Kyrie, Wade, AD, Bosh outplayed MVP or FMVP's; Pippen barely competed w/ 2nd options

[3ba11]

:yaohappy:

"b-b-but Pippen outscored opposing 2nd options by 1.1 ppg with 20% less efficiency"

Pippen was only a 2nd option alongside MJ, and his 2nd option performance barely compared to lower-tier sidekicks like Klay, Pau, Rip Hamilton or Jason Terry, and nowhere near the top tier that win most of the titles like Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Worthy, Mchale, Wade, AD, etc.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

[ELITEpower23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

OP was today years old when he learned that basketball is a 2-way game and defense matters too :oldlol:

/thread

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE


No one thinks Pippen outplayed Magic in that series.. Pippen was barely competing with a hobbled Worthy, while Kyrie, Wade, AD and Bosh outplayed MVP's or FMVP's.

And you're cherry-picking 1 Finals when Pippen was horrific in nearly every Finals, including 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals - he's the only sidekick that won more than 2 Finals without getting FMVP or 25 ppg.. He's also the only guy that never reached Robert Horry's 95' Finals gamescore of 19.0, so he's 0/6 in FMVP and 0/6 in reaching peak Horry level (both records).

Btw, I stopped watching the video as soon as I saw the original Jordan hater Sam Smith.. Jordan's Skip Bayless.

MJ was the primary defender on Magic in that series - Pippen didn't guard Magic at all in Games 1, 4, or 5 (except the last 4 minutes of Game 4), and he didn't guard Magic in the critical Game 3 OT or 4th quarter..

Pippen's defense in Game 2 didn't make the Bulls' offense overperform and blow the doors off the Lakers - Jordan's goat offense did that (15-18 vs max defensive attention).. So Pippen's defense wasn't needed in the blowout win, while Jordan's clutch defense shut Magic down in the critical Game 3 OT that swung the series.

Pippen was praised his spot-duty in that series only because it was part of the media's homework to make their job easier by having these "pet issues" that they will go to for each historical topic - it doesn't make them historically accurate.. It's the just the media giving us a product.

[1987_Lakers]

Magic himself said Pippen changed the series.

/thread.

Pippen the GOAT defensive SF.

[3ba11]

Magic himself said Pippen changed the series.

/thread.

Pippen the GOAT defensive SF.


Bullshit

And the point is that no one thinks Pippen outplayed Magic in that series.. Pippen was barely competing with a hobbled Worthy, while Kyrie, Wade, AD and Bosh outplayed MVP's or FMVP's.

Furthermore, Pippen made MJ face maximum defensive attention/burden by averaging 10-30 more than him in every series (carried), while AD, Wade, and Kyrie all matched or exceeded Lebron for entire playoff runs and in many series

[1987_Lakers]

Bullshit

And the point is that no one thinks Pippen outplayed Magic in that series.. Pippen was barely competing with a hobbled Worthy, while Kyrie, Wade, AD and Bosh outplayed MVP's or FMVP's.

BS? Go to 1:32 mark of the vid I posted.

[3ba11]

BS? Go to 1:32 mark of the vid I posted.


Again, he didn't say shit - he didn't say Pippen changed shit, let alone the series

You guys are just liars and delusional crazies

Of course it's smart to give the smaller MJ a break from guarding Magic, but it was just spot-duty and completely overblown.. Magic's tone says it all.. you guys are ridiculous

[TheCorporation]

Magic himself said Pippen changed the series.

/thread.

Pippen the GOAT defensive SF.

Shut. It. DOWN.

[3ba11]

Shut. It. DOWN.


He never said "pippen changed the series"

that's bullshit and you guys are dumb liars

Of course it's smart to give MJ a break from guarding Magic, but it was just spot-duty for less than 30% of total possessions and completely overblown - MJ guarded Magic for twice the time that Pippen did.. Magic's tone says it all.. you guys are ridiculous

It's a testament to Pippen's inexperience and tendency to choke that he wasn't guarding Magic for the entire series like SF's normally do.. MJ was doing his job for him the entire series and it's THE goat 2-way performance and simply misreported by dumb journalists.

[1987_Lakers]

He never said "pippen changed the series"

that's bullshit and you guys are dumb liars

Of course it's smart to give the smaller MJ a break from guarding Magic, but it was just spot-duty for less than 30% of total possessions and completely overblown.. Magic's tone says it all.. you guys are ridiculous

It's a testament to Pippen's inexperience and tendency to choke that he wasn't guarding Magic for the entire series like SF's normally do.

Looks like 3ball is having a meltdown.

[3ba11]

Looks like 3ball is having a meltdown.


Magic never said Pippen changed the series... :confusedshrug:.. it's just a dumb lie and doesn't address the thread title.

Pippen barely outplayed Worthy, and was always competing to outplay the opposing 2nd option

while Lebron's sidekicks dominate the league including MVPs and FMVP's

Lebron has elite 1st options to play 2nd and 3rd option, while Pippen wasn't even a 2nd option on the Rockets

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


3ball: "Lebron's sidekicks played at the highest level by outplaying MVP's, while Pippen was barely competing with 2nd options"

Lebron stan: "Pippen did spot-duty once in a situation where the SG was doing his job for him by defending Magic for most of the series"

[1987_Lakers]

Thread cliffs

Magic confirmed Pippen changed the series and shut him down.

[3ba11]

Thread cliffs

Magic confirmed Pippen changed the series and shut him down.


Thread Cliffs

Magic was professional and gave the least credit possible to Pippen without disrespecting him, but his tone told the story.

He knows who carried the load on both ends.. Just compare the difference in tone and enthusiasm when talking about Pippen and the GOAT.. no comparison.

[AussieSteve]

You live in an alternate reality 3ball.

In the reality that everyone else lives, Pippen was the best #2 in the world and better than many #1s.

Tell us some other things about your reality, and we can help you out by describing the extent to which they are the same or different from the reality.

[SpaceJam]

Bron elevating talent :bowdown:

[ELITEpower23]

Bron elevating talent :bowdown:

His specialty :bowdown:

Turned Wade into Prime Kobe
Turned Kyrie into Prime Curry
Turned A.D. into Shaq/Kareem

Goat things

[Phoenix]

It's 2022 3nutball.

[Johnny32]

you start a different version of the same topic every day.

LeAusticAF.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's not just that 3ball talks about the same 2-3 topics at a ridiculously obsessive level, he lies just as much discussing them and straight up disregards actual information. I can't even tell you how many times it's been pointed out to him that Pippen routinely outplayed the opposing teams 2nd option, probably literally dozens of times. Yet he puts right there in the thread title "Pippen barely competed with 2nd options". There's no point in trying to argue with someone like that, even if you point out the actual information, they'll disregard the facts and continue to live in their own reality. It's honestly no different than arguing with a QAnon supporter, and I have no doubt 3ball is just as crazy as any of them.

[3ba11]

It's not just that 3ball talks about the same 2-3 topics at a ridiculously obsessive level, he lies just as much discussing them and straight up disregards actual information. I can't even tell you how many times it's been pointed out to him that Pippen routinely outplayed the opposing teams 2nd option, probably literally dozens of times. Yet he puts right there in the thread title "Pippen barely competed with 2nd options". There's no point in trying to argue with someone like that, even if you point out the actual information, they'll disregard the facts and continue to live in their own reality. It's honestly no different than arguing with a QAnon supporter, and I have no doubt 3ball is just as crazy as any of them.


You're arguing that Pippen outplayed 2nd options, while Lebron's sidekicks outplayed the best 1st options in league history (MVP's & FMVP's)

So there's no comparison - that's what I'm pointing out - Lebron's sidekicks are objectively superior by routinely outplaying 1st options and league MVP's, while Pippen was competing with 2nd options and often getting outplayed.

Pippen never outscored anyone by much and always had worst-ever efficiency, so he was outplayed by 2nd options in arguably half the series as a Bull.. There's tons of clear-cut examples in big series where Pippen's horrific play nearly caused loss or caused loss, like the 90' ECF, 92' ECSF (went 7 games due to Pippen), 93' 1st Round, 94' ECSF, 95' 1st Round, 95' ECSF, 96' ECF, 96' Finals, 97' 1st Round, 98' ECF (went 7 games due to Pippen).

[3ba11]

You're arguing that Pippen outplayed 2nd options, while Lebron's sidekicks outplayed the best 1st options in league history (MVP's & FMVP's)

So there's no comparison - that's what I'm pointing out - Lebron's sidekicks are objectively superior by routinely outplaying 1st options and league MVP's, while Pippen was competing with 2nd options and often getting outplayed.

Pippen never outscored anyone by much and always had worst-ever efficiency, so he was outplayed by 2nd options in arguably half the series as a Bull.. There's tons of clear-cut examples in big series where Pippen's horrific play nearly caused loss or caused loss, like the 90' ECF, 92' ECSF (went 7 games due to Pippen), 93' 1st Round, 94' ECSF, 95' 1st Round, 95' ECSF, 96' ECF, 96' Finals, 97' 1st Round, 98' ECF (went 7 games due to Pippen).


For the record, SouBeach ran from this post

[TheCorporation]

For the record, SouBeach ran from this post

AutisticBall

[3ba11]

AutisticBall


I won't let you enjoy your WWE fake entertainment league

I'll always let you know the reality and proper way to perceive it and see through the media fake news

The facts are always there - always - in this case, Pippen competed with opposing 2nd options, while Lebron's sidekicks demolished 1st options and MVP's.. That makes Pippen objectively inferior

[TheCorporation]

His specialty :bowdown:

Turned Wade into Prime Kobe
Turned Kyrie into Prime Curry
Turned A.D. into Shaq/Kareem

Goat things

AutisticBall?

[3ba11]

AutisticBall?


All those guys were superstars before Lebron joined them, and Wade taught Lebron how to win - it takes a winner to teach a winner... Each 1 teach 1.. and lebron got TAUGHT

[TheCorporation]

All those guys were superstars before Lebron joined them, and Wade taught Lebron how to win - it takes a winner to teach a winner... Each 1 teach 1.. and lebron got TAUGHT

First of all Jordan got taught by Pippen if anything...Jordan went from a 1-9 career loser to a champion because Pippen showed him how to win.

Secondly,

https://i.postimg.cc/7LsHHjJ1/Le-Unbreakable-Records-7631.png

[3ba11]

First of all Jordan got taught by Pippen if anything...Jordan went from a 1-9 career loser to a champion because Pippen showed him how to win.

Secondly,

https://i.postimg.cc/7LsHHjJ1/Le-Unbreakable-Records-7631.png


Pippen was a 7 ppg bench-warmer in 1988, while MJ averaged 45 for the win.. So MJ was self-taught and Pippen was lucky to be along for the ride.

Anyone with potential would've turned into a "Pippen" because a "Pippen" is a secondary lower producer - that's what a pippen is - it isn't some juggernaut that destroys league MVP's, which would obviously be a lot harder to find..

premium producers and elite 1st option studs are harder to find than "Pippen's".

[Johnny32]

imagine never winning a playoff series without one specific teammate lol. it's so embarrassing no matter how hard they desperately try to deflect.

[3ba11]

imagine never winning a playoff series without one specific teammate lol. it's so embarrassing no matter how hard they desperately try to deflect.


Most great players don't win any playoff series for their first few years, so it's a timing thing - no one thinks he needed a 7 ppg bench-warmer to win

You're just weaponizing the coincidence that the only years MJ didn't have pippen is when EVERYONE loses.. It's the most false argument ever

Everyone in history that won more than 2 Finals needed a sidekick to get FMVP or 25 ppg... Yet MJ went 6 Finals without that kind of help that everyone else enjoyed

[TheCorporation]

imagine never winning a playoff series without one specific teammate lol. it's so embarrassing no matter how hard they desperately try to deflect.

What that can't be? Didn't he have five years without Pippen? How many Finals did he make during those 5 Pippenless years? How many playoff series wins?

[TheCorporation]

Pippen was a 7 ppg bench-warmer in 1988, while MJ averaged 45 for the win.. So MJ was self-taught and Pippen was lucky to be along for the ride.

Anyone with potential would've turned into a "Pippen" because a "Pippen" is a secondary lower producer - that's what a pippen is - it isn't some juggernaut that destroys league MVP's, which would obviously be a lot harder to find..

premium producers and elite 1st option studs are harder to find than "Pippen's".

Funny how when MJ was 1-9 he needed teammates and it wasn't his fault he was losing but suddenly when MJ started winning with Pippen ONLY he didn't need teammates :lol Pick a storyline.

[3ba11]

Funny how when MJ was 1-9 he needed teammates and it wasn't his fault he was losing but suddenly when MJ started winning with Pippen ONLY he didn't need teammates :lol Pick a storyline.


Everyone needed a "jordan" teammate to win and no one could win with a lower-producer, aka "pippen" except Dirk, Kawhi, Kobe, Hakeem and MJ (6 times).

[Johnny32]

What that can't be? Didn't he have five years without Pippen? How many Finals did he make during those 5 Pippenless years? How many playoff series wins?

5 long years of heartbreak and failure.

[3ba11]

5 long years of heartbreak and failure.


no one could win with a lower-producer, aka "pippen" except Dirk, Kawhi, Kobe, Hakeem and MJ (6 times).

[TheCorporation]

5 long years of heartbreak and failure.

Are you telling me during Jordan's five years without Scottie Pippen he didn't win ONE playoff series???

[Johnny32]

Are you telling me during Jordan's five years without Scottie Pippen he didn't win ONE playoff series???

he barely won a game.

[3ba11]

he barely won a game.


Lebron barely won 40 games and was lottery with the East all-star center - he needed to add a player that was already achieving peak Pippen stats and the future COY just to make the playoffs in 06'

So Lebron needed peak Pippen, the East all-star center and the future COY to make Playoffs and 2nd Round, while MJ did it with literally nothing.

Jordan was carrying rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron had decorated teammates and high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

[Johnny32]

Lebron barely won 40 games and was lottery with the East all-star center - he needed to add a player that was already achieving peak Pippen stats and the future COY just to make the playoffs in 06'

So Lebron needed peak Pippen, the East all-star center and the future COY to make Playoffs and 2nd Round, while MJ did it with literally nothing.

Jordan was carrying rookie low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron had decorated teammates and high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

40 > 1

[TheCorporation]

he barely won a game.

WAIT WHAT.

Jordan had five years without Pippen and he didn't win a Finals. Didn't win a Conference Finals. Didn't win a 1st round series? He only won a single....game?

[3ba11]

40 > 1


All-star Zydrunas > rookie Pippen

22/6/5 first team all-defender Hughes > rookie Pippen

So MJ needed a lot less to do the same thing (make 2nd Round)..

And do more (MJ carried low seed to ECF in 89' by upsetting the #1 and #7 SRS teams)

Ultimately, Lebron needed the East all-star center and a player achieving peak Pippen performance to make the Playoffs and 2nd Round... And the future COY

[Johnny32]

WAIT WHAT.

Jordan had five years without Pippen and he didn't win a Finals. Didn't win a Conference Finals. Didn't win a 1st round series? He only won a single....game?

it should be noted in that single gm jordan won...he was outscored by terry cummings on the other team. he also got mvp level production from his teammate woolridge to the tune of 28 points on 56% shooting.

[AirBonner]

There is no way op is married or has kids. Unless to his sister

[3ba11]

it should be noted in that single gm jordan won...he was outscored by terry cummings on the other team. he also got mvp level production from his teammate woolridge to the tune of 28 points on 56% shooting.


Lebron was lottery with the East all-star center, while Jordan carried bums to the playoffs, 2nd Round and ECF

[Johnny32]

it should be noted in that single gm jordan won...he was outscored by terry cummings on the other team. he also got mvp level production from his teammate woolridge to the tune of 28 points on 56% shooting.

one last thing we should touch on from this game. cummings outscored mj despite taking 6 less shots and 8 less fta.

[3ba11]

it should be noted in that single gm jordan won...he was outscored by terry cummings on the other team. he also got mvp level production from his teammate woolridge to the tune of 28 points on 56% shooting.


It's interesting that you bring up Woolridge, who was nowhere near a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star), while Zydrunas was a 2x all-star.

Meanwhile, Hughes was 22/6/5 and 1st team defense, so Lebron was gifted a player that was achieving peak Pippen performance on both sides of the ball AND had the East all-star center.. No wonder they were a high seed in 06' (Lebron's first playoff)

[Hey Yo]

Deflecting as usual ^^^^^

[3ba11]

Deflecting as usual ^^^^^


Who needed more help to make the playoffs, 2nd Round and ECF?

Jordan needed nothing, while Lebron needed an all-star center and a 22/6/5 all-defender, plus the future COY and top defenses.

Ultimately, Jordan was good enough to drag lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron failed to carry lottery casts to low seeds and only made the playoffs with high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.

[3ba11]

Who needed more help to make the playoffs, 2nd Round and ECF?

Jordan needed nothing, while Lebron needed an all-star center and a 22/6/5 all-defender, plus the future COY and top defenses.

Ultimately, Jordan was good enough to drag lottery casts (teams that were lottery the prior year) to low seeds in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron failed to carry lottery casts to low seeds and only made the playoffs with high seeds in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.





https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-26-2018/7T5HZe.gif

[TheCorporation]

one last thing we should touch on from this game. cummings outscored mj despite taking 6 less shots and 8 less fta.

W
T
F

So then it's true. No Pip...

[3ba11]

one last thing we should touch on from this game. cummings outscored mj despite taking 6 less shots and 8 less fta.


Jamison destroyed Lebron in their 07' Playoff matchup (32/10), and then Lebron teamed up with him & Shaq to make the league favorite in 2010.

Despite these desperate attempts to stack his team, Lebron still turned that preseason favorite into underdog or loser, just like he did the following 6 years

[Johnny32]

W
T
F

So then it's true. No Pip...

no ship.

[3ba11]

no ship.


In 2009, the Cavs had the #3 defense compared to #19 for the 1990 Bulls, while Mo was superior offensively to Pippen across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

This matters because it means Lebron had a better team than Jordan on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.

[AirBonner]

In 2009, the Cavs had the #3 defense compared to #19 for the 1990 Bulls, while Mo was superior offensively to Pippen across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

This matters because it means Lebron had a better team than Jordan on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.
No Pippen no chip n’

[3ba11]

No Pippen no chip n’


In the history of 3-pointer basketball, what's the most number of Finals that someone has won without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg?

It's 2.

Aside from Jordan, who 6 with a sidekick that was 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.. So Jordan carried teams 3 times as long (6 Finals without elite sidekick vs 2 or less for everyone else)

[Johnny32]

what's the most finals jordan won while leading his team in points, rebounds, and assists in the finals?

it's 0.

lebron's done it 4 times.

[3ba11]

what's the most finals jordan won while leading his team in points, rebounds, and assists in the finals?

it's 0.

lebron's done it 4 times.


Lebron always needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention/burden on the Finals level or for various playoff runs - any period without facing maximum defensive attention are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced maximum defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

Ultimately, Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention on the Finals level (never carried scoring load) and never carried bed-wetting teammates over a top 5 SRS team.. So he can't carry teams like Mike

[TheCorporation]

what's the most finals jordan won while leading his team in points, rebounds, and assists in the finals?

it's 0.

lebron's done it 4 times.

:lol Shut it down.

[Full Court]

:lol Shut it down.

Says the guy who just got busted fabricating stats in another thread. What a TOOL. Lol.

[TheCorporation]

No Pippen no chip n’

No Pippen, No ship'n