ONLY mj can argue that he never lost with good teams

[3ba11]

Everyone else got hammered with 1 or 2 seeds, favorites, defending champion teams, and Finals teams

[HunterSThompson]

well Jordan's lost with good/great teams. but when his team was expected to win it all he did every time. 95 is the only time I genuinely thought the bulls would win but they didn't. Jordan can use the excuse that his body wasn't ready but kobes played through way tougher setbacks physically and won with and without Shaq.

jordan got stripped by nick Anderson to cost his team a game. can't blame that on his body. he just had a brain fart

even the goat isn't perfect

[StrongLurk]

Would OP go away if everyone on ISH just told him MJ is the goat?

Is it this simple?

[Spurs m8]

Jeez, Satan, what a meltdown lmao

Guess he had no comeback for something that just destroyed him

[expansionera]

MJ choked ‘95 and never made the playoffs alongside prime Larry Hughes and Jerry Stackhouse.

[HunterSThompson]

btw in 95 I knew jordan would lose to the rockets had they made it that far. that's why I don't count 95 as a year he was expected to win and didn't.

[SouBeachTalents]

Would OP go away if everyone on ISH just told him MJ is the goat?

Is it this simple?
No, because he needs everyone to believe

Jordan's the unquestioned GOAT
LeBron isn't top 10
Pippen was a bum

[HunterSThompson]

No, because he needs everyone to believe

Jordan's the unquestioned GOAT
LeBron isn't top 10
Pippen was a bum

Jordan's the overwhelming goat. lebrons top 5-6 with kobe and pippens a top 30 to 35 player ever due to his career achievements

this is the majority opinion of players and fans. 3ball and lebron fans on ISH both have it ass backwards for some things

[3ba11]

well Jordan's lost with good/great teams. but when his team was expected to win it all he did every time. 95 is the only time I genuinely thought the bulls would win but they didn't. Jordan can use the excuse that his body wasn't ready but kobes played through way tougher setbacks physically and won with and without Shaq.

jordan got stripped by nick Anderson to cost his team a game. can't blame that on his body. he just had a brain fart

even the goat isn't perfect


When did Jordan lose with good teams, like a 1 or 2 seed, a favorite, a defending champion team, or Finals teams?

[StrongLurk]

No, because he needs everyone to believe

Jordan's the unquestioned GOAT
LeBron isn't top 10
Pippen was a bum

I dunno about that, the Lebron/Pip stuff are just OP's meltdowns. He wouldn't meltdown if we just told him MJ is goat.

Maybe he would go away and quit spamming here every day? Hmm...interesting.

[3ba11]

Jordan's the overwhelming goat. lebrons top 5-6 with kobe and pippens a top 30 to 35 player ever due to his career achievements

this is the majority opinion of players and fans. 3ball and lebron fans on ISH both have it ass backwards for some things


2nd options don't get credit for horry-rings and never have, so everyone is just stupid for overrating this guy for so long.

And you sound dumb as hell saying "everyone thinks" basically conceding that you're a group think guy.. cringe . Vomit... Stay away from me loser

[HunterSThompson]

When did Jordan lose with good teams, like a 1 or 2 seed, a favorite, a defending champion team, or Finals teams?

can't really go by seeds cause jordan didn't join till late in the year. they probly get the 2nd seed had jordan started the year.

I think he was less than 100% due to some rust but even jordan at 80% should beat the piss out of penny and nick.

just let shaq get his and shut down everyone else. bulls shoulda took it in 6

[3ba11]

can't really go by seeds cause jordan didn't join till late in the year. they probly get the 2nd seed had jordan started the year.

I think he was less than 100% due to some rust but even jordan at 80% should beat the piss out of penny and nick.

just let shaq get his and shut down everyone else. bulls shoulda took it in 6


You said Jordan lost with good/great teams - which ones?

The 95' team was borderline lottery before he came back - Pippen had destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months

[StrongLurk]

2nd options don't get credit for horry-rings and never have, so everyone is just stupid for overrating this guy for so long.

And you sound dumb as hell saying "everyone thinks" basically conceding that you're a group think guy.. cringe . Vomit... Stay away from me loser

Looks like Satan had the right idea. OP is only worth shit responses.

[HunterSThompson]

2nd options don't get credit for horry-rings and never have, so everyone is just stupid for overrating this guy for so long.

And you sound dumb as hell saying "everyone thinks" basically conceding that you're a group think guy.. cringe . Vomit... Stay away from me loser

its silly to discount the majority opinion of players and fans. I don't go strictly by them. I use them as much as I use my own eye test and their careers. I combine everything. I can't just use my own biased opinion or I would have lebron like 11th or 12th. and then I'm just being a retard like them. don't bring yourself down to their level.

they say lebrons the goat. we think lebrond outside of the top 10. most players and fans have him in the middle somewhere. that sounds about right. it's like figure skating judges. you drop the best and worst scores to keep it from being rigged

as for pippen I personally think he's vastly overrated offensively. but defensively he's one of the top 5 ever. that alone helped the bulls win some rings. I would say skill wise he's a top 50 player or so. but his resume and public perception bumps him up to 30 to 35 all time.

youre too harsh on him. even I say gasol is around 80th all time. and the top 75 all time player list validated my opinion. Kobe haters on here act like he's top 50 and the real mvp of multiple finals. bit if he was he woulda made that 75th list.

I'm just being fair and balanced. I dont care about agendas anymore. you need to stop being obsessed with proving Jordan's value. anyone with a brain knows he's the goat. you don't even have to downplay pippen to win an argument. nobody wins on their own aside from a few flukes like hakeem in 94 or Bill Walton.

[expansionera]

nobody wins on their own aside from a few flukes like hakeem in 94 or Bill Walton.

What all star help did Lebron have in 2016 against the greatest team of all time?

[3ba11]

its silly to discount the majority opinion of players and fans. I don't go strictly by them. I use them as much as I use my own eye test and their careers. I combine everything. I can't just use my own biased opinion or I would have lebron like 11th or 12th. and then I'm just being a retard like them. don't bring yourself down to their level.

they say lebrons the goat. we think lebrond outside of the top 10. most players and fans have him in the middle somewhere. that sounds about right. it's like figure skating judges. you drop the best and worst scores to keep it from being rigged

as for pippen I personally think he's vastly overrated offensively. but defensively he's one of the top 5 ever. that alone helped the bulls win some rings. I would say skill wise he's a top 50 player or so. but his resume and public perception bumps him up to 30 to 35 all time.

youre too harsh on him. even I say gasol is around 80th all time. and the top 75 all time player list validated my opinion. Kobe haters on here act like he's top 50 and the real mvp of multiple finals. bit if he was he woulda made that 75th list.

I'm just being fair and balanced. I dont care about agendas anymore. you need to stop being obsessed with proving Jordan's value. anyone with a brain knows he's the goat. you don't even have to downplay pippen to win an argument. nobody wins on their own aside from a few flukes like hakeem in 94 or Bill Walton.


^^^ Since the bolded is obviously false, and that's the basis for your argument, then my stance on Pippen is correct

Carry on

It's funny because I guess you guys have to lie about his defense because his offense was THAT BAD for a so-called top 75 player or winning sidekick - he's objectively the worst sidekick of any team that won more than 2 Finals because the Bulls are the only team that won more than 2 Finals without a supporting player getting FMVP or 25 ppg

[HunterSThompson]

You said Jordan lost with good/great teams - which ones?

The 95' team was borderline lottery before he came back - Pippen had destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months

the bulls had a 53% win rate before jordan got back. might not sound great but it actually would have given them the 4 seed. the east was pretty bad in 95 for some reason

[HunterSThompson]

^^^ Since the bolded is obviously false, and that's the basis for your argument, then my stance on Pippen is correct

Carry on

skill wise he is. dominance wise? like if youre valuing bigs over wings for anchoring defenses then pippens probly like 10th. but strictly skills he's probly top 5.

ranker.com has him 9th with bigs included and taking all the top spots

https://www.ranker.com/list/the-best-nba-defensive-players-of-all-time-v1/jeffnorth

[HunterSThompson]

^^^ Since the bolded is obviously false, and that's the basis for your argument, then my stance on Pippen is correct

Carry on

It's funny because I guess you guys have to lie about his defense because his offense was THAT BAD for a so-called top 75 player or winning sidekick - he's objectively the worst sidekick of any team that won more than 2 Finals because the Bulls are the only team that won more than 2 Finals without a supporting player getting FMVP or 25 ppg

I have Rodman top 75 all time for just being an all time great defender/rebounder and 5 time champion

he was a role player on offense. pippen was slightly above that for 4 out of 6 titles. probly borderline allstar on offense but he was all nba defensively for sure. that can heavily contribute to a title. it's probly why he gets such a high rating by everyone

where do you rank him defensively

[HunterSThompson]

I think 3ball is right that Jordan had almost no help offensively for his titles. but the bulls were mainly built on defense and rebounding. that's why they were great..

I mean I can only say Jordan's the goat so many times. I'm not gonna lie and say pippen wasn't a great defender. he was amazing defensively.

total ass as a shooter and mentally fragile. but how much do I have to destroy the guy. didn't pippen destroy himself enough in Houston and Portland. leave the guy alone 3ball. that 1-9 shit is just some troll shit. don't let it get to ya kid

[HunterSThompson]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DentalNippyFrogmouth-max-1mb.gif

are those little fishys gonna eat that sharks poo

[3ba11]

the bulls had a 53% win rate before jordan got back. might not sound great but it actually would have given them the 4 seed. the east was pretty bad in 95 for some reason


You're lying, so I'm right again.

The 34-31 record equals a 52.3% win rate, or 42.8 wins, which is tied for the 8 seed.

Now that you were proven wrong, here's what really happened:

#1 options are supposed to build teams every year.. Unfortunately, after the honeymoon period of no pressure/surprise factor was over and the plausible deniability of being defending 3-peat champs ended by the 94' Playoffs, the 95' Bulls were borderline lottery before MJ restored 3-peat caliber.. The 95' Bulls were the "real" Bulls without MJ and they sucked.. Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months..

[SouBeachTalents]

I think 3ball is right that Jordan had almost no help offensively for his titles. but the bulls were mainly built on defense and rebounding. that's why they were great..

I mean I can only say Jordan's the goat so many times. I'm not gonna lie and say pippen wasn't a great defender. he was amazing defensively.

total ass as a shooter and mentally fragile. but how far do I have to destroy the guy. didn't pippen destroy himself enough in Houston and Portland. leave the guy alone 3ball. that 1-9 shit is just some troll shit. don't let it get to ya kid
That argument loses some merit when Pippen was routinely outscoring the opposing teams 2nd option. So historically, sure, Pippen wasn't as good as other 2nd options offensively, but for that era, he was typically the best, or at minimum in the discussion for it.

[3ba11]

I think 3ball is right that Jordan had almost no help offensively for his titles. but the bulls were mainly built on defense and rebounding. that's why they were great..





^^^ it's just another lie or misconception that flies in the face of the facts

Despite Pippen's inept offense and playing 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, the Bulls had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average

So you're wrong again

Infact, the 94' Bulls had the same defensive rank (6th) as the 1st three-peat Bulls (7,the, 4th, 7th).. So the massive decline from 3-peat to 2nd Round was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense, which caused the offense to decline from goat to middle of the league.

[HunterSThompson]

You're lying, so I'm right again.

The 34-31 record equals a 52.3% win rate, or 42.8 wins, which is tied for the 8 seed.

Now that you were proven wrong, here's what really happened:

#1 options are supposed to build teams every year.. Unfortunately, after the honeymoon period of no pressure/surprise factor was over and the plausible deniability of being defending 3-peat champs ended by the 94' Playoffs, the 95' Bulls were borderline lottery before MJ restored 3-peat caliber.. The 95' Bulls were the "real" Bulls without MJ and they sucked.. Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months..

https://i.ibb.co/0mQQXM4/Screenshot-20220108-185848-Chrome.jpg


52.3 isn't really possible over an 82 game schedule. it would turn into 52.4 and a tie with Cleveland for the 5th seed.


and are you counting Chicago as one of the teams Chicago would be going up against?

[HunterSThompson]

^^^ it's just another lie or misconception that flies in the face of the facts

Despite Pippen's inept offense and playing 4 on 5 offensively with Rodman, the Bulls had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average

So you're wrong again

Infact, the 94' Bulls had the same defensive rank (6th) as the 1st three-peat Bulls (7,the, 4th, 7th).. So the massive decline from 3-peat to 2nd Round was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense, which caused the offense to decline from goat to middle of the league.

wait. so you don't think the Bulls won with defense and rebounding mostly and just relied on Jordan's 30 a game. he carried them offensively but I don't think offense is the entire reason why they won games. they always had great defenders everywhere with Grant, pippen, Jordan, Rodman, harper and others.

[Axe]

Op vs kenny this time :roll:

[StrongLurk]

wait. so you don't think the Bulls won with defense and rebounding mostly and just relied on Jordan's 30 a game. he carried them offensively but I don't think offense is the entire reason why they won games. they always had great defenders everywhere with Grant, pippen, Jordan, Rodman, harper and others.

Can't believe you are actually engaging with three ball...massive waste of time.

[HunterSThompson]

Op vs kenny this time :roll:

I mean I told him Jordan's the goat by far. I said pippens trash offensively. I said jordan really only lost as the favorite once. I'm not being disrespectful. just honest. Jordan carried the bulls on one end and was arguably the best defender they had. him or pippen took turns defending the other teams top scorers. Jordan's the untouchable goat but the guy isn't perfect.

I dunno what 3ball wants.

[3ba11]

That argument loses some merit when Pippen was routinely outscoring the opposing teams 2nd option. So historically, sure, Pippen wasn't as good as other 2nd options offensively, but for that era, he was typically the best, or at minimum in the discussion for it.


Pippen averaged between 15-22 ppg so he mostly tied the opposing player give or take, with literally the worst efficiency ever and therefore outplayed in most series.

Outside of 94' when Pippen was 1st option, he was outscored in 19 of 41 series in his career with worst-ever efficiency, and 7 of 7 series outscored without MJ from 99-03'... So he was only even a 2nd option alongside Jordan.

Most importantly, Pippen was the only sidekick at that time or ever that never got anywhere near their #1 option in any series (carried), while also having one of the lowest peak scoring ever (15-22 ppg).. Guys like Payton/Kemp or Worthy/Magic or Shaq/Penny or Hakeem/Drexler or KJ/Barkley were more like 1a/1b where they alternated the scoring lead in various series... so ONLY pippen was carried every series

[Axe]

I mean I told him Jordan's the goat by far. I said pippens trash offensively. I said jordan really only lost as the favorite once. I'm not being disrespectful. just honest. Jordan carried the bulls on one end and was arguably the best defender they had. him or pippen took turns defending the other teams top scorers. Jordan's the untouchable goat but the guy isn't perfect.

I dunno what 3ball wants.
At least you do engage in non basketball discussions. Unlike op whose life revolves around kong, baldone, mamba and pip.

[Phoenix]

Outside of 94' when Pippen was 1st option, he was outscored in 19 of 41 series in his career with worst-ever efficiency,

So what happened in the other 22 series?

[SouBeachTalents]

So what happened in the other 22 series?
And more importantly, what happened during the title years? Pippen outscored the opponents 2nd option in 16 of 24 series.

[3ba11]

So what happened in the other 22 series?


Pippen averaged between 15-22 ppg so he mostly tied the opposing player give or take, with literally the worst efficiency ever and therefore outplayed in most series.

[HunterSThompson]

jordan averaged 32/7/5/2/1 on 48%fgs and 37% threes in the 95 playoffs. he was already back to 100%


https://youtu.be/wGq_ZX430Rc

looks like MJ to me

he had a solid roster like kobes 2009 title team. it wasn't amazing or the deepest but the bulls coulda got to the finals with it

[kawhileonard2]

MJ is the only player who won league and/or finals mvp that is undefeated in series with HCA, Same Seed, or Higher Seed.

[3ba11]

And more importantly, what happened during the title years? Pippen outscored the opponents 2nd option in 16 of 24 series.


That's in the lower tier for a winning sidekick, and given the efficiency, arguably the worst

Furthermore, Pippen was the only sidekick at that time or ever that never got anywhere near their #1 option in any series (carried), while also having one of the lowest peak scoring ever (15-22 ppg).. Guys like Payton/Kemp or Worthy/Magic or Shaq/Penny or Hakeem/Drexler or KJ/Barkley were more like 1a/1b where they alternated the scoring lead in various series... so ONLY pippen was carried every series

[Hey Yo]

wait. so you don't think the Bulls won with defense and rebounding mostly and just relied on Jordan's 30 a game. he carried them offensively but I don't think offense is the entire reason why they won games. they always had great defenders everywhere with Grant, pippen, Jordan, Rodman, harper and others.

MJ's 24pts in game 3 of the 98 Finals is why Utah was only able to score 54pts that game.

[HunterSThompson]

MJ is the only player who won league and/or finals mvp that is undefeated in series with HCA, Same Seed, or Higher Seed.

hes the goat but this did happen. he's not infallible


https://youtu.be/b58glke4ZIQ

[Phoenix]

Pippen averaged between 15-22 ppg so he mostly tied the opposing player give or take, with literally the worst efficiency ever and therefore outplayed in most series.

You said Pippen was outscored 19 of 41 series. That's pretty specific. What happened in the other 22 series? An answer with more care than 'something something give or take', thanks.

[SouBeachTalents]

Furthermore, Pippen was the only sidekick at that time or ever that never got anywhere near their #1 option in any series
Well he sure got close to the other teams #1 option

1991 FR
Pippen: 20/9/5/3 55%TS
Ewing: 17/10/2 47%TS

1991 ECSF
Pippen: 23/9/6 61%TS
Barkley: 26/10/5 67%TS

1991 ECF
Pippen: 22/8/5/3/2 56%TS
Isiah: 17/5/6 49%TS

1991 Finals
Pippen: 21/9/7 53%TS
Magic: 19/8/12 61%TS

1992 ECF
Pippen: 20/11/6/2/2 54%TS
Price: 19/2/5 61%TS

1992 Finals
Pippen: 21/8/8 56%TS
Drexler: 25/8/5 52%TS

1993 ECSF
Pippen: 18/6/5/3 51%TS
Price: 14/2/6 64%TS

1993 ECF
Pippen: 23/7/4 57%TS
Ewing: 26/11/3 57%TS

1996 FR
Pippen: 20/11/7/3/2 64%TS
Mourning: 18/6/1 57%TS

1997 FR
Pippen: 17/9/3 50%TS
Webber: 16/8/3 70%TS

1997 ECSF
Pippen: 22/6/6 52%TS
Blaylock: 21/7/6 58%TS

1997 ECF
Pippen: 17/5/3 53%TS
Hardaway: 17/5/6 49%TS

1997 Finals
Pippen: 20/8/4/2/2 54%TS
Malone: 24/11/4 49%TS

1998 FR
Pippen: 18/7/6 53%TS
Williams: 7/14/2 44%TS

1998 ECSF
Pippen: 18/7/5/3 54%TS
Rice: 23/5/2 52%TS

1998 ECF
Pippen: 17/8/5 46%TS
Reggie: 17/2/2 59%TS

[3ba11]

wait. so you don't think the Bulls won with defense and rebounding mostly and just relied on Jordan's 30 a game. he carried them offensively but I don't think offense is the entire reason why they won games. they always had great defenders everywhere with Grant, pippen, Jordan, Rodman, harper and others.


The Bulls literally had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average

That's the biggest reason why they won, as confirmed by Jordan's absence in 94':

The 94' Bulls had the same defensive rank (6th) as the 1st three-peat Bulls (7,the, 4th, 7th).. So the massive decline from 3-peat to 2nd Round was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense, which caused the offense to decline from goat to middle of the league.

[ShawkFactory]

So the massive decline from 3-peat to 2nd Round was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense

Or it could just be that when a team loses their best player they, you know... typically aren't quite as good.

[3ba11]

Well he sure got close to the other teams #1 option





Exactly, he basically never outscored the opposing #1 option

That's pathetic because every other sidekick did so or matched their own team's #1 option (1b status) with higher peak scoring than Pippen's

Only Pippen was carried in every series

[HunterSThompson]

The Bulls literally had four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average

That's the biggest reason why they won, as confirmed by Jordan's absence in 94':

The 94' Bulls had the same defensive rank (6th) as the 1st three-peat Bulls (7,the, 4th, 7th).. So the massive decline from 3-peat to 2nd Round was due entirely to the absence of Jordan's goat offense, which caused the offense to decline from goat to middle of the league.

the sun's had the best offense in 05, 06, 07, 09 and 10 and they never won shit. championship teams win with defense and rebounding. the offense is great but it's not as valuable as defense because your shot comes and goes. you gotta win grind it out games sometimes like the 96 finals. defense and rebounding was the difference maker that series. the finals mvp coulda went to Rodman

you're undervaluing defense. before the last 10 years it actually used to mean something. you should know this. and it's not even a slight to jordan cause he was probly a top 5 skilled defender ever as well and took the other teams top scorer more often than pippen

[Phoenix]

That's in the lower tier for a winning sidekick, and given the efficiency, arguably the worst



So you're advocating Pippen should have outscored the opposing sidekick 24/24 times? So you wanted the Bulls to have

1) the best scorer
2) the best sidekick scorer
3) the best rebounder
4) the best 6th man
5) the best 3point specialist

Anything else? How about playing every game at Chicago Stadium or the United Center?

[Phoenix]

Or it could just be that when a team loses their best player they, you know... typically aren't quite as good.

It's like he stumbled on some great discovery that a team losing its best player typically has negative consequences.

[HunterSThompson]

So you're advocating Pippen should have outscored the opposing sidekick 24/24 times? So you wanted the Bulls to have

1) the best scorer
2) the best sidekick scorer
3) the best rebounder
4) the best 6th man
5) the best 3point specialist

Anything else? How about playing every game at Chicago Stadium or the United Center?

only lebron is known for having that much help since the 80s

2011 first round:
Wade - 22/8/5 with 53%ts PERFORMED BETTER
Bosh - 20/9/1 with 54%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Best 76er player Brand - 15/8/0 with 57%ts


2011 2nd round:
Wade - 30/7/5 with 55%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Best celtic player Pierce - 19/5/3 with 57%ts


2011 3rd round:
Bosh - 23/8/1 with 69%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Bulls best player Rose - 23/4/6 with 43%ts


2011 finals:
Wade - 27/7/5 with 61%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Mavs best player Dirk - 26/9/2 with 53%ts


2012 2nd round:
Wade - 26/6/3 with 54%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Pacers best player Granger - 13/4/3 with 48%ts

2012 3rd round:
Wade - 21/6/5 with 52%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Bostons best player Garnett - 19/9/1 with 52%ts????
or Pierce - 18/4/2 with 43%ts? lol


2013 1st round:
Allen - 17/4/2 with 66%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
bucks best player Ellis - 14/3/5 with 45%ts

2013 2nd round:
Bosh - 14/9/2 with 56%ts EVEN
vs
Bulls best player butler - 15/6/2 with 58%ts

2013 Finals:
Wade - 20/4/5/2 with 51%ts EVEN
vs
Spurs best player Duncan 18/12/1 with 55%ts

2014 2nd round:
Wade - 18/4/4 with 55%ts EVEN
vs
nets best player johnson 20/4/2 with 65%ts

2014 finals:
Wade - 15/4/3/2 with 50%ts EVEN
vs
Spurs best player Kawhi - 17/6/2/2 with 75%ts

2015 first round:
Kyrie - 23/5/4 with 58%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Boston best player Thomas - 17/3/7 with 51%ts

2015 2nd round:
Kyrie - 18/2/3 with 59%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Bulls best player Rose - 21/5/6 with 45%ts

2015 3rd round:
Jr Smith - 18/8/2 with 66%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Hawks best player - Teague 21/3/4 with 52%ts

2016 first round:
Kyrie - 28/2/5 with 59%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Pistons best player Drummond - 16/9/0 with 48%ts

2016 2nd round:
Kyrie - 21/2/6 with 62%ts PERFORMED BETTER
Love - 19/13/3 with 50%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Hawks best player millsap - 17/10/3 with 50%ts

2016 3rd round:
Kyrie - 24/3/5 with 56%ts EVEN
vs
Raptors best player derozan - 23/3/3 with 56%ts

2016 finals:
Kyrie - 27/4/4/2 with 56%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Warriors best player curry - 22/5/4 with 58%ts

2017 2nd round:
Kyrie - 22/3/9 with 50%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Raptors best player derozan - 20/4/4 with 51%ts

2017 3rd round:
Kyrie - 26/2/5 with 76%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Boston best player Bradley 19/4/2 with 48%ts

2018 2nd round:
Love - 21/12/2 with 59%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Raptors best player lowry - 18/3/9 with 73%ts

2020 1st round:
Davis - 30/9/4 with 66%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
blazers best player lillard - 24/3/4 with 61%ts

2020 2nd round:
Davis - 26/12/4 with 66%ts PERFORMED BETTER(defense included)
vs
rockets best player harden - 29/4/7 with 66%ts

2020 3rd round:
Davis - 31/6/3 with 67%ts PERFORMED BETTER
vs
Nuggets best player Murray - 25/4/7 with 63%ts

2020 finals:
Davis - 25/11/3 with 67%ts PERFORMED BETTER(defense included)
vs
Heat best player Butler - 26/8/9 with 65%ts

[MadDog]

hes the goat but this did happen. he's not infallible


https://youtu.be/b58glke4ZIQ

I'm also of the opinion Jordan wasn't rusty. Maybe with his decision making (this wouldn't happen to '90-93 Jordan) but not in the physical sense. He was great in the playoffs all things considered. Pippen though shot poorly in that series, while the Bulls needed more rebounding and better interior defense. Losing Grant and adding Rodman (who ironically nobody wanted) was a big deal.

[Johnny32]

duh bulls missed ho grant more than they did mj. lebron's teams completely fall apart without him. the true goat.

[Phoenix]

Exactly, he basically never outscored the opposing #1 option

That's pathetic because every other sidekick did so or matched their own team's #1 option (1b status) with higher peak scoring than Pippen's



So basically, its not enough that MJ be the best scorer. You also wanted him to have the extra competitive edge by having a sidekick who could score at the level of the opposing first option. And that's.......good from a competition standpoint?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FluffySparklingGuillemot-max-1mb.gif

[Johnny32]

1991 finals

pip - 20.8 ppg
magic - 18.6 ppg

like basically never, dude

[Phoenix]

I'm also of the opinion Jordan wasn't rusty. Maybe with his decision making (this wouldn't happen to '90-93 Jordan) but not in the physical sense. He was great in the playoffs all things considered. Pippen though shot poorly in that series, while the Bulls needed more rebounding and better interior defense. Losing Grant and adding Rodman (who ironically nobody wanted) was a big deal.

The Bulls likely beat the Magic in 95 with Grant on the team. MJ's game management wasn't peak, but his production generally was good enough. Like you said, the Bulls were done in on the frontline. You can't look down the barrel at a Shaq/Grant frontline with Toni Kukoc at the 4.

[HunterSThompson]

1991 finals

pip - 20.8 ppg
magic - 18.6 ppg

like basically never, dude

worthy 19.3ppg though

and divac also averaged 18ppg. it was balanced scoring at the top.


and 20ppg for a championship sidekick isn't really that much. and didn't jordan average like 10apg that finals. half of pippens buckets probly came off Jordan's feeds.

how do you explain pippens 96 and 98 finals numbers.


he was just OK offensively. pippens value was on the defensive side

[Johnny32]

1991 finals

pip - 20.8 ppg
magic - 18.6 ppg

like basically never, dude

or injured worthy.

19.3 ppg

LeBasicallyNever

[Johnny32]

worthy 19.3ppg though

and divac also averaged 18ppg. it was balanced scoring at the top.

Originally Posted by 3ba11 View Post
Exactly, he basically never outscored the opposing #1 option

except he did. so why are you quoting me?

[97 bulls]

So you're advocating Pippen should have outscored the opposing sidekick 24/24 times? So you wanted the Bulls to have

1) the best scorer
2) the best sidekick scorer
3) the best rebounder
4) the best 6th man
5) the best 3point specialist

Anything else? How about playing every game at Chicago Stadium or the United Center?

Lol. Maybe spot the Bulls 20 points

[MadDog]

So you're advocating Pippen should have outscored the opposing sidekick 24/24 times? So you wanted the Bulls to have

1) the best scorer
2) the best sidekick scorer
3) the best rebounder
4) the best 6th man
5) the best 3point specialist

Anything else? How about playing every game at Chicago Stadium or the United Center?

Depending on the year (and if shooting efficiency is important to you), that's debatable. Ditto with Kukoc being the "best" 6th man and Kerr being the "best" 3PT specialist. As far as 6th men go, guys like Cliff Robinson\Starks\Mason\Schrempf\Manning were all great in their own right. All of those guys won 6MOTY, too.

[Johnny32]

worthy 19.3ppg though

and divac also averaged 18ppg. it was balanced scoring at the top.


and 20ppg for a championship sidekick isn't really that much. and didn't jordan average like 10apg that finals. half of pippens buckets probly came off Jordan's feeds.

how do you explain pippens 96 and 98 finals numbers.


he was just OK offensively. pippens value was on the defensive side

lol you're a fkn clown. literally none of the bulls finals opp's had a sidekick average 20 ppg. pippen did it 4 times with all world defense and ran the offense.

[MadDog]

The Bulls likely beat the Magic in 95 with Grant on the team. MJ's game management wasn't peak, but his production generally was good enough. Like you said, the Bulls were done in on the frontline. You can't look down the barrel at a Shaq/Grant frontline with Toni Kukoc at the 4.

Yup, agreed. But I also think the Bulls beat Orlando with Worm.

[Phoenix]

Depending on the year (and if shooting efficiency is important to you), that's debatable. Ditto with Kukoc being the "best" 6th man and Kerr being the "best" 3PT specialist. As far as 6th men go, guys like Cliff Robinson\Starks\Mason\Schrempf\Manning were all great in their own right. All of those guys won 6MOTY, too.

Was thinking mostly of 96. Leading scorer, leading rebounder, 6th man of the year, the 2nd 3 point shooter by percentage, and coach of the year. That's reasonably close enough to what I was saying but not intended to be spread across every year they won. The main point I'm saying is, if the Bulls had the best player and scorer in MJ during their title run I'm not sure why 3ball would be advocating for Pippen to be an equal scorer to the first option on the other team. That's like saying it's not enough that MJ outscored Karl Malone, but Scottie also should have scored close to Mailman's level, while Mailman's 2nd options were scoring significantly less. I'm not sure why 3ball would advocate for such a scenario.

[97 bulls]

wait. so you don't think the Bulls won with defense and rebounding mostly and just relied on Jordan's 30 a game. he carried them offensively but I don't think offense is the entire reason why they won games. they always had great defenders everywhere with Grant, pippen, Jordan, Rodman, harper and others.

I don't believe Jordan "carried" the Bulls offensively. Jordan is the greatest offensive threat ever. And he was gonna take the lions share of the shots regardless. Look at the FG attempts on the Dream Team. He took as many shots as the next two players combined. The same with the Wizards.

[MadDog]

Was thinking mostly of 96. Leading scorer, leading rebounder, 6th man of the year, the 2nd 3 point shooter by percentage, and coach of the year. That's reasonably close enough to what I was saying but not intended to be spread across every year they won. The main point I'm saying is, if the Bulls had the best player and scorer in MJ during their title run I'm not sure why 3ball would be advocating for Pippen to be an equal scorer to the first option on the other team. That's like saying it's not enough that MJ outscored Karl Malone, but Scottie also should have scored close to Mailman's level, while Mailman's 2nd options were scoring significantly less. I'm not sure why 3ball would advocate for such a scenario.

If you were only referring to 96, then ya, based on the numbers it would be hard to argue. 3ball's expectations have always been ridiculous lol. I've debated with that guy long enough to know he purposefully ignores defense and playmaking. I think its a ruse by 3ball when he holds players to MJ's scoring level. When it comes to the all-around package (regular-season, playoffs & finals) nobody beats MJ. Absolutely no one.

[Johnny32]

If you were only referring to 96, then ya, based on the numbers it would be hard to argue. 3ball's expectations have always been ridiculous lol. I've debated with that guy long enough to know he purposefully ignores defense and playmaking. I think its a ruse by 3ball when he holds players to MJ's scoring level. When it comes to the all-around package (regular-season, playoffs & finals) nobody beats MJ. Absolutely no one.

no one shoots as much as jordan, absolutely no one. many score more efficiently though. like lebron and kd.

[MadDog]

no one shoots as much as jordan, absolutely no one. many score more efficiently though. like lebron and kd.

In the playoffs, Jordan averages 4 more points a game than LeBron. And shoots a percentage point less. Calling LeBron "more efficient" is incredibly retarded. But that's why you're you and I'm me. :confusedshrug:

[SATAN]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/9e2b161031622afd653b7f8904768dc8/tenor.gif

[SATAN]

https://piximus.net/media/27920/fun-facts-about-hippos-13.gif

[SATAN]

http://animated-gifs.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/hippopotamus-038.gif

[SATAN]

https://i.giphy.com/media/NjYr2VQvtLETm/giphy.webp

[SATAN]

https://i.giphy.com/media/d6KXqyzam7mH3kZvHF/200.gif

[SATAN]

https://media.tenor.com/images/9f384531770b380712d815ef605c660d/tenor.gif

[SATAN]

https://media.tenor.co/images/9340457a232e0efef36074df8c560234/tenor.gif

[SATAN]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LargeSourJapanesebeetle-size_restricted.gif

[Phoenix]

If you were only referring to 96, then ya, based on the numbers it would be hard to argue. 3ball's expectations have always been ridiculous lol. I've debated with that guy long enough to know he purposefully ignores defense and playmaking. I think its a ruse by 3ball when he holds players to MJ's scoring level. When it comes to the all-around package (regular-season, playoffs & finals) nobody beats MJ. Absolutely no one.

It's a really stupid position on his part, because the whole premise behind his 'MJ is GOAT' argument is the scoring loads he had to carry enroute to championships. Advocating for Pippen to be capable of scoring at the opposing first option's level undermines his own argument, and in a roundabout way also advocates for Chicago having easier roads to their titles, again undermining his argument. That, or he seems to think that Scottie should outscore the 2nd option in every series during their run which is a ridiculous expectation. We get it... 2nd 3peat Scottie didn't blow your socks off offensively, but since the Bulls went 3/3 on rings with 72 and 69 win seasons they couldn't have been more successful in that situation other than winning with greater ease as a result of better scoring from Pippen.

[SATAN]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-22-2018/LxTSNm.gif

[SATAN]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DeadlyWaryGar-max-1mb.gif

[Johnny32]

In the playoffs, Jordan averages 4 more points a game than LeBron. And shoots a percentage point less. Calling LeBron "more efficient" is incredibly retarded. But that's why you're you and I'm me. :confusedshrug:

hurrr, 4 more ppg on 5 more shots per game, durrr.

[MadDog]

hurrr, 4 more ppg on 5 more shots per game, durrr.

This dumbfukk thinks LeBron could average 4 more points a game....in the playoffs....and maintain equal efficiency. :oldlol: Eat another crayon.

[Johnny32]

reg season

mj - 30 ppg on 22.9 fga and 8.2 fta, 56.9 ts%
kd - 27.1 ppg on 18.7 fga and 7.6 fta, 61.5 ts%
lbj - 27.0 ppg on 19.6 fga and 7.8 fta, 58.7 ts%

postseason

mj - 33.4 ppg on 25.1 fga and 9.9 fta, 56.8 ts%
kd - 29.5 ppg on 20.9 fga and 8.4 fta, 60.0 ts%
lbj - 28.7 ppg on 20.7 fga and 8.9 fta, 58.3 ts%

like i said...no one shoots as much as jordan...but many including lebron and kd score more efficiently.

now get mad, again.

[Johnny32]

This dumbfukk thinks LeBron could average 4 more points a game....in the playoffs....and maintain equal efficiency. :oldlol: Eat another crayon.

fun fact: leefficient averages 1.38 points per shot for his career.

now go lick another window, tardboy.

[SATAN]

MadDumb getting annihilated :lol

[MadDog]

fun fact: leefficient averages 1.38 points per shot for his career.

now go lick another window, tardboy.

Hey bird brain. LeBron has to take more shots to average 4 more points a game. Likely a lot of shots. He isn't doing that on equal shooting efficiency. Again, Jordan averages 4 more points a game on one less percentage point.

Jordan's both the more efficient player (PER) and scorer.


MadDumb getting annihilated :lol

Cheerleading like a bitch lol. No surprise there. Both of you wear helmets.

[SATAN]

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/01/lemon-crying.gif

:oldlol:

[Johnny32]

:oldlol:

lol it's embarrassing.

[Johnny32]

what would lebron's playoff scoring look like if his role was to score first, guard the opponents 2nd/3rd best perimeter player second and pass/rebound occasionally? i can't even imagine.

[MadDog]

All "satan" is good for is spamming gifs and smilies. What a useless piece of shit lol. Even though he got yammed on, at least "johnny" attempted to debate. If yall want another reason why MJ>LeBron just lmk :confusedshrug:

[SATAN]

All "satan" is good for is posting gifs and memes. What a useless piece of shit lol. Even though he got yammed on, at least "johnny" attempted to debate. If yall want another reason why MJ>LeBron just lmk :confusedshrug:

You lost the "debate". Your talking points are garbage. Get over it.

[Johnny32]

Hey bird brain. LeBron has to take more shots to average 4 more points a game. Likely a lot of shots. He isn't doing that on equal shooting efficiency. Again, Jordan averages 4 more points a game on one less percentage point.

Jordan's both the more efficient player (PER) and scorer.



Cheerleading like a bitch lol. No surprise there. Both of you wear helmets.

1.38 pps for his career in the regular season, 1.39 pps in the playoffs. likely not.

[MadDog]

You lost the "debate". Your talking points are garbage. Get over it.

Another useless post. You lost derp... [insert gif] Make a substantive post, bitch.

[MadDog]

1.38 pps for his career in the regular season, 1.39 pps in the playoffs. likely not.

The more attempts taken, the likelier your percentages drop. For high volume scorers that is ALWAYS the case. Averaging 4 more points a game isn't happening without A) taking more field goals & B)missing more. Again, common knowledge.

[SATAN]

Another useless post. You lost derp... [insert gif] Make a substantive post, bitch.

There's nothing to say. You've been schooled and don't even realize it. The argument you're trying to make is ridiculous. You already lost.

The End.

[Baller789]

All "satan" is good for is spamming gifs and smilies. What a useless piece of shit lol. Even though he got yammed on, at least "johnny" attempted to debate. If yall want another reason why MJ>LeBron just lmk :confusedshrug:
Facts.

Satan is a weak debater. Also gets triggered pretty easily.

[Johnny32]

The more attempts taken, the likelier your percentages drop. For high volume scorers that is ALWAYS the case. Averaging 4 more points a game isn't happening without A) taking more field goals & B)missing more. Again, common knowledge.

for high volume shooters who settle too often for midrange jumpers, sure. for the best driver and finisher at the rim in nba history, unlikely.

[MadDog]

There's nothing to say. You've been schooled and don't even realize it. The argument you're trying to make is ridiculous. You already lost.

The End.

There's always something to say. Its an opinionated basketball debate. If you can't hang then don't comment. Or feel free to point out where I've been "schooled". :confusedshrug: Everything I posted was backed by logic and facts.

Jordan is in fact the more efficient player. Jordan is in fact the more efficient playoff scorer. What's more, averaging more shot attempts and using that against him is dumb. LeBron isn't shooting more and matching Jordan in points without losing efficiency. Assuming LeBron would "equal" Jordan by taking the same amount of shots is conjecture, period.

[MadDog]

for high volume shooters who settle too often for midrange jumpers, sure. for the best driver and finisher at the rim in nba history, unlikely.

LeBron takes more threes though. He also can't create like Jordan could in-between. I could see LeBron upping his attempts, but his all-around numbers would all take a dip. Just like his efficiency would.

[SATAN]

Why are you having an argument based on an unverifiable assumption? It's completely stupid.

[Johnny32]

LeBron takes more threes though. He also can't create like Jordan could in-between. I could see LeBron upping his attempts, but his all-around numbers would all take a dip. Just like efficiency would.

3pters and at the rim are the most efficient shots in basketball.

[MadDog]

Why are you having an argument based on an unverifiable assumption? It's completely stupid.

I claimed Jordan was a more efficient scorer and player. That isn't an assumption. Its backed by numbers. Someone suggesting that LeBron would average the same points if he shot more is speculation. Or an "unverifiable" assumption.

Up your comprehension.

[MadDog]

3pters and at the rim are the most efficient shots in basketball.

In theory. Having a reliable midrange can be just as important. Lanes clog with playoff defenses.

[Johnny32]

I claimed Jordan was a more efficient scorer and player. That isn't an assumption. Its backed by numbers. Someone suggesting that LeBron would average the same points if he
shot more is speculation. Or an "unverifiable" assumption.

lol you're in denial. i already proved kd and lebron both score more efficiently.

[MadDog]

lol you're in denial. i already proved kd and lebron both score more efficiently.

You "proved" that LeBron scores less than Jordan in the playoffs. By 4pts and on a +1% clip. That isnt "more efficient", and using attempts to suggest he COULD score the same is conjecture. Educate yourself.

[Johnny32]

lol this is embarrassing. lebron has a higher fg%, efg%, ts% and averages more points per shot. in the regular season and playoffs. he scores more efficiently. as does kd.

[SATAN]

lol this is embarrassing. lebron has a higher fg%, efg%, ts% and averages more points per shot. in the regular season and playoffs. he scores more efficiently. as does kd.

"Yes but if (insert unverifiable assumption here) then (insert more bs) so MJ is more efficient"

:lol

[MadDog]

Where did you find Jordan's PPS?


lol this is embarrassing. lebron has a higher fg%, efg%, ts% and averages more points per shot. in the regular season and playoffs. he scores more efficiently. as does kd.

In the playoffs, Jordan averages 33 points per game on 57%TS compared to LeBron's 29 on 58%TS. Just like FG%, Jordan averages 1 less percentage point in TS but scores 4 more points. Jordan's Player Efficiency Rating is also superior. LeBron isn't more efficient, chief.

[SATAN]

:facepalm

[Johnny32]

Where did you find Jordan's PPS?



In the playoffs, Jordan averages 33 points per game on 57%TS compared to LeBron's 29 on 58%TS. Just like FG%, Jordan averages 1 less percentage point in TS but scores 4 more points. Jordan's Player Efficiency Rating is also superior. LeBron isn't more efficient, chief.

i divided total points by total shots. i can't rem the math to do points per possession but i think it's really close actually so i didn't look it up lol.

[MadDog]

"Yes but if (insert unverifiable assumption here) then (insert more bs) so MJ is more efficient"

:lol

He assumes LeBron would have EQUAL efficiency with 4 more points a game. Basically the difference between a 25 and 30ppg scorer. Yet I'm the one assuming? You're ass backwards dummy lol

[Johnny32]

pps doesn't factor in fta as a shot is why points per possession is better. anyway, i gotta go.

[MadDog]

pps doesn't factor in fta as a shot is why points per possession is better. anyway, i gotta go.

Well you originally posted PPS to make your argument. :confusedshrug: Either way, I don't know how it changes MJ being more efficient. 4 more points on one less percentage point is a massive gap. Then there's overall efficiency aka PER.

When you have legit criteria, feel free to post it.

[Spurs m8]

In the playoffs, Jordan averages 4 more points a game than LeBron. And shoots a percentage point less. Calling LeBron "more efficient" is incredibly retarded. But that's why you're you and I'm me. :confusedshrug:

:roll:

[Johnny32]

Well you originally posted PPS to make your argument. :confusedshrug: Either way, I don't know how it changes MJ being more efficient. 4 more points on one less percentage point is a massive gap. Then there's overall efficiency aka PER.

When you have legit criteria, feel free to post it.

you didn't even understand how to calculate points per shot lol and now you're posting about per? which is far more than just scoring btw and flawed anyway. i was actually starting to feel bad for you is why i made those last two posts.

[Baller789]

Its basically common knowledge that one's efficiency generally drops the more shots you take outside your "capability".

Dunno what Johnnyboi is harping about :confusedshrug:

[Johnny32]

But that's why you're you and I'm me. :confusedshrug:

oh and indeed.

[Johnny32]

Its basically common knowledge that one's efficiency generally drops the more shots you take outside your "capability".

Dunno what Johnnyboi is harping about :confusedshrug:

already discussed. pretend you understand my game elsewhere.

[MadDog]

you didn't even understand how to calculate points per shot lol and now you're posting about per? which is far more than just scoring btw and flawed anyway. i was actually starting to feel bad for you is why i made those last two posts.

I asked where you found his PPS, not how to calculate it, nerd :oldlol: A trained monkey can add totals and divide, but you couldn't even do that right. I PER was used to talk about overall efficiency. Jordan is superior in both player and shooting efficiency.

Comprende? Are do I need to talk in tongues?

[Johnny32]

remember when lebron was 2000 points ahead of mj in points scored but still had less missed shots? me too! it's almost like they don't even know what scoring efficiency is.

[Johnny32]

I asked where you found his PPS, not how to calculate it, nerd :oldlol: A trained monkey can add totals and divide, but you couldn't even do that right. I PER was used to talk about overall efficiency. Jordan is superior in both player and shooting efficiency.

Comprende? Are do I need to talk in tongues?

i don't believe you.

[MadDog]

Its basically common knowledge that one's efficiency generally drops the more shots you take outside your "capability".

Dunno what Johnnyboi is harping about :confusedshrug:

Common sense doesn't seem to register. Poor guy.

[Johnny32]

notice how the weaker posters always need backup. dumb and dumber better get a third in here.

[MadDog]

i don't believe you.

What do you mean you don't believe me? A page ago, I asked you where to find his PPS, moron. Not gonna waste time calculating totals. Something you did and STILL got wrong lol

[HoopsNY]

Well you originally posted PPS to make your argument. :confusedshrug: Either way, I don't know how it changes MJ being more efficient. 4 more points on one less percentage point is a massive gap. Then there's overall efficiency aka PER.

When you have legit criteria, feel free to post it.

One thing that has to be considered is that the game became much more relaxed and teams were willing to trade shots more so than before 2015.

LeBron's Playoffs FG% from 2006-2015: 47%
LeBron's Playoffs FG% from 2016-2021: 54%

It's generally agreed upon that LeBron's peak play is between 2009-2014. So what happened from 2015-2021? Was he just a better shooter or was the game just played differently. The proof is in the pudding.

This doesn't mean that I think his efficiency would tank if the game resembled the way it did his first 11 years in the league, but there is something to be said about his efficiency during that stretch, and I think it has more to do with the way the game evolved than his actual skill.

[Johnny32]

math is hard

yeah i know. maybe ask mommy next time.

[MadDog]

remember when lebron was 2000 points ahead of mj in points scored but still had less missed shots? me too! it's almost like they don't even know what scoring efficiency is.

LeBron averages 4 less points in the playoffs. And only shoots 1% TS higher. Numbers definitely aren't your strong suit. To be fair though, neither is basketball. :lol

[Johnny32]

One thing that has to be considered is that the game became much more relaxed and teams were willing to trade shots more so than before 2015.

LeBron's Playoffs FG% from 2006-2015: 47%
*LeBron's Playoffs FG% from 2016-2021: 54%*

It's generally agreed upon that LeBron's peak play is between 2009-2014. So what happened from 2015-2021? Was he just a better shooter or was the game just played differently. The proof is in the pudding.

This doesn't mean that I think his efficiency would tank if the game resembled the way it did his first 11 years in the league, but there is something to be said about his efficiency during that stretch, and I think it has more to do with the way the game evolved than his actual skill.

lebron's outside shot is clearly more reliable now. he was streaky when he still had top 1 all time athletic ability.

[SATAN]

MadDog getting owned.

[SATAN]

lebron's outside shot is clearly more reliable now. he was streaky when he still had top 1 all time athletic ability.

Not just his outside shot, his mid-range is better too.

[tpols]

Hey bird brain. LeBron has to take more shots to average 4 more points a game. Likely a lot of shots. He isn't doing that on equal shooting efficiency. Again, Jordan averages 4 more points a game on one less percentage point.

Jordan's both the more efficient player (PER) and scorer.



Cheerleading like a bitch lol. No surprise there. Both of you wear helmets.


Coach you've grown ruthless over the years. :roll:

Those guys you're arguing with are RRR3. I've never seen a coward hide behind so many alts.

[Johnny32]

Not just his outside shot, his mid-range is better too.

yeah i was referring to all perimeter shots in general.

[SATAN]

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/01/lemon-crying.gif

:lol

[Johnny32]

LeBron averages 4 less points in the playoffs. And only shoots 1% TS higher. Numbers definitely aren't your strong suit. To be fair though, neither is basketball. :lol

says the guy who needed help calculating points per shot lol. you wanted to check the stats i posted but didn't know how to do the 3rd grade math. you're fooling no one.

[MadDog]

One thing that has to be considered is that the game became much more relaxed and teams were willing to trade shots more so than before 2015.

LeBron's Playoffs FG% from 2006-2015: 47%
LeBron's Playoffs FG% from 2016-2021: 54%

It's generally agreed upon that LeBron's peak play is between 2009-2014. So what happened from 2015-2021? Was he just a better shooter or was the game just played differently. The proof is in the pudding.

This doesn't mean that I think his efficiency would tank if the game resembled the way it did his first 11 years in the league, but there is something to be said about his efficiency during that stretch, and I think it has more to do with the way the game evolved than his actual skill.

Great post. I think its obvious the rules have played a role. Especially now with the super lax "freedom of movement" bullshit. Rules similar to the mid-late 00s, and both LeBron's scoring and shooting would have nosedived.

[Baller789]

notice how the weaker posters always need backup. dumb and dumber better get a third in here.

You mean what Lebrontards do?

Shut it down.
Got that ar$3
Wrap it up bois!

Can't make this $h!t up!

[MadDog]

MadDog getting owned.

Holy fukk this poster is an absolute joke lol. Literally pops into threads saying nothing. Go jerkoff on a pentagram, dullard.

[SATAN]

Holy fukk this poster is an absolute joke lol. Literally pops into threads saying nothing. Go jerkoff on a pentagram, dullard.

Meltdown.

[MadDog]

says the guy who needed help calculating points per shot lol. you wanted to check the stats i posted but didn't know how to do the 3rd grade math. you're fooling no one.

More lies. I asked you where to find the stat, and your dumbass went on to calculate it. Incorrectly... lol. When you're ready to make a case for LeBron, go for it. Just use the correct numbers, k? :oldlol:


Those guys you're arguing with are RRR3..

You can't be serious? They're the same guy? lmfao

[Johnny32]

Great post. I think its obvious the rules have played a role. Especially now with the super lax "freedom of movement" bullshit. Rules similar to the mid-late 00s, and both LeBron's scoring and shooting would have nosedived.

it was easier to score in the 80s than at anytime in nba history. the defense, especially transition defense, was absolutely putrid. notice how mj never shot above 50% again after 1992.

[Johnny32]

we could also compare shooting percentages to the league average.

warning: lebron wins again.

[HoopsNY]

lebron's outside shot is clearly more reliable now. he was streaky when he still had top 1 all time athletic ability.

Yes that is true, which speaks to the evolution of the game. The league in general has improved in that department, not just LeBron. I say that to say this, if MJ is in a league where that becomes emphasized, then it's only natural that he would improve in that arena as well.

The comparison of efficiency without contextualizing the entire picture doesn't explain everything. I do admit, though, that one must factor in the shortened 3 point line. It is for and against teams in the playoffs. For them in the sense that you have a shorter line, therefore making the shot easier on the perimeter. But it's also against teams in that defenses were able to close out much easier and more quickly on a shooter.

But one thing that you're also leaving out is that scoring in general is easier. Just look at LeBron's entire spread from 0-3 ft, 3-10 ft, and 10-16 ft in the same time frame:

PS '06-'15: 72% | 38% | 35%
PS '16-'21: 77% | 41% | 38%

All three distances are higher. Anyone who says this version of LeBron is a better scorer than peak LeBron is simply lying to themselves. The fact is, his playoff efficiency is skewed, because he's simply not a better scorer now than he was during his peak/prime, even though the numbers may indicate otherwise.

[Johnny32]

More lies. I asked you where to find the stat, and your dumbass went on to calculate it. Incorrectly... lol. When you're ready to make a case for LeBron, go for it. Just use the correct numbers, k? :oldlol:



You can't be serious? They're the same guy? lmfao

remember when you tried to pass off per as a stat that measures scoring efficiency because you were so desperate? that was funny.

[MadDog]

it was easier to score in the 80s than at anytime in nba history. the defense, especially transition defense, was absolutely putrid. notice how mj never shot above 50% again after 1992.

Not in the 90s. Defensive efficiency was better than it is today. Statistically, the late 90s and early 00s are the greatest defensive era in history.

Class is in session.

[MadDog]

remember when you tried to pass off per as a stat that measures scoring efficiency because you were so desperate? that was funny.

No, because I literally never did that. :confusedshrug: I actually said PER = overall efficiency. Try again, tiny dancer.

[Johnny32]

we could also compare shooting percentages to the league average.

warning: lebron wins again.

no one? didn't think so.

[SATAN]

MadDog trying to move the goal posts.

[Johnny32]

Not in the 90s. Defensive efficiency was better than it is today. Statistically, the late 90s and early 00s are the greatest defensive era in history.

Class is in session.

i was referring to the 80s. go back to class and take reading comprehension.

[MadDog]

i was referring to the 80s. go back to class and take reading comprehension.

And? Most of Jordan's prime was in the 90s. I'm skull fukking you rn lol

[Axe]

And? Most of Jordan's prime was in the 90s. I'm skull fukking you rn lol
Oh the 90s

Which they said to be the weak and watered-down era rofl

[kawhileonard2]

hes the goat but this did happen. he's not infallible


https://youtu.be/b58glke4ZIQ

He also was the lower seed as well and it was against Prime Shaq.

[Johnny32]

And? Most of Jordan's prime was in the 90s. I'm skull fukking you rn lol

i was doing the same with mj's percentages that the other poster did to lebron's. mj shot 50+ percent once in the playoffs in the 90s. he did it 4 times in the 80s. does everything go over your head?

[RRR3]

More lies. I asked you where to find the stat, and your dumbass went on to calculate it. Incorrectly... lol. When you're ready to make a case for LeBron, go for it. Just use the correct numbers, k? :oldlol:



You can't be serious? They're the same guy? lmfao
No, they're not me. Ttrolls is retarded, I've always been open with my accounts on here and I literally posted a screenshot of all my accounts the other day from the login menu. If I felt like arguing with you I'd do it.

[SATAN]

No, they're not me. Ttrolls is retarded, I've always been open with my accounts on here and I literally posted a screenshot of all my accounts the other day from the login menu. If I felt like arguing with you I'd do it.

[RRR3]

No, they're not me. Ttrolls is retarded, I've always been open with my accounts on here and I literally posted a screenshot of all my accounts the other day from the login menu. If I felt like arguing with you I'd do it.
Shut the **** up. Do this again and you're going on ignore. It's not funny.

[Johnny32]

in case you're wondering...lebron shot 50% in 4 postseasons pre 2015 and 4 postseasons post 2015.

[Johnny32]

back to scoring efficiency.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wYjXIfjsTz6DDJAd6O3X35imvpYU-CRkbs9b8JFAH9ii-WPKlH72oqDEZWi_aMhq1GIHO5laThQ63GqypcdbH_y2DePS3Vo iO9YoK9kJcQ

but muh nostalgia.

[SATAN]

MadDog sweating profusely.

[MadDog]

i was doing the same with mj's percentages that the other poster did to lebron's. mj shot 50+ percent once in the playoffs in the 90s. he did it 4 times in the 80s. does everything go over your head?

Idgaf what you and that poster were arguing. You quoted me and claimed it was easier to score in the 80s. No shit. Again, though, most of Jordan's prime was in the 90s. HoopsNY included LeBron years going all the way up until 2015. With the exception of maybe 2 seasons, those were ALL years LeBron was in his prime. Jordan primed maybe 2 years in the 80s. 3 tops.

Your argument is absolutely terrible. Same with your math "skillz" dweeb lol.

[SATAN]

kOkak

[MadDog]

No, they're not me. Ttrolls is retarded, I've always been open with my accounts on here and I literally posted a screenshot of all my accounts the other day from the login menu. If I felt like arguing with you I'd do it.

Fair enough. Why is that weirdo copying ur posts though lol

[Johnny32]

Great post. I think its obvious the rules have played a role. Especially now with the super lax "freedom of movement" bullshit. Rules similar to the mid-late 00s, and both LeBron's scoring and shooting would have nosedived.

hurrr, because you quoted him, durrr. the point was it was also easier to score in the 80s.

[MadDog]

hurrr, because you quoted him, durrr. the point was it was also easier to score in the 80s.

Are you illiterate? In that post I quoted, the guy never mentioned 80s ball. I agreed with his take on LeBron. That was it. Keep trying to conflate arguments though. That's when I know you're squirming lol

[RRR3]

Fair enough. Why is that weirdo copying ur posts though lol
He thinks it’s funny cause people accused us of being the same poster. I make a lot of right wingers super mad and they’re always trying to come up with conspiracy theories about my alts even tho I showed what accounts are mine already (this is the only one in use atm. Others were gimmick accounts. Signing Freud, Elmer Fudd and Cashew24).

[Johnny32]

fun fact: lebron has shot 50+ percent in 11 of the last 13 seasons. the only seasons he didn't was 2015 (back issue all season used a booster seat on bench for posture) and 2020 (shortened season...was at 49.3...probably hits 50% the way he closes reg seasons)

hurrr, it's cuz of the 3pt era now being easier to score, durrr.

[Johnny32]

Are you illiterate? In that post I quoted, the guy never mentioned 80s ball. I agreed with his take on LeBron. That was it. Keep trying to conflate arguments though. That's when I know you're squirming lol

you are simple as fk lol.

[Johnny32]

lol dude's trying to count lebron's prime starting at 21 and mj's like 26 to desperately try to win an argument he lost 3 hrs ago.

[SATAN]

lol dude's trying to count lebron's prime starting at 21 and mj's like 26 to desperately try to win an argument he lost 3 hrs ago.

:oldlol:

[TheGoatest]

back to scoring efficiency.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wYjXIfjsTz6DDJAd6O3X35imvpYU-CRkbs9b8JFAH9ii-WPKlH72oqDEZWi_aMhq1GIHO5laThQ63GqypcdbH_y2DePS3Vo iO9YoK9kJcQ

but muh nostalgia.

:oldlol:

Damn.
Destroyed.

[RRR3]

This is kind of a silly argument btw. We don’t know what LeBron’s scoring efficiency would be if he played more like MJ. You should also compare relative efficiency not just compare efficiency between eras without context.

[Johnny32]

This is kind of a silly argument btw. We don’t know what LeBron’s scoring efficiency would be if he played more like MJ. You should also compare relative efficiency not just compare efficiency between eras without context.

you mean if he didn't have to be the main playmaker and rebounder for his championship teams and got to focus all his efforts on scoring? i can't even imagine what his numbers would look like. maybe 35/40 ppg on 70 ts%.

[MadDog]

lol dude's trying to count lebron's prime starting at 21 and mj's like 26 to desperately try to win an argument he lost 3 hrs ago.

You stay confused :lol Again, most of Jordan's prime was in the 90s. Most of those years that poster highlighted were LeBron's prime. Stop whining bitch :oldlol:


This is kind of a silly argument btw. We don’t know what LeBron’s scoring efficiency would be if he played more like MJ. You should also compare relative efficiency not just compare efficiency between eras without context.

Judging by what we know, who do you think is A) the more efficient scorer and B) overall the more efficient player?

[Baller789]

you mean if he didn't have to be the main playmaker and rebounder for his championship teams and got to focus all his efforts on scoring? i can't even imagine what his numbers would look like. maybe 35/40 ppg on 70 ts%.

Because?

[Johnny32]

HoopsNY included LeBron years going all the way up until 2015. With the exception of maybe 2 seasons, those were ALL years LeBron was in his prime. Jordan primed maybe 2 years in the 80s. 3 tops.

lebron was 21 at the start of his third season...his "prime" according to you. mj was 21 as a rookie so will call the entire 80s his prime.

leouchie.

[MadDog]

.

HoopsNY included LeBron years going all the way up until 2015. With the exception of maybe 2 seasons, those were ALL years LeBron was in his prime. Jordan primed maybe 2 years in the 80s. 3 tops.

lebron was 21 at the start of his third season...his "prime" according to you. mj was 21 as a rookie so will call the entire 80s his prime.

leouchie.

And in that post, I clearly said with the exception of 2 seasons. Which would be around 2008 or 2009. Learn how to read, dumbfukk lol

[Johnny32]

[QUOTE=Johnny32;14513993]

And in that post, I clearly said with the exception of 2 seasons. Learn how to read, dumbfukk lol

hurrr, 3rd season lebron is the same age as rookie jordan, durrr

you want to claim lebron's prime was year 3 (it wasn't) i'll claim all players primes start at the same age.

[RRR3]

You stay confused :lol Again, most of Jordan's prime was in the 90s. Most of those years that poster highlighted were LeBron's prime. Stop whining bitch :oldlol:



Judging by what we know, who do you think is A) the more efficient scorer and B) overall the more efficient player?
I’m not sure what more efficient player overall means exactly. Is that including turnovers too? I don’t know who’s more efficient relative to era I would have to examine the data and I’m lazy lol. I imagine they’re similar enough. LeBron is better from the floor but MJ’s advantage at the line can’t be ignored. Also everyone is guarded differently. It’s really weird to me people think some of these accounts are mine because I legit never shit on MJ unless I’m mocking 3ball or someone like him. I would say MJ was a better scorer relative to era, he’s got a great case for GOAT scorer. LeBron is underrated as a scorer though.

[Baller789]

[QUOTE=MadDog;14513994]

hurrr, 3rd season lebron is the same age as rookie jordan, durrr

you want to claim lebron's prime was year 3 (it wasn't) i'll claim all players primes start at the same age.


:roll:

[Johnny32]

this guy isn't working with a full deck here. i have to explain everything to him.

[MadDog]

hurrr, 3rd season lebron is the same age as rookie jordan, durrr

you want to claim lebron's prime was year 3 (it wasn't) i'll claim all players primes start at the same age.

Breathe moron. Like...are you going to ignore what I actually said? :confusedshrug: We can all twist words to make an argument. But the reality is nowhere did I say LeBron began his prime at 21. Even left a caveat and gave you fanboys 2 extra years. Which would be 2008-2009.

Read and weep lol

[Johnny32]

i don't even know where he's going with this. his argument seems to be prime mj couldn't shoot 50% from the field in the majority of the 90s. fair enough. i pointed that out myself.

[Johnny32]

jordan must have had the shortest prime of all time. none of the 80s count and from 96-98 he was a low percentage chucker who hid on the opposing teams third best perimeter player on the other end most nights. that's your goat?

[MadDog]

I’m not sure what more efficient player overall means exactly. Is that including turnovers too? I don’t know who’s more efficient relative to era I would have to examine the data and I’m lazy lol. I imagine they’re similar enough. LeBron is better from the floor but MJ’s advantage at the line can’t be ignored. Also everyone is guarded differently. It’s really weird to me people think some of these accounts are mine because I legit never shit on MJ unless I’m mocking 3ball or someone like him. I would say MJ was a better scorer relative to era, he’s got a great case for GOAT scorer. LeBron is underrated as a scorer though.

More efficient player = total efficiency. The complete box score. PER says its Jordan, and we know that it adjusts per 100 possessions. LeBron might have the edge from the floor cuz of the three point influx, but as you said, freethrows play a role. Its less efficient than threes and layups, but in the playoffs, when teams pack the paint, a midrange can be incredibly useful. And efficient. IIRC, Jordan had playoff runs shooting 50% in-between. I know for a fact that he did in 91 (someone actually posted the numbers here and referenced the games).

And yeah, its crazy to think people stoop that low. The doofus clearly wants to "expose" you, which means that account is a throwaway lol.

[Johnny32]

no one shoots as much as jordan, absolutely no one. many score more efficiently though. like lebron and kd.


In the playoffs, Jordan averages 4 more points a game than LeBron. And shoots a percentage point less. Calling LeBron "more efficient" is incredibly retarded. But that's why you're you and I'm me. :confusedshrug:

nice try but the argument was scoring efficiency, clownboy.

[MadDog]

i don't even know where he's going with this. his argument seems to be prime mj couldn't shoot 50% from the field in the majority of the 90s. fair enough. i pointed that out myself.

I think LeBron began his prime in the 2008-2009 season. As do most of his fans. Most people think Jordan played 70% of his prime in the 90s - half of that decade saw the greatest defenses. As per defensive metrics.

That clear things up, chief? :confusedshrug:

[MadDog]

nice try but the argument was scoring efficiency, clownboy.

I added total efficiency after proving Jordan was the more efficient scorer.

Back to basics, Johnny.

[Johnny32]

I think LeBron began his prime in the 2008-2009 season. As do most of his fans. Most people think Jordan played 70% of his prime in the 90s - half of that decade saw the greatest defenses. As per defensive metrics.

That clear things up, chief? :confusedshrug:

people are stupid. you've proven that over and over itt.

[Johnny32]

i desperately tried to changed the argument because you shit down my throat with facts and stats.

yeah i know...it was embarrassing.

[Johnny32]

back to scoring efficiency.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wYjXIfjsTz6DDJAd6O3X35imvpYU-CRkbs9b8JFAH9ii-WPKlH72oqDEZWi_aMhq1GIHO5laThQ63GqypcdbH_y2DePS3Vo iO9YoK9kJcQ

but muh nostalgia.

hurrr, BuT mY JoRdOnE sCoReS mOrE eFfIcIeNtLy, durrr

[MadDog]

Why are you changing my posts around? That help you cope from getting rag dolled?

You're down bad, Johnny lol. In the meantime, though, you can watch me prove Jordan was the more efficient player. Over and over again - and there's nothing you can do about it. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

More efficient player = total efficiency. The complete box score. PER says its Jordan, and we know that it adjusts per 100 possessions. LeBron might have the edge from the floor cuz of the three point influx, but as you said, freethrows play a role. Its less efficient than threes and layups, but in the playoffs, when teams pack the paint, a midrange can be incredibly useful. And efficient. IIRC, Jordan had playoff runs shooting 50% in-between. I know for a fact that he did in 91 (someone actually posted the numbers here and referenced the games).

And yeah, its crazy to think people stoop that low. The doofus clearly wants to "expose" you, which means that account is a throwaway lol.
PER is just an amalgamation of box score stats I wouldn’t say it is a measure of efficiency per se. TS% is commonly accepted as the best way to measure scoring efficiency and for players in different eras it would be relative TS%. Offensive rating measures efficiency but it’s really silly to use that for individual players because it ranks guys like Tyson Chandler overly high because they are very efficient with their possessions (unsurprisingly as they just dunk).

[Johnny32]

you should probably delete your account out of embarrassment. i mean you're desperate asking for other posters opinions frantically hoping someone more equipped than you will step up. it's sad and i almost feel bad.

[MadDog]

PER is just an amalgamation of box score stats I wouldn’t say it is a measure of efficiency per se. TS% is commonly accepted as the best way to measure scoring efficiency and for players in different eras it would be relative TS%. Offensive rating measures efficiency but it’s really silly to use that for individual players because it ranks guys like Tyson Chandler overly high because they are very efficient with their possessions (unsurprisingly as they just dunk).

Sure, but Hollinger literally says it measures total efficiency. I don't think its the end all be all, however it does in fact calculate box-score efficiency. I agree that TS is the best tool for scoring efficiency. That it also should be contextualized with eras, e.g. rTS.

The idiot who I'm debating with doesn't seem to grasp that. *Waits for more career totals*

[MadDog]

you should probably delete your account out of embarrassment. i mean you're desperate asking for other posters opinions frantically hoping someone more equipped than you will step up. it's sad and i almost feel bad.

You literally quote my posts and then fabricate them. Go on though. Elaborate more on being "desperate" lol. While you're at it, tell us how 29 on 58%TS is more efficient than 33 on 57%TS. Hurry! :oldlol:

[Johnny32]

what happened to fg% clownboy lol? you posted about it for three pages despite me posting ts%. now you want to use it? you're so embarrassing lol.

[SATAN]

MadDog lost this "debate" several pages ago.

[MadDog]

what happened to fg% clownboy lol? you posted about it for three pages despite me posting ts%. now you want to use it? you're so embarrassing lol.

Literally never happened. I've used both FG and TS% consistently. In both cases, though, LeBron averages 4 less points and shoots 1% higher.

I'm cooking you bitch. Kneel lol

[kawhileonard2]

back to scoring efficiency.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wYjXIfjsTz6DDJAd6O3X35imvpYU-CRkbs9b8JFAH9ii-WPKlH72oqDEZWi_aMhq1GIHO5laThQ63GqypcdbH_y2DePS3Vo iO9YoK9kJcQ

but muh nostalgia.

Lebron has 2 bronze medals despite playing with Tim Duncan and lost with HCA 3x while MJ has no bronze medals and never lost with HCA. Lebron got 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him due to suspension while MJ turned an organization that never won into a dynasty.

[RRR3]

Sure, but Hollinger literally says it measures total efficiency. I don't think its the end all be all, however it does in fact calculate box-score efficiency. I agree that TS is the best tool for scoring efficiency. That it also should be contextualized with eras, e.g. rTS.

The idiot who I'm debating with doesn't seem to grasp that. *Waits for more career totals*
I just don’t like PER, it’s a bad stat IMO. Any stat that rates Hassan Whiteside as an all time great is suspicious. Impact stats are generally the best but you have to just contextualize them of course. They measure how good players are at their roles in terms of impact, not necessarily how good a player is in a vacuum.

[Johnny32]

more on ts%. lebron has shot 57% or higher for 14 seasons straight (counting this season). mj managed this once after 92. jordan padded his percentages in the no defense 80s and then turned into a chucker in the 90s.

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron has 2 bronze medals despite playing with Tim Duncan and lost with HCA 3x while MJ has no bronze medals and never lost with HCA. Lebron got 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him due to suspension while MJ turned an organization that never won into a dynasty.

[SATAN]

more on ts%. lebron has shot 57% or higher for 14 seasons straight (counting this season). mj managed this once after 92. jordan padded his percentages in the no defense 80s and then turned into a chucker in the 90s.

We don't count the 80s though.

[Johnny32]

Lebron has 2 bronze medals despite playing with Tim Duncan and lost with HCA 3x while MJ has no bronze medals and never lost with HCA. Lebron got 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him due to suspension while MJ turned an organization that never won into a dynasty.

lebron barely played in the 04 oly lol.

[HoopsNY]

Idgaf what you and that poster were arguing. You quoted me and claimed it was easier to score in the 80s. No shit. Again, though, most of Jordan's prime was in the 90s. HoopsNY included LeBron years going all the way up until 2015. With the exception of maybe 2 seasons, those were ALL years LeBron was in his prime. Jordan primed maybe 2 years in the 80s. 3 tops.

Your argument is absolutely terrible. Same with your math "skillz" dweeb lol.

I didn't include 2004 and 2005 because there are no playoff numbers for those years. So I'm using all of LeBron's postseason numbers. The numbers show us that there is a significant increase after the 2015 season. This coincides with the league becoming more offensively minded and relaxed defensively.

[MadDog]

I didn't include 2004 and 2005 because there are no playoff numbers for those years. So I'm using all of LeBron's postseason numbers. The numbers show us that there is a significant increase after the 2015 season. This coincides with the league becoming more offensively minded and relaxed defensively.

Yeah I got why you did it. LeBron fans quibbled over the years because of hiss age, but its irrelevant. You give them an extra 2 years, say, 2008-09, and the numbers still show an uptick. Three point shooting is up although defenses have gotten significantly worse. I mean, nobody is really gonna argue LeBron began peaking after 2015 lol