Lebron's tenure in the West confirms that he simply benefitted from a weak East

[3ba11]

He's a low seed or lottery in the West without AD carrying the team statistically - that's the historical record.

His days of "carrying" high seeds and super-teams over 0-star teams like Oladipo are over and now we see how shitty a 6'9" Westbrooker really is

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron's tenure in the west all occurred post season 15 lol. Wow what a revelation.

What next you mean to tell me his jersey number is 23??

[1987_Lakers]

MJ never beat Bird.

[imdaman99]

It's true the West has a gauntlet but if he was in his prime and was getting other players in their prime? He would make it to the finals 5+ times and likely win them all because he owned everyone in the east.

[ThRRR3tardSatan]

MJ never beat Bird.

Lebron always beats off AD.

AD stands for all day.

"I love it!" - AD

http://i.4pcdn.org/sp/1384033884070.gif



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSBG3xx7oCc


Ba da da da da butthole, Lebron makes love to men.

[SouBeachTalents]

You’d think a Jordan fan would know better than to bring up a players record without a specific teammate :lol

[TheCorporation]

1-9

[3ba11]

It's true the West has a gauntlet but if he was in his prime and was getting other players in their prime? He would make it to the finals 5+ times and likely win them all because he owned everyone in the east.


Lebron didn't own the East because he literally formed super-teams because he COULDN'T win the East.. If he makes the Finals as expected in 09' and 10' then everything is different and there's no "decision".

Furthermore, no one was "getting other players in their prime" before the "decision" - that's the only time a guy teamed up with other mega stars (top 3 player) in their prime..

Lebron essentially asked the league:

"Aside from me, who has the next-best PER, WS/48, BPM and VORP?"... And he teamed up with that guy (Wade) - it's like Kobe teaming up with Tmac or Magic teaming up with Bird, aka UNPRECEDENTED.

So are you saying Lebron would've teamed up with Kobe out West? Because Wade was far superior to Kobe in 2010 (twice the BPM - destroys Kobe across the board).. In other words, Lebron would've just had a regular team out West because that was the norm - deck-stacking wasn't a thing and he would've been destroyed if he tried to team up with Kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron didn't own the East because he literally formed super-teams because he COULDN'T win the East.. If he makes the Finals as expected in 09' and 10' then everything is different and there's no "decision".

Furthermore, no one was "getting other players in their prime" before the "decision" - that's the only time a guy teamed up with other mega stars (top 3 player) in their prime..

Lebron essentially asked the league:

"Aside from me, who has the next-best PER, WS/48, BPM and VORP?"... And he teamed up with that guy (Wade) - it's like Kobe teaming up with Tmac or Magic teaming up with Bird, aka UNPRECEDENTED.

So are you saying Lebron would've teamed up with Kobe out West? Because Wade was far superior to Kobe in 2010 (twice the BPM - destroys Kobe across the board).. In other words, Lebron would've just had a regular team out West because that was the norm - deck-stacking wasn't a thing and he would've been destroyed if he tried to team up with Kobe.
This is a perfect example of why OP is completely dishonest while making arguments. Here he uses solely advanced metrics to determine that Wade was not only better than Kobe, but MUCH better than him in 2010. But when LeBron has an even greater advantage using literally the exact same criteria, not only over just Kobe, but virtually every other player in history besides Jordan, suddenly that criteria that was important one sentence ago becomes completely irrelevant.

Wade is much better than Kobe due to advanced metrics, but LeBron isn’t when he has the exact same advantage. An entirely new criteria suddenly emerges that’s specifically only applied to LeBron, and nobody else :lol

[John8204]

I don't know that the west wasn't weaker than the east...

2003 - Pacers/Nets
2004 - Heat/Pistons
2005 - Pistons/Heat
2006 - Pistons/Cavs
2007 - Celtics/Pistons
2008 - Cavs/Celtics
2009 - Cavs/Magic
2010 - Bulls/Heat
2011 - Bulls/Heat
2012 - Heat/Knicks
2013 - Pacers/Heat
2014 - Hawks/Cavs
2015 - Cavs/Raptors
2016 - Celtics/Cavs
2017 - Raptors/Celtics

Lebron was the top seed what 4 times, and 10 different teams made the top two seeds during Lebron's tenure. Seems like Lebron had a wider variety of competition in the East and opposed to just the rival teams in the West.

[Johnny32]

pretty sure op is leaustic.

[warriorfan]

I don't know that the west wasn't weaker than the east...

2003 - Pacers/Nets
2004 - Heat/Pistons
2005 - Pistons/Heat
2006 - Pistons/Cavs
2007 - Celtics/Pistons
2008 - Cavs/Celtics
2009 - Cavs/Magic
2010 - Bulls/Heat
2011 - Bulls/Heat
2012 - Heat/Knicks
2013 - Pacers/Heat
2014 - Hawks/Cavs
2015 - Cavs/Raptors
2016 - Celtics/Cavs
2017 - Raptors/Celtics

Lebron was the top seed what 4 times, and 10 different teams made the top two seeds during Lebron's tenure. Seems like Lebron had a wider variety of competition in the East and opposed to just the rival teams in the West.

Lowest iq post of all time. Congratulations.

[AirBonner]

LeBron won a title while being in the west. Something you all said couldn’t be dome

[ShawkFactory]

Isn't the East like..at lot better than the West this year?

[Bronbron23]

He's a low seed or lottery in the West without AD carrying the team statistically - that's the historical record.

His days of "carrying" high seeds and super-teams over 0-star teams like Oladipo are over and now we see how shitty a 6'9" Westbrooker really is

Not sure how. He's basically batting .333 when it comes to chips so far in the west and that's partially due to being injury riddled for one of those years.

[HoopsNY]

Unreal. It's like star players are expected to be a top 3 seed all the time without a strong team. How did MJ do his first 3 seasons in the league?

Chicago 1984-85: 38-44 (7th seed)
Chicago 1985-86: 30-52 (8th seed)
Chicago 1986-87: 40-42 (8th seed)

The 1987-88 season is an immense credit to Jordan, but LeBron has similar (if not better years) with Cleveland.

Stop sucking MJ's d!ck.

[3ba11]

Not sure how. He's basically batting .333 when it comes to chips so far in the west and that's partially due to being injury riddled for one of those years.


Lebron is a low seed or lottery in the West without AD carrying the team statistically - that's the historical record.

Otoh, Jordan carried the statistical load for every chip, with literally the biggest gaps ever between 1st and 2nd option in scoring, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48.

[TheCorporation]

LeBron's top 1
Jordan's top 7
Kobe's top 13

Anything else OP?

[AirBonner]

Historical record shows MJ’s toughest finals comp struggled to score 54 points

[StrongLurk]

OP is absolutely miserable and hates life.

[3ba11]

Unreal. It's like star players are expected to be a top 3 seed all the time without a strong team. How did MJ do his first 3 seasons in the league?

Chicago 1984-85: 38-44 (7th seed)
Chicago 1985-86: 30-52 (8th seed)
Chicago 1986-87: 40-42 (8th seed)

The 1987-88 season is an immense credit to Jordan, but LeBron has similar (if not better years) with Cleveland.

Stop sucking MJ's d!ck.


jordan literally had the PERFECT career because nearly everyone loses in their first few years and doesn't win any playoff series, like Durant, Lebron, Giannis or Curry.

After Jordan's first few years (when everyone loses), he never lost as the favorite or with a good team (1 or 2 seed), while literally everyone in history lost 5+ times with 1 or 2 seeds and numerous times as the favorite.

So MJ had the perfect career, while Lebron mostly loses with super-teams and top seeds.

Lebron never carried the scoring load on the Finals level or carried bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams - zero carry-jobs in 2 decades of playing... Lol.. biggest fraud in sports history

[Bronbron23]

Lebron is a low seed or lottery in the West without AD carrying the team statistically - that's the historical record.

Otoh, Jordan carried the statistical load for every chip, with literally the biggest gaps ever between 1st and 2nd option in scoring, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48.

Yeah yeah mj was better dude i get it. Dosn't mean bron sucks. Bron needs ad just like mj needed pip. To say bron can't hack it in the west is just not true. He has a chip in just 3 years playing. That's not bad at all.

[SouBeachTalents]

jordan literally had the PERFECT career because nearly everyone loses in their first few years and doesn't win any playoff series, like Durant, Lebron, Giannis or Curry.

After Jordan's first few years (when everyone loses), he never lost as the favorite or with a good team (1 or 2 seed), while literally everyone in history lost 5+ times with 1 or 2 seeds and numerous times as the favorite.

So MJ had the perfect career, while Lebron mostly loses with super-teams and top seeds.

Lebron never carried the scoring load on the Finals level or carried bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams - zero carry-jobs in 2 decades of playing... Lol.. biggest fraud in sports history
It helps to have the “perfect” career when you routinely have the leagues best 2nd option, a HOF coach, and a team that can win 55 games without you.

[3ba11]

Yeah yeah mj was better dude i get it. Dosn't mean bron sucks. Bron needs ad just like mj needed pip. To say bron can't hack it in the west is just not true. He has a chip in just 3 years playing. That's not bad at all.


How can you equate Pippen and AD? AD was an elite producer and 1st option, while Pippen was "a pippen" (lower producer)

AD led the Lakers in scoring when they won, and he led the entire NBA in playoff scoring

Otoh, Jordan doubled Pippen's scoring average because Pippen was "a pippen", aka lower producer - Jordan never needed a 1b teammate like AD, Wade or Kyrie that match or exceed his scoring - Pippen never got within 10 ppg of Mike in any series.

[3ba11]

It helps to have the “perfect” career when you routinely have the leagues best 2nd option, a HOF coach, and a team that can win 55 games without you.


3-peat champion.... to 2nd Round.... to borderline lottery in 95' without MJ...

^^^ Based on that trajectory, the Bulls would've been the worst team in the league in 96' if MJ never returned... A three-peat champion declines to the worst team in 2 years..

94' had the surprise factor and plausiible deniability of being defending 3-peat champs - after that was gone, the REAL bulls without mj were borderline lottery in 95' and declining each year - they would've been the worst team in the league in 96' if MJ hadn't returned the previous year.

[TheCorporation]

3-peat champion.... to 2nd Round.... to borderline lottery in 95' without MJ...

^^^ Based on that trajectory, the Bulls would've been the worst team in the league in 96' if MJ never returned... A three-peat champion declines to the worst team in 2 years..

94' had the surprise factor and plausiible deniability of being defending 3-peat champs - after that was gone, the REAL bulls without mj were borderline lottery in 95' and declining each year - they would've been the worst team in the league in 96' if MJ hadn't returned the previous year.

MJ Played with Pippen and Grant
Pippen played with...Grant

If Pippen had a clone Pippen you don't think they win in 94 instead of Pete Myers?

[3ba11]

MJ Played with Pippen and Grant
Pippen played with...Grant

If Pippen had a clone Pippen you don't think they win in 94 instead of Pete Myers?


Pippen had Kukoc, who was a pippen/grant-caliber player and 1st option when it mattered.. Pippen also had upgrades to every single roster spot outside of BJ and Horace.. So Pippen literally had a better cast than MJ

And Pippen wasn't much better than Pete Myers - that's what you don't understand - Pippen was a role player and the stats show that - he had NO burden in any series - he never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series.. Everyone in history needed equal-scoring partners for various playoff runs, while Jordan averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every series

[tpols]

It's true the West has a gauntlet but if he was in his prime and was getting other players in their prime? He would make it to the finals 5+ times and likely win them all because he owned everyone in the east.

LeBron got his ass whooped by old Spurs teams when he was playing with Dwayne wade. If he had to fight through spurs, warriors, thunder gauntlets every year just to make the Finals he'd never have won anything.

[Spurs m8]

LeBron got his ass whooped by old Spurs teams when he was playing with Dwayne wade. If he had to fight through spurs, warriors, thunder gauntlets every year just to make the Finals he'd never have won anything.

This

[3ba11]

LeBron got his ass whooped by old Spurs teams when he was playing with Dwayne wade. If he had to fight through spurs, warriors, thunder gauntlets every year just to make the Finals he'd never have won anything.


^^^ And that's why winning the Finals matters because it proves you would've made the Finals in either conference and beat the LEAGUE, not just your conference..

Indeed, Lebron's Finals record lets us know that he would've made 4 Finals out West and lets face it - that Ray Allen miracle doesn't happen again, so it's really 3 Finals tops

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron got his ass whooped by old Spurs teams when he was playing with Dwayne wade. If he had to fight through spurs, warriors, thunder gauntlets every year just to make the Finals he'd never have won anything.
How are you gonna say some shit like this when he was legitimately one of the worst players on the floor in that series :lol

[Nike D'Antoni]

I am thinking the other way around

Lebron 1 ring in 4 years out West, 3 rings 15 years out east

1/4 ratio in West
1/5 ratio in East

[TheCorporation]

Pippen had Kukoc, who was a pippen/grant-caliber player and 1st option when it mattered.. Pippen also had upgrades to every single roster spot outside of BJ and Horace.. So Pippen literally had a better cast than MJ

And Pippen wasn't much better than Pete Myers - that's what you don't understand - Pippen was a role player and the stats show that - he had NO burden in any series - he never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series.. Everyone in history needed equal-scoring partners for various playoff runs, while Jordan averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every series

ClownBall at it again :roll:

[Spurs m8]

I am thinking the other way around

Lebron 1 ring in 4 years out West, 3 rings 15 years out east

1/4 ratio in West
1/5 ratio in East

A very simpleton way to look at it

[tpols]

How are you gonna say some shit like this when he was legitimately one of the worst players on the floor in that series :lol

Wade had a negative +/- in 2013 Finals with Lebron on the court, and we all saw the debacle in 2011. And now were talking 2014. Fact is they couldn't make it fit but people like to rewrite history.

Wade looked great in the playoffs carrying nobodies 2 years later.


https://youtu.be/KFUfv475SC8

He did that on MJs team lmao. Not many guys can lay claim to being top 5 all time at their position.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade had a negative +/- in 2013 Finals with Lebron on the court, and we all saw the debacle in 2011. Fact is they couldn't make it fit but people like to rewrite history.

Wade looked great in the playoffs carrying nobodies 2 years later.


https://youtu.be/KFUfv475SC8

He did that on MJs team lmao.
I've never seen someone hype up a 21 ppg second round playoff run losing to the Trash Bros like you do :lol Wade having a nice run two years later is irrelevant to his ghastly performance in 2014. Blaming LeBron for that performance is like blaming Wade for LeBron's in 2011.

[tpols]

^^^ And that's why winning the Finals matters because it proves you would've made the Finals in either conference and beat the LEAGUE, not just your conference..

Indeed, Lebron's Finals record lets us know that he would've made 4 Finals out West and lets face it - that Ray Allen miracle doesn't happen again, so it's really 3 Finals tops

That's actually incorrect to assume because he'd have to beat multiple of his Finals opponents to make it. He'd have to beat say in 2016... the spurs, thunder, AND the warriors to make it. What are the odds on that when we know he has a ~33% chance at beating each one. .33^3... less than 5% chance just to make the Finals.

[Baller789]

I've never seen someone hype up a 21 ppg second round playoff run losing to the Trash Bros like you do :lol Wade having a nice run two years later is irrelevant to his ghastly performance in 2014. Blaming LeBron for that performance is like blaming Wade for LeBron's in 2011.

Doesn't mtatter much to the topic tho.

Lebron had mostly cakewalks to the NBA Finals every year without much competition out East.

That's a simple Fact no one can honestly dispute.

[tpols]

I've never seen someone hype up a 21 ppg second round playoff run losing to the Trash Bros like you do :lol Wade having a nice run two years later is irrelevant to his ghastly performance in 2014. Blaming LeBron for that performance is like blaming Wade for LeBron's in 2011.

It shows Wade still had "it". Years later. Those Heat teams he carried were total garbage in the 2016 playoffs. Whiteside was nice in the regular season but got hurt in the playoffs. Wade was carrying bums long after you said he was washed up. That's the main point. The reason the 2014 team fell apart was due to chemistry issues, not talent. The spurs knew they lost the previous years ring on a fluke, and opened up a can of whoop ass as vengeance the next year. Everybody that watched saw it.

[SouBeachTalents]

It shows Wade still had "it". Years later. Those Heat teams he carried were total garbage in the 2016 playoffs. Whiteside was nice in the regular season but got hurt in the playoffs. Wade was carrying bums long after you said he was washed up. That's the main point. The reason the 2014 team fell apart was due to chemistry issues, not talent. The spurs knew they lost the previous years ring on a fluke, and opened up a can of whoop ass as vengeance the next year. Everybody that watched saw it.
He "carried" the Heat past the 6th seeded Hornets averaging 19/5/5 on 17 shots and 51%TS. Like I said, you're REALLY overstating his performance in those playoffs :lol He was inconsistent and had as many off games as he did good performances, including a dreadful Game 7 against Toronto.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron got his ass whooped by old Spurs teams when he was playing with Dwayne wade. If he had to fight through spurs, warriors, thunder gauntlets every year just to make the Finals he'd never have won anything.

You do realize that LeBron beat KD in 2012, the Spurs in 2013, and the Warriors in 2016, right?

[tpols]

You do realize that LeBron beat KD in 2012, the Spurs in 2013, and the Warriors in 2016, right?

He won by a miracle in 2013 (ray) and got beat by the all time margin of defeat the next year. Spurs in his playoff career H2H own a massive point differential. Warriors do as well. Post the records and score differentials. And that's not even counting one off teams like the Mavericks.Imagine if he had to face these opponents that gave him trouble back to back to back?

Its undeniable that given a gauntlet path LeBron would win less. Don't know why people still argue it.

[Spurs m8]

He won by a miracle in 2013 (ray) and got beat by the all time margin of defeat the next year. Spurs in his playoff career H2H own a massive point differential. Warriors do as well. Post the records and score differentials. And that's not even counting one off teams like the Mavericks.Imagine if he had to face these opponents that gave him trouble back to back to back?

Its undeniable that given a gauntlet path LeBron would win less. Don't know why people still argue it.

We all know it

[ShawkFactory]

Ok so again..the East is better than the West right now.

[Baller789]

Ok so again..the East is better than the West right now.

Le calculated.

[3ba11]

I've never seen someone hype up a 21 ppg second round playoff run





Isn't that what Pippen did in 1994?

Again, the worst versions of Wade (13-16') = prime Pippen, while anything before that vastly exceeds prime Pippen..

In 2012, Wade had a 26 PER and was top 5 in everything (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP) - Pippen never came anywhere near that.

You guys were disappointed in 13-14' Wade because he'd fallen to prime Pippen level (15-22 ppg depending on the series)... So now you know why I shit on overrated Pippen.

[SATAN]

The poster above me wants LeBron James's dick in his mouth ASAP.

[Phoenix]

ClownBall at it again :roll:

That's the part you're focusing on? How about this one immediately afterwards:

"And Pippen wasn't much better than Pete Myers"

Jesus H. Christ.

[Phoenix]

3-peat champion.... to 2nd Round.... to borderline lottery in 95' without MJ...

^^^ Based on that trajectory, the Bulls would've been the worst team in the league in 96' if MJ never returned... A three-peat champion declines to the worst team in 2 years..

94' had the surprise factor and plausiible deniability of being defending 3-peat champs - after that was gone, the REAL bulls without mj were borderline lottery in 95' and declining each year - they would've been the worst team in the league in 96' if MJ hadn't returned the previous year.

They would have remained a 50 plus win team had Grant stayed with them, so this is disingenuous acting like the 94 and 95 rosters were identical. Pippen/Grant/Kukoc/ BJ in 95? Easily a 50 win team.

The whole 'surprise factor' argument is bullshit. You think Chicago 'fooled' teams for 82 games? The 'surprise' would have worn off after a month.

[HoopsNY]

He won by a miracle in 2013 (ray) and got beat by the all time margin of defeat the next year. Spurs in his playoff career H2H own a massive point differential. Warriors do as well. Post the records and score differentials. And that's not even counting one off teams like the Mavericks.Imagine if he had to face these opponents that gave him trouble back to back to back?

Its undeniable that given a gauntlet path LeBron would win less. Don't know why people still argue it.

It doesn't matter. Your initial comment mentioned having to beat those teams, which he did. Scoring differentials don't matter or even total W/L record against that opponent. After all, MJ is 1-3 vs. Detroit in the playoffs.

I'm well aware that LeBron's road to the finals was much easier than someone like Kobe or MJ, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have won in different circumstances.

[Baller789]

It doesn't matter. Your initial comment mentioned having to beat those teams, which he did. Scoring differentials don't matter or even total W/L record against that opponent. After all, MJ is 1-3 vs. Detroit in the playoffs.

I'm well aware that LeBron's road to the finals was much easier than someone like Kobe or MJ, but that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have won in different circumstances.

But you do have to concede that playing in the LEASTERN Conference is a definite advantage.

Wether he would have won with different circumstances, sure why not. But I highly doubt he gets to play in 10 NBA Finals.