Why do so many teams "get hot" on Lebron's teams?

[3ba11]

09' Magic, 11' Mavs, 14' Spurs, 17' Warriors, 18' Warriors, 21' Suns, 10' Celtics

[ShawkFactory]

The only teams there that "got hot" in a sense that they played better than normal offensively were in 09 Magic and 14 Spurs. And even IF it were true for all seven of those teams (its not), that's still 7/50 playoff series Lebron has been a part of in his career.

[TheCorporation]

The only teams there that "got hot" in a sense that they played better than normal offensively were in 09 Magic and 14 Spurs. And even IF it were true for all seven of those teams (its not), that's still 7/50 playoff series Lebron has been a part of in his career.

[tpols]

Ive been watching a lot of street ball channels... Chris white type teams where EVERY possesion... is some gleague drop out who relishes in his dribble breakdown 3pt chuck or dunk game... running the offense. There is zero off ball movement or team cohesion. Its literally a your turn my turn hand off.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lets see how much some of these teams actually "went off"

2009 Magic
Regular season: 101 ppg, 109.2 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 103.7 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2010 Celtics
Regular season: 99.2 ppg, 107.7 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 100.5 ppg, 108.8 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Heat: 94.7 ppg, 110.7 ORTG

2014 Spurs
Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG

2021 Suns
Regular season: 115.3 ppg, 117.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 104 ppg, 111.9 ORTG

The Suns were significantly worse across the board, the Mavs had a clear drop off in ppg, and the Celtics had an essentially negligible increase. The only increase in number that truly jumps out to you is the Spurs ORTG, but even they averaged a nearly identical ppg that they did in the regular season.

Let's take a look at some of OP's favorite players series

2003 Spurs
Regular season: 95.8 ppg, 105.6 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 99.5 ppg, 110.1 ORTG

2004 Pistons
Regular season: 90.2 ppg, 102 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 90.8 ppg, 106.7 ORTG

2008 Celtics
Regular season: 100.5 ppg, 110.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.2 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.3 ppg, 116.7 ORTG

Looks like his teams fall into the same pattern defensively in several series.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

2014 Spurs
Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG.

You can thank one guy for that....indubitably


https://youtu.be/3HuFgw-B3L8

[HoopsNY]

Lets see how much some of these teams actually "went off"

2009 Magic
Regular season: 101 ppg, 109.2 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 103.7 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2010 Celtics
Regular season: 99.2 ppg, 107.7 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 100.5 ppg, 108.8 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Heat: 94.7 ppg, 110.7 ORTG

2014 Spurs
Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG

2021 Suns
Regular season: 115.3 ppg, 117.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 104 ppg, 111.9 ORTG

The Suns were significantly worse across the board, the Mavs had a clear drop off in ppg, and the Celtics had an essentially negligible increase. The only increase in number that truly jumps out to you is the Spurs ORTG, but even they averaged a nearly identical ppg that they did in the regular season.

Let's take a look at some of OP's favorite players series

2003 Spurs
Regular season: 95.8 ppg, 105.6 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 99.5 ppg, 110.1 ORTG

2004 Pistons
Regular season: 90.2 ppg, 102 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 90.8 ppg, 106.7 ORTG

2008 Celtics
Regular season: 100.5 ppg, 110.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.2 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.3 ppg, 116.7 ORTG

Looks like his teams fall into the same pattern defensively in several series.

Ether...3ball will obfuscate as usual

[ShawkFactory]

Lets see how much some of these teams actually "went off"

2009 Magic
Regular season: 101 ppg, 109.2 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 103.7 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2010 Celtics
Regular season: 99.2 ppg, 107.7 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 100.5 ppg, 108.8 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Heat: 94.7 ppg, 110.7 ORTG

2014 Spurs
Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG

2021 Suns
Regular season: 115.3 ppg, 117.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 104 ppg, 111.9 ORTG

The Suns were significantly worse across the board, the Mavs had a clear drop off in ppg, and the Celtics had an essentially negligible increase. The only increase in number that truly jumps out to you is the Spurs ORTG, but even they averaged a nearly identical ppg that they did in the regular season.

Let's take a look at some of OP's favorite players series

2003 Spurs
Regular season: 95.8 ppg, 105.6 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 99.5 ppg, 110.1 ORTG

2004 Pistons
Regular season: 90.2 ppg, 102 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 90.8 ppg, 106.7 ORTG

2008 Celtics
Regular season: 100.5 ppg, 110.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.2 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.3 ppg, 116.7 ORTG

Looks like his teams fall into the same pattern defensively in several series.

I didn’t look into the actual numbers but yea that makes sense. 09 and 14 are the only actual ones

[kawhileonard2]

09' Magic, 11' Mavs, 14' Spurs, 17' Warriors, 18' Warriors, 21' Suns, 10' Celtics

Good stuff!

[PP34Deuce]

That game was a disappointment and showed they didn't want to compete until too late.

Vogel rotations showed he's trying to get fired. He's got a ring in LA. He's still got a great reputation and he's under 50. He's definitely trying to get fired get paid and then find his next great coaching destination.

Bron and team don't really care. They act like they do but they honestly look like they just wanna compete make the playoffs and lose first round.

[3ba11]

Lets see how much some of these teams actually "went off"

2009 Magic
Regular season: 101 ppg, 109.2 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 103.7 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2010 Celtics
Regular season: 99.2 ppg, 107.7 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 100.5 ppg, 108.8 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Heat: 94.7 ppg, 110.7 ORTG

2014 Spurs
Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG

2021 Suns
Regular season: 115.3 ppg, 117.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 104 ppg,
ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.3 ppg, 116.7 ORTG






Every series you posted showed the opponent with higher ORTG against Lebron's teams than the regular season... :confusedshrug:

But it's irrelevant anyway because it's specific to each series - if one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series.

And why deny basketball 101?.. Why go out of your way to have erroneous knowledge - ball-dominance simply DOES let the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively... Hoops 101.. learn it

[SouBeachTalents]

Every series you posted showed the opponent with higher ORTG against Lebron's teams than the regular season... :confusedshrug:

But it's irrelevant anyway because it's specific to each series - if one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series.

And why deny basketball 101?.. Why go out of your way to have erroneous knowledge - ball-dominance simply DOES let the defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively... Hoops 101.. learn it
Since you wanna go the offensive rating route

2003 Spurs
Regular season: 105.6
vs. Lakers: 110.1

2004 Pistons
Regular season: 102
vs. Lakers: 106.7

2006 Suns
Regular season: 111.5
vs. Lakers: 114.2

2008 Celtics
Regular season: 110.2
vs. Lakers: 113.3

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 109.7
vs. Lakers: 116.7

2012 Thunder
Regular season: 109.8
vs. Lakers: 115

How do you explain all these teams having significant spikes in their offensive rating against the guy you consider a top 2 GOAT?

[3ba11]

Since you wanna go the offensive rating route

2003 Spurs
Regular season: 105.6
vs. Lakers: 110.1

2004 Pistons
Regular season: 102
vs. Lakers: 106.7

2006 Suns
Regular season: 111.5
vs. Lakers: 114.2

2008 Celtics
Regular season: 110.2
vs. Lakers: 113.3

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 109.7
vs. Lakers: 116.7

2012 Thunder
Regular season: 109.8
vs. Lakers: 115

How do you explain all these teams having significant spikes in their ORTG against the guy you consider a top 2 GOAT?


it's specific to each series - if one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series.

[SouBeachTalents]

it's specific to each series - if one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series.
Well they were certainly blowing them out in the clincher. The Lakers lost by an average of over 25 ppg in the clinching games of those series, with Kobe playing like absolute dogshit in virtually all of them.

[ShawkFactory]

Ether...3ball will obfuscate as usual

Nailed it.

Not that he's in any way difficult to predict.

[3ba11]

Well they were certainly blowing them out in the clincher. The Lakers lost by an average of over 25 ppg in the clinching games of those series, with Kobe playing like absolute dogshit in virtually all of them.


This is a symptom of Lebron's because no one lost with good casts more than Lebron, aka favorites, top seeds, Finals teams and teams with all-stars.

it's an attrition battle that is specific to 2 teams in a given series - Lebron's ball-dominance loses this battle to zippy ball movement, so the opponent is always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively

[AirBonner]

Kobe lost with absolute prime Shaq. That’s the worst sin ever

[3ba11]

Kobe lost with absolute prime Shaq. That’s the worst sin ever


Kobe 3-peated and met expectation far more than Lebron, and Kobe didn't have low ball movement teams like Lebron.

Consequently, no one lost with good casts more than Lebron, aka favorites, top seeds, Finals teams and teams with all-stars.

[3ba11]

.
Here's why it matters that the Lakers were out-assisted by the Pacers last night and also Finals losses (thread cliffs):


Opponents don't have to work as hard defensively against low movement or low assist teams and therefore have more capacity to go off offensively.

So the defensive requirements are greater for low assist teams like Lebron's teams, who don't wear down opponents sufficiently to blunt/reduce their attack..

That's why all these opponents "get hot" against Lebron's teams - it's either that or Lebron is the worst defensive leader ever.

[TheCorporation]

Lets see how much some of these teams actually "went off"

2009 Magic
Regular season: 101 ppg, 109.2 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 103.7 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2010 Celtics
Regular season: 99.2 ppg, 107.7 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 100.5 ppg, 108.8 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Heat: 94.7 ppg, 110.7 ORTG

2014 Spurs
Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG

2021 Suns
Regular season: 115.3 ppg, 117.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 104 ppg, 111.9 ORTG

The Suns were significantly worse across the board, the Mavs had a clear drop off in ppg, and the Celtics had an essentially negligible increase. The only increase in number that truly jumps out to you is the Spurs ORTG, but even they averaged a nearly identical ppg that they did in the regular season.

Let's take a look at some of OP's favorite players series

2003 Spurs
Regular season: 95.8 ppg, 105.6 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 99.5 ppg, 110.1 ORTG

2004 Pistons
Regular season: 90.2 ppg, 102 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 90.8 ppg, 106.7 ORTG

2008 Celtics
Regular season: 100.5 ppg, 110.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.2 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.3 ppg, 116.7 ORTG

Looks like his teams fall into the same pattern defensively in several series.

And we're done here

[SouBeachTalents]

This is a symptom of Lebron's because no one lost with good casts more than Lebron, aka favorites, top seeds, Finals teams and teams with all-stars.

it's an attrition battle that is specific to 2 teams in a given series - Lebron's ball-dominance loses this battle to zippy ball movement, so the opponent is always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively
Literally nothing to do with anything I said :lol I guess 3bot was unable to explain why Kobe’s teams got lit up so often in the playoffs.

[3ba11]

And we're done here


Nope, SouBeach conceded in post #14 that it's specific to each series - if one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series (winning the attrition battle).

After conceding the point, he diverted the conversation to Kobe's losses

[3ba11]

The only teams there that "got hot" in a sense that they played better than normal offensively were in 09 Magic and 14 Spurs. And even IF it were true for all seven of those teams (its not), that's still 7/50 playoff series Lebron has been a part of in his career.


No, as SouBeach pointed out - it isn't about a team's "normal" performance - it's about how hot a team gets relative to their opponent in a series.

that's the attrition battle being waged, so a team can drastically underperform their regular season numbers but still be blowing the doors off a particular opponent in a playoff series.

So again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces (especially on the championship level), so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.

[tpols]

When one guy does all the dribbling 3-4 defenders get to rest which leaves them fresh. Meanwhile you have to sprint around the court like a maniac trying to defend everybody on spurs or warriors. Fatigue isn't a myth. Its science bro.

Notice the first games of the 2011, 2014 and 2018 series were all close. The tidal waves opened later in the series when they got tired. I remember even in 2016 there were huge gaps between games. It wasnt every other day. Not only did it break momentum but it allowed them to recharge when they were tired.

[3ba11]

When one guy does all the dribbling 3-4 defenders get to rest which leaves them fresh. Meanwhile you have to sprint around the court like a maniac trying to defend everybody on spurs or warriors. Fatigue isn't a myth. Its science bro.

Notice the first games of the 2011, 2014 and 2018 series were all close. The tidal waves opened later in the series when they got tired. I remember even in 2016 there were huge gaps between games. It wasnt every other day. Not only did it break momentum and but it allowed them to recharge when they were tired.


Indeed, Lebron's teams were getting beat by more and more as the series wore on - that's what happens when a team is applying less pressure than they're facing and gradually getting overtaken more and more (losing the attrition battle)..

in addition to applying the inferior pressure, the more predictable attack of ball-dominance gets figured out more and more as the series wore on.. Lebron lost the last 3 games of nearly every series that he lost

[ShawkFactory]

No, as SouBeach pointed out - it isn't about a team's "normal" performance - it's about how hot a team gets relative to their opponent in a series.

that's the attrition battle being waged, so a team can drastically underperform their regular season numbers but still be blowing the doors off a particular opponent in a playoff series.

So again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces (especially on the championship level), so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.

Then that's not "getting hot". That's just outperforming a team.

[SouBeachTalents]

Indeed, Lebron's teams were getting beat by more and more as the series wore on - that's what happens when a team is applying less pressure than they're facing and gradually getting overtaken more and more (losing the attrition battle)..

in addition to applying the inferior pressure, the more predictable attack of ball-dominance gets figured out more and more as the series wore on.. Lebron lost the last 3 games of nearly every series that he lost
Kobe lost the last 3 games of a series in 2004, 2006 & 2011, two of those with HCA and as the favorite.

And you want to talk about getting beat by more as the series went on, Kobe's teams took historic beatings in elimination games

2003: 28 point loss at home
2004: 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go
2006: Lost by 31
2007: Lost by 9
2008: Lost by 39
2011: Lost by 36
2012: Lost by 16

Average margin of defeat: 25 ppg, no other player comes CLOSE to this :lol

[TheCorporation]

Kobe lost the last 3 games of a series in 2004, 2006 & 2011, two of those with HCA and as the favorite.

And you want to talk about getting beat by more as the series went on, Kobe's teams took historic beatings in elimination games

2003: 28 point loss at home
2004: 13 point loss, trailed by 28 with 4:30 to go
2006: Lost by 31
2007: Lost by 9
2008: Lost by 39
2011: Lost by 36
2012: Lost by 16

Average margin of defeat: 25 ppg, no other player comes CLOSE to this :lol

Ouch :lol Is Kobe still top 12 after this?

[ClipperRevival]

It's also the simple fact that LeBron is an overrated defender. Sure, when he's engaged he's very good but most times, that engagement just isn't there, especially when he's losing. That's when his teammates see the body language and follow suit. Defense is about consistent effort. Some guys just ain't about that D life. Bron just dabled in it from time to time. MJ went hard on D every game and led by example.

[aj1987]

It's also the simple fact that LeBron is an overrated defender. Sure, when he's engaged he's very good but most times, that engagement just isn't there, especially when he's losing. That's when his teammates see the body language and follow suit. Defense is about consistent effort. Some guys just ain't about that D life. Bron just dabled in it from time to time. MJ went hard on D every game and led by example.

You are the definition of a highlight and box score watching casual. Literally whenever LeBron had capable defenders, his teams were among the best defensive teams in the NBA. The exact opposite of what you said actually happens, and you'd know that if you actually watched the games. LeBron gives up on a couple of defensive plays of game, but he still is an above average defender.

The Cavs for example, had Kyrie and Love. You're not going to be an elite defensive team with those two players. Even this current Lakers team was dog shit defenders in Monk, WB, Melo, etc.. One player can't anchor a defense, when the rest are trash. GP is one of the GOAT defenders and yet, he didn't always anchor a top 10 defense.

[Johnny32]

MJ went hard on D every game and led by example.

lmao

[ClipperRevival]

You are the definition of a highlight and box score watching casual. Literally whenever LeBron had capable defenders, his teams were among the best defensive teams in the NBA. The exact opposite of what you said actually happens, and you'd know that if you actually watched the games. LeBron gives up on a couple of defensive plays of game, but he still is an above average defender.

The Cavs for example, had Kyrie and Love. You're not going to be an elite defensive team with those two players. Even this current Lakers team was dog shit defenders in Monk, WB, Melo, etc.. One player can't anchor a defense, when the rest are trash. GP is one of the GOAT defenders and yet, he didn't always anchor a top 10 defense.

Nothing I said is out of line. I already admitted that when engaged, LeBron is a very good defender. But the key word is engaged. He's proven time and time again that his defensive motor is inconsistent. You can try to sugar coat it and make it seem like this isn't the case but it is. Defense is all about desire and effort. It's something you have to want to do, take pride in and try to limit the opposition as much as possible. LeBron just lacked that consistent motor and that's why his teams have been so inconsistent over the years on D. And we all know about the situations where he's quit mentally when the game is out of line with his terrible body language. It filters down to everyone else.

MJ truly did go hard on D every night. He did take pride in D because he knew playing well on D meant a greater chance to win. And that mentality filtered down to everyone else. It's a mindset, not a chase down block or two you see on Spotscenter.

[Johnny32]

MJ truly did go hard on D every night.

lmao you didn't watch mj from 96-98 100% guaranteed.

[Johnny32]

jordone going hard on d @ 49 secs.


https://youtu.be/1qOC4gMlOPU?t=47

[ClipperRevival]

jordone going hard on d @ 49 secs.


https://youtu.be/1qOC4gMlOPU?t=47

Bron fam desperate. Pointing to one play where MJ is far away from the ball and is able to watch his man and the ball simultaneously?

https://c.tenor.com/hv-EU3j5u5QAAAAC/girl-you-crazy.gif

[Johnny32]

Bron fam desperate. Pointing to one play where MJ is far away from the ball and is able to watch his man and the ball simultaneously?

https://c.tenor.com/hv-EU3j5u5QAAAAC/girl-you-crazy.gif

two plays actually. couldn't bear to watch, eh nerd? was he, hurrr going hard, durrr?

[ClipperRevival]

two plays actually. couldn't bear to watch, eh nerd? was he, hurrr going hard, durrr?

Hi wheels.

[Johnny32]

no clue what this weirdo is typing about now. i guess it's anything but mj standing and not moving on defense in b2b possessions as his man buries a wide open 3.

[3ba11]

no clue what this weirdo is typing about now. i guess it's anything but mj standing and not moving on defense in b2b possessions as his man buries a wide open 3.


Lebron hasn't been all-defense in his 30's (nearly 10 years), while MJ was top 5 DPOY from 88-98'.. So imagine if perennial top 5 DPOY Giannis was also scoring champ every year and averaged 4-5 more than all the best scorers in playoff history.

[Johnny32]

anyone who was actually watching games back then knows mj only pretended to play defense during nationally televised games. it was a running joke amongst the opposing teams broadcasters during games.

[ShawkFactory]

Nothing I said is out of line. I already admitted that when engaged, LeBron is a very good defender. But the key word is engaged. He's proven time and time again that his defensive motor is inconsistent. You can try to sugar coat it and make it seem like this isn't the case but it is. Defense is all about desire and effort. It's something you have to want to do, take pride in and try to limit the opposition as much as possible. LeBron just lacked that consistent motor and that's why his teams have been so inconsistent over the years on D. And we all know about the situations where he's quit mentally when the game is out of line with his terrible body language. It filters down to everyone else.

MJ truly did go hard on D every night. He did take pride in D because he knew playing well on D meant a greater chance to win. And that mentality filtered down to everyone else. It's a mindset, not a chase down block or two you see on Spotscenter.

Everything you said is 100 honestly.

Dude goes from locking down MVP Rose and Tony Parker to being nothing on that end.

[3ba11]

Everything you said is 100 honestly.

Dude goes from locking down MVP Rose and Tony Parker to being nothing on that end.


So you went with option 1 that Lebron is the WOAT defensive leader

Indeed, all these teams got hot against him - that's always the excuse every time he lost - his super-teams, top seeds and veteran champion teams were blown away by record amount many times.

[ShawkFactory]

So you went with option 1 that Lebron is the WOAT defensive leader

Indeed, all these teams got hot against him - that's always the excuse every time he lost - his super-teams, top seeds and veteran champion teams were blown away by record amount many times.

Well that's clearly not true and I don't care about your "options" because you're a psychopath, a liar, and a loser.

But digressing from that..yes there have been times where he hasn't been dominant on the defensive end. There's also been times where he has. So WOAT? Nah.

You're in your 40s. Stop being this weird.

[3ba11]

Well that's clearly not true and I don't care about your "options" because you're a psychopath, a liar, and a loser.

But digressing from that..yes there have been times where he hasn't been dominant on the defensive end. There's also been times where he has. So WOAT? Nah.

You're in your 40s. Stop being this weird.


If bad team defense is the excuse for losing the series in 09', 11', 14', this year and basically anytime he loses, then Lebron is a horrific defensive leader...

or his frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't win the attrition battle (lets the defense rest)...

or some combination of the 2.

Btw, Lebron hasn't been all-defense in his 30's, so he's a vastly overrated defender historically - good defense is more valuable than bad defense with defensive versatility.

And quit with the insults just because you don't like basketball 101 facts.. there's way more to insult you about I'm sure.. you obviously don't know shit about basketball and sound immature and low class

[ShawkFactory]

If bad team defense is the excuse for losing the series in 09', 11', 14', this year and basically anytime he loses, then Lebron is a horrific defensive leader...

or his frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't win the attrition battle (lets the defense rest)...

or some combination of the 2.

Btw, Lebron hasn't been all-defense in his 30's, so he's a vastly overrated defender historically - good defense is more valuable than bad defense with defensive versatility.

And quit with the insults just because you don't like basketball 101 facts.. there's way more to insult you about I'm sure.. you obviously don't know shit about basketball and sound immature and low class

What’s happened is that you’re trying to once again say that Brons style of ball isn’t “optimal”. We get it..that’s where you stand.

The issue for you is that you’ve made 300-400 threads (I wish that were an exaggeration but it literally isn’t) about that same topic, and now in order for everything you say not to be deleted or laughed at you have to think of new ways to say it.

But the ways you choose to say it are really stupid.

[3ba11]

.

But the ways you choose to say it are really stupid.





They're only "stupid" because you can't refute them.. like a kid that's flustered and says.. "just... just . just BECAUSE!!"

And that's by design because they aren't my opinion - it's the historical record and irrefutable

[1987_Lakers]

Lets see how much some of these teams actually "went off"

2009 Magic
Regular season: 101 ppg, 109.2 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 103.7 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2010 Celtics
Regular season: 99.2 ppg, 107.7 ORTG
vs. Cavs: 100.5 ppg, 108.8 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Heat: 94.7 ppg, 110.7 ORTG

2014 Spurs
Regular season: 105.4 ppg, 110.5 ORTG
vs. Heat: 105.6 ppg, 120.8 ORTG

2021 Suns
Regular season: 115.3 ppg, 117.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 104 ppg, 111.9 ORTG

The Suns were significantly worse across the board, the Mavs had a clear drop off in ppg, and the Celtics had an essentially negligible increase. The only increase in number that truly jumps out to you is the Spurs ORTG, but even they averaged a nearly identical ppg that they did in the regular season.

Let's take a look at some of OP's favorite players series

2003 Spurs
Regular season: 95.8 ppg, 105.6 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 99.5 ppg, 110.1 ORTG

2004 Pistons
Regular season: 90.2 ppg, 102 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 90.8 ppg, 106.7 ORTG

2008 Celtics
Regular season: 100.5 ppg, 110.2 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.2 ppg, 113.3 ORTG

2011 Mavs
Regular season: 100.2 ppg, 109.7 ORTG
vs. Lakers: 102.3 ppg, 116.7 ORTG

Looks like his teams fall into the same pattern defensively in several series.

Absolutely murdered.

[3ba11]

Absolutely murdered.


Nope, SouBeach conceded in post #14 that it's specific to each series - when one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series (winning the attrition battle).

After conceding the point, SouBeach diverted the conversation to Kobe's losses




Absolutely murdered.


No, as SouBeach pointed out - it isn't about a team's "normal" performance - it's about how hot a team gets relative to their opponent in a series.

that's the attrition battle being waged, so a team can drastically underperform their regular season numbers but still be blowing the doors off a particular opponent in a playoff series.

So again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces (especially on the championship level), so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nope, SouBeach conceded in post #14 that it's specific to each series - when one team is blowing out another team in a game or series, they might be below their regular season averages but still blowing out the opponent in that particular game or series (winning the attrition battle).

After conceding the point, SouBeach diverted the conversation to Kobe's losses






No, as SouBeach pointed out - it isn't about a team's "normal" performance - it's about how hot a team gets relative to their opponent in a series.

that's the attrition battle being waged, so a team can drastically underperform their regular season numbers but still be blowing the doors off a particular opponent in a playoff series.

So again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance doesn't shift defenses/wear down teams like the ball movement he faces (especially on the championship level), so opponents are always fresher with more capacity to go off offensively.
Are you seriously retarded :lol This is the post you're referencing


Well they were certainly blowing them out in the clincher. The Lakers lost by an average of over 25 ppg in the clinching games of those series, with Kobe playing like absolute dogshit in virtually all of them.

Nowhere did I say any of the bullshit you conjured out of thin air in the post above. I know you lie pathologically, but you can't just straight up lie about something that was said in the very same thread and expect not to be fact checked on it. That was just laziness on your end.

I also see you had absolutely NO explanation for why Kobe's teams performed so poorly defensively in the playoffs. I guess you couldn't come up with a way to spin that without completely contradicting the entire premise of this thread :lol Let's see if you ever do, my guess would be no.

[3ba11]

Are you seriously retarded :lol This is the post you're referencing



Nowhere did I say any of the bullshit you conjured out of thin air in the post above. I know you lie pathologically, but you can't straight up lie about something that was said in this very same thread and expect not to be fact checked on it. Just lazy on your end.

I also see you had absolutely NO response to why Kobe's teams performed poorly so frequently defensively in the playoffs. I guess you couldn't come up with a way to spin that without completely contradicting your entire thread :lol Let's see if you ever do, my guess would you won't.


Lebron's losing with good teams and getting blown away by "hot" opponent's is singular to him - no one comes close to Lebron in that regard due to Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance (letting the defense rest), which is also singular to him.

So cherry-picking a smaller number of losses for Kobe and losses that weren't the record-caliber blowouts that Lebron experienced many more times is not a counterargument to the thread title

And you did infact concede that your point about comparing a playoff series to regular season averages is dumb - each series has little to do with the regular season and blowouts happen regardless of whether they exceed the regular season pace or not.. You made a dumb point - own up to it and I'll quit ragdolling you on it

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron's losing with good teams and getting blown away by "hot" opponent's is singular to him - no one comes close to Lebron in that regard due to Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance (letting the defense rest), which is also singular to him.

So cherry-picking a smaller number of losses for Kobe and losses that weren't the record-caliber blowouts that Lebron experienced many times is not a counterargument to the thread title

And you did concede that your point about comparing a playoff series to regular season averages is dumb because each series has little to do with the regular season and blowouts happen regardless of whether they exceed the regular season pace or not.. You made a dumb point - own up to it
If the '09/'10 Cavs & Lakers without AD constitute "good teams", then the '03/'04/'08/'11/'12 Lakers absolutely qualify as well. So he has plenty of losses with "good teams" where their defense gets lit up.

[3ba11]

If the '09/'10 Cavs & Lakers without AD constitute "good teams", then the '03/'04/'08/'11/'12 Lakers absolutely qualify as well. So he has plenty of losses with "good teams" where their defense gets lit up.


It's standard for defenses to get lit up by better teams, but only Lebron's teams routinely underachieved the expectation in 09', 10', 11', 14', 19', 21', 22', and nearly 13' - this perennial underachievement is explained by Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance from a frontcourt position, which lets opponents win the attrition battle (often characterized by record blowout).

So carry on deflecting and trying to bring down Kobe - but Kobe didn't miss the expectation like Lebron always did - only Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance does this (underachieves the expectation by losing the attrition battle)...

But it's become standard for Lebron to underachieve the expectation and his fans to make excuses.. When Lebron turned the preseason favorite into Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (2011-2016), his fans weaponized this losing and having weaker teams than expected by fabricating a "Finals comp" excuse (simply whining that the other team was too good, smh)..

[1987_Lakers]

but Kobe didn't miss the expectation like Lebron always did

Lakers, along with the Spurs were pre-season favorites to win the chip in 2005 and Kobe missed the playoffs.

[3ba11]

Lakers, along with the Spurs were pre-season favorites to win the chip in 2005 and Kobe missed the playoffs.


Lebron turned the preseason favorite into Finals loser or underdog for 6 straight years (11-16'), except the Ray Allen miracle.

You guys weaponize this losing and having weaker teams than expected by fabricating a "Finals comp" argument - so if your team fails to meet expectation, you just whine about the opponents being too good.. :confusedshrug

[ShawkFactory]

They're only "stupid" because you can't refute them.. like a kid that's flustered and says.. "just... just . just BECAUSE!!"

And that's by design because they aren't my opinion - it's the historical record and irrefutable

Everything you say is refuted immediately. Or has been refuted in the past.

[3ba11]

Everything you say is refuted immediately. Or has been refuted in the past.


you point out that Pippen averaged 15.7 in the 98' Finals and not the 15 that I said - that isn't "refuting" anything - it's deflecting and derailing (avoiding addressing the point being made)..

That's all you guys ever do - divert and derail because of your skip bayless knowledge, so don't confuse that with actually refuting the points that I make - you've NEVER done that

But carry on your delusions.. they're amusing

[ShawkFactory]

you point out that Pippen averaged 15.7 in the 98' Finals and not the 15 that I said - that isn't "refuting" anything - it's deflecting and derailing (avoiding addressing the point being made)..

That's all you guys ever do - divert and derail because of your skip bayless knowledge, so don't confuse that with actually refuting the points that I make - you've NEVER done that

But carry on your delusions.. they're amusing

I'm glad you said that. I'll repeat my first post: You've made literally hundreds of threads about your point. And because of that you're forced to find news ways to say it, or you'll be ignored and/or have your threads deleted.

And these new ways are often a huge stretch or stupid. Or both.

[3ba11]

I'm glad you said that. I'll repeat my first post: You've made literally hundreds of threads about your point. And because of that you're forced to find news ways to say it, or you'll be ignored and/or have your threads deleted.

And these new ways are often a huge stretch or stupid. Or both.


^^^ another clever way of avoiding the point being made

You're the goat at practicing avoidance..

[ShawkFactory]

^^^ another clever way of avoiding the point being made

You're the goat at practicing avoidance..

You try to make arguments for "X" by using "y" reasoning. Simply pointing out that "Y" is ridiculous is not a deflection from "X".

It's simply pointing out that your argument is contextless and stupid.

[aj1987]

Nothing I said is out of line. I already admitted that when engaged, LeBron is a very good defender. But the key word is engaged. He's proven time and time again that his defensive motor is inconsistent. You can try to sugar coat it and make it seem like this isn't the case but it is. Defense is all about desire and effort. It's something you have to want to do, take pride in and try to limit the opposition as much as possible. LeBron just lacked that consistent motor and that's why his teams have been so inconsistent over the years on D. And we all know about the situations where he's quit mentally when the game is out of line with his terrible body language. It filters down to everyone else.
It's nonsensical drivel. You're just reiterating what the LeBron hating trolls (you being one of them) regurgitate and spam on these boards, without actually watching the games. Try watching a game or two and actually try to understand the sport before you post. Also, read this para and after you're done, read it again:

The Cavs for example, had Kyrie and Love. You're not going to be an elite defensive team with those two players. Even this current Lakers team was dog shit defenders in Monk, WB, Melo, etc.. One player can't anchor a defense, when the rest are trash. GP is one of the GOAT defenders and yet, he didn't always anchor a top 10 defense, even when he was making All-Def teams.


MJ truly did go hard on D every night. He did take pride in D because he knew playing well on D meant a greater chance to win. And that mentality filtered down to everyone else. It's a mindset, not a chase down block or two you see on Spotscenter.

Again, MJ had Pippen, Rodman, and Harper. Some of the greatest defenders to ever play the game. Not really that hard to have a great defense with a plethora of great defenders.

[3ba11]

It's simply pointing out that your argument is contextless and stupid.





Context-less?

What context would you like included?

Lebron lost by record amount in 14', and then nearly broke his record in 17' and 18', while also having horrible losses as the favorite in 09' and 11' - all of these scenarios involved the opponent "getting hot" after out-assisting Lebron's team

So either Lebron is the worst defensive leader ever (his teams are always wetting the bed on defense), or teams simply get to rest against Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance, thereby having more capacity to go off offensively.. There's empirical evidence of the latter outside of just Lebron - Magic's ball-dominance got it's doors blown off by KJ and MJ in 90' and 91' without Kareem

[ShawkFactory]

Context-less?

What context would you like included?

Lebron lost by record amount in 14', and then nearly broke his record in 17' and 18', while also having horrible losses as the favorite in 09' and 11' - all of these scenarios involved the opponent "getting hot" after out-assisting Lebron's team

So either Lebron is the worst defensive leader ever (his teams are always wetting the bed on defense), or teams simply get to rest against Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance, thereby having more capacity to go off offensively.. There's empirical evidence of the latter outside of just Lebron - Magic's ball-dominance got it's doors blown off by KJ and MJ in 90' and 91' without Kareem

I already stated that the 2014 Spurs and 09 Magic got hot.

[3ba11]

I already stated that the 2014 Spurs and 09 Magic got hot.


And the 11' Mavs, who shot 41% on threes (far higher than they normally shoot)

And the 17' Warriors, who nearly won by record amount and would've won by record amount if Kyrie didn't drop a 40-piece to single-handedly win a game.. And the 18' Warriors won by record amount.

Ultimately, Lebron has the worst record ever for blowout losses or underachieving the expectation - "b-b-but his teams just don't play defense!!".. smh.. if only that was the sole issue

[Axe]

And the 11' Mavs, who shot 41% on threes (far higher than they normally shoot)

And the 17' Warriors, who nearly won by record amount and would've won by record amount if Kyrie didn't drop a 40-piece to single-handedly win a game.. And the 18' Warriors won by record amount.

Ultimately, Lebron has the worst record ever for blowout losses or underachieving the expectation - "b-b-but his teams just don't play defense!!".. smh.. if only that was the sole issue
Kobe and his team lost by 39 points in the closing game of the 2008 finals.

[SouBeachTalents]

And the 11' Mavs, who shot 41% on threes (far higher than they normally shoot)

And the 17' Warriors, who nearly won by record amount and would've won by record amount if Kyrie didn't drop a 40-piece to single-handedly win a game.. And the 18' Warriors won by record amount.

Ultimately, Lebron has the worst record ever for blowout losses or underachieving the expectation - "b-b-but his teams just don't play defense!!".. smh.. if only that was the sole issue
Now that's just shameless trolling

[3ba11]

Kobe and his team lost by 39 points in the closing game of the 2008 finals.


Kobe didn't lose a bunch as the favorite or get blown out so often... Lebron lost as the favorite for 3 straight years and has multiple record blowouts

The narrative with Kobe's teams weren't "they don't play defense" but that's always the narrative with Lebron's teams..

And it's because Lebron's teams have greater defensive requirements because their ball-dominant offense doesn't wear down the opponent as much, so they face fresher offenses

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe didn't lose a bunch as the favorite or get blown out so often... Lebron lost as the favorite for 3 straight years and has multiple record blowouts

The narrative with Kobe's teams weren't "they don't play defense" but that's always the narrative with Lebron's teams..

And it's because Lebron's teams have greater defensive requirements because their ball-dominant offense doesn't wear down the opponent as much, so they face fresher offenses
But it was proven earlier in the thread that Kobe's teams didn't play defense just as often as LeBron's

[ShawkFactory]

And the 11' Mavs, who shot 41% on threes (far higher than they normally shoot)

And the 17' Warriors, who nearly won by record amount and would've won by record amount if Kyrie didn't drop a 40-piece to single-handedly win a game.. And the 18' Warriors won by record amount.

Ultimately, Lebron has the worst record ever for blowout losses or underachieving the expectation - "b-b-but his teams just don't play defense!!".. smh.. if only that was the sole issue

The Mavericks played 4 playoff series in 2011. Can you guess which one they had BY FAR the lowest offensive rating in?

[SouBeachTalents]

The Mavericks played 4 playoff series in 2011. Can you guess which one they had BY FAR the lowest offensive rating in?
I'd also like to guess which series they had their highest offensive rating AND 3 point shooting in

[3ba11]

But it was proven earlier in the thread that Kobe's teams didn't play defense just as often as LeBron's


For the most part, prime Kobe's teams were beaten by better teams - he didn't lose as the favorite many years in a row (09-11') or lose by record amount many times (14', 17', 18') like Lebron did.

Lebron lost as the favorite by teams that got hot (09', 11', 14'), or lost by far more than expected (17' and 18') for the same reason (the teams got hot).

But we know that teams don't randomly get hot for 3 and 4 straight games, so that means Lebron is either the worst defensive leader ever, or his ball-dominance doesn't wear down teams enough so they're always fresher on offense physically and mentally

[SouBeachTalents]

For the most part, prime Kobe's teams were beaten by better teams - he didn't lose as the favorite many years in a row (09-11') or lose by record amount many times (14', 17', 18') like Lebron did.

Lebron lost as the favorite by teams that got hot (09', 11', 14'), or lost by far more than expected (17' and 18') for the same reason (the teams got hot).

But we know that teams don't randomly get hot for 3 and 4 straight games, so that means Lebron is either the worst defensive leader ever, or his ball-dominance doesn't wear down teams enough so they're always fresher on offense physically and mentally
Kobe lost as the favorite several times ('03, '04, '08, '11) and lost by far more than expected in 2004 & 2011. And unlike LeBron in most of the series you mentioned, Kobe usually played poorly in addition to his opponent exceeding their regular season ppg & ORTG.

[3ba11]

Kobe lost as the favorite several times ('03, '04, '08, '11) and lost by far more than expected in 2004 & 2011. And unlike LeBron in most of the series you mentioned, Kobe usually played poorly in addition to his opponent exceeding their regular season ppg & ORTG.


Ball-dominance lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense - that's why teams "get hot" and blow out Lebron's low ball movement and low assist teams..

Kobe's teams don't have the ball movement problem because his jumpshooting allows ball movement, so his teams sufficiently wear out opponents and don't get blown away by record amount like Lebron did 3 times (losing the attrition battle)...

In addition to wearing out teams and not getting blown away by record amount, Kobe's greater ability to win the attrition battle prevents as much losing/failing to meet expectation as much as Lebron's teams (Lebron's turned preseason favorites into Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years).

[3ba11]

.
Lebron - teams and individuals routinely go off on him because they're fresher from resting vs his ball-dominant approach/strategy

Jordan - teams and individuals score less and shoot poorly against him because they're worn out from defending his offensive onslaught (ball movement strategy allowed by his jumpshooting ability... constant double-team decisions that decimate your defensive rebounding (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Xz4K42gXM&t=192s))