On paper, the 17' Warriors demolish the 96' Bulls

[3ba11]

.
MJ and KD cancel each other for the purposes of this discussion:



Curry > Pippen

Dray > Rodman

Klay, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut > Kukoc


Conclusion: the method the 96' Bulls would use to beat the 17' Warriors is the same method as always - have MJ carry the team (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500961-Only-1-guy-carried-most-important-category-for-his-entire-career)

[expansionera]

Harper (all defensive 1st team)
Pippen (best defender in history)
Rodman (x2 defensive player of the year)
Toni Kukoc (Hall of Fame)

Let’s be honest, the strategy was to have a better defender than Jordan lock up the opponents best player while Pippen creates easy looks for Jordan who takes all the credit. If Jordan’s Bulls win the series it have little to do with MJ’s scoring and everything to do with his teammates best in league ability to slow down opposing players

[Johnny32]

6'6 or taller all defensive caliber wing defenders mj would face vs the 2017 gsw...3.
6'6 or taller all defensive caliber wing defenders mj faced in his entire playoff career...2.

warriors in 4.

[TheGoatest]

Those Bulls wouldn't know what hit them if you put them on the court against those Warriors, who shot 2-3 times as many 3 pointers as their opponents while also hitting those 3s at a higher percentage.

[SouBeachTalents]

Imagine those Warriors playing with the shortened 3 point line :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Harper (all defensive 1st team)
Pippen (best defender in history)
Rodman (x2 defensive player of the year)
Toni Kukoc (Hall of Fame)

Let’s be honest, the strategy was to have a better defender than Jordan lock up the opponents best player while Pippen creates easy looks for Jordan who takes all the credit. If Jordan’s Bulls win the series it have little to do with MJ’s scoring and everything to do with his teammates best in league ability to slow down opposing players



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

[ShawkFactory]

If the 96 Bulls won it’d be because they dominated on the glass and bothered Curry enough to throw him off.

[Johnny32]

mj was the worst starting defender (def rating) on his team in the 96-98 finals.

facts > fangirl reputation votes

[AlternativeAcc.]

Didn't they get pushed to the brink by Payton/Kemp?:oldlol:

4-0 easy sweep for the Warriors

[TheCorporation]

Imagine those Warriors playing with the shortened 3 point line :oldlol:

Klay's dropping even more than 39 in a quarter :lol

Incoming 50 pt quarter for Klay maybe

[expansionera]

The media sucked Jordan’s dick regardless of his actual impact on the court? You don’t say

Jordan was the best perimeter defender in the league which is why Pippen guarded Magic Johnson on a Lakers team that consisted of an injured James Worthy and no other top 350 guys

[3ba11]

If the 96 Bulls won it’d be because they dominated on the glass and bothered Curry enough to throw him off.


Who can guard Curry??.. Pippen never guarded guys like that (short guys or screen-runners)

only jordan did

so Jordan would be the guy disrupting Curry just like he did Isiah, Dumars, or even Miller in 98' at 35 years old (17 on 40% for Miller).

So the Bulls would win with MJ carrying the defense and of course offense - that's how they always won (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500961-Only-1-guy-carried-most-important-category-for-his-entire-career)

[StrongLurk]

Every single post OP makes supports one main fact about the Bulls success.

They won so many titles in the 90's because it was an extremely weak era...that's basically it. Everyone on the Bulls sucked except MJ, yet the Bulls dominated their comp because the comp was even worse.

Of course the 17 Warriors demolish the 96 Bulls...but that doesn't mean MJ wouldn't be the best player in that series.

[ShawkFactory]

Who can guard Curry??.. Pippen never guarded guys like that (short guys or screen-runners)

only jordan did

so Jordan would be the guy disrupting Curry just like he did Isiah, Dumars, or even Miller in 98' at 35 years old (17 on 40% for Miller).

So the Bulls would win with MJ carrying the defense and of course offense - that's how they always won (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500961-Only-1-guy-carried-most-important-category-for-his-entire-career)

It’d be a team effort but yea I’d assume Jordan would be the primary with Harper and Pippen supplementing.

Pippen would be with KD primarily.

But they’d also win by dominating on the glass. That was the biggest factor against Seattle and the difference would be even more stark against GS.

[3ba11]

.

They won so many titles in the 90's because it was an extremely weak





Or the era was infact strong and Jordan simply won 6 "dirk" rings with a weak cast

The stats support this by showing lower stats for his teammates and bigger gaps between teammates and Jordan than Dirk and his teammates, or even 94' Hakeem and his teammates...

There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st option and teammates than MJ and his cast

[expansionera]

Who can guard Curry??.. [/url]

Matthew Delavadova? I’m pretty sure Ron Harper was better on defense than some literal Australia league bench player

[StrongLurk]

Or the era was infact strong and Jordan simply won 6 "dirk" rings with a weak cast

The stats support this by showing lower stats for his teammates and bigger gaps between teammates and Jordan than Dirk and his teammates, or even 94' Hakeem and his teammates.

Nope, everyone on the Bulls outside of MJ sucked according to you but those "sucky" players routinely outplayed the opposing teams best players at the highest level in the finals. You've admitted plenty of times MJ wouldn't win 6 rings in the 80's because of higher concentration of talent on the top teams. Can't backtrack now.

[1987_Lakers]

Who can guard Curry??.. Pippen never guarded guys like that (short guys or screen-runners)

only jordan did

so Jordan would be the guy disrupting Curry just like he did Isiah, Dumars, or even Miller in 98' at 35 years old (17 on 40% for Miller).

So the Bulls would win with MJ carrying the defense and of course offense - that's how they always won (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500961-Only-1-guy-carried-most-important-category-for-his-entire-career)

Good luck chasing Curry all around the court spending all that energy while still having to "carry" the offense while being defended by Iggy & Klay.

[zeerghit]

the attention you giving to with clown is astonishing

[3ba11]

Good luck chasing Curry all around the court spending all that energy while still having to "carry" the offense while being defended by Iggy & Klay.


^^^ That's literally how MJ won all his titles - he was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Isiah and Payton, while carrying the scoreboard more than anyone ever has

So the Bulls would win with MJ carrying the defense and of course offense - that's how they always won

[1987_Lakers]

^^^ That's literally how MJ won all his titles - he was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Isiah and Payton, while carrying the scoreboard more than anyone ever has

You are not even aware that from '96-'98, Phil usually put Michael on the guard who was the least threatening. Go back and watch the '98 ECF, MJ spent alot of time guarding a past prime Mullin while Harper defended Miller.

Yet, you make it sound like MJ was the reason why Miller shot 40% in '98, super weak dude.

[Wally450]

So would the 86 Celtics.

[3ba11]

You are not even aware that from '96-'98, Phil usually put Michael on the guard who was the least threatening. Go back and watch the '98 ECF, MJ spent alot of time guarding a past prime Mullin while Harper defended Miller.

Yet, you make it sound like MJ was the reason why Miller shot 40% in '98, super weak dude.


MJ was the primary defender on Miller, while Pippen guarded the slow guys (Jackson, Mullin)

MJ was also the primary defender on Payton in Games 3 and 5, while also guarding Rod Strickland as the primary defender.. He also spent time on Stockton and Tim Hardaway

Don't pretend spot-duty is anywhere near having that primary matchup and being the primary defender, as Jordan was on the opponent's best player in the vast majority of series

[1987_Lakers]

MJ was the primary defender on Miller, while Pippen guarded the slow guys (Jackson, Mullin)

Don't pretend spot-duty is anywhere near having that primary matchup and being the primary defender, as Jordan was on the opponent's best player in the vast majority of series

Nah, Bulls started every game with Pippen on Jackson, Harper on Miller, & MJ on ancient Mullin. Shame on you for lying.

Magic also took a shit on MJ in '91 and it was Pippen who stepped up and and guarded Magic, disrupting the Lakers offense in the process.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE&t

[expansionera]

MJ was the primary defender on Miller, while Pippen guarded the slow guys (Jackson, Mullin)

MJ was also the primary defender on Payton in Games 3 and 5, while also guarding Rod Strickland as the primary defender.. He also spent time on Stockton and Tim Hardaway

Don't pretend spot-duty is anywhere near having that primary matchup and being the primary defender, as Jordan was on the opponent's best player in the vast majority of series

Guarding Payton in 2 games in a 6 games series doesn’t qualify as “spot duty?”

[Gimmedarock]

No contest. Way way too much offense. Three guys on the Warriors capable of 30+ any night against Jordan and Pippen? No way this is close. It’s silly to discuss it. Offense is too good today. Picture Jordan walking the ball up the court and scoring 2. Then picture Curry barely crossing half court and hitting a three. How demoralizing would that be?

Warriors blow out any 80’s - 2000’s team. Lebron’s Cavs probably do the same. No team from those eras would be competitive. Truth bruh.

[3ba11]

Nah, Bulls started every game with Pippen on Jackson, Harper on Miller, & MJ on ancient Mullin. Shame on you for lying.

Magic also took a shit on MJ in '91 and it was Pippen who stepped up and and guarded Magic, disrupting the Lakers offense in the process.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE&t


MJ guarded Miller for the vast majority of the series in the 98' ECF - no amount of history revision by you will change that obvious fact.. You're just a shameful liar that can't make an argument, so you just start lying.

And the Bulls' offense blew the doors off LA in Game 2 of the 91' Finals in a 14' Spurs-style fashion because MJ went 15-18 against max defensive attention - so Pippen's defense in Game 2 had little impact in that blowout compared to Jordan's clutch defense on Magic in the 4th and OT of the series-changing Game 3..

MJ literally guarded Magic for 70% of possessions in that series while carrying the offense, which is a Herculean feat matched by.... literally no one

[1987_Lakers]

MJ guarded Miller for the vast majority of the series in the 98' ECF - no amount of history revision by you will change that obvious fact.. You're just a shameful liar that can't make an argument, so you just start lying.

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/05/15/last-dance-looking-back-1998-bulls-vs-pacers-eastern-conference-finals-michael-jordan-reggie-miller/3111548001/

"Chicago used Pippen on Mark Jackson and forced the Pacers’ point guard into more turnovers (seven) than assists (six). Ron Harper covered Reggie Miller and Jordan moved over to defend Chris Mullin, keeping the Bulls star as fresh as possible on the offensive end."

There you have it. You're an idiot, Harper was the primary defender on Reggie most of the series.

[Lebowski]

.
MJ and KD cancel each other for the purposes of this discussion:



Curry > Pippen

Dray > Rodman

Klay, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut > Kukoc


Conclusion: the method the 96' Bulls would use to beat the 17' Warriors is the same method as always - have MJ carry the team (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500961-Only-1-guy-carried-most-important-category-for-his-entire-career)

:facepalm

We all know that you are malignant **** but your waste of 1s and 0s is starting to piss me off. Mods? For the environment if nothing else.

[Vino24]

Imagine MJ facing zone

[3ba11]

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2020/05/15/last-dance-looking-back-1998-bulls-vs-pacers-eastern-conference-finals-michael-jordan-reggie-miller/3111548001/

"Chicago used Pippen on Mark Jackson and forced the Pacers’ point guard into more turnovers (seven) than assists (six). Ron Harper covered Reggie Miller and Jordan moved over to defend Chris Mullin, keeping the Bulls star as fresh as possible on the offensive end."

There you have it. You're an idiot, Harper was the primary defender on Reggie most of the series.


That's a description of one instance - we aren't 5 year olds on here - you can't fool anyone

Anyone that watched the series knows that Jordan mostly guarded Miller and then Travis Best (the lightning quick difference-maker).. Phil didn't let Pippen go anywhere near the quick players and put him on the slowest guys like Jackson, which anyone could guard.. It isn't an accomplishment to hold down the slowest PG ever, but it is an accomplishment to shut down HOF Miller

[Rysio]

96 bulls are the most overrated teams of all time so who cares. They won 72 games in a league filled with bad teams and easily won a ring cuz there was no competition. Lots of teams of 2000s, 10s would beat them.

[1987_Lakers]

That's a description of one instance - we aren't 5 year olds on here - you can't fool anyone

Anyone that watched the series knows that Jordan mostly guarded Miller and then Travis Best (the lightning quick difference-maker).. Phil didn't let Pippen go anywhere near the quick players and put him on the slowest guys like Jackson, which anyone could guard.. It isn't an accomplishment to hold down the slowest PG ever, but it is an accomplishment to shut down HOF Miller

No, it is you who can't fool anyone...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1998/05/25/pacers-miller-hobbling-but-says-hell-play/0eca08e0-e3e4-4a42-aa01-e90ce948188b/

"Miller said he would rather have Jordan guard him, and not Ron Harper, because that forces Jordan to expend more energy on defense. Jordan's current assignment, made by Jordan, has him on Chris Mullin -- who isn't Indiana's first option offensively. "Sort of a layoff" is how Miller describes Jordan's energy output guarding Mullin."

3ball destroyed again.

[Johnny32]

96 bulls are the most overrated teams of all time so who cares. They won 72 games in a league filled with bad teams and easily won a ring cuz there was no competition. Lots of teams of 2000s, 10s would beat them.

they couldn't defend quick guards. they'd get torched in today's nba.

[3ba11]

No, it is you who can't fool anyone...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1998/05/25/pacers-miller-hobbling-but-says-hell-play/0eca08e0-e3e4-4a42-aa01-e90ce948188b/

"Miller said he would rather have Jordan guard him, and not Ron Harper, because that forces Jordan to expend more energy on defense. Jordan's current assignment, made by Jordan, has him on Chris Mullin -- who isn't Indiana's first option offensively. "Sort of a layoff" is how Miller describes Jordan's energy output guarding Mullin."

3ball destroyed again.


Again, you're describing 1 instance and Miller just wanted to wear down Jordan defensively - it had nothing to do with defensive capability (Jordan was #4 for DPOY in 98' compared to #9 for Pippen).

And you're derailing from the overriding point that the Bulls would beat the Warriors the same way they beat every team - by having Jordan be the primary defender on Curry just like he was on Magic, Drexler, Payton, Miller, Strickland and more, while also carrying the scoreboard more than anyone ever has

Btw, Miller references his offense wearing down Jordan, which is something you guys don't understand - having your offense wear down guys is a big part of defense because you don't have to play as much defense against worn-out opponents.. that's why ball-dominance is inferior because it lets defenses rest, so they have reserves to go off offensively.. teams always go off on ball-dominators - see Magic in 90' or 91' without Kareem, or Lebron in 09', 11', 14' 17' or 21'... otoh, ball movement wears teams down more and wins the battle of attrition - the best defense is a good offense.

[1987_Lakers]

they couldn't defend quick guards. they'd get torched in today's nba.

The Warriors are the worse possible matchup for MJ. He can't hide on defense because he has to guard either Curry or Klay (Not past prime Mullin) then on offense he has to deal with Iggy & Klay defending him. If you thought Byron Russell gave him issues, imagine this Warriors team. :lol

[3ba11]

The Warriors are the worse possible matchup for MJ. He can't hide on defense because he has to guard either Curry or Klay (Not past prime Mullin) then on offense he has to deal with Iggy & Klay defending him. If you thought Byron Russell gave him issues, imagine this Warriors team. :lol


The only way the Bulls could win is by winning the same way they always did - put Jordan on the best player like Magic, Drexler, Payton, Isiah or Miller, and also have him carry the scoreboard more than anyone ever has

[kawhileonard2]

.
MJ and KD cancel each other for the purposes of this discussion:



Curry > Pippen

Dray > Rodman

Klay, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut > Kukoc


Conclusion: the method the 96' Bulls would use to beat the 17' Warriors is the same method as always - have MJ carry the team (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500961-Only-1-guy-carried-most-important-category-for-his-entire-career)

Agreed

[TheCorporation]

Every single post OP makes supports one main fact about the Bulls success.

They won so many titles in the 90's because it was an extremely weak era...that's basically it. Everyone on the Bulls sucked except MJ, yet the Bulls dominated their comp because the comp was even worse.

Of course the 17 Warriors demolish the 96 Bulls...but that doesn't mean MJ wouldn't be the best player in that series.

THIS

/thread

[3ba11]

THIS

/thread


The era was infact strong and Jordan simply won 6 "dirk" rings with a weak cast

The stats support this by showing low stats for his teammates and bigger gaps between teammates and Jordan than Dirk and his teammates, or even 94' Hakeem and his teammates...

There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st option and teammates than MJ and his cast

[FilmyCogTurner]

I don't like to discredit any teams in history but that 17 Warriors team is an aberration to NBA basketball. Let's take any all-time team and add a max player cap slot to an already stacked roster and see what happens.

It was interesting to see and fun to root against but the whole thing should have never happened and was stupid.

[3ba11]

I don't like to discredit any teams in history but that 17 Warriors team is an aberration to NBA basketball. Let's take any all-time team and add a max player cap slot to an already stacked roster and see what happens.

It was interesting to see and fun to root against but the whole thing should have never happened and was stupid.


In 2010, Lebron created an aberration by asking:

"Aside from me, who has the highest PER, BPM, WS/48, and VORP in the land?"

And then teaming up with that player.....

That's like Magic teaming up with Bird or Kobe with Tmac.

Ultimately, Lebron hand-picked the on-paper, preseason favorite from 2011-2016 (talent favorite), but inferior strategy/brand of ball ceded favorite status to others as the season progressed.. His inferior brand turned preseason favorites into Finals underdogs or losers for 7 straight years (2010-2011), except the Ray Allen miracle.. That's the definition of underachieving the expectation (turning the preseason favorite into underdog or loser for 7 straight years)

[Bronbron23]

.
MJ and KD cancel each other for the purposes of this discussion:



Curry > Pippen

Dray > Rodman

Klay, Iggy, Barnes, Bogut > Kukoc


Conclusion: the method the 96' Bulls would use to beat the 17' Warriors is the same method as always - have MJ carry the team (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500961-Only-1-guy-carried-most-important-category-for-his-entire-career)

Nah on paper the bulls match up defensively very well witj the warriors and they can go small defensively with rod at center and switch everything.

[3ba11]

Nah on paper the bulls match up defensively very well witj the warriors and they can go small defensively with rod at center and switch everything.


That's overrated because the Warriors have that too, while demolishing the Bulls offensively

So the only way the Bulls can win is if MJ carries the scoreboard and stifles the opponent's best player (curry) as the primary defender, which is how the Bulls won all 6 titles

[FilmyCogTurner]

In 2010, Lebron created an aberration by asking:

"Aside from me, who has the highest PER, BPM, WS/48, and VORP in the land?"

And then teaming up with that player.....

That's like Magic teaming up with Bird or Kobe with Tmac.

Ultimately, Lebron hand-picked the on-paper, preseason favorite from 2011-2016 (talent favorite), but inferior strategy/brand of ball ceded favorite status to others as the season progressed.. His inferior brand turned preseason favorites into Finals underdogs or losers for 7 straight years (2010-2011), except the Ray Allen miracle.. That's the definition of underachieving the expectation (turning the preseason favorite into underdog or loser for 7 straight years)

I agree - a superstar jumping ship like that is an aberration also.

They themselves thought they were going to rattle off something like 7 straight championships which tells you all you need to know about how talent rich that team was. Problem is Lebron has major flaws in his game that a lot of people around here fail to realize.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

Pippen peaked at 22 ppg and never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series, while averaging 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals - so the 96' Bulls would beat the 17' Warriors the same way they always won - MJ carrying the load

[SouBeachTalents]

.
Thread Cliffs

Pippen peaked at 22 ppg and never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series of his career, while averaging 15 on 34% in the Finals in question (1996) - so the 96' Bulls could only win a Finals against the 17' Warriors by winning the same way they always do - with MJ carrying the load
The bolded is a straight up lie, Pippen did so in multiple series. And how’d Jordan do in the Finals in question?

[Axe]

How much of a dumbass op is for creating such redundant thread? You attract so many fellow trolls lol.

[Axe]

I don't like to discredit any teams in history but that 17 Warriors team is an aberration to NBA basketball. Let's take any all-time team and add a max player cap slot to an already stacked roster and see what happens.

It was interesting to see and fun to root against but the whole thing should have never happened and was stupid.
This. And let's not forget that team never beat anyone in the finals outside of king kong's cavaliers.

[Axe]

That's overrated because the Warriors have that too, while demolishing the Bulls offensively

So the only way the Bulls can win is if MJ carries the scoreboard and stifles the opponent's best player (curry) as the primary defender, which is how the Bulls won all 6 titles
He wasn't even the best player of his team in the finals :yaohappy:

Op caught lying again

[ShawkFactory]

No, it is you who can't fool anyone...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1998/05/25/pacers-miller-hobbling-but-says-hell-play/0eca08e0-e3e4-4a42-aa01-e90ce948188b/

"Miller said he would rather have Jordan guard him, and not Ron Harper, because that forces Jordan to expend more energy on defense. Jordan's current assignment, made by Jordan, has him on Chris Mullin -- who isn't Indiana's first option offensively. "Sort of a layoff" is how Miller describes Jordan's energy output guarding Mullin."

3ball destroyed again.

I've watched game 7 of the ECF in full. When Harper was in the game he guarded Reggie. Except the last couple of minutes.

If that was the strategy for a do or die game 7 I'm going to assume that the rest of the series wasn't much different.

[3ba11]

The bolded is a straight up lie, Pippen did so in multiple series. And how’d Jordan do in the Finals in question?


Pippen averaged 4 less in 1 series and 8 less in another, otherwise 10-30 less in every series, including 10-20 less in every Finals or playoff run..

^^^ that is BY FAR: 1) the biggest statistical gap between #1 and #2 option and 2) the lowest peak stats of any sidekick (never leading the team in any series, aka the only sidekick that was ALWAYS carried)

Ultimately, everyone in history had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for multiple playoff runs and Finals, so they didn't face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced maximum defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[RRR3]

The 17 Warriors would blow out the 96 Bulls in four straight. I question your IQ if you think otherwise. I’m not saying the 96 Bulls weren’t great but that was before teams learned the value of the 3pt shot and you’re not beating a team spamming 3s with contested midrange jumpers. If the 96 Bulls players were all adapted to the modern league it’d be a different story and idk what would happen. I would still favor the 17 Warriors though they’re the GOAT team.

[3ba11]

The 17 Warriors would blow out the 96 Bulls in four straight. I question your IQ if you think otherwise. I’m not saying the 96 Bulls weren’t great but that was before teams learned the value of the 3pt shot and you’re not beating a team spamming 3s with contested midrange jumpers. If the 96 Bulls players were all adapted to the modern league it’d be a different story and idk what would happen. I would still favor the 17 Warriors though they’re the GOAT team.


I've agreed with you this entire thread - the Bulls' roster gets destroyed on paper.

So for the Bulls to win, they'll have to do what they always do - have Jordan carry the scoreboard while being the primary defender on Magic/Drexler/Curry/Miller/Payton/Isiah, aka the opponent's best player.

Maybe he could do it - maybe not - but 6/6 and never losing with good teams is a literally the best track record of success in these spots

[RRR3]

You’re an idiot. Jordan could score 60 and it wouldn’t matter lol. No one the 96 Bulls would have any clue how to defend Curry lmfao

[1987_Lakers]

I've watched game 7 of the ECF in full. When Harper was in the game he guarded Reggie. Except the last couple of minutes.

If that was the strategy for a do or die game 7 I'm going to assume that the rest of the series wasn't much different.

3ball caught lying again. :lol

[3ba11]

You’re an idiot. Jordan could score 60 and it wouldn’t matter lol. No one the 96 Bulls would have any clue how to defend Curry lmfao


Maybe MJ could carry the load successfully like he's done in every Finals, or maybe not - but Jordan's 6/6 and never losing with good teams is a literally the best track record of success in these spots

Btw, if this was the 88-93' Bulls, everyone would've thought that Jordan was the best guy to guard Durant, just like they did Magic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s).. People don't realize that Pippen's only history up until the 91' Playoffs was historic weakness and choking - no one considered him viable for such a big assignment like Magic in his first Finals - so Pippen made a lot of hay off the surprise factor of him doing okay in the Game 2 blowout, , but Jordan was the primary defender throughout the series including the critical fourth quarter & OT of Game 3 that swung the series.

[3ba11]

I've watched game 7 of the ECF in full. When Harper was in the game he guarded Reggie. Except the last couple of minutes.

If that was the strategy for a do or die game 7 I'm going to assume that the rest of the series wasn't much different.


No dummy.. Adjustments are made throughout a series - Jordan guarded Miller most of the series

Furthermore, MJ/Harper were often not on the floor together... And when they were, Jordan or Kerr was the only guy to guard Best so sometimes Jordan would guard Best.. Otherwise it was Miller all day (Miller pushed of MJ in Game 4 for the historic winner after Pippen's choke).

[Axe]

Op what's kobe's best team? Can they also run the floor with the 2017 cheat-code warriors team?

[ShawkFactory]

No dummy.. Adjustments are made throughout a series - Jordan guarded Miller most of the series, and MJ/Harper were often not on the floor together, and when they were Jordan or Kerr was the only guy to guard Best

Game 4 was similar to game 7 in that respect. Didn’t mention that I’ve seen that one too.

Harper was on Miller when he was on the court aside from the last couple minutes.

[1987_Lakers]

No dummy.. Adjustments are made throughout a series - Jordan guarded Miller most of the series

Furthermore, MJ/Harper were often not on the floor together... And when they were, Jordan or Kerr was the only guy to guard Best so sometimes Jordan would guard Best.. Otherwise it was Miller all day (Miller pushed of MJ in Game 4 for the historic winner after Pippen's choke).

Harper played 32 mpg in that series, to say MJ/Harper were often not on the floor together is flat out retarded.

[3ba11]

Game 4 was similar to game 7 in that respect too. Didn’t mention that I’ve seen that one too.


We can go through the series game by game but it's a waste of time - your article/quote was only notable because it was the EXCEPTION to the rule and a DIVERGENCE from their normal strategy

[1987_Lakers]

Game 4 was similar to game 7 in that respect. Didn’t mention that I’ve seen that one too.

Harper was on Miller when he was on the court aside from the last couple minutes.

Every game of that series started the same, Harper on Reggie with MJ on Mullin. The tape backs it up. 3ball has no damn shame. :lol

[AirBonner]

I feel like 3ball and the 1000’s of games he had watched would know this about the bulls

[3ba11]

I feel like 3ball and the 1000’s of games he had watched would know this about the bulls


Jordan split time defending Rose, McKey, Miller and Best - only Jordan spent major minutes guarding 4 guys.. And Mullin.. that's 5 guys.

So even at 35, he carried a bigger defensive load then Pippen, who only had to defend a 9 ppg point guard (the slowest one ever).

So again, the Warriors demolish the Bulls on paper and seemingly would win - that's fine because Jordan was required to carry the load on both ends for the Bulls to win all their titles anyway..

So that's the only way they win - with MJ carrying the load.. Maybe he couldn't do it, but Jordan's 6/6 and never losing with good teams is a literally the best track record of success in these spots

[RRR3]

Maybe MJ could carry the load successfully like he's done in every Finals, or maybe not - but Jordan's 6/6 and never losing with good teams is a literally the best track record of success in these spots

Btw, if this was the 88-93' Bulls, everyone would've thought that Jordan was the best guy to guard Durant, just like they did Magic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s).. People don't realize that Pippen's only history up until the 91' Playoffs was historic weakness and choking - no one considered him viable for such a big assignment like Magic in his first Finals - so Pippen made a lot of hay off the surprise factor of him doing okay in the Game 2 blowout, , but Jordan was the primary defender throughout the series including the critical fourth quarter & OT of Game 3 that swung the series.
You literally don’t understand how math works. 3>2. It would be a massacre. Shut up you ****ing moron.

[Axe]

Op what's kobe's best team? Can they also run the floor with the 2017 cheat-code warriors team?
Still waiting

[3ba11]

You literally don’t understand how math works. 3>2. It would be a massacre. Shut up you ****ing moron.


The 93' Suns had 3 all-stars and 4 elite talents (Barkley, KJ, Majerle, Dumas)

Yet Jordan beat them with a 2-star team by averaginng 41 in a slow-paced series (89 pace).

Ditto the 3-star Sonics

or the 3 all-star Cavs from 89' (#1 SRS) that Jordan beat with nothing

Or the 91' Lakers (2 all-stars to 1 for Bulls)

And Jordan literally has the best track record ever with good teams (6/6 in Finals.. 6/6 with 1 or 2 seeds... and almost never lost with 1 all-star teammate - no one is remotely close with this)

[Axe]

Op, is kobe bryant and stephen curry both cut from the same cloth? They both went 0/5 in finals mvps during their first five trips to the finals.

[RRR3]

The 93' Suns had 3 all-stars and 4 elite talents (Barkley, KJ, Majerle, Dumas)

Yet Jordan beat them with a 2-star team by averaginng 41 in a slow-paced series (89 pace).

Ditto the 3-star Sonics

or the 3 all-star Cavs from 89' (#1 SRS) that Jordan beat with nothing

Or the 91' Lakers (2 all-stars to 1 for Bulls)

And Jordan literally has the best track record ever with good teams (6/6 in Finals.. 6/6 with 1 or 2 seeds... and almost never lost with 1 all-star teammate - no one is remotely close with this)
Those teams didn’t play modern basketball so it’s irrelevant. It’s a completely different game the 96 Bulls were literally unfamiliar with how to guard a modern team because they didn’t train for it. 4-0 Sweep, all blowouts. Imagine Luc Longley trying to guard Curry on a switch lmfao

[ShawkFactory]

We can go through the series game by game but it's a waste of time - your article/quote was only notable because it was the EXCEPTION to the rule and a DIVERGENCE from their normal strategy

That wasn't me that posted the article, but whatever. I'm going to relitigate this because it's comedy gold.

You said:


MJ guarded Miller for the vast majority of the series in the 98' ECF

You said this because you needed to grossly embellish/lie to further your agenda here (per usual), and you didn't think that anyone would call you on it because well...it was over 20 years ago. You were bluffing thinking that no one watched.

Then that article was posted and you called it a one off "instance". It was then that you mentioned that he spent a lot of time on Best (already starting to back-track).

I then mentioned game 7, and your response was that that game was a one off and a new strategy (back-tracking further). I then mentioned game 4, and your response was to circle back to the article that I didn't even post.

In Summary:

3ball- "mj spent vast majority of the time on Miller"

1987- "well here's this"

3ball- "it was just that one instance!"

Shawk- "I've watched all of game 7 and Harper was the primary"

3ball- "it was just that one game!"

Shawk- "game 4 was very similar. Harper still the primary"

3ball- "STFU"

Clown shit bro.

[Gimmedarock]

I can’t believe this is even a topic. I can’t believe how many threads there are comparing players from 30 plus years ago. I like watching highlights of Mike Tyson but he wouldn’t beat elite fighters today. Athletes evolve. Warriors would’ve beaten the Dream Team bruh. Come on.

[Axe]

I can’t believe this is even a topic. I can’t believe how many threads there are comparing players from 30 plus years ago. I like watching highlights of Mike Tyson but he wouldn’t beat elite fighters today. Athletes evolve. Warriors would’ve beaten the Dream Team bruh. Come on.
What makes this thread even worse is the fact that there's been numerous threads in the past that are of the same exact topic. :oldlol:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?413946-2017-Golden-State-Warriors-vs-1996-Chicago-Bulls

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495209-Do-you-think-the-17-Warriors-could-run-on-the-96-Bulls

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?413578-17-Warriors-vs-96-Bulls

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?418475-More-stacked-96-Bulls-or-17-Warriors

I'm sure there's more of them but that will do.

[MadDog]

Warriors win in 6 or 7 games. Bulls were a defensive powerhouse, but the rules today have handcuffed players. If we transported the 17 Warriors into 96 (when defenses had more impact than an offense) maybe the results would be different. :confusedshrug: Who knows

Either way, Jordan looks better against the Warriors than LeBron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Warriors win in 6 or 7 games. Bulls were a defensive powerhouse, but the rules today have handcuffed players. If we transported the 17 Warriors into 96 (when defenses had more impact than an offense) maybe the results would be different. :confusedshrug: Who knows

Either way, Jordan looks better against the Warriors than LeBron.
You want to say he plays better defensively, fine, but I seriously doubt 33 year old Jordan is putting up better production than LeBron did in that series.

[Axe]

You want to say he plays better defensively, fine, but I seriously doubt 33 year old Jordan is putting up better production than LeBron did in that series.
Production that came as a result of having a team filled mostly with bunch of scrubs.

[MadDog]

You want to say he plays better defensively, fine, but I seriously doubt 33 year old Jordan is putting up better production than LeBron did in that series.

That was basically LeBron's age in 2017. Both players were also in their primes. Jordan is a better player in general, so don't see how he wouldn't look better. Even moreso in a league that's easier to score in.


Production that came as a result of having a team filled mostly with bunch of scrubs.

Good point. Having more rebounds & assists doesn't always mean you're better lol

[Bawkish]

One thing that gets overlooked is that if Splash Bros. could rain down on offense, what's stopping MJ, Pip & Kukoc to do the same? Both teams run almost the same offensive principles (Triangle) and Bulls wings had physical advantage defensively speaking.

Another thing is the mental factor. Could Draymond had the patience to withstand Rodman's antics?

[TheCorporation]

Op, is kobe bryant and stephen curry both cut from the same cloth? They both went 0/5 in finals mvps during their first five trips to the finals.

OP running away once again :lol

[aj1987]

That was basically LeBron's age in 2017. Both players were also in their primes. Jordan is a better player in general, so don't see how he wouldn't look better. Even moreso in a league that's easier to score in.

Good point. Having more rebounds & assists doesn't always mean you're better lol

LeBron averaged 34/12/10/1 on 63%. That's against with Draymond, KD, Klay, and Iggy guarding him. Replace Kyrie with '12 Wade (no '11 or prime Wade, but an injured '12 Wade) and Love with '12 Bosh (again, and injured and not a prime Bosh), The Cavs would steam roll the Warriors. The Cavs had ZERO defense.

[nayte]

Imagine those Warriors playing with the shortened 3 point line :oldlol:

While I would take the warriors in this match up I wonder how the shortened line would effect the game. The Bulls would be able to keep it closer in a way as the wouldn't have to spread the floor as much. Do u think curry and co would still shoot from further out still and ignore the shortened line?

[AirBonner]

While I would take the warriors in this match up I wonder how the shortened line would effect the game. The Bulls would be able to keep it closer in a way as the wouldn't have to spread the floor as much. Do u think curry and co would still shoot from further out still and ignore the shortened line?
Curry can still shoot from logo. Wouldn’t matter

[Gimmedarock]

No team can match the Warriors bruh. Put together an all star team of 80’s & 90’s players and they’d lose to the Warriors. Too many big men playing post up. Three all day baby!! Old team would be grinding but Warriors would be scoring.

[3ba11]

That wasn't me that posted the article, but whatever. I'm going to relitigate this because it's comedy gold.

You said:



You said this because you needed to grossly embellish/lie to further your agenda here (per usual), and you didn't think that anyone would call you on it because well...it was over 20 years ago. You were bluffing thinking that no one watched.

Then that article was posted and you called it a one off "instance". It was then that you mentioned that he spent a lot of time on Best (already starting to back-track).

I then mentioned game 7, and your response was that that game was a one off and a new strategy (back-tracking further). I then mentioned game 4, and your response was to circle back to the article that I didn't even post.

In Summary:

3ball- "mj spent vast majority of the time on Miller"

1987- "well here's this"

3ball- "it was just that one instance!"

Shawk- "I've watched all of game 7 and Harper was the primary"

3ball- "it was just that one game!"

Shawk- "game 4 was very similar. Harper still the primary"

3ball- "STFU"

Clown shit bro.


The original argument was that the Bulls were outmatched on paper vs the 17' Warriors, so Jordan would have to carry the load on both ends, including being the primary defender on the best player like he did with Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton and Miller.

So you singled out the one instance where you can question whether MJ was the primary defender on Miller, as if this invalidates the original point being made - IT DOESN'T - so we're wasting time talking about it, but I will oblige you anyway and talk specifically about the MJ/Miller matchup (see the response below)..

but REGARDLESS of the Miller matchup, the point remains - for the Bulls to beat the superior on-paper team (Warriors), Jordan would have to carry the load on both ends like he did for all his titles - this includes carrying the scoreboard and being the primary defender on the opponent's best player.








the MJ/Miller matchup






Jordan split time defending Rose, McKey, Miller and Best - only Jordan spent major minutes guarding 4 guys.. And Mullin.. that's 5 guys.

So even at 35, he carried a bigger defensive load then Pippen, who only had to defend a 9 ppg point guard (the slowest one ever).. that's why Jordan was #4 for DPOY in 98' and Pippen only 9th.

So again, the Warriors demolish the Bulls on paper and seemingly would win - that's fine because Jordan was required to carry the load on both ends for the Bulls to win all their titles anyway..

So that's the only way they win - with MJ carrying the load.. Maybe he couldn't do it, but Jordan's 6/6 and never losing with good teams is a literally the best track record of success in these spots

[HoopsNY]

No team can match the Warriors bruh. Put together an all star team of 80’s & 90’s players and they’d lose to the Warriors. Too many big men playing post up. Three all day baby!! Old team would be grinding but Warriors would be scoring.

The 2018 Rockets were up 3-2 and Chris Paul got hurt. That series went to 7 games. The '96 Bulls have better perimeter defenders and can play with a smaller lineup (Kukoc, Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, Harper).

Not saying this makes Chicago a lock to win, but it does give them a chance given the sample of 2018.

[3ba11]

The 2018 Rockets were up 3-2 and Chris Paul got hurt. That series went to 7 games. The '96 Bulls have better perimeter defenders and can play with a smaller lineup (Kukoc, Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, Harper).

Not saying this makes Chicago a lock to win, but it does give them a chance given the sample of 2018.


Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals and 16.9 on 39% for those playoffs overall.

So the only way the outmatched Bulls win is if Jordan completely carries the load like always - Pippen never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series, so the Bulls won by having MJ always carry the load.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals and 16.9 on 39% for those playoffs overall.

So the only way the outmatched Bulls win is if Jordan completely carries the load like always - Pippen never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series, so the Bulls won by having MJ always carry the load.
He'll just repeat the same lie he was just called out for earlier in the thread :lol

[3ba11]

He'll just repeat the same lie he was just called out for earlier in the thread :lol


You're making up some shit to derail from the facts I just posted.

[HoopsNY]

Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals and 16.9 on 39% for those playoffs overall.

So the only way the outmatched Bulls win is if Jordan completely carries the load like always - Pippen never got within 10 ppg of Jordan in any series, so the Bulls won by having MJ always carry the load.

Yea I'm not talking about injuries though. Barring injuries on either side, Chicago stands a good chance of winning.

Another thing that people don't factor in is that Chicago was also a solid three point shooting team. The '96 team shot it at a 40% clip, 3rd in the league. Now that's with a shortened line, but even in '94 they were 4th in the league at 35%, and in '93 they were 2nd in the league at 37%.

The '93 team had BJ Armstrong, but the '96 team had Steve Kerr. So that balances out, really. When you add to the fact that Chicago was a great perimeter defensive team, then they can neutralize Steph/Klay.

[SouBeachTalents]

You're making up some shit to derail from the facts I just posted.
You literally conceded you were lying about that earlier in the thread

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500962-On-paper-the-17-Warriors-demolish-the-96-Bulls&p=14517288&viewfull=1#post14517288

Then you repeat it anyway :lol

[3ba11]

Yea I'm not talking about injuries though. Barring injuries on either side, Chicago stands a good chance of winning.

Another thing that people don't factor in is that Chicago was also a solid three point shooting team. The '96 team shot it at a 40% clip, 3rd in the league. Now that's with a shortened line, but even in '94 they were 4th in the league at 35%, and in '93 they were 2nd in the league at 37%.

The '93 team had BJ Armstrong, but the '96 team had Steve Kerr. So that balances out, really. When you add to the fact that Chicago was a great perimeter defensive team, then they can neutralize Steph/Klay.


Who said anything about injuries?

Pippen had those numbers for the entire 2nd three-peat playoffs (17 on 40%) and 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals

The Warriors simply destroy the Bulls on paper, so MJ would have to carry the load like he always did to win..

Everyone in history had teammates match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas MJ led every SERIES by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over the 2nd leading scorer (for all the series in his career).

Accordingly, no one carried teams like Jordan, and that's the only way they beat any team, let alone the Warriors

[HoopsNY]

Who said anything about injuries?

Pippen had those numbers for the entire 2nd three-peat playoffs (17 on 40%) and 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals

The Warriors simply destroy the Bulls on paper, so MJ would have to carry the load like he always did to win..

Everyone in history had teammates match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas MJ led every SERIES by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over the 2nd leading scorer (for all the series in his career).

Accordingly, no one carried teams like Jordan, and that's the only way they beat any team, let alone the Warriors

lol, carry on 3ball. I'm not going to entertain your Pippen bashing when you're not open to anyone's analysis.

[ShawkFactory]

So you singled out the one instance where you can question whether MJ was the primary defender on Miller


No...


MJ guarded Miller for the vast majority of the series in the 98' ECF

^You did

You don't have to lie to make your points.

[3ba11]

No...



^You did

You don't have to lie to make your points.


You ran from the argument and derailed into a debate about whether one OF THE SIX examples I gave is legitimate.

That is a derail by any definition

If you weren't going to refute the point being made (that MJ had to carry the Bulls for them to win), then why respond at all?.. Only an immature person would purposely derail like you did

[ShawkFactory]

You ran from the argument and derailed into a debate about whether one OF THE SIX examples I gave is legitimate.

That is a derail by any definition

If you weren't going to refute the point being made (that MJ had to carry the Bulls for them to win), then why respond at all?.. Only an immature person would purposely derail like you did

No, I pointed out that you were spewing factually incorrect information. It wasn't a debate.

Again, you don't need to lie to make your points. Simply stating that he took a huge burden guarding the opposing teams best player most of the time or in 4 of 6 finals or whatever is enough.

[3ba11]

No, I pointed out that you were spewing factually incorrect information. It wasn't a debate.

Again, you don't need to lie to make your points. Simply stating that he took a huge burden guarding the opposing teams best player most of the time in 4 of 6 finals is enough.


It isn't factually incorrect to say that Jordan was usually the primary defender on the opponent's best player.

That's a fact.

You questioning 1 of the 6 examples that I gave is a derail, and therefore immature, weak, soft, whatever you want to call it

[ShawkFactory]

It isn't factually incorrect to say that Jordan was usually the primary defender on the opponent's best player.

That's a fact.

You questioning 1 of the 6 examples that I gave is a derail, and therefore immature, weak, soft, whatever you want to call it

You're a child.

[3ba11]

You're a child.


Says the guy that never once addressed the point being made and instead derailed based on a minor detail.. that's immature AND low character, smh... And you responded a zillion times to derail

[ShawkFactory]

Says the guy that never once addressed the point being made and instead derailed based on a minor detail.. that's immature AND low character, smh

Who says I even disagree with the point being made?

You were trying to make a point that no one really disagrees with in the first place (which is something you do frequently and I'm not sure why), thought you could get away with saying something false to support it, got called on it, tried to backtrack but couldn't, and now you're back to trying to push the initial point that no one disagrees with.

Weird shit.

[3ba11]

Who says I even disagree with the point being made?

You were trying to make a point that no one really disagrees with in the first place (which is something you do frequently and I'm not sure why), thought you could get away with saying something false to support it, got called on it, tried to backtrack but couldn't, and now you're back to trying to push the initial point that no one disagrees with.

Weird shit.


I said that Jordan was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton and Miller - you disagreed with 1 of them and that makes me a liar?

That makes you a derailer

And btw, the main point that you guys always make is that Jordan DIDN'T carry the Bulls and had a lot of help.. So don't pretend to agree now that he infact carried the load more than anyone else

[ShawkFactory]

I said that Jordan was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton and Miller - you disagreed with 1 of them and that makes me a liar?

That makes you a derailer

And btw, the main point that you guys always make is that Jordan DIDN'T carry the Bulls and had a lot of help.. So don't pretend to agree now that he infact carried the load more than anyone else

No, you said:

MJ guarded Miller for the vast majority of the series in the 98' ECF - no amount of history revision by you will change that obvious fact

Someone refuted that and you doubled down. By doing so, YOU are the one who derailed your point. If you could have just accepted that you were wrong then everyone could have moved on.

[3ba11]

No, you said:


Someone refuted that and you doubled down. By doing so, YOU are the one who derailed your point. If you could have just accepted that you were wrong then everyone could have moved on.


Yes that was your derail - to argue over a meaningless issue that didn't alter the point being made

Now you're trying to defend your derail, which makes you sociopathic

[tpols]

Even MJ can't overcome Durant and Curry averaging 50+ ppg. And then you have klay matching Pippens production and dray and iggy doing the same things defensively and playmaking wise as Pippen as well.

Jordan would have to go for 50-60 points every game to beat them with a 16 ppg pippen.

[FKAri]

"MJ and KD cancel each other for the purposes of this discussion:"
...
"Bulls win cuz of MJ"

Retarded :oldlol:

[RRR3]

"MJ and KD cancel each other for the purposes of this discussion:"
...
"Bulls win cuz of MJ"

Retarded :oldlol:
It’s honestly incredible how stupid he is. Imagine how dumb you have to be to be bad at arguing Michael Jordan is the GOAT

[3ba11]

"MJ and KD cancel each other for the purposes of this discussion:"
...
"Bulls win cuz of MJ"

Retarded :oldlol:


I never said the bulls win because of MJ - I said that's the only way for the Bulls to win since that's how they always won and they're ridiculously outmatched everywhere else in this matchup

Basically, he's literally going to need another 41 ppg to win again.

So would the 36/7/8 on 53% caliber from the 91-93' Finals be enough to win?.. I think so and very easily I might add.

[Gimmedarock]

KD & MJ don’t cancel each other out. KD is getting his sheen he want it. Who’s going to slow him? Pippen might make him work but he’s still going to scoring. MJ would be guarded by Klay probably. He’s not getting 50 on Klay. I’d say 30 at best. Warriors have 3 guys who could all get 40. Bulls have MJ. No way the Bulls win more than a game.

[3ba11]

KD & MJ don’t cancel each other out. KD is getting his sheen he want it. Who’s going to slow him? Pippen might make him work but he’s still going to scoring. MJ would be guarded by Klay probably. He’s not getting 50 on Klay. I’d say 30 at best. Warriors have 3 guys who could all get 40. Bulls have MJ. No way the Bulls win more than a game.


https://media.giphy.com/media/30KRmRhU0f8Q0/giphy.gif


The 1991 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.V_L49-ArLIW) and 1992 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck) Philadelphia 76'er media guides show that Majerle got 70 dunks in 1991, and 72 dunks in 1992 (top 10% of the league) - this is far more than Klay's career high of 21 dunks in 2015.

Majerle's higher dunk total occurred when league-wide dunk frequency was lower, as shown here (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12555171&postcount=86) (1 dunk every 23.8 shots in 1992, compared to 1 every 22.6 shots in 2014).

Why is this important?... Because people were wondering whether MJ could average 50 on Klay - he obviously could, since he averaged 41 on Majerle, who was a superior athlete and all-nba defender (47/10/6 in Games 2-4.. and also got 36 on Drexler in 92').

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

I got bulls in 6.

Jordan and pippen would lock up curry. Pippen would full court press curry and Jordan would eat him alive in the half court like LeBron did in 16

Rodman would get in durants head

Jordan would be easily the best player on the court

[Phoenix]

I never said the bulls win because of MJ - I said that's the only way for the Bulls to win since that's how they always won and they're ridiculously outmatched everywhere else in this matchup

Basically, he's literally going to need another 41 ppg to win again.

So would the 36/7/8 on 53% caliber from the 91-93' Finals be enough to win?.. I think so and very easily I might add.

You make 30 threads a day talking about Pippen being a shit scorer. You're saying MJ could drop 41 ppg or whatever( his highest PPG in the 2nd 3peat was 37ppg against the Bullets on account of the 55 pointer). This is with him having to chase around either Steph or Klay, since the Bulls wouldn't have the luxury of conserving MJ defensively in this series. In all likelyhood MJ will get his 30, which is likely matched by KD. Curry probably drops like 27 and Klay his 20-22. Pippen and Kukoc aren't matching that scoring as the #2 and #3 scorers for the Bulls.

This series is a math problem that doesn't favor Chicago.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes that was your derail - to argue over a meaningless issue that didn't alter the point being made

Now you're trying to defend your derail, which makes you sociopathic

You have such a feminine argument style.

[SouBeachTalents]

You make 30 threads a day talking about Pippen being a shit scorer. You're saying MJ could drop 41 ppg or whatever( his highest PPG in the 2nd 3peat was 37ppg against the Bullets on account of the 55 pointer). This is with him having to chase around either Steph or Klay, since the Bulls wouldn't have the luxury of conserving MJ defensively in this series. In all likelyhood MJ will get his 30, which is likely matched by KD. Curry probably drops like 27 and Klay his 20-22. Pippen and Kukoc aren't matching that scoring as the #2 and #3 scorers for the Bulls.

This series is a math problem that doesn't favor Chicago.
Exactly, the dipshit is talking about '93 Jordan averaging 41 when the discussion is the '96 Bulls :lol Not even apex Jordan could compete scoring wise with peak Durant AND Curry. The 33 year old version, when he'd have to exert full effort on the defensive end? Not a chance.

[3ba11]

You have such a feminine argument style.


See that's totally fair.. You're getting it .. just don't derail

[Phoenix]

Exactly, the dipshit is talking about '93 Jordan averaging 41 when the discussion is the '96 Bulls :lol Not even apex Jordan could compete scoring wise with peak Durant AND Curry. The 33 year old version, when he'd have to exert full effort on the defensive end? Not a chance.

The reality is the Bulls defense won't prevent at least one of those guys from having a comparable scoring output to MJ...my guess being KD....and 3bot is already on record( 30k posts worth of record) that Scottie was an inadequate scorer so he's not going to produce the volume of the number 2 scorer for the Warriors( Steph) and may not even match the scoring of the number 3 scorer( Klay). So 3bot has to concoct some pie in the sky idea that MJ will drop 50ppg( because he dropped 41 on Majerle and since Thunder Dan was a better athlete than Klay that means MJ will drop an extra 9ppg on him blah blah bullshit bullshit etc etc.....). Basically, end of prime MJ will have to produce a number he never produced even at his apex, while having to be accountable on defense against the most prolific shooting/scoring backcourt in the history of the NBA.

[3ba11]

You make 30 threads a day talking about Pippen being a shit scorer. You're saying MJ could drop 41 ppg or whatever( his highest PPG in the 2nd 3peat was 37ppg against the Bullets on account of the 55 pointer). This is with him having to chase around either Steph or Klay, since the Bulls wouldn't have the luxury of conserving MJ defensively in this series. In all likelyhood MJ will get his 30, which is likely matched by KD. Curry probably drops like 27 and Klay his 20-22. Pippen and Kukoc aren't matching that scoring as the #2 and #3 scorers for the Bulls.

This series is a math problem that doesn't favor Chicago.


MJ dropped 41 in 93' because he knew that Phoenix had 4 elite talents that could each drop 20, and he only had 1 teammate that could get 20 (on literally woat efficiency in those Finals & playoffs).

MJ would take this same high-scoring approach against the stacked Warriors

Furthermore, when Jordan averaged 40 and Pippen got his 20 on weak efficiency, this resulted in 113.0 team ortg - so the question is could the Bulls hold those Warriors to a 113 ortg

[Phoenix]

MJ dropped 41 in 93' because he knew that Phoenix had 4 elite talents that could each drop 20, and he only had 1 teammate that could get 20 (on literally woat efficiency in those Finals & playoffs).

MJ would take this same high-scoring approach against the stacked Warriors

Furthermore, when Jordan averaged 40 and Pippen got his 20 on weak efficiency, this resulted in 113.0 team ortg - so the question is could the Bulls hold those Warriors to a 113 ortg

Ok, so MJ scores 41ppg and Pippen scores 20ppg( never mind that you've mentioned his 17ppg 40% 2nd 3peat averages 10,000 times and the Warriors were an elite defense, but whatever). Ignoring all reality, and playing out this scenario like we're playing 2k22 and you disabled fatigue so that MJ can score at his peak levels while having the energy to chase around Klay and/or Steph, that's 61 points. How much are you assuming KD/Steph/Klay score respectively?

[SouBeachTalents]

We calling Richard Dumas an elite talent now? Jesus Christ :oldlol:

And again, the doofus keeps talking about '93 when the thread is about the '96 Bulls.

[Hey Yo]

https://media.giphy.com/media/30KRmRhU0f8Q0/giphy.gif


The 1991 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=qpikcz&s=8#.V_L49-ArLIW) and 1992 (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=iwox8i&s=8#.VI_7OSvF_Ck) Philadelphia 76'er media guides show that Majerle got 70 dunks in 1991, and 72 dunks in 1992 (top 10% of the league) - this is far more than Klay's career high of 21 dunks in 2015.

Majerle's higher dunk total occurred when league-wide dunk frequency was lower, as shown here (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12555171&postcount=86) (1 dunk every 23.8 shots in 1992, compared to 1 every 22.6 shots in 2014).

Why is this important?... Because people were wondering whether MJ could average 50 on Klay - he obviously could, since he averaged 41 on Majerle, who was a superior athlete and all-nba defender (47/10/6 in Games 2-4.. and also got 36 on Drexler in 92').

This is about 96 MJ, not 93..... keep up

[3ba11]

Ok, so MJ scores 41 and Pippen scores 20( never mind that you've mentioned his 17ppg 40% 2nd 3peat averages 10,000 times, but whatever). That's 61 points. How much are you assuming KD/Steph/Klay score respectively?


Again, Jordan dropped 41 SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE he knew his roster was outmatched

He would take this same gunner approach against the stacked Warriors.

With Jordan at 40 and Pippen at 20, this yielded a 113.0 ortg, so the question is could the Bulls hold those Warriors to a 113 ortg... 114.5 is what Houston held the Warriors to but I have more faith in MJ than Harden.

[Phoenix]

We calling Richard Dumas an elite talent now? Jesus Christ :oldlol:

And again, the doofus keeps talking about '93 when the thread is about the '96 Bulls.

93 MJ and 96 MJ are the same player, and KJ/Majerle presents the same challenge as Steph/Klay. And Dumas is about the same threat level as Durant. Remind me again why we're entertaining this nutcase?

[Hey Yo]

Drop that GS team in 1996 and they avg. 25 three pointers made per game with the shortened line.

[3ba11]

We calling Richard Dumas an elite talent now? Jesus Christ :oldlol:

And again, the doofus keeps talking about '93 when the thread is about the '96 Bulls.


Why would you act like this is preposterous?

It was common knowledge that Dumas was a budding star that put up 14' Kawhi stats (16 on 57%) as 4th option in those Finals:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk&t=07m40s

[ShawkFactory]

See that's totally fair.. You're getting it .. just don't derail

No I mean like right now. Not your actual points.

[3ba11]

93 MJ and 96 MJ are the same player, and KJ/Majerle presents the same challenge as Steph/Klay. And Dumas is about the same threat level as Durant. Remind me again why we're entertaining this nutcase?


We agree that the Bulls cannot win if MJ doesn't completely dominate

That's certainly true and that was always true for the Bulls' titles (my overriding point)

But if MJ does it - if he averages 35-40 or dominates relative to his competition (27 ppg was monster in the 96' Finals), then the Bulls will have the game flow edge and win, especially with MJ dominating the clutch possessions.

[Phoenix]

Again, Jordan dropped 41 SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE he knew his roster was outmatched

He would take this same gunner approach against the stacked Warriors.

With Jordan at 40 and Pippen at 20, this yielded a 113.0 ortg, so the question is could the Bulls hold those Warriors to a 113 ortg... 114.5 is what Houston held the Warriors to but I have more faith in MJ than Harden.

Oh so Pippen is going to drop 20ppg in this series? This is the same Pippen who dropped 15ppg on 34% against the Sonics. You're saying he's dropping 20ppg on the Warriors seeing some combination of Draymond, KD and Iggy defensively at various points?

How much is KD/Steph/Klay scoring respectively since you're fine telling us what Jordan/Pippen score?

[Phoenix]

We agree that the Bulls cannot win if MJ doesn't completely dominate

That's certainly true and that was always true (my overriding point)

But if MJ averages 35-40 or dominates relative to his competition (27 ppg was monster in the 96' Finals), then the Bulls will have the game flow edge and win, especially with MJ dominating the clutch.

If MJ drops 35, how much is KD dropping? Steph? Klay? Plan on answering that anytime soon?

[3ba11]

If MJ drops 35, how much is KD dropping? Steph? Klay. Plan on answering that anytime soon?


It's an attrition battle - the side that applies more pressure wears out the other team.

So if MJ is playing like he did against the 88' Bad Boys (not completely dominating), then the Bulls are on their heels and getting worn down by the Warriors' superior attack.. The Bulls will have more tired legs and less mental optimism, so they will be less likely to go off offensively than the Warriors.

Otoh, if MJ is completely dominating like the Bulls need and always needed, then that means he's wearing down the Warriors more than they're wearing out the Bulls - 35-40 from Jordan would have the Warriors on their heels, which takes away from Curry/Klay's capacity.. So if MJ takes over, then Klay/Curry would choke just like 2016 - they would be more like role players as KD/MJ decide the series. I like MJ in that scenario (6/6)

Btw, 35-40 from MJ comes with BALL MOVEMENT and superior brand of ball - his more effective strategy as a team is already wearing out the Warriors more than Lebron's ball-dominant, your-turn-my-turn 35 ppg - this ball-dominant approach lets the defense rest, and ultimately gets it's doors blown off.

[RRR3]

Oh so Pippen is going to drop 20ppg in this series? This is the same Pippen who dropped 15ppg on 34% against the Sonics. You're saying he's dropping 20ppg on the Warriors seeing some combination of Draymond, KD and Iggy defensively at various points?

How much is KD/Steph/Klay scoring respectively since you're fine telling us what Jordan/Pippen score?
Caught his ass

[3ba11]

Oh so Pippen is going to drop 20ppg in this series? This is the same Pippen who dropped 15ppg on 34% against the Sonics. You're saying he's dropping 20ppg on the Warriors seeing some combination of Draymond, KD and Iggy defensively at various points?

How much is KD/Steph/Klay scoring respectively since you're fine telling us what Jordan/Pippen score?


I agree that Pippen will drop the ball and suck like he did during the 2nd three-peat Playoffs or 93' Playoffs, or 88-90 or 99-03'... Basically his entire career..

But see post #127 for how Jordan's typical domination might be enough to wear out the Warriors' defense more than the Bulls are getting worn down - the team that gets worn down more will have less capacity for offense (lose the attrition battle).. It wouldn't be the first time Curry/Klay lose the attrition battle and this time they would be facing a far superior brand of ball - a juggernaut favorite that wears teams out with ball movement, defense and MJ.

[coastalmarker99]

Rodman was terrible from the free-throw and wasn't a threat in the Bulls offence.

The 2017 Warriors can either hack a Rodman or leave him completely wide open to double team Jordan.

I doubt Rodman will have stayed long enough in a game versus the Warriors.

The Warriors would have taken advantage of his weaknesses and ran him off the court.

[coastalmarker99]

I agree that Pippen will drop the ball and suck like he did during the 2nd three-peat Playoffs or 93' Playoffs, or 88-90 or 99-03'... Basically his entire career..

But see post #127 for how Jordan's typical domination might be enough to wear out the Warriors' defense more than the Bulls are getting worn down - the team that gets worn down more will have less capacity for offense (lose the attrition battle).. It wouldn't be the first time Curry/Klay lose the attrition battle and this time they would be facing a far superior brand of ball - a juggernaut favorite that wears teams out with ball movement, defense and MJ.

Jordan's playstyle would have been neutralized by the 2017 Warriors' defense.

The 2017 Warriors ran many sophisticated defensive schemes to clamp down on isolation plays. Jordan would have a problem posting Iggy, Thompson, Durant, Livingston, and Green.

He would have to play off the ball and start his attack from the perimeter to have his way with the Warriors.

The moment the Bulls run a post-play for Jordan, Steph will be there to snatch the ball from him.


Steph's defensive assignment is to watch where the opposing teams move the ball and he can play one-on-one defense and set up a trap for any ball-dominant player.

[Indian guy]

They would demolish '96 Bulls on court too. '17 Warriors are comfortably the GOAT team in NBA history.

[HoopsNY]

Even MJ can't overcome Durant and Curry averaging 50+ ppg. And then you have klay matching Pippens production and dray and iggy doing the same things defensively and playmaking wise as Pippen as well.

Jordan would have to go for 50-60 points every game to beat them with a 16 ppg pippen.

Pippen was injured during that postseason. Barring all injuries, then it's not outlandish. Shaq and Penny put up 50+ PPG in the '96 ECF and Orlando got swept.

Rodman doesn't stop KD, but he certainly can slow him down. Steph and Klay are spotty in big games and we've seen this a lot, including series against inferior defensive players. So what about a Pippen/MJ/Harper trio?

Chicago has the ability to play a smaller lineup with Kukoc and Rodman at the 4 and 5, and have shooters like Kerr, Buechler, Kukoc, and MJ.

The real question is, which rules are being implemented, pre or post 2004-05? If it's pre-2004, then Chicago stands a much better chance. Post and it's likely GS' series for the taking.

[RRR3]

Pippen was injured during that postseason. Barring all injuries, then it's not outlandish. Shaq and Penny put up 50+ PPG in the '96 ECF and Orlando got swept.

Rodman doesn't stop KD, but he certainly can slow him down. Steph and Klay are spotty in big games and we've seen this a lot, including series against inferior defensive players. So what about a Pippen/MJ/Harper trio?

Chicago has the ability to play a smaller lineup with Kukoc and Rodman at the 4 and 5, and have shooters like Kerr, Buechler, Kukoc, and MJ.

The real question is, which rules are being implemented, pre or post 2004-05? If it's pre-2004, then Chicago stands a much better chance. Post and it's likely GS' series for the taking.
It doesn't matter what rules you play under if one team is spamming 3s with the 2 GOAT shooters+Kevin ****ing Durant and the other isn't lmao. And a shortened 3point line? That makes KD even more OP. Math just doesn't add up, and Longley and Rodman would be unplayable to boot.

[HoopsNY]

It doesn't matter what rules you play under if one team is spamming 3s with the 2 GOAT shooters+Kevin ****ing Durant and the other isn't lmao. And a shortened 3point line? That makes KD even more OP. Math just doesn't add up, and Longley and Rodman would be unplayable to boot.

You can't spam from the distance as easily with pre 2004-05 rules. That style of play simply doesn't allow it when players can put their hands on you and harass you on the perimeter. Not to mention, a shorter line allows for faster close-outs.

Not sure why Longley and Rodman would be unplayable when GS had a guy like Looney starting in the Rockets series. And Chicago could run a lineup with Rodman and Kukoc at the 4 and 5.

I don't understand this logic; the '96 Bulls would get annihilated, but somehow the Rockets in 2018 took that same GS lineup from 2017 to 7 games? They were up 3-2 and lost Chris Paul for games 6 and 7. What happens if Paul plays?

And miss me with the three point shooting. Chicago was 3rd in the league in three point shooting in 1996. Even in 1993 and 1994, before the shortened line, Chicago was 2nd and 5th in the league in three point shooting. In 1993, they shot the ball at nearly a 37% clip. We forgetting the '96 team had Steve Kerr off the bench?

And setting all of that aside, how are people conveniently forgetting that the Rockets were up 3-2 in the WCF, despite shooting just 33% from the distance in the first 5 games?

So if GS sweeps them, then what does Houston do with Chris Paul? A sweep, too?

[RRR3]

You can't spam from the distance as easily with pre 2004-05 rules. That style of play simply doesn't allow it when players can put their hands on you and harass you on the perimeter. Not to mention, a shorter line allows for faster close-outs.

Not sure why Longley and Rodman would be unplayable when GS had a guy like Looney starting in the Rockets series. And Chicago could run a lineup with Rodman and Kukoc at the 4 and 5.

I don't understand this logic; the '96 Bulls would get annihilated, but somehow the Rockets in 2018 took that same GS lineup from 2017 to 7 games? They were up 3-2 and lost Chris Paul for games 6 and 7. What happens if Paul plays?

And miss me with the three point shooting. Chicago was 3rd in the league in three point shooting in 1996. Even in 1993 and 1994, before the shortened line, Chicago was 2nd and 5th in the league in three point shooting. In 1993, they shot the ball at nearly a 37% clip. We forgetting the '96 team had Steve Kerr off the bench?

And setting all of that aside, how are people conveniently forgetting that the Rockets were up 3-2 in the WCF, despite shooting just 33% from the distance in the first 5 games?

So if GS sweeps them, then what does Houston do with Chris Paul? A sweep, too?
Curry shoots from 40 feet away, the Bulls wouldn't even have their defense set by the time he shoots :roll:

The Rockets played like a modern team :facepalm

No one is saying the 96 Bulls would have no chance if they were adapted to playing modern basketball but the fact is they weren't and would thus have no clue how to deal with Curry. Warriors made Rudy Gobert unplayable but they'd have trouble with Luc Longley? :lol Like someone else said too, Rodman and/or Harper are getting left open to swarm MJ. Recipe for disaster.

[HoopsNY]

Curry shoots from 40 feet away, the Bulls wouldn't even have their defense set by the time he shoots :roll:

Chicago was known for full-court, 3/4 court, and half court presses. And the majority of Steph's 3s aren't from 40 feet.


The Rockets played like a modern team :facepalm

You're dodging my point with regards to that. Houston shot 33.5% in the first 5 games of that series from three point land. They were up 3-2, and then Chris Paul got injured.


No one is saying the 96 Bulls would have no chance if they were adapted to playing modern basketball but the fact is they weren't and would thus have no clue how to deal with Curry. Warriors made Rudy Gobert unplayable but they'd have trouble with Luc Longley? :lol Like someone else said too, Rodman and/or Harper are getting left open to swarm MJ. Recipe for disaster.

You act as if Steph has risen to the occasion his entire career in the playoffs. Let's take a look at Steph's stats the first 5 games before Paul got injured:

2018 WCF (first 5 games): 23.8 PPG | 6.4 Rebs | 4.8 Assists | 46.0% FGs | 32.6 3P%

You got anything else or do you wanna continue to act like Steph was some invincible "warrior"?

[SouBeachTalents]

Tbf though you're harping on one series from 2018 in a discussion about the 2017 team. Same roster sure, but that team wasn't as good as the 2017 one. It'd be like bringing up what happened to the '02 Lakers, '87 Celtics or '88 Lakers in a discussion about their more heralded predecessors. They all virtually had the same roster, but each team was noticeably worse than they were the previous season.

[StrongLurk]

Chicago was known for full-court, 3/4 court, and half court presses. And the majority of Steph's 3s aren't from 40 feet.



You're dodging my point with regards to that. Houston shot 33.5% in the first 5 games of that series from three point land. They were up 3-2, and then Chris Paul got injured.



You act as if Steph has risen to the occasion his entire career in the playoffs. Let's take a look at Steph's stats the first 5 games before Paul got injured:

2018 WCF (first 5 games): 23.8 PPG | 6.4 Rebs | 4.8 Assists | 46.0% FGs | 32.6 3P%

You got anything else or do you wanna continue to act like Steph was some invincible "warrior"?

Why are you talking about the 2018 Warriors? The 2017 version was their best version and that's what the thread is about.

[HoopsNY]

Tbf though you're harping on one series from 2018 in a discussion about the 2017 team. Same roster sure, but that team wasn't as good as the 2017 one. It'd be like bringing up what happened to the '02 Lakers, '87 Celtics or '88 Lakers in a discussion about their more heralded predecessors. They all virtually had the same roster, but each team was noticeably worse than they were the previous season.


Why are you talking about the 2018 Warriors? The 2017 version was their best version and that's what the thread is about.

Because they're the same team, ultimately. The 2017 Warriors were fortunate that Kawhi went down in game one of the WCF. Let's not forget that SA was up by 25 before the intentional injury in the 3rd quarter. SA wins that game easy and sets the tone for the rest of the series. This isn't to say that SA wins that series, but the dominance of the 2017 Warriors looks a lot different if they win 4-2 or 4-3, as opposed to 4-0.

They then got lucky in 2018 with the Paul injury. GS was feasting on diminished teams and that's why their dominance is overstated.

A lot of people look at the 2017 team that had 67 wins and think they were light years ahead of the 2018 team (58 wins), but they don't account for the myriad of injuries that the starting lineup had.

Here's a list of games missed by their big 4:

KD: 14 games
Steph: 31 games
Draymond: 12 games
Klay: 10 games

GS had a 66 win pace with Steph on the court.

The teams were not that far apart.

[Phoenix]

It's an attrition battle - the side that applies more pressure wears out the other team.

So if MJ is playing like he did against the 88' Bad Boys (not completely dominating), then the Bulls are on their heels and getting worn down by the Warriors' superior attack.. The Bulls will have more tired legs and less mental optimism, so they will be less likely to go off offensively than the Warriors.

Otoh, if MJ is completely dominating like the Bulls need and always needed, then that means he's wearing down the Warriors more than they're wearing out the Bulls - 35-40 from Jordan would have the Warriors on their heels, which takes away from Curry/Klay's capacity.. So if MJ takes over, then Klay/Curry would choke just like 2016 - they would be more like role players as KD/MJ decide the series. I like MJ in that scenario (6/6)

Btw, 35-40 from MJ comes with BALL MOVEMENT and superior brand of ball - his more effective strategy as a team is already wearing out the Warriors more than Lebron's ball-dominant, your-turn-my-turn 35 ppg - this ball-dominant approach lets the defense rest, and ultimately gets it's doors blown off.

You realize that the 2017 Warriors have that exact same ball movement and brand of ball going for them, except with a trio of scorers that are collectively more lethal than MJ/Pippen/Kukoc? MJ in 96 wasn't averaging 35-40 in the playoffs and he wasn't dealing with anywhere near the backcourt of Klay and Curry. 'Bad' series from those guys will still result in them putting up 20+ ppg even if their efficiency suffers.....then there's KD at the absolute peak of his powers.

[Indian guy]

Because they're the same team, ultimately.

You do realize you can diminish pretty much any all-time great team in NBA history by following your logic, right?

1984 76ers couldn't even past the 1st round. That '83 team clearly wasn't all that.
1987 Celtics played 2 consecutive 7 game series' before even facing LA in the Finals. Clearly that '86 team wasn't all that.
1988 Lakers played 3 consecutive 7 game series'. Yikes! Why do we hold the '87 team in such high esteem??
2002 Lakers were taken to 7 games in the WCF and were fortunate to even win that. 2001 was clearly a fluke.
2015 Spurs didn't make even make it past the 1st round. Why is the 2014 team considered an ATG?

You see how easy it is? But we don't do that, right? Clearly we all understand that even if the rosters were the same, there is something special each team had in their MORE successful season that differentiated them from their other versions. Usually it's a combination of being younger, healthier and hungrier. Those 3 attributes definitely apply to 2017 GSW over their 2018 selves. Mind you, them being taken to 7 games by Houston in 2018 should hardly be seen as a knock against their undisputed GOAT status. 2018 Houston were a 65-win juggernaut and had one of the GOAT regular seasons in NBA history. They would've won the championship in most other seasons.

[HoopsNY]

You realize that the 2017 Warriors have that exact same ball movement and brand of ball going for them, except with a trio of scorers that are collectively more lethal than MJ/Pippen/Kukoc? MJ in 96 wasn't averaging 35-40 in the playoffs and he wasn't dealing with anywhere near the backcourt of Klay and Curry. 'Bad' series from those guys will still result in them putting up 20+ ppg even if their efficiency suffers.....then there's KD at the absolute peak of his powers.

Yea, but what happens if Chicago is at full capacity. In 1996, Harper had the thigh injury, Kukoc was injured and missed almost all of the ECSF, MJ played with back spasms, and Pippen had a bad back that messed up him up from the second half of the season onward, including the playoffs.

Kukoc averaged 13 PPG off the bench in the regular season on 49% in just 26 minutes of play. His Per 36 was 18/6/5. What's he doing at full capacity in a free flowing era in the playoffs like now? Let's look at Klay's in both postseasons:

'17 Per 36: 15.4 PPG | .397 FG%
'18 Per 36: 18.7 PPG | .465 FG%

This isn't to say that Kukoc outperforms Klay, but Klay didn't go up against perimeter defenders (at full capacity) to the likes of Rodman-Harper-MJ-Pippen, either.

Forget about what 3ball said. I think the fact that Kawhi went down in 2017 made GS' dominance look better than it actually was. The 2018 series against Houston exposed that because they went up against a better team; a team that lost CP3 while they were up 3-2, despite that team shooting just 33.5% from the distance, aka the "modern team".

[HoopsNY]

You do realize you can diminish pretty much any all-time great team in NBA history by following your logic, right?

1984 76ers couldn't even past the 1st round. That '83 team clearly wasn't all that.
1987 Celtics played 2 consecutive 7 game series' before even facing LA in the Finals. Clearly that '86 team wasn't all that.
1988 Lakers played 3 consecutive 7 game series'. Yikes! Why do we hold the '87 team in such high esteem??
2002 Lakers were taken to 7 games in the WCF and were fortunate to even win that. 2001 was clearly a fluke.
2015 Spurs didn't make even make it past the 1st round. Why is the 2014 team considered an ATG?

You see how easy it is? But we don't do that, right? Clearly we all understand that even if the rosters were the same, there is something special each team had in their MORE successful season that differentiated them from their other versions. Usually it's a combination of being younger, healthier and hungrier. Those 3 attributes definitely apply to 2017 GSW over their 2018 selves. Mind you, them being taken to 7 games by Houston in 2018 should hardly be seen as a knock against their undisputed GOAT status. 2018 Houston were a 65-win juggernaut and had one of the GOAT regular seasons in NBA history. They would've won the championship in most other seasons.

I don't think the 2018 Rockets would have beaten the Cavs. And while I agree with your assessment on a general scale, I believe that the premise of my analysis is in response to the idea that the 2017 team and the 2018 team were notably different.

The Warriors were 17-14 in the games Steph missed, but 41-10 in the games that he played. If Steph is in fact healthy for the season, then GS' win total and overall "dominance" looks a lot like it did the previous year. After all, they had a 66 win pace with him in the lineup, and none of this accounts for the games that Klay, Draymond, and KD all missed as well.

In addition, Kawhi's injury reduced any possibility of any wins in the 2017 WCF series, which would have likely been at least 2 since SA would have had HCA after game 2.

The point about Houston that you made is exactly why the premise of the OP is erroneous. If Houston is in fact that good, and could hang for 7 games while losing CP3 being up 3-2, then how about Chicago who had arguably the greatest season of all-time?

If the response is, "they're a modern team who could shoot 3s," then a) Chicago could shoot threes, too and b) Houston shot just 33.5% and still went up 3-2 in the series through the first 5 games prior to Paul's injury.

Chicago's dominance in 1996 is largely underrated due to the fact that they were so injury riddled come playoff time. None of these factors, including style of play, are being factored into the conversation.

For these reasons, I believe this conversation is far more nuanced than any of you are willing to admit. And I'm not even saying that Chicago wins in a best of 7 series. I'm merely saying they stand a chance, especially if it's with pre-2005 rules.

[3ba11]

We calling Richard Dumas an elite talent now?






Any elite athlete at the wing spot that gets 16 on 57% has achieved "pippen-caliber", so the Suns had 4 pippen-caliber talents

[HoopsNY]

Any elite athlete at the wing spot that gets 16 on 57% has achieved "pippen-caliber", so the Suns had 4 pippen-caliber talents

Grown men are talking. Just stay out of it.

[Indian guy]

Rodman doesn't stop KD, but he certainly can slow him down.

Rodman was 34 years old by 1996, much heavier than his Piston days and almost exclusively checked bigs by that point of his career. He wouldn't have a prayer of checking KD. Nor would any coach be dumb enough to put him on an athletic wing.


Steph and Klay are spotty in big games and we've seen this a lot, including series against inferior defensive players. So what about a Pippen/MJ/Harper trio?

Curry had the best playoffs of his career in 2017, for the record. Even if you do consider him and Klay spotty in the playoffs, gee, then what do you consider Pippen? And I shudder to imagine the offensive ramifications of MJ/Pip/Harper chasing Curry/Klay all over the court. They never had to guard anything like those guys in the 90's.

[3ba11]

MJ/Pip/Harper chasing Curry/Klay all over the court. They never had to guard anything like those guys in the 90's


.


That's false

They had to defend a post offense running through Barkley + KJ/Majerle

Or Malone + Stockton/Hornacek.

Or Smits + Reggie

That's more than defending Curry/Klay

So it's an easy win for the Bulls against the 16' Warriors but the problem is that the 17' Warriors had KD - so the only question is whether MJ would dominate enough to overcome that because we know his low-producing teammates are locked in at low peaks (aka we know that Pippen won't average more than 15-21 in the Finals) .

[RRR3]

I don't think the 2018 Rockets would have beaten the Cavs. And while I agree with your assessment on a general scale, I believe that the premise of my analysis is in response to the idea that the 2017 team and the 2018 team were notably different.

The Warriors were 17-14 in the games Steph missed, but 41-10 in the games that he played. If Steph is in fact healthy for the season, then GS' win total and overall "dominance" looks a lot like it did the previous year. After all, they had a 66 win pace with him in the lineup, and none of this accounts for the games that Klay, Draymond, and KD all missed as well.

In addition, Kawhi's injury reduced any possibility of any wins in the 2017 WCF series, which would have likely been at least 2 since SA would have had HCA after game 2.

The point about Houston that you made is exactly why the premise of the OP is erroneous. If Houston is in fact that good, and could hang for 7 games while losing CP3 being up 3-2, then how about Chicago who had arguably the greatest season of all-time?

If the response is, "they're a modern team who could shoot 3s," then a) Chicago could shoot threes, too and b) Houston shot just 33.5% and still went up 3-2 in the series through the first 5 games prior to Paul's injury.

Chicago's dominance in 1996 is largely underrated due to the fact that they were so injury riddled come playoff time. None of these factors, including style of play, are being factored into the conversation.

For these reasons, I believe this conversation is far more nuanced than any of you are willing to admit. And I'm not even saying that Chicago wins in a best of 7 series. I'm merely saying they stand a chance, especially if it's with pre-2005 rules.
You don’t think the 2018 Rockets would beat the 2018 Cavs?

[HoopsNY]

Rodman was 34 years old by 1996, much heavier than his Piston days and almost exclusively checked bigs by that point of his career. He wouldn't have a prayer of checking KD. Nor would any coach be dumb enough to put him on an athletic wing.

Rodman was able to guard all 5 positions in 1996. But let's say for the sake of argument that you're right, then Rodman guards Draymond and Pippen guards KD. A healthy Pippen does a better job than anyone not named Kawhi that defended KD in either year.

Fun fact, before Kawhi went down with the injury in game 1, KD was 4-11 from the field. After the injury, KD was 7-10, including 5-6 in the 4th quarter.


Curry had the best playoffs of his career in 2017, for the record. Even if you do consider him and Klay spotty in the playoffs, gee, then what do you consider Pippen? And I shudder to imagine the offensive ramifications of MJ/Pip/Harper chasing Curry/Klay all over the court. They never had to guard anything like those guys in the 90's.

Pippen became spotty in '96 because of his back injury. I'm arguing that Chicago at full capacity is a different beast. Pippen got injured in the 2nd half of the season in 1996, but was well on his way to a DPOY award and was putting up 22 PPG on 49% prior to the injury.

In Pippen's final 26 games of the '96 season, he averaged 14.6 PPG on 39% shooting.

Curry shot 44% in the finals against Kyrie and co. in the 2017 finals and averaged 23.8 PPG including 32.6% from the distance in the first 5 games against Houston.

I'm curious as to why you (and everyone else on this thread) chooses to highlight Steph's best moments and disregard obvious discrepancies in the data, especially seeing that Chicago's perimeter defense was elite. Why does Curry get to put up insane numbers with insane efficiency against Chicago, but not against Cleveland or Houston?

[HoopsNY]

You don’t think the 2018 Rockets would beat the 2018 Cavs?

That's a long discussion. But first respond to my previous response to your comment. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say.

[HoopsNY]

That's false

They had to defend a post offense running through Barkley + KJ/Majerle

Or Malone + Stockton/Hornacek.

Or Smits + Reggie

That's more than defending Curry/Klay

So it's an easy win for the Bulls against the 16' Warriors but the problem is that the 17' Warriors had KD - so the only question is whether MJ would dominate enough to overcome that because we know his low-producing teammates are locked in at low peaks (aka we know that Pippen won't average more than 15-21 in the Finals) .

You really do a disservice to anything I say with bu11sh!t like this.

[97 bulls]

Rodman was 34 years old by 1996, much heavier than his Piston days and almost exclusively checked bigs by that point of his career. He wouldn't have a prayer of checking KD. Nor would any coach be dumb enough to put him on an athletic wing.



Curry had the best playoffs of his career in 2017, for the record. Even if you do consider him and Klay spotty in the playoffs, gee, then what do you consider Pippen? And I shudder to imagine the offensive ramifications of MJ/Pip/Harper chasing Curry/Klay all over the court. They never had to guard anything like those guys in the 90's.

I belive the Bulls would be BETTER defensively today. Imagine Jordan and Pippen not having to worry about getting hit with an illegal defense rule that they had in the 90s. Imagine how much easier the Bulls would be able to score without having to worry about a big camping out in the paint.

As far as Rodman, Jackson called Rodman the best athlete he'd ever seen while he was with the Bulls. If the Bulls played today, this is what i see their numbers being

Jordan 33/6/7
Pippen 23/9/8
Kukoc 16/7/5
Rodman 7/20/2
Harper 10/3/3

Let's not forget the Bulls were the best offense in 96.

[97 bulls]

You really do a disservice to anything I say with bu11sh!t like this.

I find it funny that the Bulls injuries is never acknowledged.

[k0kakw0rld]

Basketball is not played on paper.

[RRR3]

That's a long discussion. But first respond to my previous response to your comment. I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say.
I’m not really impressed by the Bulls shooting since they played with a shortened line which factually helped Mj and Pippen a lot with their 3PT%. There’s not a single player in the starting lineup the warriors are worried about with the real 3pt line. The rockets shooting was on insane volume though just bringing up percentage ignoring that is weird. Which team do you think is getting guarded heavily at the line? The Rockets. Not the bulls. That matters. I don’t want my points to be construed as saying the Bulls couldn’t play today because that’s BS but they’d have to learn how the modern game is played and get used to it before being at their best.

[Johnny32]

i belive the bulls would be better defensively today.

rofl

[3ba11]

And look at yesterday's game between the Nets/Bulls and look at guys that have been juggernauts this year like Lavine and Derozan - their offensive attack was blunted by being worn out DEFENDING the Nets' superior onslaught.

So again, if MJ can completely dominate and be "MJ", this attack will be a superior onslaught sufficient to blunt Curry/Klay's attack - if Kyrie can blunt Curry, then MJ will make Curry a role player, like the 12 points he just scored vs Bucks.

[3ba11]

Here's Jordan against Willie Anderson, Anthony Mason and Derek Harper - all of them are better defenders than Curry, and comparable to Klay - if THIS guy gets going, Curry/Klay have no chance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLHOwGn2HRI


And this guy would win the title with the least help in NBA history:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny5OWBzQduY

[SouBeachTalents]

Here's Jordan against Willie Anderson, Anthony Mason and Derek Harper - all of them are better defenders than Curry, and comparable to Klay - if THIS guy gets going, Curry/Klay have no chance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLHOwGn2HRI


And this guy would win the title with the least help in NBA history:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny5OWBzQduY
A game they lost and another from 7 years earlier

https://media.giphy.com/media/O2K7wIcw3CoeY/giphy.gif

[Axe]

Some people itt are trying to overestimate the '17 warriors rofl. They seemed to have forgotten that they were hugely trailing in game 1 of the 2017 western finals against the spurs until a dirty play by zaza on kawhi during the 3rd quarter of the game. Ofc that sudden turnaround of events shifted the momentum to gs' favor and we all know what happened for the rest of that series. Had that not happen at all and maybe that warriors team wouldn't have the best record in a single playoff run.

[3ba11]

A game they lost and another from 7 years earlier

https://media.giphy.com/media/O2K7wIcw3CoeY/giphy.gif


Well it's funny because I was watching Jordan drop about 100 points on a springy Rex Chapman from 1990 (Hornets) and 92' (Bullets) and I was thinking how this couldn't be much different than how it would be on Klay..

Then I looked up Klay's numbers and realized that he's been entirely carried by his "jordan" (curry)... So I placed him in the "pippen" category of players that have an inflated ranking due to ring count, without the stats or dominance to back it up.. a "horry" if you will.. infact, klay's gamescores should be looked up to see if they can match horry-level from the 95' Finals.. I bet he doesn't make it just like Pippen didn't.

[HoopsNY]

I’m not really impressed by the Bulls shooting since they played with a shortened line which factually helped Mj and Pippen a lot with their 3PT%. There’s not a single player in the starting lineup the warriors are worried about with the real 3pt line. The rockets shooting was on insane volume though just bringing up percentage ignoring that is weird. Which team do you think is getting guarded heavily at the line? The Rockets. Not the bulls. That matters. I don’t want my points to be construed as saying the Bulls couldn’t play today because that’s BS but they’d have to learn how the modern game is played and get used to it before being at their best.

Why is bringing up their percentage weird? The point is that they didn't overpower GS with their three point shooting. So now Chicago wasn't even capable of putting up 33% shooting, either?

They shot 37% and 35% as a team in 1993 and 1994, respectively. And the 1994 team didn't even have MJ. Let's dive a little bit deeper. Here are Houston's three point shooting in games 4 and 5, which they won.

HOU Game 4: 12-38 (32%)
HOU Game 5: 13-43 (30%)

GS Game 4: 9-27 (33%)
GS Game 5: 10-26 (39%)

Both of these games were close games, yet Houston won them both. And in both of these games, GS shot better from the distance. So everything you're saying just isn't adding up.

[Indian guy]

I don't think the 2018 Rockets would have beaten the Cavs.

Houston took GS to 7 games while Cleveland got swept by a record margin. Yet Cleveland would've beaten Houston? Come on, dude.

It would've been a more competitive series, sure, but Houston has like 6 of the 8 best players in this match up. There is no way they're losing.


And while I agree with your assessment on a general scale, I believe that the premise of my analysis is in response to the idea that the 2017 team and the 2018 team were notably different.

I don't think anybody's saying they were notably different, just that 2017 was better. I also don't see why one competitive series against an ATG regular season team the following season diminishes just how ridiculously good they were.



If the response is, "they're a modern team who could shoot 3s," then a) Chicago could shoot threes,

Chicago didn't shoot 3's anywhere close to the volume Houston did. Percentages are meaningless when the other team is making more than twice as many shots.


Chicago's dominance in 1996 is largely underrated due to the fact that they were so injury riddled come playoff time.

That's sort of the point. They were pretty much always injured during the 2nd 3peat. That's what you get with an old team whose best players were all well into their 30's. Compare that to GS's core pretty much all being in their 20's and in the middle of their prime. Chicago would've never been able to keep up with their style of play.


Rodman was able to guard all 5 positions in 1996.

This isn't true at all. Rodman exclusively checked bigs by this point of his career. He simply didn't have the lateral movement anymore to guard wings.


But let's say for the sake of argument that you're right, then Rodman guards Draymond and Pippen guards KD. A healthy Pippen does a better job than anyone not named Kawhi that defended KD in either year.

If Pippen's checking KD all game, imagine to what extent his already erratic offense is going to suffer. Again, Bulls would need to score a shit load of points to hang with this GS team. That's not going to happen if their best offensive players are gassed checking the other team's top scorers.


Curry shot 44% in the finals against Kyrie and co.

lol come on. Raw FG% is a useless stat for someone with Curry's 3pt volume. Curry averaged 27 ppg on 62% TS in the 2017 Finals. 28 ppg on 62% TS for the playoffs as a whole. He was amazing in that run.

[3ba11]

People are erroneously assuming that Pippen is the best defender for Durant when no one thought Pippen was the best defender for Magic heading into those Finals, and MJ ended up being the primary defender on Magic and then Drexler in 92'.

People don't realize that Pippen's only history up until the 91' Playoffs was historic weakness and choking - no one considered him viable for such a big assignment like Magic in his first Finals - so Pippen made a lot of hay off the surprise factor by doing okay in the Game 2 blowout, but Jordan was the primary defender throughout the series including the critical fourth quarter & OT of Game 3 that swung the series.

TLDR: Jordan's status as the primary defenders for Magic and Drexler shows that the Bulls would put MJ on KD, while Pippen guards Draymond or Klay

[3ba11]

People are erroneously assuming that Pippen is the best defender for Durant when no one thought Pippen was the best defender for Magic heading into those Finals, and MJ ended up being the primary defender on Magic and then Drexler in 92'.

People don't realize that Pippen's only history up until the 91' Playoffs was historic weakness and choking - no one considered him viable for such a big assignment like Magic in his first Finals - so Pippen made a lot of hay off the surprise factor by doing okay in the Game 2 blowout, but Jordan was the primary defender throughout the series including the critical fourth quarter & OT of Game 3 that swung the series.

TLDR: Jordan's status as the primary defenders for Magic and Drexler shows that the Bulls would put MJ on KD, while Pippen guards Draymond or Klay


And to further support the notion that MJ would guard KD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s..

[Phoenix]

And to further support the notion that MJ would guard KD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s..

So you think for a team whose, by your own persistent arguments, 2nd scorer is erratic( Pippen)..... the call here is to have MJ guard the most singular unguardable Warrior who also happens to have a 6 inch height edge. AND, per your prior posts, you also say he's going to average 40. MJ 'could' guard KD in the same manner someone like a Tony Allen would, by sticking to him and getting into his shooting space. MJ absolutely could do that....if he completely sacrificed his offense, but KD is still going to score....a lot. There's no way you can lean on a 33 year old MJ to do this, even a 29 year old one would have hell with the load you're giving him here.

[AirBonner]

I have MJ just outside my top 10

[3ba11]

So you think for a team whose, by your own persistent arguments, 2nd scorer is erratic( Pippen)..... the call here is to have MJ guard the most singular unguardable Warrior who also happens to have a 6 inch height edge. AND, per your prior posts, you also say he's going to average 40. MJ 'could' guard KD in the same manner someone like a Tony Allen would, by sticking to him and getting into his shooting space. MJ absolutely could do that, but KD is still going to score....a lot....and such an effort from MJ would take from his offense( the rule of attrition you like to bring up when it suites you). There's no way you can lean on a 33 year old MJ to do this, even a 29 year old one would have hell with the load you're giving him here.


Durant would spend more energy defending Jordan than vice versa, so the attrition effect works in Jordan's favor.. Imagine if Tony Allen was a couple inches taller and the goat scorer

Of course, Durant probably wouldn't guard Jordan, and the Bulls would eventually see that it's better to not have MJ waste energy guarding Durant either.

All I'm saying is that the Bulls might absolutely use MJ to guard Durant just like they did Magic and Drexler.. And yes, eventually, one would think they would alter this strategy.. But my point is merely to demonstrate how much the team relied on Jordan, and didn't have the type of faith in Pippen that everyone thinks

[Phoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um96aNyokXc

Most people here don't have the attention span to watch a near 20 min highlight video, but here's one of Tony Allen defending KD in 2014. One of the best perimeter defenders ever that nobody mentions because he wasn't also dropping 20+ a night. MJ 'could' assimilate some version of this kind of defense( he obviously had the athleticism, lateral movement, defensive IQ and quick hands). Problem is he also has to score 30 or in this fantasy scenario that 3bot is cooking up, 40. So if MJ is guarding KD then who's Pippen, the 'crap' 2nd scorer per 3bot, defending? Curry? Klay? What's that going to do for his already erratic offense at this stage in his career? Bearing in mind that he wasn't even completely healthy in the 96 playoffs.

[Phoenix]

Durant would spend more energy defending Jordan than vice versa, so the attrition effect works in Jordan's favor.. Imagine if Tony Allen was a couple inches taller and the goat scorer

Of course, Durant probably wouldn't guard Jordan, and the Bulls would eventually see that it's better to not have MJ waste energy guarding Durant either.

All I'm saying is that the Bulls might absolutely use MJ to guard Durant just like they did Magic and Drexler.. And yes, eventually, one would think they would alter this strategy.. But my point is merely to demonstrate how much the team relied on Jordan, and didn't have the type of faith in Pippen that everyone thinks

At best MJ might defend Durant in spurts, but there is absolutely no way Chicago will have him defend him enough to crater his own much-needed offense. And since you say that KD also wouldn't defend MJ to any major degree, the idea of any attrition factor working in MJ's favor is irrelevant to bring up. Klay would be the primary defender on MJ, followed by Iggy off the bench. Really, the Warriors could throw out a death lineup of Curry and Klay in the backcourt, with Iggy, KD and Draymond. Good luck with that.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um96aNyokXc

Most people here don't have the attention span to watch a near 20 min highlight video, but here's one of Tony Allen defending KD in 2014. One of the best perimeter defenders ever that nobody mentions because he wasn't also dropping 20+ a night. MJ 'could' assimilate some version of this kind of defense( he obviously had the athleticism, lateral movement, defensive IQ and quick hands). Problem is he also has to score 30 or in this fantasy scenario that 3bot is cooking up, 40. So if MJ is guarding KD then who's Pippen, the 'crap' 2nd scorer per 3bot, defending? Curry? Klay? What's that going to do for his already erratic offense at this stage in his career? Bearing in mind that he wasn't even completely healthy in the 96 playoffs.


Imagine if Tony Allen was a couple inches taller and the goat scorer

Ultimately, Jordan guarding Magic and Drexler demonstrates how much the team relied on Jordan and didn't have the type of faith in Pippen that everyone thinks.

So the Bulls might absolutely try MJ on Durant more than people realize, and this flexibility is what made the Bulls great... MJ averaged 31/7/11 on 56% while guarding Magic for 70% of the possessions in the series

[SouBeachTalents]

Imagine if Tony Allen was a couple inches taller and the goat scorer

Ultimately, Jordan guarding Magic and Drexler demonstrates how much the team relied on Jordan and didn't have the type of faith in Pippen that everyone thinks.

So the Bulls might absolutely try MJ on Durant more than people realize, and this flexibility is what made the Bulls great... MJ averaged 31/7/11 on 56% while guarding Magic for 70% of the possessions in the series
Great, they still lose :lol

And I find it amazing how a team that relied entirely on Jordan won 55 games without him.

[Phoenix]

Imagine if Tony Allen was a couple inches taller and the goat scorer

Ultimately, Jordan guarding Magic and Drexler demonstrates how much the team relied on Jordan and didn't have the type of faith in Pippen that everyone thinks.

So the Bulls might absolutely try MJ on Durant more than people realize

MJ couldn't give 'that' kind of defensive effort on KD plus drop 35-40. Tony Allen could give that kind of effort because his team didn't live or die on his offensive output. So there's no need to imagine any of these pie in the sky situations, you're simply operating in delusion land.

[3ba11]

Great, they still lose :lol

And I find it amazing how a team that relied entirely on Jordan won 55 games without him.


They had to 3-peat first before they could win 55, and they were a garbage 2nd Round team that almost got swept by Ewing if not for Kukoc

1st options are supposed to build a franchise each year, but Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'

[SouBeachTalents]

They had to 3-peat first before they could win 55, and they were a garbage 2nd Round team that almost got swept by Ewing if not for Kukoc

1st options are supposed to build a franchise each year, but Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'
:oldlol: Never change 3ball

[3ba11]

MJ couldn't give 'that' kind of defensive effort on KD plus drop 35-40. Tony Allen could give that kind of effort because his team didn't live or die on his offensive output. So there's no need to imagine any of these pie in the sky situations, you're simply operating in delusion land.


What if the Bulls find it easier to defend a 3-point attack than a post and 3-point attack that they defeated in the 90"s?

What if Klay and Curry look like role players against the Bulls and it's really just KD out there?

Harden nearly beat them - one could argue the Warriors won in 2018 due to injury in that series.

If Harden can mount a sufficient attack to nearly win the attrition battle against the KD Warriors, then I like MJ's chances

[3ba11]

:oldlol: Never change 3ball


They were infact a garbage 2nd Round team - they lost in the 2nd Round... you think they win the title or something?.. not at all - they were a shitty 2nd Round team

And they would've been down 0-3 if Kukoc doesn't save them.. literally getting rag-dolled if Kukoc doesn't make it a flukey series

Ultimately, 1st options are supposed to build a franchise each year, but Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'

[Phoenix]

What if the Bulls find it easier to defend a 3-point attack than a post and 3-point attack that they defeated in the 90"s?

What if Klay and Curry look like role players against the Bulls and it's really just KD out there?

Harden nearly beat them - one could argue the Warriors won in 2018 due to injury in that series.

If Harden can mount a sufficient attack to nearly win the attrition battle against the KD Warriors, then I like MJ's chances

The Bulls had a hard enough time chasing around 33 year old Reggie in 98. You're now asking them to do that for Curry and Klay, plus deal with KD. There's way too much shooting, movement, and spacing to think you're going to neutralize 2 of the 3 key Warriors here. That's not even forgetting that Draymond also benefits from that spacing. Who's guarding him, Rodman? Worm was a mostly post defender by this point.

The Rockets made 87 3s in the 2018 series against the Warriors. The Bulls made 111 over the ENTIRE 96 playoffs. Need a calculator?

This isn't the MCU on Disney+. Fukk outta here with your what if bullshit.

[ShawkFactory]

:oldlol: Never change 3ball

It's truly the 3ball/Jordan stan version of 1-9 :lol

[3ba11]

The Bulls had a hard enough time chasing around 33 year old Reggie in 98. You're now asking them to do that for Curry and Klay, plus deal with KD. There's way too much shooting, movement, and spacing to think you're going to neutralize 2 of the 3 key Warriors here. That's not even forgetting that Draymond also benefits from that spacing. Who's guarding him, Rodman? Worm was a mostly post defender by this point.

The Rockets made 87 3s in the 2018 series against the Warriors. The Bulls made 111 over the ENTIRE 96 playoffs. Need a calculator?

This isn't the MCU on Disney+. Fukk outta here with your what if bullshit.



That's what everyone said about the 11' Mavs against the Heat, or the 04' Pistons, and the gap between the 96' Bulls and KD Warriors is less.. Bulls might even be favored in some sportsbooks

Regardless, the Bulls need MJ to completely carry the load to win

Ultimately, the Bulls win because they beat the 93' Suns, where Barkley/Durant cancel out, as do KJ/Majerle with Curry/Klay (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501020-Klay-Thompson-vs-Jeff-Hornacek-career-statistical-comparison).. then there's Dumas

Heck, Stockton and Curry are comparable, while Malone/Durant cancel out, just like Klay/Hornacek (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501020-Klay-Thompson-vs-Jeff-Hornacek-career-statistical-comparison).

[SouBeachTalents]

That's what everyone said about the 11' Mavs against the Heat, or the 04' Pistons, and the gap between the 96' Bulls and KD Warriors is less.. Bulls might even be favored in some sportsbooks

Regardless, the Bulls need MJ to completely carry the load to win

Ultimately, the Bulls win because they beat the 93' Suns, where Barkley/Durant cancel out, as do KJ/Majerle with Curry/Klay (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501020-Klay-Thompson-vs-Jeff-Hornacek-career-statistical-comparison).. then there's Dumas

Heck, Stockton and Curry are comparable, while Malone/Durant cancel out, just like Klay/Hornacek (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501020-Klay-Thompson-vs-Jeff-Hornacek-career-statistical-comparison).
Early candidate for worst post of 2022.

[3ba11]

.
Klay vs Hornacek Career Statistical comparison


Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Conclusion: Klay is the "pippen" of today's game because both guys have an inflated historical ranking fueled by ring count without the stats or dominance to back it up

[3ba11]

Early candidate for worst post of 2022.


It's a fact that Hornacek destroys Klay statistically (see previous post), while Stockton/Curry and Malone/Durant are comparable (except Malone has more MVP's and all-defense without colluding)

In addition to having comparable talent to the KD Warriors, the 98' Jazz had a superior organic brand that had been together twice as long and demolished Popovich/Duncan/Robinson and Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers.. So the Jazz could beat the KD Warriors like Harden almost did, let alone the Bulls.

[Phoenix]

That's what everyone said about the 11' Mavs against the Heat, or the 04' Pistons, and the gap between the 96' Bulls and KD Warriors is less.. Bulls might even be favored in some sportsbooks

Regardless, the Bulls need MJ to completely carry the load to win

Ultimately, the Bulls win because they beat the 93' Suns, where Barkley/Durant cancel out, as do KJ/Majerle with Curry/Klay (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501020-Klay-Thompson-vs-Jeff-Hornacek-career-statistical-comparison).. then there's Dumas

Heck, Stockton and Curry are comparable, while Malone/Durant cancel out, just like Klay/Hornacek (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501020-Klay-Thompson-vs-Jeff-Hornacek-career-statistical-comparison).

This is where I log off, grab a cold one and play God of War that just came out on Steam. You'll probably perceive this as me running away from the conversation, but I don't need the last word that badly. This will fall nicely in the dumbest things said on ISH thread. There's better way to spend my Saturdays.

[3ba11]

This is where I log off, grab a cold one and play God of War that just came out on Steam. You'll probably perceive this as me running away from the conversation, but I don't need the last word that badly posts like this stand for all to see. There's better way to spend my Saturdays. Judge this discussion accordingly, ISH.


After we take away KD's colluded rings, his resume is shit compared to Malone or Barkley (less MVP and all-defense than Malone).

And we already know that Hornacek > Klay, (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500962-On-paper-the-17-Warriors-demolish-the-96-Bulls&p=14519201&viewfull=1#post14519201) while the Stockton/Curry matchup is close

Enjoy your afternoon

[RRR3]

Stupidball

[3ba11]

Stupidball


No, you guys are too weak to make up your own minds about things, so you abide by the opinions of a bunch of Joe the Plumbers with journalism degrees on TV.. you let literal know-nothings tell you what to think and ignore the facts right in front of your eyes (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500962-On-paper-the-17-Warriors-demolish-the-96-Bulls&p=14519201&viewfull=1#post14519201)

[RRR3]

No, you guys are too weak to make up your own minds about things, so you abide by the opinions of a bunch of Joe the Plumbers with journalism degrees on TV.. you let literal know-nothings tell you what to think and ignore the facts right in front of your eyes (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500962-On-paper-the-17-Warriors-demolish-the-96-Bulls&p=14519201&viewfull=1#post14519201)
Meltdown. Look how worked up I get you.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Jordan/Harper alternating on Curry depending on the score and flow of the game.

I would also capitalize on Draymonds lack of scoring ability and use MJ on him in spurts.

Curry guarded by Pip
Klay - Harper
KD - Rodman
Dray - Jordan
Zaza - Kukoc

[97 bulls]

I find it funny that whenever these conversations come up, it's always centered around how the Bulls would defend the opposing teams players. But never how well the opposing team would stop the Bulls.

What's also funny, is the fact that for all this talk about weak era, the argument that the 96 Bulls are overrated, the Bulls suck outside of Jordan etc. The Bulls are always the metric by which all teams are judged. Be it before them or after them.

That's because you guys know the greatest team ever is the Bulls.

[Johnny32]

Why is bringing up their percentage weird? The point is that they didn't overpower GS with their three point shooting. So now Chicago wasn't even capable of putting up 33% shooting, either?

They shot 37% and 35% as a team in 1993 and 1994, respectively. And the 1994 team didn't even have MJ. Let's dive a little bit deeper. Here are Houston's three point shooting in games 4 and 5, which they won.

HOU Game 4: 12-38 (32%)
HOU Game 5: 13-43 (30%)

GS Game 4: 9-27 (33%)
GS Game 5: 10-26 (39%)

Both of these games were close games, yet Houston won them both. And in both of these games, GS shot better from the distance. So everything you're saying just isn't adding up.

lol on 8 attempts clownboy. which means they made 3 per gm.

[Axe]

It's truly the 3ball/Jordan stan version of 1-9 :lol
Lol it's his coping mechanism. He doesn't want to bring up kobe as his real goat.

[Axe]

I find it funny that whenever these conversations come up, it's always centered around how the Bulls would defend the opposing teams players. But never how well the opposing team would stop the Bulls.

What's also funny, is the fact that for all this talk about weak era, the argument that the 96 Bulls are overrated, the Bulls suck outside of Jordan etc. The Bulls are always the metric by which all teams are judged. Be it before them or after them.

That's because you guys know the greatest team ever is the Bulls.
This. While it's better to not brag about them, they were great as a team. That includes the coaches and the executives involved in their success as well. People who read phil's book would understand about the dynasty even more. Trolls itb are avid fans of cancel culture i guess.

[HoopsNY]

Houston took GS to 7 games while Cleveland got swept by a record margin. Yet Cleveland would've beaten Houston? Come on, dude.

My theory has to do more with matchups and defense than anything, but that's a separate discussion.


I don't think anybody's saying they were notably different, just that 2017 was better. I also don't see why one competitive series against an ATG regular season team the following season diminishes just how ridiculously good they were.

The reason is the teams are not being compared fairly. The difference is minimal and people are hinging on the 2017 Warriors (as opposed to the 2018 team) due to their insane dominance of winning 67 games and nearly sweeping their way through the playoffs.

I believe there is a greater context to this given the fact that Kawhi's injury allowed for their playoff record to look a lot better than it actually was. With Kawhi's injury, then the 2018 Rockets appear to be the only solidly competitive team that they faced out of the WC. But let's not forget that SA was a 61 win team and the #1 defense.

In addition, the Cavs in 2018 were a far more inferior team having lost Kyrie than the 2017 team, where at least they snagged 1 game.

The injuries of the 2018 team play a factor; here's a spread of the team's numbers from each season:

GS 2017: 115.9 PPG | 49.5 FG% | 38.3% 3P | 78.8% FTH
GS 2018: 113.5 PPG | 50.3 FG% | 39.1% 3P | 81.5% FTH

The numbers are almost identical, with GS actually having better efficiency numbers despite their starting lineup being injured, and Steph (in particular) missing 31 games in the 2018 season.


Chicago didn't shoot 3's anywhere close to the volume Houston did. Percentages are meaningless when the other team is making more than twice as many shots.

If historical trends have shown us anything, then as teams shoot more three pointers, their percentages go up - not down. The league introduced the three point line in 1979-80; by 1983, teams were adjusting and barely shot 23%. By 1993, a decade later, teams were shooting 33%. By 2003, they were shooting nearly 35%. By last season, teams were shooting almost 37%.

Look at Chicago's numbers based on 3PA in 1996 (irrespective of a shortened line, the trend still remains the same):

15+ 3PA (52 games): 40.8%
20+ 3PA (21 games): 42.7%
25+ 3PA (4 games): 43.3%
27+ 3PA (2 games) 46.3%

We're seeing the opposite of what's being claimed here. So why is it a given that if Chicago shoots the ball more, that they would fall off a cliff? Furthermore, you haven't responded to the fact that Houston's 3P% was actually low, and still managed to win games, which is essentially the point. Even if Chicago shoots a lower %, then they still stand a chance to win.


That's sort of the point. They were pretty much always injured during the 2nd 3peat. That's what you get with an old team whose best players were all well into their 30's. Compare that to GS's core pretty much all being in their 20's and in the middle of their prime. Chicago would've never been able to keep up with their style of play.

My point is that if Chicago is at full capacity utilizing 90s rules, then they stand a chance at winning. Obviously they stand no chance if they're unhealthy like they were in the '96 playoffs.


If Pippen's checking KD all game, imagine to what extent his already erratic offense is going to suffer. Again, Bulls would need to score a shit load of points to hang with this GS team. That's not going to happen if their best offensive players are gassed checking the other team's top scorers.


Look at Houston's lineup's stats in the first 5 games and tell me Chicago is incapable of putting up similar numbers given modern rules:

Harden: 27/5/5/2/1 on 41/25/91
Paul: 20/7/5/2/0 on 41/37/75
Gordon: 18/3/2/1/1 on 40/36/95
Capela: 10/10/1/0/1 on 70/0/47
Ariza: 10/3/2/1/0 on 45/29/87
Tucker: 8/9/2/1/0 on 48/53/67

Harden put up 27, Paul put up 20, Gordon put up 18...please tell me you don't think a combined 65 points between those guys is something impossible for Chicago to do between Jordan-Pippen-Kukoc (at full capacity).

Capela grabbed 10 rebounds a game, how many do you think Rodman grabs? Paul averaged 5 assists, as did Harden; how many do you think Jordan and Pippen average?


lol come on. Raw FG% is a useless stat for someone with Curry's 3pt volume. Curry averaged 27 ppg on 62% TS in the 2017 Finals. 28 ppg on 62% TS for the playoffs as a whole. He was amazing in that run.

You missed my point. I wasn't saying he was utterly horrid or something. My point was that if Kyrie could hold him to 44% shooting, then what about Chicago's perimeter defenders? And let's not get carried away; Steph's 3P% that series was .388%, it wasn't as if he was out there shooting 45%.

Furthermore, his TS% in every finals he's played in has been great, but he hasn't been great in every finals.

[HoopsNY]

lol on 8 attempts clownboy. which means they made 3 per gm.

Be quiet. Grown men are speaking. When you actually hit puberty, then join the conversation. Until then, shut it.

[Axe]

Be quiet. Grown men are speaking. When you actually hit puberty, then join the conversation. Until then, shut it.
:oldlol:

[Bawkish]

Like what 97 Bulls said, the argument was always Bulls on the defensive side. What about GSW defending the Bulls? Can Klay/Steph or Dray clamp MJ? What about Kukoc? Can Coach Kerr draw defensive stops for 3pt Specialist Kerr?

[La Frescobaldi]

No dummy.. Adjustments are made throughout a series - Jordan guarded Miller most of the series

Furthermore, MJ/Harper were often not on the floor together... And when they were, Jordan or Kerr was the only guy to guard Best so sometimes Jordan would guard Best.. Otherwise it was Miller all day (Miller pushed of MJ in Game 4 for the historic winner after Pippen's choke).

Why do you lie like this?

[HunterSThompson]

with 96 rules the bulls sweep the warriors. with 2017 rules the warriors sweep the bulls

if the warriors had draymond at center for half the game the bulls would almost have an entire lineup bigger than draymond at times with harper, Jordan, pippen, Rodman and Longley

curry can barely handle the soft rules of the 2010s and gets frustrated. imagine him in 1996 with this kind of shit being allowed


https://youtu.be/lgFWyLRNsGk


its literally a wrestling match. this is why guys shot low percentages in the finals back in the day. the perimeter had guys banging like centers

[ShawkFactory]

with 96 rules the bulls sweep the warriors. with 2017 rules the warriors sweep the bulls

if the warriors had draymond at center for half the game the bulls would almost have an entire lineup bigger than draymond at times with harper, Jordan, pippen, Rodman and Longley

curry can barely handle the soft rules of the 2010s and gets frustrated. imagine him in 1996 with this kind of shit being allowed


https://youtu.be/lgFWyLRNsGk


its literally a wrestling match. this is why guys shot low percentages in the finals back in the day. the perimeter had guys banging like centers

I agree with the 100%. The Bulls would absolutely murder the Warriors on the boards.

[Airupthere]

with 96 rules the bulls sweep the warriors. with 2017 rules the warriors sweep the bulls

if the warriors had draymond at center for half the game the bulls would almost have an entire lineup bigger than draymond at times with harper, Jordan, pippen, Rodman and Longley

curry can barely handle the soft rules of the 2010s and gets frustrated. imagine him in 1996 with this kind of shit being allowed


https://youtu.be/lgFWyLRNsGk

its literally a wrestling match. this is why guys shot low percentages in the finals back in the day. the perimeter had guys banging like centers

Psshh! Nothing that Lebron can't handle :oldlol: and this is Reed not being allowed to even touch Lebron


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opZweRJRdXU

[3ba11]

It's funny because the 96' Bulls get demolished on paper by Lebron's teams too, yet only Lebron's teams complain about "comp" and how opponents were too good

If your team was expected to win (preseason favorite from 11-16'), then you can't complain about Finals comp because that weaponizes losing and having weaker teams than expected

[FireDavidKahn]

So 3ball admits the Warriors would wipe the floor against MJ.

Makes LeGOAT's ring even more GOATish.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsjZJSDP9t4

[3ba11]

So 3ball admits the Warriors would wipe the floor against MJ.

Makes LeGOAT's ring even more GOATish.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsjZJSDP9t4


Imagine if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley in the 93' Finals and then Jordan claimed goat by virtue of winning that series.

Everyone would laugh at Jordan because it would be ridiculous

Yet that's exactly what Lebron did and everyone is so dumb they can't see it - you weaklings have been brainwashed by Clutch Sports into thinking it isn't an advantage to team-hop around and play with all the best players (Year 1 favorite status) - it's literally the easiest path to a title (Year 1 favorite status).

[HoopsNY]

Can you trolls go elsewhere? Grown men are speaking.

[HoopsNY]

My theory has to do more with matchups and defense than anything, but that's a separate discussion.



The reason is the teams are not being compared fairly. The difference is minimal and people are hinging on the 2017 Warriors (as opposed to the 2018 team) due to their insane dominance of winning 67 games and nearly sweeping their way through the playoffs.

I believe there is a greater context to this given the fact that Kawhi's injury allowed for their playoff record to look a lot better than it actually was. With Kawhi's injury, then the 2018 Rockets appear to be the only solidly competitive team that they faced out of the WC. But let's not forget that SA was a 61 win team and the #1 defense.

In addition, the Cavs in 2018 were a far more inferior team having lost Kyrie than the 2017 team, where at least they snagged 1 game.

The injuries of the 2018 team play a factor; here's a spread of the team's numbers from each season:

GS 2017: 115.9 PPG | 49.5 FG% | 38.3% 3P | 78.8% FTH
GS 2018: 113.5 PPG | 50.3 FG% | 39.1% 3P | 81.5% FTH

The numbers are almost identical, with GS actually having better efficiency numbers despite their starting lineup being injured, and Steph (in particular) missing 31 games in the 2018 season.



If historical trends have shown us anything, then as teams shoot more three pointers, their percentages go up - not down. The league introduced the three point line in 1979-80; by 1983, teams were adjusting and barely shot 23%. By 1993, a decade later, teams were shooting 33%. By 2003, they were shooting nearly 35%. By last season, teams were shooting almost 37%.

Look at Chicago's numbers based on 3PA in 1996 (irrespective of a shortened line, the trend still remains the same):

15+ 3PA (52 games): 40.8%
20+ 3PA (21 games): 42.7%
25+ 3PA (4 games): 43.3%
27+ 3PA (2 games) 46.3%

We're seeing the opposite of what's being claimed here. So why is it a given that if Chicago shoots the ball more, that they would fall off a cliff? Furthermore, you haven't responded to the fact that Houston's 3P% was actually low, and still managed to win games, which is essentially the point. Even if Chicago shoots a lower %, then they still stand a chance to win.



My point is that if Chicago is at full capacity utilizing 90s rules, then they stand a chance at winning. Obviously they stand no chance if they're unhealthy like they were in the '96 playoffs.



Look at Houston's lineup's stats in the first 5 games and tell me Chicago is incapable of putting up similar numbers given modern rules:

Harden: 27/5/5/2/1 on 41/25/91
Paul: 20/7/5/2/0 on 41/37/75
Gordon: 18/3/2/1/1 on 40/36/95
Capela: 10/10/1/0/1 on 70/0/47
Ariza: 10/3/2/1/0 on 45/29/87
Tucker: 8/9/2/1/0 on 48/53/67

Harden put up 27, Paul put up 20, Gordon put up 18...please tell me you don't think a combined 65 points between those guys is something impossible for Chicago to do between Jordan-Pippen-Kukoc (at full capacity).

Capela grabbed 10 rebounds a game, how many do you think Rodman grabs? Paul averaged 5 assists, as did Harden; how many do you think Jordan and Pippen average?



You missed my point. I wasn't saying he was utterly horrid or something. My point was that if Kyrie could hold him to 44% shooting, then what about Chicago's perimeter defenders? And let's not get carried away; Steph's 3P% that series was .388%, it wasn't as if he was out there shooting 45%.

Furthermore, his TS% in every finals he's played in has been great, but he hasn't been great in every finals.

*bump*

[coastalmarker99]

One underrated team I think would give the 2017 Warriors problems is the 1986 Rockets.



I would love to see what Hakeem and Sampson would do to that Warriors team in a playoff series.



Also for the record, the only way to beat the 2017 Warriors is by having an all-time big on your team such as Wilt and Shaq or an all-time frontline as the 1986 Celtics had.



A series that is going to be mainly played on the perimeter such as the 1996 Bulls vs the 2017 Warriors massively tips the scales in the Warriors favour.

[La Frescobaldi]

One underrated team I think would give the 2017 Warriors problems is the 1986 Rockets.



I would love to see what Hakeem and Sampson would do to that Warriors team in a playoff series.



Also for the record, the only way to beat the 2017 Warriors is by having an all-time big on your team such as Wilt and Shaq or an all-time frontline as the 1986 Celtics had.



A series that is going to be mainly played on the perimeter such as the 1996 Bulls vs the 2017 Warriors massively tips the scales in the Warriors favour.

Watch 1970 NBA Finals G7 to see the classic example of what happens when a team gets insanely hot at shooting outside 15 feet

The list of great teams from the 3 point era shows that squads with good chances to beat that particular Warriors squad are just mighty few.
Using the rules of their own era:
83 Sixers - would get killed bad
‘86 Celtics - they can’t D the Splash Bros
85 or ‘87 Lakers - They cant D the Splash Bros
Bad Boy Pistons - I doubt Detroit wins a game.
91-93 Bulls - good chances
‘94-95 Rockets - good chances with Kenny & Sam but Drexler a ?
96-98 Bulls - too old. maybe. but I doubt it. they cant D the Splash Bros. Even Rodman & Pippen & Jordan can’t cover all that floor with what else they had available in the paint. Kerr cant match that output.
2001 Lakers - good chances. D Fish, Kobe Horry & Fox very sleek indeed and yet that rim is protected.
2005-2007 Spurs - has their chances if Parker stays mature which who knows.
2014 Spurs - too old to cover all that floor every possession every game.
LBJ Heat Cavs teams - maybe possibly

[SouBeachTalents]

The teams with the best shot at beating the 2017 Warriors imo would be the ‘86 Celtics & ‘01 Lakers. The Celtics could exploit a potentially significant mismatch with the dearth of bigs they could throw at the Dubs, and they could put DJ on Curry in an attempt to at least somewhat slow down or disrupt their offense.

Meanwhile, the Warriors would have absolutely no answer for peak Shaq, he could get 40/20 against them in his sleep. In addition to Kobe giving them 30 a night, they’d have the personnel to space the floor with Fisher/Fox/Horry as well.

[La Frescobaldi]

The teams with the best shot at beating the 2017 Warriors imo would be the ‘86 Celtics & ‘01 Lakers. The Celtics could exploit a potentially significant mismatch with the dearth of bigs they could throw at the Dubs, and they could put DJ on Curry in an attempt to at least somewhat slow down or disrupt their offense.

Meanwhile, the Warriors would have absolutely no answer for peak Shaq, he could get 40/20 against them in his sleep. In addition to Kobe giving them 30 a night, they’d have the personnel to space the floor with Fisher/Fox/Horry as well.

Offense matters only very little against that particular team. Any good team can go over 100 on them.
It’s defense that makes all of the difference and when you look at the distance your guards and forwards have to cover, and how to do that while protecting inside five feet, THAT is the key to victory… just about the only way through

[Axe]

Offense matters only very little against that particular team. Any good team can go over 100 on them.
It’s defense that makes all of the difference and when you look at the distance your guards and forwards have to cover, and how to do that while protecting inside five feet, THAT is the key to victory… just about the only way through
The core shooting players of the warriors were never superb defensively. But they do have a defensive stalwart in draymond green, who impacts the game with his defensive playmaking and what more. Thus, they can easily make the right adjustments to be more effective in that end. But the league has seen an instance where an opposing team has used the same tricks against them in the playoffs. The 2019 raptors executed them well, although to be fair the warriors were a bit hampered and did not have the hca for the first time in that last finals run. Still, they did have five 2018 all-stars in that team.

[3ba11]

Offense matters only very little against that particular team. Any good team can go over 100 on them.
It’s defense that makes all of the difference and when you look at the distance your guards and forwards have to cover, and how to do that while protecting inside five feet, THAT is the key to victory… just about the only way through


^^^ that's literally never true

teams that are worn down mentally and physically have less capacity to go off offensively, so less defense is needed against worn down teams that are on their heels... The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

Accordingly, effective offenses wear down defenses, which leaves them less capacity to go off offensively - the team that is getting worn down more is losing the attrition battle and the game.

People forget that zippy ball movement wears out defenses, while ball-dominance lets a defense rest so they have more capacity to go off offensively.. We saw teams "go off" on ball-dominance when Magic was destroyed KJ and MJ without Kareem in 90' and 91', or many teams went off on Lebron's ball-dominance in 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 17' Finals, 07' Finals, 18' Finals, and 21' First Round

[La Frescobaldi]

^^^ that's literally never true

teams that are worn down mentally and physically have less capacity to go off offensively, so less defense is needed against worn down teams that are on their heels... The best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

Accordingly, effective offenses wear down defenses, which leaves them less capacity to go off offensively - the team that is getting worn down more is losing the attrition battle and the game.

People forget that zippy ball movement wears out defenses, while ball-dominance lets a defense rest so they have more capacity to go off offensively.. We saw teams "go off" on ball-dominance when Magic was destroyed KJ and MJ without Kareem in 90' and 91', or many teams went off on Lebron's ball-dominance in 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 17' Finals, 07' Finals, 18' Finals, and 21' First Round

Clearly false based on this same thread which describes the effective method of winning.

[3ba11]

Clearly false based on this same thread which describes the effective method of winning.


It's clearly false that the best defense is a good offense?

a tenet of all competition since the beginning of mankind?

that's CLEARLY FALSE?

can i have what you're smoking?

It's simply a fact - ball-dominance lets the defense rest, so that's why all these teams "go off" on Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance (the worst kind of ball-dominance that needs the most help)

So wait... you thought that ALL THOSE TEAMS of Lebron's were just playing bad defense?.. So Lebron is just the worst defensive leader ever in the history of sports?.. ALL his teams get their doors blown off by a "hot" team?... Negative.... Ball-dominance simply lets the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively - see the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 91' Finals or 90' WCF for examples.

[La Frescobaldi]

It's clearly false that the best defense is a good offense?

a tenet of all competition since the beginning of mankind?

that's CLEARLY FALSE?

can i have what you're smoking?

It's simply a fact - ball-dominance lets the defense rest, so that's why all these teams "go off" on Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance (the worst kind of ball-dominance that needs the most help)

So wait... you thought that ALL THOSE TEAMS of Lebron's were just playing bad defense?.. So Lebron is just the worst defensive leader ever in the history of sports?.. ALL his teams get their doors blown off by a "hot" team?... Negative.... Ball-dominance simply lets the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively - see the 09' ECF, 11' Finals, 14' Finals, 91' Finals or 90' WCF for examples.

Dude after that incoherent and worthless raving I’ve got a serious visual right now.

3ball sits all day in a metal folding chair at a moldy card table with a actual Commodore 64 and a dial up modem on it, in a 49 year old ragged and filthy wifebeater shirt drinking New Amsterdam gin from a dang styrofoam cup which is also his current ashtray.

[RRR3]

Dude after that incoherent and worthless raving I’ve got a serious visual right now.

3ball sits all day in a metal folding chair at a moldy card table with a actual Commodore 64 and a dial up modem on it, in a 49 year old ragged and filthy wifebeater shirt drinking New Amsterdam gin from a dang styrofoam cup which is also his current ashtray.
:roll:

[HoopsNY]

I'll reiterate my original points.

1- I don't think the Bulls have a guarantee at beating the '17 Warriors. I think they put up a fight and can win, especially if perimeter rules are not lax and teams are playing with pre-2005 rules.

2- The '17 Warriors and '18 Warriors were no different. Their record and playoff dominance are skewed due to the Kawhi injury, CP3 injury, regular season injuries, and a finals where the Cavs in '18 had no Kyrie. Even if we say the '17 team was better, which I can concede to, then the difference is negligible.

Not only would the Spurs have likely won 2-3 games, but people forget they won 2/3 games in the regular season in 2017 as well.

3- My argument presupposes that Chicago is at full capacity, which they weren't in 1996, hence the Bulls in the '96 postseason look basic.

4- The constant argument of age in relation to the Bulls covering the perimeter is overblown; Chris Paul was 32, Ariza was 32, Tucker was 32. Harden was 28 and Gordon 29, but Harden was a horrific defensive player. MJ and Harper were both 32, Pippen was just 30, and Kukoc was only 27.

5- The biggest disregard that some are giving is the fact that Houston shot poorly from the distance in games 1-5, yet still went up 3-2 prior to Paul's injury. Two of those games were close, where they shot 30% from the distance.

Saying the Bulls couldn't shoot 30% and sustain a victory is quite odd. Houston's defense held GS to 93 PPG in games 4 and 5. So what's Chicago's all-time great defense doing, especially with tougher rules?

Kawhi and co. held the Warriors to 39% shooting before his injury in game 1 of the '17 WCF. What's prime MJ and peak Pippen (who was a favorite for DPOY before his back injury in 1996) not doing that SA and HOU were?

[999Guy]

GS got killed on the glass in the actual league they played in. Rebounding means nothing for them. They deestroyed teams from the field and in the TOV battle.

Chicago would have to put all their bigs on the bench, and would have to creative dynamic offense with Jordan and Pippen, guys who are not clearly better than Harden/Paul and LeBron/Kyrie, duos who struggled for long stretches against GS.


And yes, Kyrie had absolute disaster games in the 2017 finals, he just offset it with some hot shooting ones. Kyrie didn’t do any playmaking whatsoever as well. And Kyrie is at least as good as Pippen offensively with less flaws.

LeBron was great but not overwhelming amazing. Harden/Paul were contained enough.


I’m sure if 17 GS had to face every dominant team in the 3P era there would be a few upsets but none of Jordan’s teams are ones I feel would pull them off.

[3ba11]

I'll reiterate my original points.

1- I don't think the Bulls have a guarantee at beating the '17 Warriors. I think they put up a fight and can win, especially if perimeter rules are not lax and teams are playing with pre-2005 rules.

2- The '17 Warriors and '18 Warriors were no different. Their record and playoff dominance are skewed due to the Kawhi injury, CP3 injury, regular season injuries, and a finals where the Cavs in '18 had no Kyrie. Even if we say the '17 team was better, which I can concede to, then the difference is negligible.

Not only would the Spurs have likely won 2-3 games, but people forget they won 2/3 games in the regular season in 2017 as well.

3- My argument presupposes that Chicago is at full capacity, which they weren't in 1996, hence the Bulls in the '96 postseason look basic.

4- The constant argument of age in relation to the Bulls covering the perimeter is overblown; Chris Paul was 32, Ariza was 32, Tucker was 32. Harden was 28 and Gordon 29, but Harden was a horrific defensive player. MJ and Harper were both 32, Pippen was just 30, and Kukoc was only 27.

5- The biggest disregard that some are giving is the fact that Houston shot poorly from the distance in games 1-5, yet still went up 3-2 prior to Paul's injury. Two of those games were close, where they shot 30% from the distance.

Saying the Bulls couldn't shoot 30% and sustain a victory is quite odd. Houston's defense held GS to 93 PPG in games 4 and 5. So what's Chicago's all-time great defense doing, especially with tougher rules?

Kawhi and co. held the Warriors to 39% shooting before his injury in game 1 of the '17 WCF. What's prime MJ and peak Pippen (who was a favorite for DPOY before his back injury in 1996) not doing that SA and HOU were?


pippen is the only notable sidekick in history that never led the team or shared the lead (1b) in any series of playoff run - so ONLY PIPPEN was carried in every series or playoff run (never got within 10 ppg of MJ in any series), while also having the lowest peak capability of any notable sidekick - this includes scoring, passing, efficiency, and wins (22/5 and 55 wins with woat westbrick efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg))..

That's BY FAR the shittiest help that any team ever had that won multiple chips - heck, we already know that 95' Horry played better in those Finals than Pippen ever did in 6 Finals (Pippen is 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, aka 2-way statistical production).

Ultimately, the Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else..

Btw, Pippen never won DPOY because he was never viewed anywhere near the defender of Hakeem, Robinson Dikembe or Alonzo, while Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY every year except 96' and 97' - MJ was #4 in 98' while Pippen was #9, and Pippen didn't get any votes in 93' while MJ was #2.

[1987_Lakers]

pippen is the only notable sidekick in history that never led the team or shared the lead (1b) in any series of playoff run -

False


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM&t

[3ba11]

False




Pippen was nowhere near Jordan statistically in that series, so he was carried as usual and not an equal-scoring partner (1b) that every other player enjoyed.

Don't make me post the stats from the series - if that's the best you can do, then you're making my point - Pippen was a bum where his best series saw him peak at 22 ppg with 10 less ppg and less apg than the 1st option - that was his LEAST carried series.. lol

[HoopsNY]

GS got killed on the glass in the actual league they played in. Rebounding means nothing for them. They deestroyed teams from the field and in the TOV battle.

Chicago would have to put all their bigs on the bench, and would have to creative dynamic offense with Jordan and Pippen, guys who are not clearly better than Harden/Paul and LeBron/Kyrie, duos who struggled for long stretches against GS.


And yes, Kyrie had absolute disaster games in the 2017 finals, he just offset it with some hot shooting ones. Kyrie didn’t do any playmaking whatsoever as well. And Kyrie is at least as good as Pippen offensively with less flaws.

LeBron was great but not overwhelming amazing. Harden/Paul were contained enough.


I’m sure if 17 GS had to face every dominant team in the 3P era there would be a few upsets but none of Jordan’s teams are ones I feel would pull them off.

What kind of dynamic offense/playmaking was Harden and Paul bringing to the table? Harden averaged 4 turnovers in the first 5 games with just 5 assists, in addition to shooting just 41% and 24.5% from the distance. Paul shot 41% and averaged just 4.6 assists.

What people are saying to discredit a legitimate chance given the factors I mentioned above just isn't adding up.

[HoopsNY]

pippen is the only notable sidekick in history that never led the team or shared the lead (1b) in any series of playoff run - so ONLY PIPPEN was carried in every series or playoff run (never got within 10 ppg of MJ in any series), while also having the lowest peak capability of any notable sidekick - this includes scoring, passing, efficiency, and wins (22/5 and 55 wins with woat westbrick efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg))..

That's BY FAR the shittiest help that any team ever had that won multiple chips - heck, we already know that 95' Horry played better in those Finals than Pippen ever did in 6 Finals (Pippen is 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, aka 2-way statistical production).

Ultimately, the Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else..

Btw, Pippen never won DPOY because he was never viewed anywhere near the defender of Hakeem, Robinson Dikembe or Alonzo, while Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY every year except 96' and 97' - MJ was #4 in 98' while Pippen was #9, and Pippen didn't get any votes in 93' while MJ was #2.

I told you before, grown men are speaking. Don't you have a new episode of Captain Planet to watch?

[Round Mound]

False


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM&t

:applause:

[3ba11]

:applause:



1993 ECF

Jordan..... 32/6/7/3/1... 2.2 tov.. 113 ortg
Pippen..... 22/7/4/2/0... 4.0 tov.. 104 ortg


^^^ that's the LEAST pippen was ever carried... :yaohappy:

So while MJ carried Pippen in every series, everyone else in history needed equal-scoring partners for entire playoff runs.

This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced maximum defensive attention for his entire career and to a far greater extent than any other player in the history of the game

Btw, Pippen's gamescore was 15.7 (below Horry-caliber)

[1987_Lakers]

Damn, you know someone is on a merge of a meltdown when he types his words bigger and puts them in bold.

[3ba11]

Damn, you know someone is on a merge of a meltdown when he types his words bigger and puts them in bold.


It's funny because everyone says that Lebron carries teams when his entire career was played in a conference that didn't require a good cast to win.. Iverson, Kidd, and Dwight won with weak casts, while Kawhi "carried" Lowry and Butler "carried" a weak Heat team.. Middleton and Jrue aren't exactly world-beaters so Giannis won with a regular cast as well..

So Lebron can't carry teams and never has - Mo's spacing effect improved a 45-win team to a great regular season run in 2009.. Meanwhile, Lebron never carried the scoring load on the Finals level, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention on the highest level, and we already know that he never carried bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades).

[bizil]

I think this would be a case where MJ's LACK of scoring help would come back to haunt him. With the way GSW can stroke that long ball AND be elite defensively, i think that would be the difference. MJ WOULD STILL be the best player on the court. I even think they would make GSW less efficient than any other team could make them damn near. But to beat this Warriors team in a 7 game series, u need a MINIMUM of two alpha dog type scorers.

Bulls just don't have enough offensive firepower. They would have had to rely on Pippen and Toni to REALLY RAMP UP the scoring. Which I don't see happening frankly. I think u need teams like Showtime Lakers, 86 Celtics, Shaq-Kobe Lakers. Teams with dominant frontlines with a Bird-Magic-Kobe on the perimeter.

[HoopsNY]

I think this would be a case where MJ's LACK of scoring help would come back to haunt him. With the way GSW can stroke that long ball AND be elite defensively, i think that would be the difference. MJ WOULD STILL be the best player on the court. I even think they would make GSW less efficient than any other team could make them damn near. But to beat this Warriors team in a 7 game series, u need a MINIMUM of two alpha dog type scorers.

Bulls just don't have enough offensive firepower. They would have had to rely on Pippen and Toni to REALLY RAMP UP the scoring. Which I don't see happening frankly. I think u need teams like Showtime Lakers, 86 Celtics, Shaq-Kobe Lakers. Teams with dominant frontlines with a Bird-Magic-Kobe on the perimeter.

I still don't understand why everyone is ignoring the context that surrounded that GS team. Look at how they played against SA up until the Kawhi injury (shooting 39% in game 1).

The Rockets averaged 102 PPG in the first 5 games of that series, yet they were up 3-2. In addition, they won games 4 and 5 by averaging 96.5 PPG. They shot 33.5% from the distance in those first 5 games, including 31% in games 4 and 5. Chris Paul wasn't out there dropping 25-30 pts a game in that series.

GS' dominance is overrated.

Chicago was the #1 offense in 1996. They also led the league in PPG with 105 PPG. What hampered Pippen's scoring ability and makes him look mediocre that year was his back injury in the second half of the season, which continued through the playoffs. But a Chicago team that's at full capacity does have a chance at beating GS.

Chicago has the offense (especially in a faster paced league with relaxed rules) and perimeter defense to compete.

[3ba11]

I still don't understand why everyone is ignoring the context that surrounded that GS team. Look at how they played against SA up until the Kawhi injury (shooting 39% in game 1).

The Rockets averaged 102 PPG in the first 5 games of that series, yet they were up 3-2. In addition, they won games 4 and 5 by averaging 96.5 PPG. They shot 33.5% from the distance in those first 5 games, including 31% in games 4 and 5. Chris Paul wasn't out there dropping 25-30 pts a game in that series.

GS' dominance is overrated.

Chicago was the #1 offense in 1996. They also led the league in PPG with 105 PPG. What hampered Pippen's scoring ability and makes him look mediocre that year was his back injury in the second half of the season, which continued through the playoffs. But a Chicago team that's at full capacity does have a chance at beating GS.

Chicago has the offense (especially in a faster paced league with relaxed rules) and perimeter defense to compete.


It wasn't just an injury in 96' - Pippen averaged 17 on 40% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs (entire 2nd three-peat), including a great many bed-wetting throughout those runs.

He also had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, TS).. So Pippen was literally bad in every playoffs of his career except 91' and 92' (although he still had the X-man debacle in 92')

[SouBeachTalents]

It wasn't just an injury in 96' - Pippen averaged 17 on 40% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs (entire 2nd three-peat), including a great many bed-wetting throughout those runs.

He also had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, TS).. So Pippen was literally bad in every playoffs of his career except 91' and 92' (although he still had the X-man debacle in 92')
Exactly why the Bulls wouldn't beat the Warriors. You can't have your 2nd option play like such horseshit against a duo of peak Durant/Curry.

[ShawkFactory]

Exactly why the Bulls wouldn't beat the Warriors. You can't have your 2nd option play like such horseshit against a duo of peak Durant/Curry.

"The Bulls SHOULD lose because Pippen sucks but they would win cuz MJ"

[Johnny32]

Exactly why the Bulls wouldn't beat the Warriors. You can't have your 2nd option play like such horseshit against a duo of peak Durant/Curry.

you could in the offensively challenged mid 90s especially when he's the best defender on the court.

[3ba11]

Exactly why the Bulls wouldn't beat the Warriors. You can't have your 2nd option play like such horseshit against a duo of peak Durant/Curry.



the player that applies more pressure (the greater offensive attack) has to play less defense as the series wears on because they're wearing down the opponent more than they're getting worn down themselves.

Here's an example... Karl Malone has 20+ series ranging from 26-32 ppg.... But when he played the Bulls, Jordan's onslaught wore him down and left Malone less capacity for offense... So Malone only averaged 24 and 25 against the Bulls on weak efficiency.. He couldn't average 26-32 at the gameflow that Jordan was establishing,

So again, we don't know if Jordan's onslaught (whether it's 30 or 40 ppg) would be sufficient to wear down Durant/blunt his attack, and therefore win the attrition battle - if MJ is getting his career average of 34 and Durant/Curry are on their heels at 25-27, then I like MJ's chances a lot

[SouBeachTalents]

the player that applies more pressure (the greater offensive attack) has to play less defense as the series wears on because they're wearing down the opponent more than they're getting worn down themselves.

Here's an example... Karl Malone has 20+ series ranging from 26-32 ppg.... But when he played the Bulls, Jordan's onslaught wore him down and left Malone less capacity for offense... So Malone only averaged 24 and 25 against the Bulls on weak efficiency.. He couldn't average 26-32 at the gameflow that Jordan was establishing,

So again, we don't know if Jordan's onslaught (whether it's 30 or 40 ppg) would be sufficient to wear down Durant/blunt his attack, and therefore win the attrition battle - if MJ is getting his career average of 34 and Durant/Curry are on their heels at 25-27, then I like MJ's chances a lot
1996 Jordan is not averaging 40 ppg AND containing Durant or Curry, GTFOH :oldlol: But hey, believe whatever delusional fantasies you like.

[3ba11]

1996 Jordan is not averaging 40 ppg AND containing Durant or Curry, GTFOH :oldlol: But hey, believe whatever delusional fantasies you like.


96' and 97' Jordan averaged 32 in the triangle with hand-checking, legal impeding, and no spacing - so he could average whatever wanted with today's offensive format that keeps the paint empty with modern spacing strategy and doesn't allow hand-checking or impeding.

Can you say... 50?.. Some people think so but literally EVERYONE thinks he would average 40 today very easily..

Otoh, Durant barely gets 30 because he has to set up neat little jumpers and can't just elevate over anyone whenever he wants or have the pure scoring, off-the-cuff ability/instinct that MJ had

[Phoenix]

So again, we don't know if Jordan's onslaught (whether it's 30 or 40 ppg) would be sufficient to wear down Durant/blunt his attack, and therefore win the attrition battle - if MJ is getting his career average of 34 and Durant/Curry are on their heels at 25-27, then I like MJ's chances a lot

Still at it, eh? If MJ averaged 34ppg, and Durant each average 25-27, that's 50-54ppg for those two. So Pippen comes along( shit scorer at this point, remember this is your argument over 30 thousands posts) and he probably drops 17pgg in this series. So best case scenario is a scoring stalemate between those four on the assumption that 96 MJ dramatically outscores Durant/Curry. So with that said, what about Klay? Did he get thanos-snapped out of this scenario? It's ok, I'm only engaging you because for the free entertainment while I down this glass of port.

[bizil]

I still don't understand why everyone is ignoring the context that surrounded that GS team. Look at how they played against SA up until the Kawhi injury (shooting 39% in game 1).

The Rockets averaged 102 PPG in the first 5 games of that series, yet they were up 3-2. In addition, they won games 4 and 5 by averaging 96.5 PPG. They shot 33.5% from the distance in those first 5 games, including 31% in games 4 and 5. Chris Paul wasn't out there dropping 25-30 pts a game in that series.

GS' dominance is overrated.

Chicago was the #1 offense in 1996. They also led the league in PPG with 105 PPG. What hampered Pippen's scoring ability and makes him look mediocre that year was his back injury in the second half of the season, which continued through the playoffs. But a Chicago team that's at full capacity does have a chance at beating GS.

Chicago has the offense (especially in a faster paced league with relaxed rules) and perimeter defense to compete.

I WASN'T saying GSW would demolish the Bulls. I THINK it would go seven games. BUT for the BEST SHOT to beat GSW, I still maintain it's gotta be teams that relied on the three ball much more than the Bulls. OR it has to be a Showtime Lakers, Shaq-Kobe Lakers, or Bird's Celtics. Kobe, Bird,and Magic ARE ON THE LEVEL of KD and Steph as players. But the DIFFERENCE IS those teams ALSO have Shaq, Kareem, McHale, Parish, Walton, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, etc. on them. Those frontlines HANDS DOWN have the edge on GSW's frontline. So DESPITE being in a different era and not huge on the three ball, their frontlines IN TANDEM with Bird,Magic, or Kobe could SUPERCEDE what GSW brought to the table.

The Rockets team was a great matchup BECAUSE u had a Harden and CP3. TWO alpha dog caliber scorers. With a wide open Mike D system designed to get up a lot of 3PA. Even they don't shoot great from distance at times, THEY STILL are better than the Bulls EVER WERE at the 3 ball. BECAUSE it was different eras.

CP3 STILL averaged 20 PPG in that series. It's not SO MUCH about the PPG for a pass first PG like CP3. ESPECIALLY when u have Harden on the squad. It's MORE ABOUT when he decides to takeover a game, he can do it at the drop of a hat. When it comes to a CP3, Magic, Isiah style pass first PG, YOU KNOW they are alpha dog scorers. IF u know the game.

20 PPG from them and 20 PPG from a Pip is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in mentality. Cause Pip wasn't an alpha dog scorer. Even though Pip was a pass first point forward, HE WASN'T BORN to be a PG like a CP3. The ultimate QB who put SUCH A PREMIUM on being the floor general. So Pip wasn't looking to pass first AS MUCH as a CP3. YET CP3 is WAY MORE FEARED than Pip ever was scoring the rock!

[3ba11]

Still at it, eh? If MJ averaged 34ppg, and Durant each average 25-27, that's 50-54ppg for those two. So Pippen comes along( shit scorer at this point, remember this is your argument over 30 thousands posts) and he probably drops 17pgg in this series. So best case scenario is a scoring stalemate between those four on the assumption that 96 MJ dramatically outscores Durant/Curry. So with that said, what about Klay? Did he get thanos-snapped out of this scenario? It's ok, I'm only engaging you because for the free entertainment while I down this glass of port.


Klay?... Klay gets the same thing that he got in 17' and 18' alongside Durant in the Finals - 16 ppg - matched by 96' Kukoc, who had the prodigious talent and assassin shooting from Eastern Europe to take over when Pippen was wetting the bed.

Btw, Klay's gamescore in the Finals was only 9 alongside Durant - that's only half of the Horry-benchmark - Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals

[1987_Lakers]

Klay?... Klay gets the same thing that he got in 17' and 18' alongside Durant in the Finals - 16 ppg - matched by 96' Kukoc, who had the prodigious talent and assassin shooting from Eastern Europe to take over when Pippen was wetting the bed.


The same Kukoc who averaged 9 ppg on 38 fg% in his 2 playoff runs in '96 & '97? :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Klay?... Klay gets the same thing that he got in 17' and 18' alongside Durant in the Finals - 16 ppg - matched by 96' Kukoc, who had the prodigious talent and assassin shooting from Eastern Europe to take over when Pippen was wetting the bed.

Btw, Klay's gamescore in the Finals was only 9 alongside Durant - that's only half of the Horry-benchmark - Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals
And Horry's '95 Finals gamescore was higher than '96 Jordan's

[Phoenix]

Klay?... Klay gets the same thing that he got in 17' and 18' alongside Durant in the Finals - 16 ppg - matched by 96' Kukoc, who had the prodigious talent and assassin shooting from Eastern Europe to take over when Pippen was wetting the bed.

Btw, Klay's gamescore in the Finals was only 9 alongside Durant - that's only half of the Horry-benchmark - Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals

Kukoc averaged 13ppg on 42% in the 96 finals.7ppg against Orlando and the Knicks.14ppg against the Heat. And 13ppg during the season.Literally not a single instace of averaging 16ppg, whether during the season or playoffs, and in two series didn't even get to double digits but thanks, the port went down nice and easy as I was reading your bullshit.

[Phoenix]

And Horry's '95 Finals gamescore was higher than '96 Jordan's

Higher than most of MJ's notable finals opponents as well except Magic and Barkley.

[Phoenix]

The same Kukoc who averaged 9 ppg on 38 fg% in his 2 playoff runs in '96 & '97? :lol

It's hilarious. Kukoc didn't average 16ppg in any situation in 96, season, for the playoffs, or any individual playoff series. It's like..........3nut posts shit like we don't have the ability to check numbers within 30 seconds.

[3ba11]

Higher than most of MJ's notable finals opponents as well except Magic and Barkley.


Only pippen failed to reach horry-caliber over a meaningful sample (0/6), so only Pippen's caliber is below Horry - everyone else with a meaningful sample size exceeded Horry at some point, such as Kobe or Kyrie, for example.

Ultimately, Pippen is the only sidekick that won more than 2 Finals without getting FMVP or 25 ppg, so MJ won with what no one else could.. Even prime Wade/Bosh couldn't win with Pippen in the 11' Finals




It's hilarious. Kukoc didn't average 16ppg in any situation in 96, season, for the playoffs, or any individual playoff series. It's like..........3nut posts shit like we don't have the ability to check numbers within 30 seconds.


Kukoc averaged 15.2 on 50% in the 98' Finals, compared to Pippen's 15.7 on 41%

And Kukoc actually won a game in the 96' Finals (took over a game), while Pippen just wet the bed

[1987_Lakers]

It's hilarious. Kukoc didn't average 16ppg in any situation in 96, season, for the playoffs, or any individual playoff series. It's like..........3nut posts shit like we don't have the ability to check numbers within 30 seconds.

He also flat out lied about MJ being the primary defender on Reggie in the '98 ECF when it was Harper.

[3ba11]

He also flat out lied about MJ being the primary defender on Reggie in the '98 ECF when it was Harper.


It's a lie to say that Pippen was the primary defender on the opponent's best player when that was MJ's job.. :confusedshrug:.. so you're the liar, not me... and the derail is quite low character I might add

Btw, Kukoc averaged 15.2 on 50% in the 98' Finals, compared to Pippen's 15.7 on 41%.. So I didn't lie and never do..

And Kukoc actually won a game in the 96' Finals (took over a game), while Pippen just wet the bed

[SouBeachTalents]

Only pippen failed to reach horry-caliber over a meaningful sample (0/6), so only Pippen's caliber is below Horry - everyone else with a meaningful sample size exceeded Horry at some point, such as Kobe or Kyrie, for example.

Ultimately, Pippen is the only sidekick that won more than 2 Finals without getting FMVP or 25 ppg, so MJ won with what no one else could.. Even prime Wade/Bosh couldn't win with Pippen in the 11' Finals






Kukoc averaged 15.2 on 50% in the 98' Finals, compared to Pippen's 15.7 on 41%

And Kukoc actually won a game in the 96' Finals (took over a game), while Pippen just wet the bed
Kobe failed to reach Horry caliber in 5/7 Finals, a very meaningful sample size, and I'd bet good money more than any top 25 player of all time.

And which game did Kukoc win in the '96 Finals?

[3ba11]

Kobe failed to reach Horry caliber in 5/7 Finals, a very meaningful sample size, and I'd bet good money more than any top 25 player of all time.

And which game did Kukoc win in the '96 Finals?


the point is that Kobe did infact reach horry-level, while pippen never did, so only pippen is below Horry for sure.

And Kukoc took over Game 1 (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc0&t=29m40s)) and Game 3 (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc0&t=37m32s)) of the 96' Finals, while Pippen never dominated any stretch of any Finals... Only Kukoc and MJ had a "modern" game and would be far superior to Pippen in today's era.