Pippen and Kukoc out scored Stockton and Hornacek in the 1998 NBA Finals

[Lebron23]

Both Pippen and Kukoc both averaged 15.7 ppg while Hornacek and Stockton averaged 10.7 ppg, and 9.7 ppg respectively.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/resizer/vk-i6OfLk_RYtmIKR1uW3BOTbNE=/1200x0/top/www.trbimg.com/img-5ca9da30/turbine/ct-spt-bulls-scottie-pippen-toni-kukoc-20190406

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/eH0DYPaSix5kufRiHq6YuCk6hKQ=/0x0:1036x1500/920x613/filters:focal(467x206:631x370):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/66781661/6_5_SALL_Bulls_late_2_S.0.jpg

[Dengness9]

Such a sick thread

[iamgine]

1998 Jazz didn't even have a starting center.

[3ba11]

Everyone always respected Kukoc's game

Given that Pippen is significantly overrated, the right way to think about it is that Pippen was a Kukoc-level player and MJ had 2 Kukoc's for the 2nd three-peat (1 for the first)

[ShawkFactory]

Everyone always respected Kukoc's game

Given that Pippen is significantly overrated, the right way to think about it is that Pippen was a Kukoc-level player and MJ had 2 Kukoc's for the 2nd three-peat (1 for the first)

While that sounds impressive, the OP of the thread clearly indicates that that both men significantly outplayed the 2nd and 3rd guys on the Jazz.

So 10.7 and 9.7ppg would mean that the Karl Malone had what...two Antonio McDyesses?

[3ba11]

While that sounds impressive, the OP of the thread clearly indicates that that both men significantly outplayed the 2nd and 3rd guys on the Jazz.

So 10.7 and 9.7ppg would mean that the Karl Malone had what...two Antonio McDyesses?


McDyess was another superior talent to Pippen that MJ would've won 6 with.. I forgot about him..

Ultimately, those Jazz beat the most talent to ever make a Finals (Duncan/Popovich... Shaq/Kobe 4 all-star Lakers... Hakeem), but couldn't beat the goat's 1-man show (18 more than sidekicks)

Very few guys defeated maximum defensive attention in the Finals (10+ more than teammates), and MJ did it 6 times, including several Finals with 15 and 20 more than teammates.

Btw, how many Finals for Pippen matched peak Horry's gamescore in the 95' Finals? Only Pippen never reached Horry-caliber in 6 tries.

[ShawkFactory]

The second and 3rd options for the Bulls averaged 31.4ppg.

For the Jazz it was 21.4. That's 10 ppg as you can see..the standard carry job differential you like to bring up. Just for what it's worth.

So Jordan can take 2 Kukoc's and beat Malone with 2 Derek Fisher's...not really all that impressive.

[3ba11]

The second and 3rd options for the Bulls averaged 31.4ppg.

For the Jazz it was 21.4. That's 10 ppg as you can see..the standard carry job differential you like to bring up. Just for what it's worth.

So Jordan can take 2 Kukoc's and beat Malone with 2 Derek Fisher's...not really all that impressive.


By that logic, Jordan has always carried the biggest load because his cast was outscored by the opponent's in every series of his career, except his very first series against veteran and MVP candidate Cummings.

Jordan won with the lowest-scoring casts ever - I think 98' was the lowest, and obviously outscored by the Jazz cast

[000]

except his very first series against veteran and MVP candidate Cummings.


Actually

Bucks minus Cummings averaged 81

Bulls minus MJ averaged 76

[ShawkFactory]

By that logic, Jordan has always carried the biggest load because his cast was outscored by the opponent's in every series of his career, except his very first series against veteran and MVP candidate Cummings.

Jordan won with the lowest-scoring casts ever - I think 98' was the lowest, and obviously outscored by the Jazz cast

No, not by that logic. I'm using your very famous "2nd option scoring production = the amount of help a person had in a series". But I actually went further and added a 3rd option too.

Overall cast doesn't make sense because Jordan taking so many shots regardless of pace is going to take away from what 15-20ppg scorers like Ron Harper are going to be able to do. It's insignificant.

At least it's shown to be to you given most of the things you've ever said.

[3ba11]

No, not by that logic. I'm using your very famous "2nd option scoring production = the amount of help a person had in a series". But I actually went further and added a 3rd option too.

Overall cast doesn't make sense because Jordan taking so many shots regardless of pace is going to take away from what 15-20ppg scorers like Ron Harper are going to be able to do. It's insignificant.

At least it's shown to be to you given most of the things you've ever said.


Nobody dominated except Jordan.

Splitting hairs over role-player-level production isn't what I have ever done.. I've only evaluated star production because that's the level of production that influences games, not replaceable role player stats.

Jordan's cast was out-produced in the 98' Finals and every series of his career.

So it's clear that the Jazz roster from the 4 thru 12 spots completely demolished the Bulls, since Pippen/Kukoc averaged the most among all role players and Jordan doubled everyone's scoring.

Finally, Stockton outplayed Pippen in that series by averaging 9/9 on 50% and outscoring Pippen in the clutch, while also not abandoning the team in the closeout games like Pippen did (6 & 8 pts in closeout Games 5 and 6)

[SouBeachTalents]

Nobody dominated except Jordan.

Splitting hairs over role-player-level production isn't what I have ever done.. I've only evaluated star production because that's the level of production that influences games, not replaceable role player stats.

Jordan's cast was out-produced in the 98' Finals and every series of his career.

So it's clear that the Jazz roster from the 4 thru 12 spots completely demolished the Bulls, since Pippen/Kukoc averaged the most among all role players and Jordan doubled everyone's scoring.

Finally, Stockton outplayed Pippen in that series by averaging 9/9 on 50% and outscoring Pippen in the clutch, while also not abandoning the team in the closeout games like Pippen did (6 & 8 pts in closeout Games 5 and 6)
Stockton scored 6 & 10 pts in Games 5 & 6

[zeerghit]

Nobody dominated except Jordan.

Splitting hairs over role-player-level production isn't what I have ever done.. I've only evaluated star production because that's the level of production that influences games, not replaceable role player stats.

Jordan's cast was out-produced in the 98' Finals and every series of his career.

So it's clear that the Jazz roster from the 4 thru 12 spots completely demolished the Bulls, since Pippen/Kukoc averaged the most among all role players and Jordan doubled everyone's scoring.

Finally, Stockton outplayed Pippen in that series by averaging 9/9 on 50% and outscoring Pippen in the clutch, while also not abandoning the team in the closeout games like Pippen did (6 & 8 pts in closeout Games 5 and 6)

Scottie Pippen Played With a Herniated Disc in Game 6 of the ’98 Finals

[Lebron23]

Kukoc was a pretty good 3rd scoring option. I think he was a poor man's version of Luka Doncic according to him.

[Hey Yo]

Nobody dominated except Jordan

Pippen was the clear frontrunner for Finals MVP until he re-inured himself in game 5. Many articles written about that during the series.

[97 bulls]

Scottie Pippen Played With a Herniated Disc in Game 6 of the ’98 Finals

Actually, Pippen's back began to act up after game 3 after taking so many charges. It finally gave out in game 6.

[tpols]

While that sounds impressive, the OP of the thread clearly indicates that that both men significantly outplayed the 2nd and 3rd guys on the Jazz.

So 10.7 and 9.7ppg would mean that the Karl Malone had what...two Antonio McDyesses?

Why would you use solely scoring as a measurement for john Stockton? He led every player in assists on both teams by a huge margin in the series. Everybody knows he was a passer and not a scorer...

Furthermore, why are you discounting the teams the jazz beat just to MAKE the Finals? If they were that ass why did they demolish so many prime super stars just to meet the Bulls in the final round?

The jazz literally swept prime shaq.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why would you use solely scoring as a measurement for john Stockton? He led every player in assists on both teams by a huge margin in the series. Everybody knows he was a passer and not a scorer...

Furthermore, why are you discounting the teams the jazz beat just to MAKE the Finals? If they were that ass why did they demolish so many prime super stars just to meet the Bulls in the final round?

The jazz literally swept prime shaq.
What prime superstars did they beat? Duncan was a rookie, Kobe was a bench player, everyone on the Rockets was way past their prime. Looks like that leaves just Shaq.

[tpols]

What prime superstars did they beat? Duncan was a rookie, Kobe was a bench player, everyone on the Rockets was way past their prime. Looks like that leaves just Shaq.

Are you serious? David Robinson averaged 19/13 with GOAT defense. Tim Duncan 21/8. Peak prime Shaq in the WCFs with a slew of guards who made the All Star team beat in a SWEEP. The Jazz were a veteran super composed championship level team. Youre clowning if you want to imply otherwise.

[97 bulls]

Why would you use solely scoring as a measurement for john Stockton? He led every player in assists on both teams by a huge margin in the series. Everybody knows he was a passer and not a scorer...



These types of arguments are used by 3ball. Why won't you hold him to the same standard?

[Johnny32]

drob played 9 playoff games in 98...here's some of his shooting percentages as a 7'1 center.

7-18 (38.9%)
3-12 (25.0%)
5-17 (29.4%)
6-14 (42.9%)
5-13 (38.5%)
5-16 (31.3%)

lul @ 90s basketball.

[ShawkFactory]

Why would you use solely scoring as a measurement for john Stockton? He led every player in assists on both teams by a huge margin in the series. Everybody knows he was a passer and not a scorer...

Furthermore, why are you discounting the teams the jazz beat just to MAKE the Finals? If they were that ass why did they demolish so many prime super stars just to meet the Bulls in the final round?

The jazz literally swept prime shaq.

Come on...I know you aren’t this oblivious.

[Johnny32]

speaking of assists...the 98 season was the first time in 10 years stockton averaged single digit apg. and he continued to do so until he retired.

[tpols]

These types of arguments are used by 3ball. Why won't you hold him to the same standard?

3ball takes it overboard obviously but he only does so because Pippen is ranked by the media as top 25 player all time which is a joke. Pippen is ranked up there with guys like Charles Barkley and David Robinson which is a joke. Pippen is ranked far above guys like pat ewing who beat him at his peak easily battling on similar footing. ('94) And there's a ton of other examples.

All 3ball is doing is combating an illogical mainstream perspective. Does he take it too far sometimes? Sure. But the general argument about Pippen being massively overrated is true.

[Johnny32]

lol @ the knicks "easily" beating duh bulls in 94. tard alert.

[tpols]

lol @ the knicks "easily" beating duh bulls in 94. tard alert.

They were 1 miracle shot away from kukoc from being up 3-0.

lol... Ewing spanked Pippen.

He almost beat them a couple years prior with Jordan. That was the series the X-man punked and outplayed Pippen himself.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HarshEllipticalDonkey-max-1mb.gif

And Jordan had to save him...

[Bawkish]

lol @ the knicks "easily" beating duh bulls in 94. tard alert.

They were down 0-2 and would've gone 0-3 if Phil actually listened to Pip to take the last shot

[ShawkFactory]

3ball takes it overboard obviously but he only does so because Pippen is ranked by the media as top 25 player all time which is a joke. Pippen is ranked up there with guys like Charles Barkley and David Robinson which is a joke. Pippen is ranked far above guys like pat ewing who beat him at his peak easily battling on similar footing. ('94) And there's a ton of other examples.

All 3ball is doing is combating an illogical mainstream perspective. Does he take it too far sometimes? Sure. But the general argument about Pippen being massively overrated is true.

Sometimes? All of the time. Every day. For YEARS.

Understand. I don’t even disagree with the sentiment for the most part. Just be a human being.

[Johnny32]

They were down 0-2 and would've gone 0-3 if Phil actually listened to Pip to take the last shot

hurrr, it went 7 and it was a 4 point gm to start the 4th qtr, durrr.

lol @ "they were down 0-2" like it's a best of 3. idiots.

[TheGoatest]

Mikal Bridges and Cameron Johnson averaged more points combined in the 2021 finals than Hornacek and Stockton averaged in the 1998 finals. :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

lol @ the knicks "easily" beating duh bulls in 94. tard alert.

Such a dumb narrative. Whoever says this hasn’t watched a second of the series.

[TheGoatest]

lol @ the knicks "easily" beating duh bulls in 94. tard alert.

:oldlol:

https://thumbor.granitemedia.com/scottie-pippen-and-hubert-davis/WsFjAkibgG_0Oop09YBnQ3mcHZE=/800x0/filters:quality(80)/granite-web-prod/7d/58/7d58a02616ae4afbb982595fefe30021.jpg

One of the most crap calls in history, which the Bulls get called in their favor (no call) 100% if they had a "M. Jordan" on the roster.

[Axe]

Such a dumb narrative. Whoever says this hasn’t watched a second of the series.
Oof

[Axe]

:oldlol:

https://thumbor.granitemedia.com/scottie-pippen-and-hubert-davis/WsFjAkibgG_0Oop09YBnQ3mcHZE=/800x0/filters:quality(80)/granite-web-prod/7d/58/7d58a02616ae4afbb982595fefe30021.jpg

One of the most crap calls in history, which the Bulls get called in their favor (no call) 100% if they had a "M. Jordan" on the roster.
For someone who thinks the 90s are crap, you comment way too much about a playoff game from the said era.

[Bawkish]

hurrr, it went 7 and it was a 4 point gm to start the 4th qtr, durrr.

lol @ "they were down 0-2" like it's a best of 3. idiots.

look "idiot" it went 7 because they gained momentum and composure to be competitive thru out the series

had they down 0-3 it would be a different outcome

[tpols]

look "idiot" it went 7 because they gained momentum and composure to be competitive thru out the series

had they down 0-3 it would be a different outcome

Arguing that a series was competitive just because it went 7 is like talking about the al horford Joe Johnson hawks taking the peak big 3 Celtics to 7. Or like the roy hibbert pacers taking the peak LeBron wade heat to 7.

The fact of the matter is Ewing and the Knicks WHOOPED the Bulls ass with peak Scottie as the leader. Its like a football game where you know your team is worse but the score is within 7 points in the middle of the 3rd quarter. You have hope... but you're still gonna lose.

[Johnny32]

look "idiot" it went 7 because they gained momentum and composure to be competitive thru out the series

had they down 0-3 it would be a different outcome

hurrr, if the refs don't make the worst call in playoff history duh knicks lose in 6, durrr.

[Bawkish]

hurrr, if the refs don't make the worst call in playoff history duh knicks lose in 6, durrr.

Doesn't matter if they're up 3-0, there won't be gm6

[SouBeachTalents]

Arguing that a series was competitive just because it went 7 is like talking about the al horford Joe Johnson hawks taking the peak big 3 Celtics to 7. Or like the roy hibbert pacers taking the peak LeBron wade heat to 7.

The fact of the matter is Ewing and the Knicks WHOOPED the Bulls ass with peak Scottie as the leader. Its like a football game where you know your team is worse but the score is within 7 points in the middle of the 3rd quarter. You have hope... but you're still gonna lose.
Those are bad examples. The '08 Hawks were literally never competitive in Boston, and while Game 1 went down to the wire, every time the Pacers lost the rest of the series they lost decisively, including a complete blowout in Game 7.

Y'all can harp on Kukoc's GW, but the Knicks first 3 wins were all decided by 5 points or less, including the infamous foul call in Game 5 which completely changed the trajectory of the series. And even Game 7 was just a 4 point game heading into the 4th. So yeah, the notion that this series was some ass whooping by the Knicks is preposterous, especially considering the Bulls outscored the Knicks in the series :lol

[Johnny32]

Doesn't matter if they're up 3-0, there won't be gm6

so only you can play the retarded 'what if' game. lol you're pathetic.

[tpols]

Those are bad examples. The '08 Hawks were literally never competitive in Boston, and while Game 1 went down to the wire, every time the Pacers lost the rest of the series they lost decisively, including a complete blowout in Game 7.

Y'all can harp on Kukoc's GW, but the Knicks first 3 wins were all decided by 5 points or less, including the infamous foul call in Game 5 which completely changed the trajectory of the series. And even Game 7 was just a 4 point game heading into the 4th. So yeah, the notion that this series was some ass whooping by the Knicks is preposterous, especially considering the Bulls outscored the Knicks in the series :lol

The Bulls were 1 MIRACLE shot away from 0-3.


https://youtu.be/8NSpgbPcxoU

That's a miracle shot. And Pippen sat that play out because of spite. But **** team results... Ewing killed Pippen individually in stats too. Offense. Defense. Efficiency. Everything. What's your argument for that?

[Bawkish]

Those are bad examples. The '08 Hawks were literally never competitive in Boston, and while Game 1 went down to the wire, every time the Pacers lost the rest of the series they lost decisively, including a complete blowout in Game 7.

Y'all can harp on Kukoc's GW, but the Knicks first 3 wins were all decided by 5 points or less, including the infamous foul call in Game 5 which completely changed the trajectory of the series. And even Game 7 was just a 4 point game heading into the 4th. So yeah, the notion that this series was some ass whooping by the Knicks is preposterous, especially considering the Bulls outscored the Knicks in the series :lol

You're talking in hindsight

Kukoc's GW is the series changer, we don't know if the Bulls stay competitive after being down 0-3. Maybe the Knicks blow them out in Game 4.

[Johnny32]

here's the knicks 4 wins in the series.

gm 1 - knicks down 9 heading into the 4th qtr and win by 4
gm 2 - knicks down 3 heading into the 4th qtr and win by 5
gm 5 - knicks up 2 heading into the 4th qtr and win by 1
gm 7 - knicks up 4 heading into the 4th qtr and win by 10

hurrr, not competitive, durrr

[ShawkFactory]

Arguing that a series was competitive just because it went 7 is like talking about the al horford Joe Johnson hawks taking the peak big 3 Celtics to 7. Or like the roy hibbert pacers taking the peak LeBron wade heat to 7.

The fact of the matter is Ewing and the Knicks WHOOPED the Bulls ass with peak Scottie as the leader. Its like a football game where you know your team is worse but the score is within 7 points in the middle of the 3rd quarter. You have hope... but you're still gonna lose.

You’re the one saying a 7 game series wasn’t competitive. You’re the one who has to make that argument that is wasn’t, not the other way around.

The Bulls outscored the Knicks in the series. Higher ORTG. Less TOs.

Knicks outrebounded by 8 TOTAL. In 7 games.

The Bulls had more team assists.

But please, tell me more about how the series wasn’t competitive when I know your ass didn’t watch it.

[ShawkFactory]

You're talking in hindsight

Kukoc's GW is the series changer, we don't know if the Bulls stay competitive after being down 0-3. Maybe the Knicks blow them out in Game 4.

Or maybe the Bulls win in overtime at home. The game was fvcking tied.

[RRR3]

Or maybe the Bulls win in overtime at home. The game was fvcking tied.
:lol

Mikey Mythologists at it again

[Johnny32]

the bulls wins.

gm 3 - up 17 after 3rd qtr
gm 4 - up 10 after 3rd qtr
gm 6 - up 14 after 3rd qtr

it's almost like the bulls were the better team but the league stepped in to protect someone's legacy. oh wait.

[Bawkish]

Or maybe the Bulls win in overtime at home. The game was fvcking tied.

It's possible, or maybe Knicks came out

Look at 1995 Finals, Game 1 is everybody's game till the 4 FT miss. Orlando was never the same for the next 3 games

[ShawkFactory]

It's possible, or maybe Knicks came out

Look at 1995 Finals, Game 1 is everybody's game till the 4 FT miss. Orlando was never the same for the next 3 games

So that kinda ruins the whole “miracle” aspect then, yea?