Lebron couldn't make the Finals, so he formed super-teams...

[3ba11]

and therefore can't carry bums to Finals - he literally formed super-teams because he COULDN'T make the Finals.

He had a one-off in 07' like his peers (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd), and then he had the best 2nd option in the 2018 East (a veteran champion, 2-star team).

[John8204]

I'd argue that none of his teams were "super teams", Davis, Westbrook, Bosh, Wade, Irving, and Love are fine I'd rank any mix of them lower than the Celtics (Pierce, Allen, Rondo, KG), Spurs, and Warriors.

[Spurs m8]

More often than not, he couldn't couldn't carry these superteams over the line when it matters...
He would get swept or lose in 5.

Weak Conference and collusion can only get you so far...

[ShawkFactory]

Original thread

[Spurs m8]

I'd argue that none of his teams were "super teams", Davis, Westbrook, Bosh, Wade, Irving, and Love are fine I'd rank any mix of them lower than the Celtics (Pierce, Allen, Rondo, KG), Spurs, and Warriors.

Yeah but you're only new to basketball and don't know shit

[AlternativeAcc.]

Whats your address

I am willing to give you 50k in cash to sit down and have a debate with me man to man.


Let me know I can change your life

[1987_Lakers]

and therefore can't carry bums to Finals - he literally formed super-teams because he COULDN'T make the Finals.

He had a one-off in 07' like his peers (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd), and then he had the best 2nd option in the 2018 East (a veteran champion, 2-star team).

He did in 2018.

Love: 15/10 on 39 fg%.

Love was a worse second option than any version of Pippen from '91-'98.

/thread.

[3ba11]

I'd argue that none of his teams were "super teams", Davis, Westbrook, Bosh, Wade, Irving, and Love are fine I'd rank any mix of them lower than the Celtics (Pierce, Allen, Rondo, KG), Spurs, and Warriors.


His teams were the on-paper preseason favorite for 7 straight years from 2010-2016 - his super-teams were so unfair that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

Only Lebron had sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's (the most help possible) in the 11', 16', and 20' Playoffs.

In 2010, Lebron looked around the league and said "Aside from me, who has the highest PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP??.. aka who is the #2 producer aside from me?."....

And he teamed up with that guy (Wade) and then added a top 3 PF... That's like Kobe teaming up with Tmac and then adding Amar'e, or Magic teaming up with Bird/McHale

Btw, the 2010 Celtics were post Garnett's injury and were a shell - they were massive underdogs to the league favorite Cavs, but Rondo completely dominated Lebron, while Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to choke away the series.

[k0kakw0rld]

and therefore can't carry bums to Finals - he literally formed super-teams because he COULDN'T make the Finals.

He had a one-off in 07' like his peers (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd), and then he had the best 2nd option in the 2018 East (a veteran champion, 2-star team).
2007 doesn't count?

He was on his way to terrorize the East until the Celtics brought in KG + Ray Allen. You obviously do not know anything about the history of the NBA. A franchise literally constructed a team to stop one guy. Just to show how GREAT the man is.

[John8204]

His teams were the on-paper preseason favorite for 7 straight years from 2010-2016 - his super-teams were so unfair that KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

Only Lebron had sidekicks that outplayed league MVP's (the most help possible) in the 11', 16', and 20' Playoffs.

In 2010, Lebron looked around the league and said "Aside from me, who has the highest PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP??.. aka who is the #2 producer aside from me?."....

And he teamed up with that guy (Wade) and then added a top 3 PF... That's like Kobe teaming up with Tmac and then adding Amar'e, or Magic teaming up with Bird/McHale

See the thing with betting is "favorite" is based on a betting line...so money went on Lebron a big reason for that is his years making the finals. You knew his eastern team was going to make the finals so the probability of those teams was high. The west had more good teams so the money got spread out more.

It's hard for me to call any team Lebron was on a "Super-Team" as I wouldn't have any of Lebron's teams as top ten all-time. But that's just me.

[3ba11]

2007 doesn't count?

He was on his way to terrorize the East until the Celtics brought in KG + Ray Allen. You obviously do not know anything about the history of the NBA. A franchise literally constructed a team to stop one guy. Just to show how GREAT the man is.


The only reason the Cavs didn't beat the Celtics in 2008 is because Lebron averaged 26 on 35%.. He simply wasn't good enough to perform well against championship comp (22 on 35% in the 07' Finals).

And you're forgetting history that Garnett got hurt and the Celtics were a shell after that, including massive underdogs in 2010 to the league favorite Cavs.. But Lebron wet the bed again by averaging 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to choke away the series against a Rondo-led underdog team.

Btw, his high scoring was too ball-dominant in 2009, so he lost as a HISTORIC favorite to Dwight's 1-star team, who moved the ball better for better looks

After choking miserably from 08-10', he formed super-teams..

It's sad because Mo Williams joined a bummy, 45-win team and his spacing effect made them 66-win league favorites.. Then they added Jamison/Shaq to the 66-win league juggernaut but lost again as the heavy favorite.. Then he formed super-teams..

[1987_Lakers]

He did in 2018.

Love: 15/10 on 39 fg%.

Love was a worse second option than any version of Pippen from '91-'98.

/thread.

of course 3ball ignores this. lol

[SouBeachTalents]

and therefore can't carry bums to Finals - he literally formed super-teams because he COULDN'T make the Finals.

He had a one-off in 07' like his peers (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd), and then he had the best 2nd option in the 2018 East (a veteran champion, 2-star team).
I'm definitely taking Middleton, Lowry, Horford & Beal over Love in 2018

[3ba11]

He did in 2018.

Love: 15/10 on 39 fg%.

Love was a worse second option than any version of Pippen from '91-'98.

/thread.


A good cast was never needed to win the East, yet Love still averaged 20/10 against the only top 5 SRS opponents in those playoffs (Raptors and Warriors) because Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs in 2 decades).

Remember, his high scoring is too ball-dominant or inefficient at the higher jumpshooting volume to carry bed-wetting teammates over good teams or carry the scoring load on the Finals level

[1987_Lakers]

A good cast was never needed to win the East, yet Love still averaged 20/10 against the only top 5 SRS opponents in those playoffs (Raptors and Warriors) because Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs in 2 decades).

Remember, his high scoring is too ball-dominant or inefficient at the higher jumpshooting volume to carry bed-wetting teammates over good teams or carry the scoring load on the Finals level

Still had a worse playoff run than any version of Pippen from '91-'98, hell and MJ still had a solid cast behind him in Horace or Rodman, & Kukoc etc. while not having to worry about playing an all-time great team in the playoffs.

And we all know Kevin Love basically missed game 6 & 7 vs Boston in '18 when the Cavs were down 3-2, then this happened...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDtqJjuQYoc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n68wund21Ps

Basically averaged 40 ppg in the final 2 games without Love to carry the Cavs to the Finals.

[kawhileonard2]

How come all of the teams Lebron plays on suck despite him playing with guys who won league mvp, finals mvp's, DPOY, averaged Triple Doubles for a Season, scoring titles all in there primes?

[3ba11]

How come all of the teams Lebron plays on suck despite him playing with guys who won league mvp, finals mvp's, DPOY, averaged Triple Doubles for a Season, scoring titles all in there primes?


Lebron's skill restriction to ball-dominance reduces every incoming player to spot-up roles, so there's a constant need for more help to offset the reduction.. it's like a ponzi scheme that needs more inflow of cash

Ultimately, Lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time) - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

[John8204]

How come all of the teams Lebron plays on suck despite him playing with guys who won league mvp, finals mvp's, DPOY, averaged Triple Doubles for a Season, scoring titles all in there primes?

And yet it seems like every season we get new super teams all over the league. It's almost like they aren't special or real and people just being hysterical and prisoners of the moment.

[3ba11]

And yet it seems like every season we get new super teams all over the league. It's almost like they aren't special or real and people just being hysterical and prisoners of the moment.


Only the Lakers have 3 perennial all-stars (super-team)

[Airupthere]

Combination of forming superteams and being in a weak conference made it a clear path to the finals.

[k0kakw0rld]

The only reason the Cavs didn't beat the Celtics in 2008 is because Lebron averaged 26 on 35%.. He simply wasn't good enough to perform well against championship comp (22 on 35% in the 07' Finals).

And you're forgetting history that Garnett got hurt and the Celtics were a shell after that, including massive underdogs in 2010 to the league favorite Cavs.. But Lebron wet the bed again by averaging 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to choke away the series against a Rondo-led underdog team.

Btw, his high scoring was too ball-dominant in 2009, so he lost as a HISTORIC favorite to Dwight's 1-star team, who moved the ball better for better looks

After choking miserably from 08-10', he formed super-teams..

It's sad because Mo Williams joined a bummy, 45-win team and his spacing effect made them 66-win league favorites.. Then they added Jamison/Shaq to the 66-win league juggernaut but lost again as the heavy favorite.. Then he formed super-teams..

Jamison/Shaq come on man :oldlol::roll: Were they even considered NBA players at that point? LOL

[RRR3]

I love how people pretend LeBron winning with AD+role players means he had a superteam lol. That means almost every NBA champion ever was a superteam. Narrative doesn't work for that one, give it up.

[Baller789]

I love how people pretend LeBron winning with AD+role players means he had a superteam lol. That means almost every NBA champion ever was a superteam. Narrative doesn't work for that one, give it up.

Who?

[000]

I love how people pretend LeBron winning with AD+role players means he had a superteam lol. That means almost every NBA champion ever was a superteam. Narrative doesn't work for that one, give it up.

Do you mean AD winning with Lebron?

[Johnny32]

I love how people pretend LeBron winning with AD+role players means he had a superteam lol. That means almost every NBA champion ever was a superteam. Narrative doesn't work for that one, give it up.

hold up! you don't consider kuz or kcp superstars?

[Baller789]

To Lebrontards, who here said that Lebron+AD is a superteam?

[Johnny32]

and therefore can't carry bums to Finals - he literally formed super-teams because he COULDN'T make the Finals.

He had a one-off in 07' like his peers (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd), and then he had the best 2nd option in the 2018 East (a veteran champion, 2-star team).

2018 ecf

brown - 20 ppg on 44%
tatum - 18 ppg on 50%
horford - 14 ppg on 48%
rozier - 14 ppg on 38%
morris 13 ppg on 39%

legoat - 34 ppg on 52%
love - 12 ppg on 37%

hurrr, best second option in the 2018 east, durrr

[Baller789]

2018 ecf

brown - 20 ppg on 44%
tatum - 18 ppg on 50%
horford - 14 ppg on 48%
rozier - 14 ppg on 38%
morris 13 ppg on 39%

legoat - 34 ppg on 52%
love - 12 ppg on 37%

hurrr, best second option in the 2018 east, durrr

Hey Johnnyboi, maybe you could help your fellow Lebron Homer here.

Do you know the poster who's saying that Lebron+AD is a superteam?

RRR3 seems to be having a mental glitch.

[Johnny32]

2018 ecf

brown - 20 ppg on 44%
tatum - 18 ppg on 50%
horford - 14 ppg on 48%
rozier - 14 ppg on 38%
morris 13 ppg on 39%

legoat - 34 ppg on 52%
love - 12 ppg on 37%

hurrr, best second option in the 2018 east, durrr

2018 1st rd

oladipo - 23 ppg on 42%
bojan - 12 ppg on 40%
sabonis - 12 ppg on 58%
turner - 12 ppg on 61%
collision - 11 ppg on 46%

legoat - 34 ppg on 55%
love - 11 ppg on 33%

hurrr, best second option in the 2018 east, durrr

[Spurs m8]

Can someone please share his Finals record before colluding multiple times?

What was his playoff record out West like, without AD?

[3ba11]

2018 1st rd

oladipo - 23 ppg on 42%
bojan - 12 ppg on 40%
sabonis - 12 ppg on 58%
turner - 12 ppg on 61%
collision - 11 ppg on 46%

legoat - 34 ppg on 55%
love - 11 ppg on 33%

hurrr, best second option in the 2018 east, durrr


Everyone has carry-jobs against bad teams - that's literally nothing.

Otoh, Lebron needed Love to get 20 on 47% against the good teams (top 5 SRS Raptors and Warriors), because he never beat top 5 SRS teams or Finals teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing).

Otoh, MJ beat top teams all the time with poor scoring and efficiency from Pippen - see the 96' Finals, 98' Finals, 98' ECF, 97' ECF, or 89' 1st Round.

Heck, the 89' Cavs were #1 SRS and better than any team that Lebron beat in the East, yet Jordan beat them with a lottery low seed with zero good teammates.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

After a one-off Finals like Iverson, Dwight, Kidd or Butler, Lebron couldn't win the East and make the Finals, so he formed super-teams

[Ne 1]

.
Thread Cliffs

After a one-off Finals like Iverson, Dwight, Kidd or Butler, Lebron couldn't win the East and make the Finals, so he formed super-teams

LeBron formed a big 3 in response to Boston’s Big 3.

[3ba11]

LeBron formed a big 3 in response to Boston’s Big 3.


Jordan's conference had the Celtics super-teams and Bad Boy dynasty, yet he never formed super-teams.

More importantly, the 2010 Cavs were heavily-favored over the Rondo-led Celtics but lost a 2-1 lead because Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games..

So he simply didn't like the hard work required to beat an aging champion, whereas Jordan recovered from similar losses in 89' and 90' to conquer a dynasty in 91'..

Isiah/Dumars/Rodman were only 29/27/29 when MJ beat them, while Lebron needed a super-team to beat the fossil Celtics in 2012 (KG/Allen/Pierce were 35/36/34)

[Wally450]

Didn't read the thread, but I'm sure people came in and proved OPs point to be incorrect, so he decided to move goalposts. Much like every 3ball thread.

[3ba11]

Didn't read the thread, but I'm sure people came in and proved OPs point to be incorrect, so he decided to move goalposts. Much like every 3ball thread.


I'm not making a "point" or "argument".

I'm stating the historical record that Lebron couldn't make the Finals, so he formed super-teams.

So he can't carry anyone to the Finals, since he literally formed super-teams because he couldn't.

[TheCorporation]

He did in 2018.

Love: 15/10 on 39 fg%.

Love was a worse second option than any version of Pippen from '91-'98.

/thread.
ANNNNNND

B
I
N
G
O

was his name-O

[BigShotBob]

No dip

No chip

[Baller789]

No dip

No chip

Pretty much.
0 rings without collusions.

[ELITEpower23]

He did in 2018.

Love: 15/10 on 39 fg%.

Love was a worse second option than any version of Pippen from '91-'98.

/thread.

/thread

[Baller789]

ANNNNNND

B
I
N
G
O

was his name-O


/thread

Cool.

Who was his competition in the East that year?

Feel free to respond with the alt of your choosing.

[3ba11]

Still had a worse playoff run than any version of Pippen from '91-'98





Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the FINALS - that's worse than Love

So Jordan carried Pippen's 15 on 34% over Finals teams, while Lebron only beat trash teams with Love playing better than Pippen.

ONLY MJ carried a bed-wetting Pippen over the good teams and Finals teams, while Lebron never carried anyone over any good team or Finals team






And we all know Kevin Love basically missed game 6 & 7 vs Boston in '18 when the Cavs were down 3-2, then this happened...

Basically averaged 40 ppg in the final 2 games without Love to carry the Cavs to the Finals.





^^^ carry-jobs against really bad teams, which literally everyone has

Otoh, Lebron has zero carry-jobs against good teams, aka Finals teams or top 5 SRS team

This isn't opinion - it's historical record that Lebron has zero carry-jobs against good teams, aka Finals teams or top 5 SRS team

[1987_Lakers]

^^^ carry-jobs against really bad teams, which literally everyone has


Young MJ couldn't even carry a Bulls team to the playoffs (by today's standards) despite having a 20 ppg 2nd option.

[3ba11]

Young MJ couldn't even carry a Bulls team to the playoffs (by today's standards) despite having a 20 ppg 2nd option.


Plenty of 30-something win teams make the playoffs today, like the 34-win Wizards last year or the 36-win Celtics

Otoh, Lebron barely won 40 with the East all-star center and needed to add a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs..

[1987_Lakers]

Plenty of 30-something win teams make the playoffs today, like the 34-win Wizards last year or the 36-win Celtics


Yea, and if half the teams made the playoffs in the 80's like they do today instead of 2/3 of the league, MJ wouldn't have made the playoffs until his 4th season. Let that sink in.

[3ba11]

Yea, and if half the teams made the playoffs in the 80's like they do today instead of 2/3 of the league, MJ wouldn't have made the playoffs until his 4th season. Let that sink in.


If 2/3 of the league made it today (like in the 80's), then Lebron's 9 seeds from 04, 05' and 19' would've made it as 8 seeds and been blown away by the 04' Pistons or 19' Warriors (with KD before he got hurt)

That would make Lebron 1-9 like Jordan..

However, unlike Luka Doncic or MJ, Lebron failed to carry lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low playoff seeds in 04', 05' and 19', so he never carried his worst teams in the playoffs or had low seeds (no 8 vs 1 matchups) - he needed 3 years to develop into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs and always had high seeds thereafter..

Obviously, when MJ had 3 healthy years to develop his team (88'), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron, except he had lottery casts and low seeds in a conference that required super-teams to win, while Lebron had veteran high seeds in a conference that 1 star teams were winning.

Ultimately, the East didn't require a good team to win it most years and Lebron was trash out West without AD, so Lebron never carried teams - he infact couldn't win the East with home court advantage in 2009 and 2010, so he formed super-teams.

[1987_Lakers]

If 2/3 of the league made it today (like in the 80's), then Lebron's 9 seeds from 04, 05' and 19' would've made it as 8 seeds and been blown away the 04' Pistons or 19' Warriors (with KD before he got hurt)

That would make Lebron 1-9 like Jordan..


1-9 wouldn't exist because LeBron won titles with different rosters throughout his career.

MJ NEVER won anything without Pippen, that's what makes "1-9" a thing around here.

[3ba11]

1-9 wouldn't exist because LeBron won titles with different rosters throughout his career.

MJ NEVER won anything without Pippen, that's what makes "1-9" a thing around here.


Lebron didn't need Pippen - he just needed to team-hop for MULTIPLE pippen's, aka super-teams (3rd all-star teammates)

Or he needed a "jordan" to lead in scoring out west (lebron is the 2nd option out west in regular season and playoffs, so he was a "pippen" out west)

So who do you guys think you're fooling with 1-9?.. Everyone knows that the only years Jordan didn't have Pippen are the years that basically EVERYONE loses (durant, lebron, curry and giannis didn't win any playoff series in their first few seasons either).. So it's obviously a timing thing and has nothing to do with rookie 8 ppg Pippen.

Ultimately, Pippen had the lowest peak scoring, assists or efficiency of any notable sidekick in the 90's, while also being the only notable sidekick that never led the team in any series (never a 1b) - every other sidekick was actually a 1b that led the team in various series or playoff runs.. And the bulls are the only team that won more than 2 Finals without a teammate getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so MJ won 3 times as many Finals as anyone else with a low-producing sidekick.

[1987_Lakers]

So who do you guys think you're fooling with 1-9?.. Everyone knows that the only years Jordan didn't have Pippen are the years that basically EVERYONE loses (durant, lebron, curry and giannis didn't win any playoff series in their first few seasons either).. So it's obviously a timing thing and has nothing to do with rookie 8 ppg Pippen.

I agree, we should get rid of 1-9 and simply go with "No Pip, no playoffs" since we know MJ missed the playoffs without Pippen (by today's standards).

[3ba11]

I agree, we should get rid of 1-9 and simply go with "No Pip, no playoffs" since we know MJ missed the playoffs without Pippen (by today's standards).


The leagues are different sizes so we don't know how much Jordan's teams would win today or Lebron's teams back then.. That's a dumb comparison that I guess comes from losing the argument.

However, we do know that Jordan would never win a paltry 40 games or miss the playoffs with the East all-star center - only a frontcourt ball-dominator with shitty strategy/brand would underachieve talent like that.. I'm guessing that he did that his entire career (underachieved his team's expectation)

Ultimately, the East didn't require a good team to win it most years and Lebron was trash out West without AD, so Lebron never carried teams - he infact couldn't win the East with home court advantage in 2009 and 2010, so he formed super-teams.

[Spurs m8]

Jesus christ, lakers guy just taking pounding after pounding after pounding