount Russell because of the ABA? Should we just erase all of NBA history until the league becomes a complete global meritocracy?

[ralph_i_el]

The jump shot wasn't even popularized during most of Mikan's run.

Like....dudes were breaking out and becoming stars because they figured out to JUMP when they shot.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This is from out in left field, but a lot of people still think Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time. And he played way before Mikan, also not in an integrated league.

It's different because the impact of black athletes on baseball is far smaller than the way they have overwhelmed the NBA. You take out black players you take out 75% of the league. Do that to baseball and it's what, 10%? I am guessing the statistics but this is an area where the racial composition is very different.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So we discount the NBA until late 90's because the league didn't become globally integrated until the late 90's? Do we discount Russell because of the ABA? Should we just erase all of NBA history until the league becomes a complete global meritocracy?

The NBA didn't do anything to exclude players from other countries. For much of the time you discuss America was on a completely different level. We used to win the Olympics with college players.

[John8204]

so kobe didn't have a dynasty during the 2000s going to 7 finals and winning 5? interesting. all he did was replace shaq with gasol and end up back in the finals a few years later

Kobe's a tricky one much like John Havlicek because of the spacing the team around him. Also a big reason I won't put Shaq in the top ten or Kobe top five was because they couldn't play together.

[HunterSThompson]

It's different because the impact of black athletes on baseball is far smaller than the way they have overwhelmed the NBA. You take out black players you take out 75% of the league. Do that to baseball and it's what, 10%? I am guessing the statistics but this is an area where the racial composition is very different.

I've never seen anyone try to prove why racism is justified towards white people in basketball. interesting

so you're saying black people are insignificant in baseball because there's way more great white players all time and even today.

I guess we can treat willie mays and hank aaron like George mikan and throw their accomplishments in the garbage since their skin colour leads us to believe they were anomalys


they were flukes boyz. blacks can't play baseball

[HunterSThompson]

Kobe's a tricky one much like John Havlicek because of the spacing the team around him. Also a big reason I won't put Shaq in the top ten or Kobe top five was because they couldn't play together.

kobe and shaq couldn't play together? interesting. tell us more

[John8204]

The NBA didn't do anything to exclude players from other countries. For much of the time you discuss America was on a completely different level. We used to win the Olympics with college players.

NBA...no but communism did...how many top guys in the NBA would have been able to come over and play in the 70's and 80's?

[000]

Kobe's a tricky one much like John Havlicek because of the spacing the team around him. Also a big reason I won't put Shaq in the top ten or Kobe top five was because they couldn't play together.
You mean "won't put Shaq in the top twenty", right?

[Kblaze8855]

yeah that 24 second shot clock wouldn't have been enough time for george sluggy mcslothkan to get down to the other end

He’d get down there. He could move but he wasn’t used to having to nor was he used to setting up 12-16 feet from the basket. He shot 33-35 percent at lot of the time when they moved him from 6 to 12 and he wasn’t defended by anyone like Russel, Wilt, or Nate Thurmond.

Id have to imagine some of those guys hold him to zero if they decided to be ***** about it and unlike Russell his impact wasn’t in playing the entire game. It wouldn’t be fair to expect him I do anything in such a situation.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I've never seen anyone try to prove why racism is justified towards white people in basketball. interesting

so you're saying black people are insignificant in baseball because there's way more great white players all time and even today.

I guess we can treat willie mays and hank aaron like George mikan and throw their accomplishments in the garbage since their skin colour leads us to believe they were anomalys


they were flukes boyz. blacks can't play baseball

I've never been sure what's stronger in you between the stupid and the crazy.

[John8204]

You mean "won't put Shaq in the top twenty", right?

Yeah but I didn't want to open up that can of worms in a Mikan thread.

[Real Men Wear Green]

NBA...no but communism did...how many top guys in the NBA would have been able to come over and play in the 70's and 80's?

There is certainly reason to believe Sabonis or Oscar Schmidt would have had great careers and I'm sure there are others the NBA didn't get. But generally speaking most of the guys good enough to be in the NBA were in the NBA after the league integrated and most likely are not when it was not. Hopefully you can see the immense difference excluding over 70% of the league would make.

[000]

Yeah but I didn't want to open up that can of worms in a Mikan thread.
Ah, okay. I was slightly worried there is all.

[Baller789]

Kobe's a tricky one much like John Havlicek because of the spacing the team around him. Also a big reason I won't put Shaq in the top ten or Kobe top five was because they couldn't play together.
:crazysam:

[Thenameless]

It's different because the impact of black athletes on baseball is far smaller than the way they have overwhelmed the NBA. You take out black players you take out 75% of the league. Do that to baseball and it's what, 10%? I am guessing the statistics but this is an area where the racial composition is very different.

It seems like they are more significant than 10% in baseball, but I agree, less so than in basketball.

Apart from pitching (I think there was a stigma sort of like quarterbacking but would rather not go down that road), it seemed like black players were pretty dominant in the other positions. I first started watching baseball in the 70's and up to the 90's, these are the significant non-pitchers I remember:

Reggie Jackson (B)
Johnny Bench (W)
Joe Morgan (B)
Pete Rose (W)
Rod Carew (B)
Willie Stargell (B)
Mike Schmidt (W)
Rickey Henderson (B)
George Brett (W)
Eddie Murray (B)
Wade Boggs (W)
Dave Winfield (B)
Ken Griffey Jr. (B)
Frank Thomas (B)
Barry Bonds (B)
Mike Piazza (W)
Mark McGwire (W)

That's a lot more than 10%, and definitely more than 10% when it comes to the most iconic names of the era like Jackson, Griffey, and Bonds. Again, I don't count pitchers because of the same stigma that black quarterbacks got until more recently.

[Kblaze8855]

. The guy has 7 titles for me it's pretty easy


Except he doesn’t. He didn’t even play 7 nba seasons. If we are gonna count all history of the sport there’s plenty of names to list as champions. They played pro basketball before he was born and the NBL was crowning champions when Mikan was 12. We talking about those guys too or are we cutting out only the guys who don’t have famous names?

There were dynasty teams before Mikan and if they didn’t keep the globetrotters out they probably would have been the best of them. They won tournaments with the Pistons in them and beat the lakers in a game they took serious enough to have a fight. The globetrotters beat Mikans lakers with him playing. Doesn’t make Marques Haynes goat tier. Wasn’t nba ball.

Mikan had nba success and a lot of it. Just not as much as some seem to think and he did it juuuuuuust before the league became serious and looked like something we’d recognize as nba basketball. Largely because of his contributions but it is what it is.

He deserves respect. He just did not have the longest nba career or thrive when rules changed. He played 5 years and wasn’t his usual dominant self for a few of those when the lane was just 13 feet and not even the 16 they made it in the 60s.

He played a different game and did more than anyone to save the league early. He just isn’t Bill Russell. It’s quite hard to be in 5 years…

[Real Men Wear Green]

It seems like they are more significant than 10% in baseball, but I agree, less so than in basketball.

Apart from pitching (I think there was a stigma sort of like quarterbacking but would rather not go down that road), it seemed like black players were pretty dominant in the other positions. I first started watching baseball in the 70's and up to the 90's, these are the significant non-pitchers I remember:

Reggie Jackson (B)
Johnny Bench (W)
Joe Morgan (B)
Pete Rose (W)
Rod Carew (B)
Willie Stargell (B)
Mike Schmidt (W)
Rickey Henderson (B)
George Brett (W)
Eddie Murray (B)
Wade Boggs (W)
Dave Winfield (B)
Ken Griffey Jr. (B)
Frank Thomas (B)
Barry Bonds (B)
Mike Piazza (W)
Mark McGwire (W)

That's a lot more than 10%, and definitely more than 10% when it comes to the most iconic names of the era like Jackson, Griffey, and Bonds. Again, I don't count pitchers because of the same stigma that black quarterbacks got until more recently.

I wouldn't debate any of that just pointing out that without black players there would still be many of the stars of the game, enough that it wouldn't just be completely different. You take black men out of the NBA and I don't even know what we're watching. Payton Pritchard would be the best player on the Celtics and Gordon Hayward would have been a perennial MVP candidate. That's a massive impact.

[John8204]

Except he doesn’t. He didn’t even play 7 nba seasons. If we are gonna count all history of the sport there’s plenty of names to list as champions. They played pro basketball before he was born and the NBL was crowning champions when Mikan was 12. We talking about those guys too or are we cutting out only the guys who don’t have famous names?

There were dynasty teams before Mikan and if they didn’t keep the globetrotters out they probably would have been the best of them. They won tournaments with the Pistons in them and beat the lakers in a game they took serious enough to have a fight. The globetrotters beat Mikans lakers with him playing. Doesn’t make Marques Haynes goat tier. Wasn’t nba ball.

Mikan had nba success and a lot of it. Just not as much as some seem to think and he did it juuuuuuust before the league became serious and looked like something we’d recognize as nba basketball. Largely because of his contributions but it is what it is.

He deserves respect. He just did not have the longest nba career or thrive when rules changed. He played 5 years and wasn’t his usual dominant self for a few of those when the lane was just 13 feet and not even the 16 they made it in the 60s.

He played a different game and did more than anyone to save the league early. He just isn’t Bill Russell. It’s quite hard to be in 5 years…

Mikan won in the NBL and BAA which is what the NBA merged into...I think it's pretty silly to say those years don't count for the guy that won in both of those leagues. It would be like saying Jim Brown isn't an NFL great because he never won a SB or played in the SB era. And while it is true that they had a ton of other leagues...those mostly folded you could really only count the ABL as as serious league. And I would love for an arguement about Philadelphia Sphas vs Minneapolis Lakers

[Kblaze8855]

Except the nfl was the nfl long before Jim Brown. The super bowl was an exhibition after the nfl championship. Like the ABA nba exhibitions with a good name thought up by a guy looking to market it. The NBL is more like the pre nfl leagues. Some had teams that became nfl teams but you could almost call it semi pro. A gang of exhibitions. They got shit together and had a real long term league. The nfl was 40 when the afl was founded and it only existed a few years.

Mikan is not Jim Brown at all. Everything Jim Brown did was in the nfl. And his all too brief career was still twice as long as Mikans.

Mikan was a pioneer and should be respected as such. What he did not do is have a long nba career.

[HunterSThompson]

It seems like they are more significant than 10% in baseball, but I agree, less so than in basketball.

Apart from pitching (I think there was a stigma sort of like quarterbacking but would rather not go down that road), it seemed like black players were pretty dominant in the other positions. I first started watching baseball in the 70's and up to the 90's, these are the significant non-pitchers I remember:

Reggie Jackson (B)
Johnny Bench (W)
Joe Morgan (B)
Pete Rose (W)
Rod Carew (B)
Willie Stargell (B)
Mike Schmidt (W)
Rickey Henderson (B)
George Brett (W)
Eddie Murray (B)
Wade Boggs (W)
Dave Winfield (B)
Ken Griffey Jr. (B)
Frank Thomas (B)
Barry Bonds (B)
Mike Piazza (W)
Mark McGwire (W)

That's a lot more than 10%, and definitely more than 10% when it comes to the most iconic names of the era like Jackson, Griffey, and Bonds. Again, I don't count pitchers because of the same stigma that black quarterbacks got until more recently.

jesus.. did you even see these guys play

Ryne Sandberg (W)
Ron Santo (W)
Jim Thome (W)
Craig Biggio (W)
Gary Carter (W)
Paul Molitor (W)
Don Mattingly (W)
Carlton Fisk (W)
Jeff Bagwell (W)
Robin Yount (W)
Chipper Jones (W)
Cal Ripken Jr (W)
Larry Walker (W)
Dale Murphy (W)
Jim Edmonds (W)
Steve Garvey (W)


i could list 50 more from the 70s to the 90s


and why are pitchers disqualified

[HunterSThompson]

Except the nfl was the nfl long before Jim Brown. The super bowl was an exhibition after the nfl championship. Like the ABA nba exhibitions with a good name thought up by a guy looking to market it. The NBL is more like the pre nfl leagues. Some had teams that became nfl teams but you could almost call it semi pro. A gang of exhibitions. They got shit together and had a real long term league. The nfl was 40 when the afl was founded and it only existed a few years.

Mikan is not Jim Brown at all. Everything Jim Brown did was in the nfl. And his all too brief career was still twice as long as Mikans.

Mikan was a pioneer and should be respected as such. What he did not do is have a long nba career.

the nba when russell played is less like the nba today than the nfl is today compared to what it was when jim brown played or when babe ruth played baseball

it would be like baseball adding a 2 run fence behind the regular one at 450 feet since the 80s and trying to compare the eras after that


if you think the shot clock change disqualifies mikan then the 3 point line disqualifies everyone since or before that change

[John8204]

Except the nfl was the nfl long before Jim Brown. The super bowl was an exhibition after the nfl championship. Like the ABA nba exhibitions with a good name thought up by a guy looking to market it. The NBL is more like the pre nfl leagues. Some had teams that became nfl teams but you could almost call it semi pro. A gang of exhibitions. They got shit together and had a real long term league. The nfl was 40 when the afl was founded and it only existed a few years.

Mikan is not Jim Brown at all. Everything Jim Brown did was in the nfl. And his all too brief career was still twice as long as Mikans.

Mikan was a pioneer and should be respected as such. What he did not do is have a long nba career.

Brown only played 9 seasons...Mikan played 10...you want to discount 3 of them so even then I don't get how we come to twice as long. NBL started in 38', ABL'26, NFL 20', AFL 60'. You can say those were "semi-pro" leagues but what would be the pro league? It seems to me you want to define the league based on a standard that's frankly arbitrary. The reason why Mikan is special and a top guy is in those 50 years of pro-ball Mikan's the only guy with a legacy. Not even Babe Ruth has that...because Walter Johnson, Cy Young, and Ty Cobb exist.

[Kblaze8855]

the nba when russell played is less like the nba today than the nfl is today compared to what it was when jim brown played or when babe ruth played baseball

it would be like baseball adding a 2 run fence behind the regular one at 450 feet since the 80s and trying to compare the eras after that


if you think the shot clock change disqualifies mikan then the 3 point line disqualifies everyone since or before that change

There is no disqualification. Guy just didn’t play very long to be compared to guys who played 2-3 times as long especially the most decorated player ever. Other leagues never counted in rankings and if we do there’s a lot more reason to count the ABA than the couple semi pro leagues of exhibition games played since the 20s between teams thrown together by a car dealer who changes the team name yearly for a 200 dollar sponsorship and had them playing in dance halls and armory parking lots.

Mikan has a spot somewhere but it’s not where Bill Russell is.

[HylianNightmare]

What I would give for highlights of these guys

[iamgine]

The real answer is, Mikan can definitely be top 10. Even counted as the GOAT.

Even James Naismith, who really really sucks at basketball, can be considered basketball GOAT.

It just depends on your criteria.

If the criteria consider basketball ability or potential to transcend eras, then Mikan will drop down significantly. For example, Bill Russell potentially is really good in today's NBA while I'm not sure Mikan would even make the G-league's 15th man.

[Dagoods]

I can school both of these pieces of trash put together!!!

[HunterSThompson]

The real answer is, Mikan can definitely be top 10. Even counted as the GOAT.

Even James Naismith, who really really sucks at basketball, can be considered basketball GOAT.

It just depends on your criteria.

If the criteria consider basketball ability or potential to transcend eras, then Mikan will drop down significantly. For example, Bill Russell potentially is really good in today's NBA while I'm not sure Mikan would even make the G-league's 15th man.

Russell would be a role player today like draymond green but without the crappy three and solid handle. instead he would have a God awful handle and a non existent three. he would be on the bench with mikan fighting for garbage minutes. and yes they could try and learn the skills to play today but you could say that about anyone. it's about their skills in their time. and they played a completely different style of basketball than what's played today. both would suck. at best Russell would play a Rodman role and even that's obsolete for today's game. mikan would be absolute dog shit. bit that isn't how you judge guys or else neither would be top 100 all time. both should be considered as top 10-15 players and no higher just out of respect. that would be fair to them and others that came since them that are obviously way f*cking better

[John8204]

The real answer is, Mikan can definitely be top 10. Even counted as the GOAT.

Even James Naismith, who really really sucks at basketball, can be considered basketball GOAT.

It just depends on your criteria.

If the criteria consider basketball ability or potential to transcend eras, then Mikan will drop down significantly. For example, Bill Russell potentially is really good in today's NBA while I'm not sure Mikan would even make the G-league's 15th man.

Mikan was the 2nd best shooter of his era...and they didn't dunk. I think Bill would be very good in the NBA up until the 90's when the officiating changed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHcpuSRQ2vc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y6_6AVy9rQ

You could put Mikan in any era and he would have been an MVP and Hall of Famer

The real question is seeing as how badly Jordan got knocked around how would he have faired in the rougher eras of the 50's/60's?

[iamgine]

Russell would be a role player today like draymond green but without the crappy three and solid handle. instead he would have a God awful handle and a non existent three. he would be on the bench with mikan fighting for garbage minutes. and yes they could try and learn the skills to play today but you could say that about anyone. it's about their skills in their time. and they played a completely different style of basketball than what's played today. both would suck. at best Russell would play a Rodman role and even that's obsolete for today's game. mikan would be absolute dog shit. bit that isn't how you judge guys or else neither would be top 100 all time. both should be considered as top 10-15 players and no higher just out of respect. that would be fair to them and others that came since them that are obviously way f*cking better
As I said, it depends on your criteria. It's subjective anyways. For example, why should both be considered top 10-15 and no higher or lower?

[HunterSThompson]

As I said, it depends on your criteria. It's subjective anyways. For example, why should both be considered top 10-15 and no higher or lower?

because it's about goat canadates over eras and the better players should be ahead.

there's probably around 15 or 16 goats from all eras

50s - mikan
60s - Oscar, Russell, wilt
70s - Kareem, Dr J
80s - magic, Bird
90s - jordan, Hakeem
00s - Kobe, Shaq, Duncan
10s - lebron, Durant, curry

so mikan and Russell should probably be 14th and 15th with only Wilt being ahead of them from.the 60s and everyone else being ahead of them since

give them an all time spot but don't put them ahead of other goats of their era that obviously had way more talent

[iamgine]

because it's about goat canadates over eras and the better players should be ahead.

there's probably around 15 or 16 goats from all eras

50s - mikan
60s - Oscar, Russell, wilt
70s - Kareem, Dr J
80s - magic, Bird
90s - jordan, Hakeem
00s - Kobe, Shaq, Duncan
10s - lebron, Durant, curry

so mikan and Russell should probably be 14th and 15th with only Wilt being ahead of them from.the 60s and everyone else being ahead of them since

give them an all time spot but don't put them ahead of other goats of their era that obviously had way more talent
See that's a very subjective reason. Why use 10 years? Why not use century? Or per 30 years?

[HunterSThompson]

See that's a very subjective reason. Why use 10 years? Why not use century? Or per 30 years?

cause guys primes are around 10 years and even if they overlap a bit we can count them towards a decade like Shaq for the 00s with a bit of a 90s boost


and there's usually only 2 or 3 guys every decade that really stand out

[iamgine]

cause guys primes are around 10 years and even if they overlap a bit we can count them towards a decade like Shaq for the 00s with a bit of a 90s boost


and there's usually only 2 or 3 guys every decade that really stand out
If that's your subjective criteria then great.

[csh19792001]

yeah it's obviously because he played in a weaker era. nobody from the old days is respected. which is why Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, wilt Chamberlain, elgin Baylor and other guys are completely forgotten today.

Only on this (totally) vapid forum, which is quite clearly 80% trollers/spammers/and ****ing teenagers slash Gen Z's with zero historical interest, or acumen, or experience/study.

Join RealGM Forums, Serious Folks and Actual Historians.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=243

It's 100x the forum this one is for serious fans and basketball historians.... and...unlike this sewer....it's not 95% constituted of incessant, never ending Lebron James Circle Jerk Threads.

[TheGoatest]

why is Bill Russell top 5 all time and George Mikan isn't even top 30

You shouldn't be asking about top 5/top 30. You should be asking yourself and fellow Jordan stans why Russell and Mikan aren't considered to be #1 and #2 of all time, as they should be based on your fellow Jordan stan customized criteria for greatness that completely ignores longevity.

[HunterSThompson]

Only on this (totally) vapid forum, which is quite clearly 80% trollers/spammers/and ****ing teenagers slash Gen Z's with zero historical interest, or acumen, or experience/study.

Join RealGM Forums, Serious Folks and Actual Historians.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=243

It's 100x the forum this one is for serious fans and basketball historians.... and...unlike this sewer....it's not 95% constituted of incessant, never ending Lebron James Circle Jerk Threads.

sorry I forgot the green font. that's the one for sarcasm right because my point was to show only black guys are remembered and respected mostly while the mikans and pettits of the world are completely forgotten

and realgm is full of idiots. this reply being a perfect example

they have garnett, Robinson, Malone ahead of kobe all time. theyre a collection of biased lebron geeks that ban anyone that disagrees with their backpacks shit formula lol

[LAL]

Interesting thread OP. Mikan had great touch, truly showed the basketball world how to be a dominant C. Very humble too from what i saw.


kobe and shaq couldn't play together? interesting. tell us more

:roll: :roll:

[LAL]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConstantHeavenlyAfricanbushviper-size_restricted.gif

Yeah Wilt was known for his physical traits, but he also wasn't trying to score really during that time for some odd reason (better bigger black players?) and went for that assist titles while his passing wasn't even special. Bet he was overpassing like crazy.

And was that Monroe deciding to not pass to one of his 2 trailing teammates?