LeGOATest had better records against west in most of the 15 seasons he played in east

[TheGoatest]

2003-04 Cavs: 29-25 against the East, 6-22 against the West = Better record against the East
2004-05 Cavs: 26-26 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the West
2005-06 Cavs: 34-18 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2006-07 Cavs: 31-21 against the East, 19-11 against the West = Better record against the West
2007-08 Cavs: 28-24 against the East, 17-13 against the West = Better record against the West
2008-09 Cavs: 40-12 against the East, 26-4 against the West = Better record against the West
2009-10 Cavs: 38-14 against the East, 23-7 against the West = Better record against the West
2010-11 Heat: 38-14 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the East
2011-12 Heat: 35-13 against the East, 11-7 against the West = Better record against the East
2012-13 Heat: 41-11 against the East, 25-5 against the West = Better record against the West
2013-14 Heat: 34-18 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the West
2014-15 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 18-12 against the West = Better record against the East
2015-16 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 22-8 against the West = Better record against the West
2016-17 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2017-18 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 15-15 against the West = Better record against the East

That's 8 seasons where he had better records against the west than the east, vs 7 seasons the other way around.

Anyone hear that sound?
Oh wait, that's just the sound of the LeBron haters life-long "argument" of LeBron having it easy in the east being flushed down the toilet. :oldlol: :lol

[Axe]

I don't regular seasons don't matter anymore WTF.

[TheGoatest]

I don't regular seasons don't matter anymore WTF.

The LeBron haters' argument is that he was unable to make the playoffs in the Lakers in 2018-19, even though the Lakers were comfortably in the playoffs before he went down with injury.
This thread absolutely obliterates their weak "argument" and proves that there would've been no difference whatsoever in his playoff-making ability had he played in the west.
In fact, the only difference that him playing in the west would've done is him making the playoffs in 2004-05, where he missed the playoffs on a tie-breaker 42-40 record.

[Axe]

Oh ok but would it be fair if they use the very same argument for other atgs not named 'lebron james' or this one only applies to him alone?

[Spurs m8]

What about the finals...when it matters?

Guys?

[Spurs m8]

He did have it easy in the East, this literally doesn't disprove that what so ever.

Are you literally retarded?

Fvck you are the biggest deceptive rat

No one on here believes anything you say

[TheGoatest]

Oh ok but would it be fair if they use the very same argument for other atgs not named 'lebron james' or this one only applies to him alone?

I don't know. What other ATGs are insulted for playing in a particular conference as much as LeBron. Magic Johnson played in a rival-less west throughout the 1980s, but he is never insulted like LeBron because of this.

[SATAN]

Spurs m8 is logged on every single time I check back on these "debates" etc. Looks like he's been logged on since this morning. :biggums:

This guy claims to have time off work to look after his kids n shit. Jesus Christ, man. Go and spend time with your family.

Unless you made it up that is...

[Baller789]

I don't know. What other ATGs are insulted for playing in a particular conference as much as LeBron. Magic Johnson played in a rival-less west throughout the 1980s, but he is never insulted like LeBron because of this.

Doesn't matter.

Did he play in a historically weak conference for a decade?

Thats a yes or no question.

[TheGoatest]

Doesn't matter.

Did he play in a historically weak conference for a decade?

Thats a yes or no question.

What's "historically weak"? Compared to the 90s, neither Magic nor LeBron played in historically weak conferences, as the 90s had weaker easts AND wests.

[HoopsNY]

Great post. This is often left out of the conversation. The fact remains is that Cleveland from 2005-2006 to 2009-2010 had a great record against the West, including many of the elite teams like the Spurs and Lakers. Similarly, the Heat from 2011-2014 also had a great record against the Western Conference.

The one push back I'd give is that LeBron's teams often had to go through some dog fights in the Eastern Conference playoffs (like against Boston or Indiana in 2012 and 2018). 2017 and 2018 weren't great years against the West and his team likely gets bounced in the 1st or 2nd rounds if they had to face elite teams out West during the playoffs as opposed to the finals.

In addition, 2012 and 2013 come off of the strength of superteams. So while the Cavs from 2006-2010 don't get enough credit, LeBron included, the Heat from 2011-2014 and the Cavs from 2015-2018 get too much credit, and that includes LeBron.

[Axe]

Great post. This is often left out of the conversation. The fact remains is that Cleveland from 2005-2006 to 2009-2010 had a great record against the West, including many of the elite teams like the Spurs and Lakers. Similarly, the Heat from 2011-2014 also had a great record against the Western Conference.

The one push back I'd give is that LeBron's teams often had to go through some dog fights in the Eastern Conference playoffs (like against Boston or Indiana in 2012 and 2018). 2017 and 2018 weren't great years against the West and his team likely gets bounced in the 1st or 2nd rounds if they had to face elite teams out West during the playoffs as opposed to the finals.

In addition, 2012 and 2013 come off of the strength of superteams. So while the Cavs from 2006-2010 don't get enough credit, LeBron included, the Heat from 2011-2014 and the Cavs from 2015-2018 get too much credit, and that includes LeBron.
Also add this; even with some elite teams, it took king kong three different title runs that still had to undergo at least one game seven along the way before his teams got to win rings. Just something op might want to be aware about.

[HoopsNY]

Also add this; even with some elite teams, it took king kong three different title runs that still had to undergo at least one game seven along the way before his teams got to win rings. Just something op might want to be aware about.

I tend to focus on groupings of data as opposed to isolating the specific years. In the case of LeBron, it's clear that playing in the East during his tenure with Cleveland from 2006-2010 wasn't really a factor to Cleveland's success. As such, his finals appearance in 2007 was very much authentic and should be praised. In many ways, he doesn't get enough credit for it, nor does his cast.

The 2011-2013 are overly praised, largely because that was a superteam. There's no way to really avoid that, it is what it is. And facing tougher Western Conference opponents may or may not have affected their ability to go to the finals. Given that they were a superteam, it's very likely that they make it to the finals anyway or possibly lose in the WCF against a team like Dallas or San Antonio.

The Cavs from 2015-2018 were interesting because the 2017 and 2018 Cavs really had no business being in the finals. For one, they got lucky with the injuries to Kyrie and Isaiah Thomas in Boston. But playing in the East those particular years still benefited them greatly.

You can't take away LeBron's finals appearances. They are what they are. But you can apply context if the litmus test against another all-time great (in this case it's always MJ), is finals appearances. Therefore, the context must apply. Without a superteam in Miami, it's very possible Miami only makes it to 2 finals as opposed to 4. And it's also possible Cleveland doesn't make it to the finals in 2017 and 2018 if Cleveland is in the west those years.

With that being said, the OP still made a great point. LeBron's record vs. the West is underrated and rarely mentioned. It should factor into the conversation. And even if we were to discredit finals appearances - and by extension, championships - then we're looking at what, 6 appearances, maybe 2-3 titles still? It's still very impressive.

[Full Court]

Personally, I've never made the argument that he had it easy as far as his conference goes.

All I know, is 6/10, -86, 2011 epic choke.

[RogueBorg]

2003-04 Cavs: 29-25 against the East, 6-22 against the West = Better record against the East
2004-05 Cavs: 26-26 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the West
2005-06 Cavs: 34-18 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2006-07 Cavs: 31-21 against the East, 19-11 against the West = Better record against the West
2007-08 Cavs: 28-24 against the East, 17-13 against the West = Better record against the West
2008-09 Cavs: 40-12 against the East, 26-4 against the West = Better record against the West
2009-10 Cavs: 38-14 against the East, 23-7 against the West = Better record against the West
2010-11 Heat: 38-14 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the East
2011-12 Heat: 35-13 against the East, 11-7 against the West = Better record against the East
2012-13 Heat: 41-11 against the East, 25-5 against the West = Better record against the West
2013-14 Heat: 34-18 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the West
2014-15 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 18-12 against the West = Better record against the East
2015-16 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 22-8 against the West = Better record against the West
2016-17 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2017-18 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 15-15 against the West = Better record against the East

That's 8 seasons where he had better records against the west than the east, vs 7 seasons the other way around.

Anyone hear that sound?
Oh wait, that's just the sound of the LeBron haters life-long "argument" of LeBron having it easy in the east being flushed down the toilet. :oldlol: :lol

-86

[dankok8]

One thing OP's analysis neglects is that a team needs much higher win totals to make the playoffs in the West. For instance say the 2018 Cavs played in the West. They would play 52 games against West teams and get 26 wins out of that (50% win rate from 15-15). They would play 30 games against the East and get 20 wins out of that (67.3% win rate from 35-17). With a total of 46 wins, the Cavs don't make the playoffs that year.

Another thing to consider is the much tougher road to the title in many years going through the West. For instance in 2012 in the West the Heat would have had to beat both the Spurs and OKC without Bosh and hobbled Wade through some of those games. Do they still make it? In 2016 they have to go through both Golden State and OKC to win the title. Those two rings get a lot tougher IMO. 2013 is the one year I don't see a big difference because the Spurs were the only real dog in the West.

I think instead of a 4-6 finals record, Lebron has a 3-0 finals record if he's in the West his whole career. 2013, 2020 and one of 2012/2016.

[Axe]

I tend to focus on groupings of data as opposed to isolating the specific years. In the case of LeBron, it's clear that playing in the East during his tenure with Cleveland from 2006-2010 wasn't really a factor to Cleveland's success. As such, his finals appearance in 2007 was very much authentic and should be praised. In many ways, he doesn't get enough credit for it, nor does his cast.

The 2011-2013 are overly praised, largely because that was a superteam. There's no way to really avoid that, it is what it is. And facing tougher Western Conference opponents may or may not have affected their ability to go to the finals. Given that they were a superteam, it's very likely that they make it to the finals anyway or possibly lose in the WCF against a team like Dallas or San Antonio.

The Cavs from 2015-2018 were interesting because the 2017 and 2018 Cavs really had no business being in the finals. For one, they got lucky with the injuries to Kyrie and Isaiah Thomas in Boston. But playing in the East those particular years still benefited them greatly.

You can't take away LeBron's finals appearances. They are what they are. But you can apply context if the litmus test against another all-time great (in this case it's always MJ), is finals appearances. Therefore, the context must apply. Without a superteam in Miami, it's very possible Miami only makes it to 2 finals as opposed to 4. And it's also possible Cleveland doesn't make it to the finals in 2017 and 2018 if Cleveland is in the west those years.

With that being said, the OP still made a great point. LeBron's record vs. the West is underrated and rarely mentioned. It should factor into the conversation. And even if we were to discredit finals appearances - and by extension, championships - then we're looking at what, 6 appearances, maybe 2-3 titles still? It's still very impressive.
Lol you're right. The west is really a gauntlet compared to the east in the past decade. And because of what happened in the league during that time, maybe people should start labelling lebron as the dynasty himself despite being an individual player and not a perennial franchise rofl. Tho yes, while in '07 he overachieved, the streak really started when he got to south beach and had the triumvirate. It just sucks that, while he's a great player and all, that heat team with the trio weren't even considered a dynasty close to GS or the spurs were during their peak years despite their four-straight trips to the finals. They fell short of what was expected even if his team did have the talent. And when those shortcomings are present, well, tons of alibis and excuses are just there waiting to be brought up by his fans, like blaming his coach or teammates or his opponents are too strong and this gets tiresome tbh. In his return to cleveland tho, i think he would have won more had GS not risen to prominence. I could recall the cavs were even favored in the finals 7 years ago until injuries to kevin love and kyrie irving shifted the odds to the dubs' favor. Then in a span of less than two years, that western team became successful and their popularity skyrocketed with their numerous bandwagon fans lol. Yet they were totally fazed in 2016. Which led to kd's arse signing with them after blowing a 3-1 series lead against them in the playoffs like wtf. Anyway, the talent disparity that lebron had between him and his teammates became most prominent in 2018, that no matter how hard he tried to be a formidable carrying machine they were still no match for the mighty kd-led dubs in the finals that year. Dunno what happened to kevin love and his retarded coach back then but i remember the team underwent some major overhaul in february 2018 which included former all-stars like derrick rose, d-wade and kyle korver tho it didn't do wonders for them that much when he wasn't playing. I'm saying this because he's in a team sport and it's really a different feel if someone like him with capable teams is truly dominant at winning it all for a long time which would have solidified his case as the goat, probably by not having a losing finals record if his career is to be looked at as a whole. But even if he's not all that, at least he tries to compete until now and what he has in his resume is still better than nothing at all. However, the team-hopping/leaving antics and gm-acting behavior would really get in the way at times when the discussion is about him, moreso if his decisions don't end up too well after some periods have passed.

[86Celtics]

2003-04 Cavs: 29-25 against the East, 6-22 against the West = Better record against the East
2004-05 Cavs: 26-26 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the West
2005-06 Cavs: 34-18 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2006-07 Cavs: 31-21 against the East, 19-11 against the West = Better record against the West
2007-08 Cavs: 28-24 against the East, 17-13 against the West = Better record against the West
2008-09 Cavs: 40-12 against the East, 26-4 against the West = Better record against the West
2009-10 Cavs: 38-14 against the East, 23-7 against the West = Better record against the West
2010-11 Heat: 38-14 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the East
2011-12 Heat: 35-13 against the East, 11-7 against the West = Better record against the East
2012-13 Heat: 41-11 against the East, 25-5 against the West = Better record against the West
2013-14 Heat: 34-18 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the West
2014-15 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 18-12 against the West = Better record against the East
2015-16 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 22-8 against the West = Better record against the West
2016-17 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2017-18 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 15-15 against the West = Better record against the East

That's 8 seasons where he had better records against the west than the east, vs 7 seasons the other way around.

Anyone hear that sound?
Oh wait, that's just the sound of the LeBron haters life-long "argument" of LeBron having it easy in the east being flushed down the toilet. :oldlol: :lol

Since you love totals so much, here is the sum of his wins and losses against the East and the West according to your numbers:

Against the East he was 514-264 ~66%.
Against the West he was 270-166 ~62%.

[Baller789]

What's "historically weak"? Compared to the 90s, neither Magic nor LeBron played in historically weak conferences, as the 90s had weaker easts AND wests.

Outside Lebron's teams, how many real contenders did the East have?
Feel free to use your usual mental gymnastics on this one.

[BigShotBob]

The one time Lebron faced an NBA Finals contender in the first round......he lost.

[ELITEpower23]

2003-04 Cavs: 29-25 against the East, 6-22 against the West = Better record against the East
2004-05 Cavs: 26-26 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the West
2005-06 Cavs: 34-18 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2006-07 Cavs: 31-21 against the East, 19-11 against the West = Better record against the West
2007-08 Cavs: 28-24 against the East, 17-13 against the West = Better record against the West
2008-09 Cavs: 40-12 against the East, 26-4 against the West = Better record against the West
2009-10 Cavs: 38-14 against the East, 23-7 against the West = Better record against the West
2010-11 Heat: 38-14 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the East
2011-12 Heat: 35-13 against the East, 11-7 against the West = Better record against the East
2012-13 Heat: 41-11 against the East, 25-5 against the West = Better record against the West
2013-14 Heat: 34-18 against the East, 20-10 against the West = Better record against the West
2014-15 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 18-12 against the West = Better record against the East
2015-16 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 22-8 against the West = Better record against the West
2016-17 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 16-14 against the West = Better record against the East
2017-18 Cavs: 35-17 against the East, 15-15 against the West = Better record against the East

That's 8 seasons where he had better records against the west than the east, vs 7 seasons the other way around.

Anyone hear that sound?
Oh wait, that's just the sound of the LeBron haters life-long "argument" of LeBron having it easy in the east being flushed down the toilet. :oldlol: :lol

Flushed right down the toilet :oldlol:

[kawhileonard2]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html

[TheGoatest]

Flushed right down the toilet :oldlol:

I know, right? They are mad as hell too. Notice how every reply by the alts has zero substance and is nothing but conjecture and circle-jerking. :oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

I know, right? They are mad as hell too. Notice how every reply by the alts has zero substance and is nothing but conjecture and circle-jerking. :oldlol:

Happy Friday

Does LeBron give you the weekend off?

He didn't give you NYE off, so I'm guessing no.

Plus he probably pays you minimum wage, so you need to work 7 days a week.