You realize stats-wise current LeBron is equal to Prime Jordan?

[Dray n Klay]

Prime Jordan (1991): 31.5ppg 6.0 Rebs 5.5 assists on 61% TS

Current LeBron: 29 points 7.4 rebs 6.6 assists on 63% TS

:confusedshrug:

[ELITEpower23]

The Jordone stains never had a chance

:pimp:

[highwhey]

LeBron is actually superior at his current age than a prime Jordan, the main reason being that this era has a much higher talent pool than Jordan's era.

[ImKobe]

Lebron only plays 1 side of the ball and can't beat an above-average NBA team. What's his record against Playoff teams this season?

[Dray n Klay]

Lebron only plays 1 side of the ball and can't beat an above-average NBA team. What's his record against Playoff teams this season?

Kobe only won 16 games with these Lakers in 2016

[warriorfan]

Why did prime bron get out scored by Jason Terry in the Finals even while playing 67 more minutes?

[ImKobe]

Kobe only won 16 games with these Lakers in 2016

Lebron's a pathetic 3 - 8 against Playoff teams and in one of these wins the Mavs didn't have Doncic and they needed an OT win.. He was also a negative in the +/- department in 2 of the 3 wins. Not good.

[Thenameless]

Prime Jordan (1991): 31.5ppg 6.0 Rebs 5.5 assists on 61% TS

Current LeBron: 29 points 7.4 rebs 6.6 assists on 63% TS

:confusedshrug:

I don't have a dog in this fight. But, prime Jordan was also a DPoY or at least always on the NBA All Defensive Team.

[Dray n Klay]

I don't have a dog in this fight. But, prime Jordan was also a DPoY or at least always on the NBA All Defensive Team.

LeBron is providing elite defense and Rim protection at Center, which is more valuable than Jordan’s defense at SG

[Manny98]

Stats wise prime Westbrook is the GOAT

31.6ppg 10.6rebounds 10.2 assists on 56%TS 30.6 PER :confusedshrug:

[HunterSThompson]

Kobe only won 16 games with these Lakers in 2016

kobe sucked though. this is the best version of lebron offensively that I've ever seen. it defies logic. I'm very impressed. good for him.



tick.....tock......





tick.....tock......









you worried yet. how long before you think people will catch on

[3ba11]

Stats wise prime Westbrook is the GOAT

31.6ppg 10.6rebounds 10.2 assists on 56%TS 30.6 PER :confusedshrug:


Boom

Only Jordan could win with high scoring - only Jordan was good enough to win while vying for the scoring title

Lebron's team sucked in 2008 (scoring title) and sucks now, while Lebron also has numerous key losses in the PLAYOFFS with high scoring

[AirBonner]

LeBeast

[SouBeachTalents]

Boom

Only Jordan could win with high scoring
And only Jordan’s team won 55 games without him.

[3ba11]

And only Jordan’s team won 55 games without him.


They were a shitty team without MJ - a bad team - see the playoffs or 95' before MJ returned

[Vino24]

Only MJ’s team didn’t need his scoring load to win 55 games without him

[3ba11]

Proves that stats mean nothing without winning

[3ba11]

Only MJ’s team didn’t need his scoring load to win 55 games without him


many 55 win teams are BAD TEAMS, like the 94' Bulls

1st options are supposed to build franchises every year, but Pippen had destroyed the Bulls from 3-peat to borderline lottery in less than 18 months by the time MJ returned in 95'

[Vino24]

MJ’s impact is less. They spread the offensive load (points) and easily maintained the same winning rate. MJ didn’t have to shoulder other priorities (rebounds assists)

[SouBeachTalents]

They were a shitty team without MJ - a bad team - see the playoffs or 95' before MJ returned
I saw them win more playoff games in '94 than they did with Jordan in '95. And Pippen was on pace to lead the Bulls to a better record in '95 than Jordan ever did in 5 seasons without Pippen.

[3ba11]

I saw them win more playoff games in '94 than they did with Jordan in '95. And Pippen was on pace to lead the Bulls to a better record in '95 than Jordan ever did in 5 seasons without Pippen.


They had a 3-peat team - only a dumbass compares a team that 3-peated to Lebron's 04' team (lottery team), which is what you're doing comparing Jordan's 3-peat team to lottery teams that he dragged to 8 seeds

If you can't see that it's dumb to compare the 2, then I feel sorry for you - forget the debate - you're a dumbass

[Vino24]

They had a 3-peat team - only a dumbass compares a team that 3-peated to Lebron's 04' team (lottery team), which is what you're doing comparing Jordan's 3-peat team to lottery teams that he dragged to 8 seeds

If you can't see that it's dumb to compare the 2, then I feel sorry for you - forget the debate - you're a dumbass
You do bullshit comparisons literally everyday lol stfu!

[expansionera]

Current Lebron passes the ball, prime Jordan would be a better player with Lebron’s brain and skill

[3ba11]

Current Lebron passes the ball, prime Jordan would be a better player with Lebron’s brain and skill


Lebron employs a low team assist style, so he actually sucks at passing - he's a beginner passer because the only way he gets high assist levels is by having low TEAM assists (essentially hogging the assists)..

Imagine having to hog your team's assists to get high assist levels.. that's a beginner passer

[ImKobe]

Only MJ’s team didn’t need his scoring load to win 55 games without him

Bulls with MJ - 2x 3-Peats
Bulls without MJ - 2nd round exit in '94 & barely .500 when he returned in '95
Pippen without MJ in '99 with Hakeem & Barkley - 1st round exit, '00 in Portland WCF choke as the 3rd best player, '01, '02 & '03 1st round exit

:(

[expansionera]

Bulls with MJ - 2x 3-Peats
Bulls without MJ - 2nd round exit in '94 & barely .500 when he returned in '95
Pippen without MJ in '99 with Hakeem & Barkley - 1st round exit, '00 in Portland WCF choke as the 3rd best player, '01, '02 & '03 1st round exit

:(
Now post MJ’s playoff record and appearances without Pippen lmao

[expansionera]

Lebron employs a low team assist style, so he actually sucks at passing - he's a beginner passer because the only way he gets high assist levels is by having low TEAM assists (essentially hogging the assists)..

Imagine having to hog your team's assists to get high assist levels.. that's a beginner passer

So Jordan’s TEAM did all the passing and assisting for him while he scored and defended the second best player on the opposing team?

[hold this L]

While equaling Kanter on the defensive end. As Jordan racked up DPOTY trophies.

[3ba11]

So Jordan’s TEAM did all the passing and assisting for him while he scored and defended the second best player on the opposing team?


Lebron's beginner passing (ball-dominance) yields low-assist teams that are 4/10 on the championship level including 2 teammate bailouts.

Otoh, Jordan's advanced passing (no ball-dominance) allows better team strategy/winning (ball movement), confirmed by Jordan's 6/6 record in the Finals record and with good teams (1 or 2 seeds).

Everyone lost a ton with good teams, while Jordan never did - he never lost with 1 or 2 seeds, Finals teams, defending champion teams, or as the favorite

[SouBeachTalents]

They had a 3-peat team - only a dumbass compares a team that 3-peated to Lebron's 04' team (lottery team), which is what you're doing comparing Jordan's 3-peat team to lottery teams that he dragged to 8 seeds

If you can't see that it's dumb to compare the 2, then I feel sorry for you - forget the debate - you're a dumbass
Huh, who the fck mentioned the '04 Cavs :oldlol:

[Bronbron23]

Prime Jordan (1991): 31.5ppg 6.0 Rebs 5.5 assists on 61% TS

Current LeBron: 29 points 7.4 rebs 6.6 assists on 63% TS

:confusedshrug:

Did you know stats wise lebron plays in the easiest era ever?

[dankok8]

As good as he is for a 37 year old, current Lebron is nowhere close to even prime Lebron let alone prime Jordan.

[MadDog]

Jordan had better advanced and impact stats, Across the map. He also played much better defense. I'm sure you already knew that, but hey, here's my pity reply :cheers:

[Spurs m8]

Stats wise prime Westbrook is the GOAT

31.6ppg 10.6rebounds 10.2 assists on 56%TS 30.6 PER :confusedshrug:

Hahahah SHUT.IT.DOWN

And shut LeFrauds whole manufactured legacy down

No-one is buying it

[Spurs m8]

Another thread backfire by OP.

You'd think he may learn that his deceptiveness doesn't work here...stupid cvnt

[Vino24]

LeGoat

[expansionera]

Hahahah SHUT.IT.DOWN

And shut LeFrauds whole manufactured legacy down

No-one is buying it
Lebron has multiple FMVPs and MVPs, superior efficiency and team success, that’s the difference. Raw counting stats with no context are meaningless

[RogueBorg]

6 & 6 FMVP/15>>>4 & 4 FMVP/18

Always

[TheGoatest]

10/19 finals made >>>>> 6/15 finals made
14/15 times out of the first round >>>> 10/13 times out of the first round
3/3 franchises played and won with >>>>> 1/2 franchises played and won with
Not having every one of your championships ball-and-chained to a single player >>>>>>>>> having all of your championships ball-and-chained to a single player

:banana:

[Spurs m8]

We celebrating cake walking past Paul Millsap and Kyle Korver, only to get raped when it matters, boys!!

LeGOAT

WE LOSE = WE WIN!!!

[TheGoatest]

Nope, we celebrating beating a 73-9 while being the only player ever to lead any playoff, let alone finals series in every statistical category. :banana:
You celebrating winning in an era where your rivals couldn't beat Hakeem and a bunch of role players

[3ba11]

.
Lebron had 35 on 70% last night but still loses more than less stacked teams because he takes too long to get elite stats - his production per hold-time is low compared to other wings or frontcourt players:



Hold-Time ("time of possession")


Lebron..... 6.2 minutes

Giannis.... 4.6 minutes

Durant...... 4.2 minutes

Jokic........ 4.1 minutes

Booker...... 3.6 minutes


The gap between Lebron and other wings is the time those teams can employ superior strategy (move the ball).

Ball movement wears down defenses more than ball-dominance, so worn-out opponents have less capacity to go off offensively (win the battle of attrition)..

The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

Otoh, defenses get tons of rest against ball-dominance, so they routinely go off offensively on ball-dominators like 90 or 91' Magic without Kareem (blown away by KJ & MJ), or Lebron many years (09', 11', 14', 17', 18', 21').

[MadDog]

Are those numbers updated, 3ball? :confusedshrug: If so they're pretty staggering. LeBron's actually let Westbrook do more of the playmaking this year, yet he still holds it longer than guys like Jokic and Durant. Interested to see how his RPM will look when it comes out.

I've maintained that LeBron's scoring stretch hasn't had much impact. For one, he gives up that many points on the other end. But seeing these "time of possession" numbers could be just as big a factor.

[3ba11]

Are those numbers updated, 3ball? :confusedshrug: If so they're pretty staggering. LeBron's actually let Westbrook do more of the playmaking this year, yet he still holds it longer than guys like Jokic and Durant. Interested to see how his RPM will look when it comes out.

I've maintained that LeBron's scoring stretch hasn't had much impact. For one, he gives up that many points on the other end. But seeing these "time of possession" numbers could be just as big a factor.


Those are the latest hold-time numbers from NBA.com.

Ultimately, Lebron never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles.. Since he never learned how to elevate teammates, he couldn't learn how to WIN (organic) - he only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning), and talent-based winning loses to organic ball movement (lottery record against Spurs, Mavs, Warriors).

It's funny because Lebron actually did elevate Monk the other day by standing in the corner for Monk, thereby elevating Monk's role to playmaker while being an assist target/bailout option and providing spacing for Monk... Lebron was the bailout option (elevating teammates), rather than using his teammates as the bailout option (ball-dominance)

[Shogon]

How the **** don't you ****ers ever get tired of this shit?

I don't care if you're extremely pro hyping LeBron, extremely pro detracting LeBron or somewhere in the middle..

SHUT THE **** UP, ALL OF YOU.

:roll:

****'s sake, man.

[StrongLurk]

Are those numbers updated, 3ball? :confusedshrug: If so they're pretty staggering. LeBron's actually let Westbrook do more of the playmaking this year, yet he still holds it longer than guys like Jokic and Durant. Interested to see how his RPM will look when it comes out.

I've maintained that LeBron's scoring stretch hasn't had much impact. For one, he gives up that many points on the other end. But seeing these "time of possession" numbers could be just as big a factor.

Those are a little misleading since Lebron often brings the ball up the court which skews the numbers. A bit of his hold time could be cut off if we just used the half court.

Lebron seconds per touch: 4.18 seconds
KD seconds per touch: 3.56 seconds

Plenty of players have worse "hold times" per second than Lebron.

[Micku]

LeBron is providing elite defense and Rim protection at Center, which is more valuable than Jordan’s defense at SG

I don't think it's true atm? I think they are still pretty bad with LeBron on the floor at rim protection. Allowing like on average 49.2 ppg, which is the second most in the league. But like the last 3 games, they allowed 54.7 ppg. He is better at the help and when he was on Miami at the rim protection. He gets the most shots attempts at the rim and the most shots made. It's not like he is Jarret Allen or Gobert. Due to players willing to go to the paint more with the Lakers than most other teams, the Lakers gott'a protect the paint more often. Part of the reason why they get so many shots in the paint cuz they ain't afraid too and players can't stay in front of the opposing players.


https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/opponent-points-in-paint-per-game

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/opponent-shooting/?Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=Less%20Than%205%20ft.%20FGM&dir=1

LeBron is a big body and do try at times, but not as much as he used to. Unless there are some stat that I'm missing that shows LeBron is pretty elite at it. He is one of the best of the team at defending atm. But it's not saying too much cuz the whole team is trash atm at defending at an elite lvl.

MJ had a better motor in his prime.

[RRR3]

Stats wise prime Westbrook is the GOAT

31.6ppg 10.6rebounds 10.2 assists on 56%TS 30.6 PER :confusedshrug:
That’s not the GOAT season by any means but he was no doubt a beast that year.

[HylianNightmare]

So he should win a chip this year

[3ba11]

Those are a little misleading since Lebron often brings the ball up the court which skews the numbers. A bit of his hold time could be cut off if we just used the half court.

Lebron seconds per touch: 4.18 seconds
KD seconds per touch: 3.56 seconds

Plenty of players have worse "hold times" per second than Lebron.


Lebron's points per touch or per dribble has always been among the worst in the league.

think about that guy at the YMCA that when you pass it to him, he immediately starts pounding the rock and dribbling the air out of the ball - that's Lebron.. this guy isn't running off screens and doing catch-and-shoots or quick iso's - he's employing a simple, westbrooking skillset that looks better because he's 6'9", but it's still the same ball-dominant strategy that needs super-teams to win.

[3ba11]

So he should win a chip this year


Boom.. and therein lies the rub..

Jordan had elite jumpshooting skill and pure scoring off-the-catch..

Accordingly, his scoring was partially-assisted, which ELEVATES teammate role to playmaker and allows the best strategy (ball movement).

Otoh, Lebron's scoring is ball-dominant and low-assisted, which reduces teammates to spot-up roles and prevents the best strategy (ball movement).

So it shouldn't be a surprise that Lebron needs FAR GREATER SUPPORTING TALENT TO WIN

[expansionera]

Boom.. and therein lies the rub..

Jordan had elite jumpshooting skill and pure scoring off-the-catch..

Accordingly, his scoring was partially-assisted, which ELEVATES teammate role to playmaker and allows the best strategy (ball movement).

Otoh, Lebron's scoring is ball-dominant and low-assisted, which reduces teammates to spot-up roles and prevents the best strategy (ball movement).

So it shouldn't be a surprise that Lebron needs FAR GREATER SUPPORTING TALENT TO WIN

No Pip

[3ba11]

No Pip


Supporting Talent Needed to Make Playoffs and win 1st Round:


Jordan.... 8 ppg Pippen

Lebron.... 2x all-star Zydrunas... 22/6/5 first-team defender Hughes... future COY... top defenses... 3 years to develop into high seed

[Dray n Klay]

No Pip

No Chip :pimp:

[3ba11]

No Chip :pimp:


No team-hopping for multiple pip's, no chip


(or team-hopping for a "jordan".. AD was playoff scoring champ and led Lakers all year statistically)

[Dray n Klay]

No team-hopping for multiple pip's, no chip


(or team-hopping for a "jordan".. AD was playoff scoring champ and led Lakers all year statistically)

LeBron only needed 5 All-NBA/ All-Defensive teammates for 4 rings, Jordan needed 15 of them for 6 rings


So LeBron did better relative to his help

[Axe]

10/19 finals made >>>>> 6/15 finals made
14/15 times out of the first round >>>> 10/13 times out of the first round
3/3 franchises played and won with >>>>> 1/2 franchises played and won with
Not having every one of your championships ball-and-chained to a single player >>>>>>>>> having all of your championships ball-and-chained to a single player

:banana:
King kong has two rings that weren't won in an 82-game regular season. But it's kinda crazy for a delusional stan like you to exaggerate their values tho.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I take this version of LeBron over any version of MJ with no hesitation.

LeGenius is simply in a different class. Jordan's greatness was predicted on athleticism and a very weak era.... lebrons is predicated on goat iq, work ethic, versatility and GIRTH. Jordan wouldn't be great in all eras, lebron would he the best in any era at any age.

Just absolutely amazing what we're witnessing. Lebron is a God.

[3ba11]

I take this version of LeBron over any version of MJ with no hesitation.

LeGenius is simply in a different class. Jordan's greatness was predicted on athleticism and a very weak era.... lebrons is predicated on goat iq, work ethic, versatility and GIRTH. Jordan wouldn't be great in all eras, lebron would he the best in any era at any age.

Just absolutely amazing what we're witnessing. Lebron is a God.


Lebron is literally losing his ass with a super-team specifically because he ISN'T playing a smart brand of basketball that can fit with Westbrook, Kuzma, or Ingram.. he has zero #1 offenses in 2 decades because he isn't a smart player.. you guys just conflate his physical talent with IQ, which is amazingly shallow thinking

If he was so smart, he wouldn't cede the best brand of ball, best offenses, best teams and dynasties to other teams and players..

[TheGoatest]

King kong has two rings that weren't won in an 82-game regular season. But it's kinda crazy for a delusional stan like you to exaggerate their values tho.

Only shows the variety in ways in which he can win:

82 game season? Check. Twice.
More condensed 66 game season with fewer days of rest between games? Check.
Season that was suddenly halted mid-season and then later played in an environment that was 100% equal for all? Check.

In other words, LeBron won the marathon, the sprint AND the hurdle. He is essentially these three dudes at once:

https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/images/story/202004/bolt13042020.jpeg?CcGCuYP4S1INVfK52Xa9srwVQdCliEZ3&size=770:433

https://media2.malaymail.com/uploads/articles/2021/2021-08/Eliud_Kipchoge_marathon_tokyo_olympics_0808_(2).jp g

https://e3.365dm.com/21/08/768x432/skynews-tokyo-olympics-karsten-warholm_5466507.jpg?20210803052523

:banana:

[3ba11]

.
Per 100 Possessions

86-98' Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1986-1998-sum:per_poss)..... 42.1 pts... 121 ortg
2022 Lebron (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html)....... 37.5 pts... 119 ortg


Lebron is only averaging 37.5 points per 100, whereas MJ never went below 40 from 86-98', except 92' (39.4)

Of course MJ's stats were achieved while the team played a superior brand of basketball and teammates played to capacity.. This contrasts greatly with Lebron's current westbrooking and losing with far more help than MJ ever had

[Dray n Klay]

.
Per 100 Possessions

86-98' Jordan (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1986-1998-sum:per_poss)..... 42.1 pts... 121 ortg
2022 Lebron (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html)....... 37.5 pts... 119 ortg


Lebron is only averaging 37.5 points per 100, whereas MJ never went below 40 from 86-98', except 92' (39.4)

Of course MJ's stats were achieved while the team played a superior brand of basketball and teammates played to capacity.. This contrasts greatly with Lebron's current westbrooking and losing with far more help than MJ ever had

Rebounds/Assists/FG%/TS%?

[3ba11]

Rebounds/Assists/FG%/TS%?


No need

Lebron's usage is barely 30% this year, which is a significantly lower burden than Jordan's norm (33-38%), yet Lebron is still getting 5 less points per 100 on weaker efficiency per possession (ortg).

smh.. MJ makes Lebron look like a bum

[bullettooth]

https://i.postimg.cc/Mp52TX4F/lebum-among-legends.jpg