Klay Thompson vs Jeff Hornacek career statistical comparison

[3ba11]

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Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Other guys that were superior statistically to Klay:

Dale Ellis
Reggie Miller
Detlef Schrempf
Alvin Robertson
Sidney Moncrief
Joe Dumars
Terry Porter

many more


Conclusion: Klay is the "pippen" of today's game because both guys have an inflated historical ranking fueled by ring count without the stats or dominance to back it up.. Otoh, Curry is the "jordan" tasked with building organic champions from scratch a 2nd time (Jordan returned in 95' to a borderline lottery team that he restored to 3-peat caliber in his first full season back).

[Axe]

Interestingly, stephen curry doesn't have any actual trip to the playoffs yet without his fellow splash bro by his side. And by the op, it seems his 'oubre > klay' prediction is really serious after all.

[3ba11]

Btw, this isn't a thread to tear anyone down - I've always like Klay and Hornacek both and respected their games although I probably lean Hornacek overall as a player, primarily due to no-spacing, pure scoring ability and superior playmaking.

Hornacek also averaged 1.7 steals during his 5-year peak of 90-94' (18/4/6 and 1.7 tov)

[Axe]

But you think klay is a role player at this point, yes?

[3ba11]

But you think klay is a role player at this point, yes?


Is Oubre better at this point?.. Maybe the Warriors want him back...:lebronamazed:


Now that we know klay is a "pippen", we should see if any of his winning Finals reached a 19.0 gamescore, or "horry-level"... so far, only Pippen never reached horry-level over a meaningul sample size (0/6).

[Axe]

Says the guy who told that giannis was a pippen-caliber player before he got to the 2021 finals. :yaohappy:

[3ba11]

Says the guy who told that giannis was a pippen-caliber player before he got to the 2021 finals. :yaohappy:


Hey... :no:.. I conceded that Curry and Giannis proved me wrong and immediately put them in my top 10 all-time rankings..

This was particularly true once the top 10 all-time criteria were settled upon (knowing how to WIN, aka organic, and having capability of defeating max defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load while winning title/winning brand)

[Axe]

If you say so, andrew.

From top 500 to top 10 in a span of around 10 games lmao.

[3ba11]

If you say so, andrew.

From top 500 to top 10 in a span of around 10 games lmao.


Giannis proved everyone wrong - so don't feel bad - his rise to all-time tier happened so fast..

His 2021 run was superior to anything Lebron ever did because Giannis didn't just amass enough talent to win (team-hopping, talent-based winning), he actually learned how to win (organic).. He also carried the scoring load (defeated max defensive attention) more than Lebron ever did on a title run..

Ultimately, Lebron never learned how to win because he never evolved out of offenses that revolved around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles.. Since he never learned to elevate teammates, he couldn't learn to win (organic chemistry) and had to team-hop (talent-based winning).

[Axe]

Now he's trying to bring up kong again in a thread that has nothing to do with him. How insane. :lol:facepalm

[Phoenix]

Thread title: Klay vs Hornacek. Underlying purpose of thread 'something something Pippen'

Did Scottie dick down your mother or something, OP? It's 2022 mate.

[3ba11]

Now he's trying to bring up kong again in a thread that has nothing to do with him. How insane. :lol:facepalm


Well I figured it was settled that Hornacek > Klay because you guys didn't refute the OP, so I moved on to Pippen because it's related - i.e. by virtue of being less than Hornacek, klay is a "pippen" (overrated by ring count)

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs

by virtue of being inferior to Hornacek, Klay is a "pippen", which means he's overrated by ring count and infact carried by a "jordan" (curry)

[Axe]

:facepalm

[3ba11]

:facepalm


The stats tell a clear and compelling story, much better than any story you could drum up.

And stats are the only thing that matters for 2nd options or less, since they don't dictate brand of ball like 1st options do - i.e. if curry was a ball-dominator like Lebron, the Warriors wouldn't play how they play (ball movement and high team assists) and have the lofty team ceilng/Finals caliber that they have.. They would instead need super-teams rather than Jordan Poole, and even then they'd be perennial underdogs that barely meet that expectation (4/10)

[Lebron23]

3 championships rings is better than 0 ring. Klay is both better than Miller and Hornacek. And also the superior NBA Finals performer. Klay wins the nba finals MVP in 2019 if the Warriors won in 2019


https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-finals-warriors-vs-raptors.html

Thompson never averaged 10 ppg in his 5 nba finals appearance

[TheCorporation]

Says the guy who told that giannis was a pippen-caliber player before he got to the 2021 finals. :yaohappy:

Shut

:dancin

It

:lebronamazed:

DOWN

:hammertime:

[ShawkFactory]

Aw man...I thought that just MAYBE this thread was actually gonna be about Klay and Hornacek.

Should have know better.

[John8204]

If anything this thread should be less about Hornacek, Thompson and Pippen and more indicative of how great John Stockton was as a PG to get Hornaceks numbers up so high (as he did with Malone and Eaton)

[Full Court]

3 championships rings is better than 0 ring. Klay is both better than Miller and Hornacek. And also the superior NBA Finals performer. Klay wins the nba finals MVP in 2019 if the Warriors won in 2019


https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-finals-warriors-vs-raptors.html

Thompson never averaged 10 ppg in his 5 nba finals appearance

If 3 championship rings is better than 0 championship rings.....would you say that 6 championship rings is better than 4 championship rings?

[warriorfan]

5 star thread. They are fuming

[Lebron23]

If 3 championship rings is better than 0 championship rings.....would you say that 6 championship rings is better than 4 championship rings?

Lebron beat better teams than Jordan in the NBA Finals

[Ne 1]

Klay is also a 5x All-Star, with All-NBA and All-Defensive team honors on his resume. Record holder for the most points in a single quarter. Recordin holder for the most three-pointers in a single postseason. Btw, did you do 20,000 minutes to 4,000 minutes?

[AirBonner]

Op has Giannis in his top 5. Giannis is confirmed a “Pippen level player” by op. Op essentially thinks Pippen is top 5 all time

[3ba11]

Lebron beat better teams than Jordan in the NBA Finals


Lebron had an extra all-star teammate - an extra Pippen - Jordan would've beaten any team in history with an extra all-star teammate (an extra Pippen)

Btw, Kyrie and Love were perennial all-stars, so Lebron never overcame a talent deficit in the Finals, whereas Jordan beat teams with more all-stars in 93' and 96', while also upsetting the #1 SRS team with nothing in 89'.

Ultimately, we know that Lebron underachieves the expectation because he turned the hand-picked, preseason favorite into Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16'), except the Ray Allen miracle

[tpols]

Klay is generally really underwhelming in the playoffs. He gets hot once in a while but usually plays like a role player. If he's not hitting his shots he's useless. That's why I always hated when people said klay was Reggie + defense. Reggie scored on a waaay better rate, higher volume, and did it as 1st option in a tougher defensive climate. Klay isn't even close.

[3ba11]

3 championships rings is better than 0 ring. Klay is both better than Miller and Hornacek. And also the superior NBA Finals performer. Klay wins the nba finals MVP in 2019 if the Warriors won in 2019


https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2019-nba-finals-warriors-vs-raptors.html

Thompson never averaged 10 ppg in his 5 nba finals appearance


Klay was carried by Curry or KD to titles, while Miller was the 1st option who never had a single all-star teammate, yet nearly beat Jordan and Shaq/Kobe dynasty, with numerous other historic runs and clutch carry-jobs..

Miller is a goat-level playoff performer with slays like Kobe and Ray Allen on his resume, while Klay was carried and wet the bed a lot despite never being the top guy on his team.

Then there's the stats - if Hornacek destroys Klay, what do you think Miller will do?.. Heck, Miller drastically outplayed Pippen 6 times against the same playoff opponent (stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times))

[Full Court]

Lebron beat better teams than Jordan in the NBA Finals

He also lost to worse teams than Jordan beat.

Also



-86

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Curry - he's curry

Draymond - playmaker, defense anchor, vorp playoff leader in 2016

Durant - 2x finals mvp

Iggy - finals mvp

This dude has been the 5th most important player of their success and he's always crying about all nba teams and top 75 lists. F'n moron.

[Spurs m8]

5 star thread. They are fuming

Absolutely seething

[Ne 1]

Klay is generally really underwhelming in the playoffs. He gets hot once in a while but usually plays like a role player. If he's not hitting his shots he's useless. That's why I always hated when people said klay was Reggie + defense. Reggie scored on a waaay better rate, higher volume, and did it as 1st option in a tougher defensive climate. Klay isn't even close.

The fact you say tougher defensive climate means you obviously didn't watch! Back then defenders dared players to shoot 3's cause they thought it was a dumb shot/gimmick! Today players getting ran off the line!

You obviously don't either watch or understand basketball like that.

[Ne 1]

Klay was carried by Curry or KD to titles, while Miller was the 1st option who never had a single all-star teammate, yet nearly beat Jordan and Shaq/Kobe dynasty, with numerous other historic runs and clutch carry-jobs..

Miller is a goat-level playoff performer with slays like Kobe and Ray Allen on his resume, while Klay was carried and wet the bed a lot despite never being the top guy on his team.

Then there's the stats - if Hornacek destroys Klay, what do you think Miller will do?.. Heck, Miller drastically outplayed Pippen 6 times against the same playoff opponent (stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times))
He actually doesn’t. You’re just cherry picking certain numbers. Did you even watch Jeff play? lol cause you are talking like you never watched the man!

[3ba11]

The fact you say tougher defensive climate means you obviously didn't watch! Back then defenders dared players to shoot 3's cause they thought it was a dumb shot/gimmick! Today players getting ran off the line!

You obviously don't either watch or understand basketball like that.


Previous eras didn't have today's high screen and drive-and-kick format that yields open kickouts and 3-point attempts - Klay just has to stand there and wait for kickouts, whereas guys like Reggie Miller had to run off a million screens with someone stuck to him like white on rice... No one was letting good shooters get open back then and there was no format to get a bunch of open kickouts..

And the OP literally uses their career stats - the definition of NOT cherry-picking

[Thenameless]

Giannis proved everyone wrong - so don't feel bad - his rise to all-time tier happened so fast..

His 2021 run was superior to anything Lebron ever did because Giannis didn't just amass enough talent to win (team-hopping, talent-based winning), he actually learned how to win (organic).. He also carried the scoring load (defeated max defensive attention) more than Lebron ever did on a title run..

Ultimately, Lebron never learned how to win because he never evolved out of offenses that revolved around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles.. Since he never learned to elevate teammates, he couldn't learn to win (organic chemistry) and had to team-hop (talent-based winning).

I totally respect that Giannis did it the hard way, but we have to remember that just like when the Raptors won, there was quite a bit of injury luck involved. A complete GSW team walks all over the 2019 Raptors. In the same vein, a healthy Nets beats the Bucks, and we're still calling the Bucks a regular season team that can't get it done in the playoffs, and Budenholzer probably doesn't have a job right now. But, you can only play what's in front of you.

[3ba11]

I totally respect that Giannis did it the hard way, but we have to remember that just like when the Raptors won, there was quite a bit of injury luck involved. A complete GSW team walks all over the 2019 Raptors. In the same vein, a healthy Nets beats the Bucks, and we're still calling the Bucks a regular season team that can't get it done in the playoffs, and Budenholzer probably doesn't have a job right now. But, you can only play what's in front of you.


Kyrie beat an injured Warrior team in 16'

And the Warriors won when Kyrie was hurt in 15'

So you could make an injury case for every title

The point is that Giannis learned how to win (organic chemistry), while Lebron only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning).

Lebron literally doesn't know how to win - he only knows how to amass enough talent to win... And even then, his hand-picked preseason favorite super-teams (11-16') become perennial Finals underdogs that barely meet the underdog expectation (4/10)

[Axe]

I totally respect that Giannis did it the hard way, but we have to remember that just like when the Raptors won, there was quite a bit of injury luck involved. A complete GSW team walks all over the 2019 Raptors. In the same vein, a healthy Nets beats the Bucks, and we're still calling the Bucks a regular season team that can't get it done in the playoffs, and Budenholzer probably doesn't have a job right now. But, you can only play what's in front of you.
While you do have a point, the same thing can be said for the warriors in their three recent title runs in the league. 2015 had cavs losing kevin love before the finals and kyrie irving early in the finals, 2017 saw zaza put up a dirty play on spurs' kawhi in the first game of the wcf that resulted to aggravating his existing injury while 2018 saw rockets' cp3 injury late in the wcf and lebron with an undisclosed finger contusion in game 1 of the finals (even if that was self-inflicted). So i'm guessing it goes both ways.

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs


After Lebron's preseason favorites from 2011-2016 became Finals underdogs, he whined about Finals comp, thus weaponizing losing and having weaker teams than expected.

So Lebron is a fraud and his fans are sad victims.

And most people itt were shocked that Klay < Hornacek statistically across the board.. So Klay is like Pippen (inflated historical ranking fueled by ring count but with no stats or dominance to back it up).

[3ba11]

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Revised Thread Cliffs


No one would talk about Lebron's Finals comp if the 2016 Finals was a meeting of 2 titans with close odds

But instead, Lebron's preseason favorite fell to massive Finals underdog, and then his fans complained about Finals comp..

This type of fraud is typical of Lebron's career because his resume would be garbage without forming super-teams in a conference that Dwight was winning by himself, along with other 1-star teams (Iverson, Kidd).

Ultimately, Lebron had a super-team and the preseason favorite from 2011-2016, so he can't complain about being a Finals underdog those years.

[3ba11]

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Revised Thread Cliffs


No one would talk about Lebron's Finals comp if the 2016 Finals was a meeting of 2 titans with close odds

But instead, Lebron's preseason favorite fell to massive Finals underdog, and then his fans complained about Finals comp..

This type of fraud is typical of Lebron's career because his resume would be garbage without forming super-teams in a conference that Dwight was winning by himself, along with other 1-star teams (Iverson, Kidd).

Ultimately, Lebron had a super-team and the preseason favorite from 2011-2016, so he can't complain about being a Finals underdog those years.



Boom

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs

* Hornacek > Klay

* Malone > Dray

* Stockton is comparable to Curry (kills Curry in clutch)


CONCLUSION: 98' Jazz and 16' Warriors would be dogfight that the Jazz could win