KD, Beal, Harden & PG13 all won more with Westbrook than Lebron because

[3ba11]

THEY COULD PLAY OFF-BALL

(or in Harden's case average 35 as scoring champ)

Lebron should be resorting to a Reggie Miller/Rip Hamilton/MJ off-ball game, which would allow both Lebron and Westbrook to get maximum production, similar to MJ/Pippen.

If both Lebron and Westbrook played to full capacity, the Lakers would be the dominant favorite that everyone expected.. Unfortunately, Lebron can't play off-ball (he sucks), so the Lakers suck . Bad teammate fits = skill deficit

[StrongLurk]

OP is miserable.

[3ba11]

OP is miserable.


My life is dimensions superior to yours I can assure you

Now back on topic

[StrongLurk]

My life is dimensions superior to yours I can assure you

Now back on topic

We can all feel the unhappiness and toxicity through your spamming of this board.

[TheCorporation]

3ball,

We can all feel the unhappiness and toxicity through your spamming of this board.

[ImKobe]

No shit. WB and Lebron are a horrible fit. Harden and Westbrook both needed the ball as well though, Harden was not a good off-ball player (just like Lebron) but the duo worked when they got rid of Capela and used PJ Tucker at the 5 until Westbrook injured his quad and got COVID.

Bron and Russ COULD work as Lebron's worked on his 3PT range but that would require better 3PT shooting around them. They tried the Bron at 5 gimmick to copy what Houston did, but this team is not good enough because 2022 Lebron is nowhere near as good as 2019/20 Harden and Westbrook is older as well and AD can't stretch the floor with the way he's been shooting the 3 so they will have to limit Westbrook's minutes at some point. He's playing way too minutes for how anemic he is. 28-30 mpg would be fine as you just give him ALL the non-Lebron minutes and play them together early on and bench Russ at the end of games.

[ShawkFactory]

No shit. WB and Lebron are a horrible fit. Harden and Westbrook both needed the ball as well though, Harden was not a good off-ball player (just like Lebron) but the duo worked when they got rid of Capela and used PJ Tucker at the 5 until Westbrook injured his quad and got COVID.

Bron and Russ COULD work as Lebron's worked on his 3PT range but that would require better 3PT shooting around them. They tried the Bron at 5 gimmick to copy what Houston did, but this team is not good enough because 2022 Lebron is nowhere near as good as 2019/20 Harden and Westbrook is older as well and AD can't stretch the floor with the way he's been shooting the 3 so they will have to limit Westbrook's minutes at some point. He's playing way too minutes for how anemic he is. 28-30 mpg would be fine as you just give him ALL the non-Lebron minutes and play them together early on and bench Russ at the end of games.

They aren't even CLOSE to the same level off ball. When Harden doesn't have the ball he literally just doesn't move.

While on-ball is certainly Lebron's strength, he is in no way a bad off ball player. That's a myth perpetrated by OP and other haters. And it's been spoken about so much that some actually start to believe it.

[ImKobe]

There aren't even CLOSE to the same level off ball. When Harden doesn't have the ball he literally just doesn't move.

While on-ball is certainly Lebron's strength, he is in no way a bad off ball player. That's a myth perpetrated by OP and other haters. And it's been spoken about so much that some actually start to believe it.

Yes, peak Lebron in Miami did a bunch of things off-ball with Wade initiating the offense but that was 10 years ago, he's not going to do all that at this stage in his career.

[StrongLurk]

Yes, peak Lebron in Miami did a bunch of things off-ball with Wade initiating the offense but that was 10 years ago, he's not going to do all that at this stage in his career.

He definitely has, have you seen his stretch at Center and playing the "giannis" role often in pick and roll?

Westbrook has the ball more than anyone on the Lakers.

Also, no one can fix Westbrook's problems except Westbrook. Blaming stuff like THIS on other players like Lebron is just being a hater/troll.

https://twitter.com/JordanN1333272/status/1479180922096218113

Westbrook leads the league in turnovers, is literally in the bottom five for volume jumpshooting efficiency, and has a negative BPM...these are all Westbrook's problems, not team fit.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes, peak Lebron in Miami did a bunch of things off-ball with Wade initiating the offense but that was 10 years ago, he's not going to do all that at this stage in his career.

Watch dude. He's cutting and moving and spotting up pretty regularly.

It's just strange to compare him to Harden, who is completely useless and disinterested when he isn't dribbling.

[ImKobe]

He definitely has, have you seen his stretch at Center and playing the "giannis" role often in pick and roll?

Westbrook has the ball more than anyone on the Lakers.

Also, no one can fix Westbrook's problems except Westbrook. Blaming stuff like THIS on other players like Lebron is just being a hater/troll.

https://twitter.com/JordanN1333272/status/1479180922096218113

Westbrook leads the league in turnovers, is literally in the bottom five for volume jumpshooting efficiency, and has a negative BPM...these are all Westbrook's problems, not team fit.

He did initially but it didn't work because of how turnover-prone Russ is and how much the offense stagnated so now they've taken the ball out of Russ's hands more (0.8 TO in the last 5 games) and it got even worse with them losing 3 straight and getting blown off the court by Memphis & Denver. People want to blame Westbrook's poor shooting but these losses are mainly on the Lakers' defense and while he does contribute to bad defensive possessions, it's a team/chemistry issue on a bigger level and not just a Russ thing. It's a poorly constructed roster and while there have been significant injuries that have contributed to a 21 - 22 record (AD, Bron both missing games), it's still mostly a team of aging vets, who are not interested in playing hard every game and who are going to take possessions off defensively, so as a result you have this mess. Lebron & Russ put this thing together so you have to blame both equally for the shortcomings of this team.

If you look at the on/off numbers, the Lakers are a positive on the court with Bron & Russ both on with a 115 ORTG, the issue is their defense and both of them make the Lakers' defense worse right now due to the gimmicky line ups where the team just doesn't have any rim protection. The only solution to this is that AD comes back and fixes some of their issues on both the D and the O and they can finally start winning games against good teams to get to the 5-6 spot by the end of the season.

[StrongLurk]

He did initially but it didn't work because of how turnover-prone Russ is and how much the offense stagnated so now they've taken the ball out of Russ's hands more (0.8 TO in the last 5 games) and it got even worse with them losing 3 straight and getting blown off the court by Memphis & Denver. People want to blame Westbrook's poor shooting but these losses are mainly on the Lakers' defense and while he does contribute to bad defensive possessions, it's a team/chemistry issue on a bigger level and not just a Russ thing. It's a poorly constructed roster and while there have been significant injuries that have contributed to a 21 - 22 record (AD, Bron both missing games), it's still mostly a team of aging vets, who are not interested in playing hard every game and who are going to take possessions off defensively, so as a result you have this mess. Lebron & Russ put this thing together so you have to blame both equally for the shortcomings of this team.

If you look at the on/off numbers, the Lakers are a positive on the court with Bron & Russ both on with a 115 ORTG, the issue is their defense and both of them make the Lakers' defense worse right now due to the gimmicky line ups where the team just doesn't have any rim protection. The only solution to this is that AD comes back and fixes some of their issues on both the D and the O and they can finally start winning games against good teams to get to the 5-6 spot by the end of the season.

I completely agree the Lakers have other problems than Westbrook such as Lebron/AD missing a lot of games, a super old washed team that can't keep up in a fast league, and also general roster fit issues.

This Lakers team, just like last year's team, will only go as far as Lebron/AD can take them...they will get no where if Lebron or AD is injured and unavailable. But even with both of them, they aren't going to make the finals...they are just way worse as a team than the championship team from two years ago.

[3ba11]

They aren't even CLOSE to the same level off ball. When Harden doesn't have the ball he literally just doesn't move.

While on-ball is certainly Lebron's strength, he is in no way a bad off ball player. That's a myth perpetrated by OP and other haters. And it's been spoken about so much that some actually start to believe it.


Westbrook would get 24/8/10 alongside Jordan just like he did with PG13, Beal or KD

Teams are better when everyone achieves close to their maximum stats, but Lebron craters certain player types.

So Lebron < Jordan because of off-ball.... and how this impacts teammate fits, team strategy, and team ceiling

It's as simple as that.. Not every off-ball player is better than Lebron, but the off-ball aspect becomes a differentiator when other areas are equal or better as well (ring count, accolades, stats, etc)

[3ba11]

Watch dude. He's cutting and moving and spotting up pretty regularly.

It's just strange to compare him to Harden, who is completely useless and disinterested when he isn't dribbling.


As long as Lebron holds the ball a point guard amount, he isn't playing any other position except point guard and being a 2nd point guard on the floor.. Teammates simply have less hold-time and assists in lineups with 2 ball-dominators instead of 1... :confusedshrug:

So you can say he's cutting and moving, but he's still mostly dominating the ball at hugely abnormal rate for the position he's starting at (frontcourt position), which creates inherently suboptimal style of play/team strategy.

[3ba11]

We can all feel the unhappiness and toxicity through your spamming of this board.


It's a hobby that I enjoy.. You don't have an issue with the Lebron spammers... You only pretend to talk down to Jordan stans

[StrongLurk]

It's a hobby that I enjoy.. You don't have an issue with the Lebron spammers... You only pretend to talk down to Jordan stans

You don't enjoy doing what you do...you just vent out of desperation and misery about basketball on internet forums. See a therapist instead.

[Indian guy]

This sure is an apples to apples comparison. KD, Beal, Harden and PG13 were all 37 years old playing with a 33 year old Westbrook during their stints together.

[3ba11]

You don't enjoy doing what you do...you just vent out of desperation and misery about basketball on internet forums. See a therapist instead.


This is what I do.. I don't work a 9 to 5.. Only group-think lapdogs do that

Isn't it cool to spend your life doing what you love?.. one day, everyone will evolve to that.. they'll spend their days pursuing their passions and/or persuade people to their way of thinking.. guys with tons of money already do this (pursue passions like flying to space or convincing people of shit by purchasing the Washington Post)

[3ba11]

after Lebron's preseason favorites from 2011-2016 became Finals underdogs, he whined about Finals comp, thus weaponizing losing and having weaker teams than expected.

So Lebron is a fraud and his fans are sad victims.

[StrongLurk]

This is what I do.. I don't work a 9 to 5.. Only group-think lapdogs do that

Isn't it cool to spend your life doing what you love?.. one day, everyone will evolve to that.. they'll spend their days pursuing their passions and/or persuade people to their way of thinking.. guys with tons of money already do this (pursue passions like flying to space or convincing people of shit by purchasing the Washington Post)

Yes, we can all see you desperately venting your misery spamming this board shamelessly everyday. Again, go see a therapist...you need help. The fact that you "love" obsessing over your hatred of Lebron shows how toxic and miserable your mindset is.

[3ba11]

Yes, we can all see you desperately venting your misery spamming this board shamelessly everyday. Again, go see a therapist...you need help. The fact that you "love" obsessing over your hatred of Lebron shows how toxic and miserable your mindset is.


You sound obsessed.. seek help

[Spurs m8]

Ita amazing LeBarry still hasn't developed any off ball game, what so ever.

Most selfish and one dimensional, overrated player ever.

Manufactured.

We see through it.

[StrongLurk]

Ita amazing LeBarry still hasn't developed any off ball game, what so ever.

Most selfish and one dimensional, overrated player ever.

Manufactured.

We see through it.

Where do you rate Lebron on the all-time lists? I've only seen you post about him, in fact more than the Lebron stans themselves...weird stuff.

[3ba11]

Where do you rate Lebron on the all-time lists? I've only seen you post about him, in fact more than the Lebron stans themselves...weird stuff.


The best players in history knew how to win (organic), and they could defeat maximum defensive attention (win chip while carrying scoring load in Playoff and Finals)

Lebron has done neither of these things - he only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning) and never learned to win (organic chemistry), while always needing equal-scoring partners in the playoffs or Finals to win (or close to it).

Lebron never learned to win because he never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles.. Since he can't elevate teammates, he couldn't learn to win (organic chemistry) and had to team-hop (talent-based winning).

[imdaman99]

Just last year, Westbrook was able to sweep teams like the Jazz, Nuggets, Lakers, etc. And this year he's turned into one of the worst players in the league. I can't say it's all on him, it's the system and the type of basketball they play. It's fine, we'll toss it up to him being trash and older and worse.

[kawhileonard2]

THEY COULD PLAY OFF-BALL

(or in Harden's case average 35 as scoring champ)

Lebron should be resorting to a Reggie Miller/Rip Hamilton/MJ off-ball game, which would allow both Lebron and Westbrook to get maximum production, similar to MJ/Pippen.

If both Lebron and Westbrook played to full capacity, the Lakers would be the dominant favorite that everyone expected.. Unfortunately, Lebron can't play off-ball (he sucks), so the Lakers suck . Bad teammate fits = skill deficit

Good post

[3ba11]

Only Lebron couldn't make playoffs with Westbrook, while everyone else like Beal, Harden, PG13 and Durant made it with Westie

[HighFlyer23]

Only Lebron couldn't make playoffs with Westbrook, while everyone else like Beal, Harden, PG13 and Durant made it with Westie

Shut the fvck up

[r15mohd]

Only Lebron couldn't make playoffs with Westbrook, while everyone else like Beal, Harden, PG13 and Durant made it with Westie

simple question - if lebron was not injured for say 10 games instead of the 20+ this year, do they make the playoffs?

[RRR3]

simple question - if lebron was not injured for say 10 games instead of the 20+ this year, do they make the playoffs?
Forgetting AD missing an insane amount of games too.

[r15mohd]

Forgetting AD missing an insane amount of games too.

AD status remains unchanged in playing 40 games only, and only Lebron being available for 10 additional games - are they in?

seems the correlation OP is trying to make is just more agenda driven nonsense in that Lebron was reason, and the real reason the Lakers were not contenders this year was due to injury - no matter what rhetoric you try to spin it with

[RRR3]

OP literally doesn't know what a sweep is.

[3ba11]

OP literally doesn't know what a sweep is.


Are you referring to KD and Kyrie's shit brand of your-turn-my-turn and Durant being past his prime (shitting the bed against the same team he dominated last yr)

Their brand was actually worse than Lebron's... A lot worse.. but they didn't have goat Spo or Lue as coaches

[3ba11]

AD status remains unchanged in playing 40 games only, and only Lebron being available for 10 additional games - are they in?

seems the correlation OP is trying to make is just more agenda driven nonsense in that Lebron was reason, and the real reason the Lakers were not contenders this year was due to injury - no matter what rhetoric you try to spin it with


AD missed 40 games just like 98' Pippen, yet the Bulls won the title and had the 1 seed.

Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr. missed 82 games

However, the 22' Nuggets and 90's Bulls still contended despite the loss of talent because they had superior BRAND OF BALL (strategy, chemistry, teammate fits)..

Teams win games for 2 reasons - talent and brand of ball - the Nuggets/Bulls had sufficient brand to offset the loss of talent.

Otoh, Lebron's big man ball-dominance is the worst kind of ball-dominance that makes everyone stand in the corner, so he must win based on talent (team-hopping... all-star team strategy).. Lebron never learned how to win (brand of ball.. organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning).

Ultimately, only a poor brand of ball can make favored talent underachieve, and we saw Lebron's woat brand make his preseason favorites fall to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16'), except the Ray Allen miracle... Now we see more falling from favorite to underdog in 21' and 22'.

[RRR3]

Are you referring to KD and Kyrie's shit brand of your-turn-my-turn and Durant being past his prime (shitting the bed against the same team he dominated last yr)

Their brand was actually worse than Lebron's... A lot worse.. but they didn't have goat Spo or Lue as coaches
No, I'm referring to you saying MJ was never swept like a moron.

[3ba11]

No, I'm referring to you saying MJ was never swept like a moron.


A sweep is 4-0

So MJ... 1) was never swept.. 2) never lost as favorite.. 3) never lost in Finals.. 4) never lost with good team (1 or 2 seed).. 5) never lost with all-star teammate (except migraine year and baseball year)

No one is touching that

He also faced maximum defensive attention in every series (carried scoring load), so everyone's stats are inflated by comparison by virtue of not having to always carry scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention)..

[RRR3]

A sweep is 4-0

So MJ... 1) was never swept.. 2) never lost as favorite.. 3) never lost in Finals.. 4) never lost with good team (1 or 2 seed).. 5) never lost with all-star teammate (except migraine year and baseball year)

No one is touching that

He also faced maximum defensive attention in every series (carried scoring load), so everyone's stats are inflated by comparison by virtue of not having to always carry scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention)..
So your response is to just prove you don’t know what a sweep is :lol

[Airupthere]

This sure is an apples to apples comparison. KD, Beal, Harden and PG13 were all 37 years old playing with a 33 year old Westbrook during their stints together.

Doesn't have anything to do with lebron's age. He was statpadding and sucked as a leader, perhaps even backstabbing westbrook. Westbrook played the worst with Lebron and that is no coincidence. It happened to many other players.

[3ba11]

So your response is to just prove you don’t know what a sweep is :lol


Lebron was swept 4-0 twice and has a 3rd series that was a record loss.

When was MJ swept 4-0?... Don't dodge.... When was MJ swept 4-0??

[RRR3]

Lebron was swept 4-0 twice and has a 3rd series that was a record loss.

When was MJ swept 4-0?... Don't dodge.... When was MJ swept 4-0??
When was LeBron swept 3-0?

[3ba11]

When was LeBron swept 3-0?


2017 Finals

He was down 0-3... :confusedshrug:

Then Kyrie dropped a 40-piece in Game 4 to carry the Cavs and prevent an official 4-0 sweep

Kyrie has the same career Finals average as Lebron (28)

[RRR3]

2017 Finals

He was down 0-3... :confusedshrug:

Then Kyrie dropped a 40-piece in Game 4 to carry the Cavs and prevent an official 4-0 sweep

Kyrie has the same career Finals average as Lebron (28)
So he was never swept 3-0 got it. You lose again. How come the concept of the word “sweep” is so hard for you? Dropped on your head as a kid?

[3ba11]

So he was never swept 3-0 got it. You lose again. How come the concept of the word “sweep” is so hard for you? Dropped on your head as a kid?


The crazy part is that when we compare both 0-3 deficits (17' Finals vs 86' 1st Round), we see that Lebron's Cavs were getting beat FAR worse than Jordan's 8 seed lost to the 86' Celtics... So Jordan was leading an 8 seed to better team performance than Lebron's defending champion super-team

Indeed, the facts, stats and historical record always CONFIRM that MJ is goat

[RRR3]

The historical record confirms MJ got swept.

[ShawkFactory]

A sweep is 4-0

So MJ... 1) was never swept.. 2) never lost as favorite.. 3) never lost in Finals.. 4) never lost with good team (1 or 2 seed).. 5) never lost with all-star teammate (except migraine year and baseball year)

No one is touching that

He also faced maximum defensive attention in every series (carried scoring load), so everyone's stats are inflated by comparison by virtue of not having to always carry scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention)..

If we're not going to count losing 0-3 as a sweep should we also not really count winning 3-2?

[r15mohd]

AD missed 40 games just like 98' Pippen, yet the Bulls won the title and had the 1 seed.

Jamal Murray and Michael Porter Jr. missed 82 games

However, the 22' Nuggets and 90's Bulls still contended despite the loss of talent because they had superior BRAND OF BALL (strategy, chemistry, teammate fits)..

Teams win games for 2 reasons - talent and brand of ball - the Nuggets/Bulls had sufficient brand to offset the loss of talent.

Otoh, Lebron's big man ball-dominance is the worst kind of ball-dominance that makes everyone stand in the corner, so he must win based on talent (team-hopping... all-star team strategy).. Lebron never learned how to win (brand of ball.. organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning).

Ultimately, only a poor brand of ball can make favored talent underachieve, and we saw Lebron's woat brand make his preseason favorites fall to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16'), except the Ray Allen miracle... Now we see more falling from favorite to underdog in 21' and 22'.

Would be nice to compare like terms…wouldn’t it
Jordan played 82 games
Jokic played 74 games
Lebron played 56 games

You can bring up all the excuses you want about brand of ball (which is flawed, as I’ve pointed out, as that stat is wrong half the time in its assumption – stupid take, but we get the agenda use by you). Ray Allen hitting a 3pt shot which he was specifically paid by the Heat to do, and whatever else you can find in your Lebron folder…doesn’t change the fact that had Lebron played more games like MJ or Jokic, they are in the playoffs and this thread is non-existent, and that’s with a horrible fit in Westbrook/Lebron tandem

so to answer the thread question...'KD, Beal, Harden & PG13 all won more with Westbrook than Lebron because he (Lebron) was injured'

[r15mohd]

is 3ball really saying 3-0 series loss in not a sweep...what world do you live in :facepalm

[RRR3]

is 3ball really saying 3-0 series loss in not a sweep...what world do you live in :facepalm
One in which doors are almost impossible to open.

[tpols]

Would be nice to compare like terms…wouldn’t it
Jordan played 82 games
Jokic played 74 games
Lebron played 56 games

You can bring up all the excuses you want about brand of ball (which is flawed, as I’ve pointed out, as that stat is wrong half the time in its assumption – stupid take, but we get the agenda use by you). Ray Allen hitting a 3pt shot which he was specifically paid by the Heat to do, and whatever else you can find in your Lebron folder…doesn’t change the fact that had Lebron played more games like MJ or Jokic, they are in the playoffs and this thread is non-existent, and that’s with a horrible fit in Westbrook/Lebron tandem

so to answer the thread question...'KD, Beal, Harden & PG13 all won more with Westbrook than Lebron because he (Lebron) was injured'

The Lakers were out of the playoff race before LeBron started to sit out the season towards the end. He only did that to save face. He did the same thing in 2019. Its a reoccurring pattern.

[r15mohd]

The Lakers were out of the playoff race before LeBron started to sit out the season towards the end. He only did that to save face. He did the same thing in 2019. Its a reoccurring pattern.

again, keeping it in like terms, since you seem to overlook this specific piece - Lebron missed roughly 20 games prior to the end of the season due to injury, and the LAL missed the playoffs by 3 games

Lebron was 25-31 in the games played this year...if he doesnt miss the 20-ish games due to INJURY, thats an additional 8-9 games in the win column given the avg. Season result is and always will be due to health of the team. the Westbrook fit doesnt supersede that.

[red1]

OP is mentally ill.


it is an established fact.

[3ba11]

again, keeping it in like terms, since you seem to overlook this specific piece - Lebron missed roughly 20 games prior to the end of the season due to injury, and the LAL missed the playoffs by 3 games

Lebron was 25-31 in the games played this year...if he doesnt miss the 20-ish games due to INJURY, thats an additional 8-9 games in the win column given the avg. Season result is and always will be due to health of the team. the Westbrook fit doesnt supersede that.


Exactly and 39-year Jordan only played 60 games (30-30), while his Wizards won 37 games - Jordan's team met expectation despite major injuries to MJ and Rip while Lebron's favored super-team collapsed