hiphopanonymous
01-19-2022, 05:40 PM
I've been doing research on these three as I'm putting together a new video of the highest quality tape of them all when all 3 were on the floor together. The team fascinates me because they have all the complexity of greatness mixed with pitfalls from mixing such top tier aging talent on one team. Here's a thread with just some thoughts and info I've had on them for anyone curious. Backstory of course is nobody could beat Boston in the 1960's except Wilt Chamberlain's 1967 76ers. Lakers got a new owner, Jack Kent Cook that built them a new arena, changed their uniforms, and wanted to put them on the map with a championship. Only problem was they couldn't get past Boston and Kent wanted to pull some strings to acquire Wilt Chamberlain so he could matchup against Boston's X-factor Bill Russell. He got Wilt, but due their advancing years as players they did NOT play together as a "big 3" more often than they DID. There were also chemistry issues. So forget about all their stats and what not that you can see on basketball reference which doesn't account for all the games one or two of them were out, if you want to know their actual chemistry together the few times when all were healthy and wonder how they played as a trio this is what I've gathered below:
As a trio in the regular season:
* Only played 72 total regular season games together, record was 50 wins, 22 losses. Pretty good but not as good as some might have expected which I can outline below.
* Wilt has stated in interviews regardless of the big 3 (and ignoring the fact that they missed so many games together from age/injury), he felt those teams had little to no depth. Top heavy in his opinion and this is probably true due to the league expansions that began in the late 1960's and continued through the early 1970's.
* Wilt and Baylor didn't gel perfectly together, both needed the paint and both sacrificed touches to blend their games as best as possible and both were alpha personality but with different views and basketball team needs so clashed for those reasons at times as well - though both kept it civil with each other unlike Wilt with one of the Lakers coaches (Butch VB).
* Butch VB the Lakers first coach wanted constant cutting action and ball movement, and favored Elgin who could handle all of this over Wilt who basically played a stationary style of ball that got in his motion offenses way. Wilt needed triangle style offense where he's constantly positioned as a strong inside hub that gets constant touches and finds outside shooters and slashers with the option to dominate 1 on 1 (ala the champion 76ers). Wilt knew the Lakers GM Jack Kent Cook brought him there for a reason, bc the Lakers couldn't beat Boston without him so he felt he should be listened to and have his needs on style of play to be met not Baylor's. Butch felt Elgin was the OG of the team and again Elgin played the "right" way with motion offense so he dug in and kept the keys in Elgin's hands not Wilt's. Wilt flat out told the media Butch was the "Dumbest coach he'd ever played for". Butch called Wilt "a load." because he felt Wilt was more a problem then a help. Team chemistry off the court and perhaps on the court was extremely tesnse at times in 1969 as a result and is cited to have been divided in half (Wilt's camp and Elgin's camp).
* Later Lakers coaches such as Joe Mullaney were not as bad compromising and so the tensions quieted down in the remaining seasons. Wilt and Elgin though disagreeing and compromising on styles of play do appear to have had at least a professional level of respect for one another unlike with Wilt and the first coach.
* West was unaffected by all of the chemistry issues due to being more outside jump shot oriented (which was fine with both triangle or motion offense) and a personality that got along with both Baylor and Wilt
* West was in his prime and perhaps part of his peak the entire time all 3 players were on the court together.
* Wilt was past his prime for basically half the games they played together (he was in his prime still only in 1969, past it during and after 1970 after his severe leg injury)
* Baylor was past his prime for basically all the games they played together due to multiple knee surgeries and age (34+) but still looks to have surprisingly great moves on film
* Wilt averaged 21.1ppg, 20.6rpg, 4.4apg, 58FG%, 44.6mpg in these games
* West averaged 25.8ppg, 6.7apg, 4.4 rpg, 50FG% 38.7mpg in these games
* Baylor averaged 22.3ppg, 9.6rpg, 5.0apg, 47FG% 38mpg in these games
As a trio in the Playoffs:
* Only two Playoff runs were made with all three players playing together, 1969 and 1970 for 36 total games.
* Baylor and Wilt's scoring and offensive production both dropped off probably due to age and roles and perhaps some of the chemistry issues (Wilt's post ups didn't offer as much ball movement so he probably got less possessions dictated be given to him in particular under coach Butch VB)
* West, the only one really close to (or at) their peak still picked it up and took more shots and hit more shots for markedly greater scoring production vs regular season
* Wilt averaged 18ppg, 23.4rpg, 54FG% 46.8mpg in these games
* West averaged 31.1ppg, 7.7apg, 3.8rpg, 46FG% 44.1mpg in these games
* Baylor averaged 17ppg, 9.4rpg, 4.4ap, 41FG% 36.3mpg in these games - maybe end of the season affecting him more due to age for these games since minutes are also lower than West/Wilt
As a trio in the Finals:
* Only two Finals runs were made with all three players playing together, 1969 and 1970 both were 7 game series that were lost for 14 total games
* Controversially in 1969 no doubt due to all the power struggles behind the scenes Wilt was told he was not allowed back in the final minutes of game 7 by coach Butch VB after sitting for a few minutes to quiet down a strained knee - despite asking to return to the game. This may or may not have cost them the series and the coach was fired after this series and decision.
* Wilt and the Lakers get criticized to an extent for Game 7 of the 1970 NBA Finals for not capitalizing on Willis Reeds severe injury and their lack of a competent backup center. In game 6 Wilt greatly capitalized on this and went off for 45 points and 27 rebounds.
* Just the same Wilt does not often get enough credit for even playing a single playoff game that season let alone through the Finals. With 1970 medical knowledge he rehabbed an injury himself that would often end other players careers or take at least an entire year to heal. He came back literally within the same season due to rehabbing by as he stated, watching what they did with race horses (walking them through cool waters for chilled resistance training) Just an interesting fact about Wilt being smart about taking care of himself and maintaining his athleticism so he was available instead of unavailable for important games.
* Wilt averaged 17.5ppg, 24.6rpg, 3.5apg, 55FG%, 47.4mpg in these Finals
* West averaged 34.6ppg, 7.6apg, 4.1rpg, 47FG%, 45.9mpg in these Finals
* Baylor averaged 17.9ppg, 10.8rpg, 4.3apg, 44FG%, 38.3mpg in these Finals - markedly less minutes than the other two again probably due to age/injury
Apologies the bullet points are a bit scattered. Just gathering my thoughts as I create a video about these guys. I'll share it here when completed - really amazing to watch all 3 on the floor together, you get this impression they could light up other teams relentlessly when dialed in. But you can see they have to figure it out and can look cumbersome and make mistakes at times as well.
As a trio in the regular season:
* Only played 72 total regular season games together, record was 50 wins, 22 losses. Pretty good but not as good as some might have expected which I can outline below.
* Wilt has stated in interviews regardless of the big 3 (and ignoring the fact that they missed so many games together from age/injury), he felt those teams had little to no depth. Top heavy in his opinion and this is probably true due to the league expansions that began in the late 1960's and continued through the early 1970's.
* Wilt and Baylor didn't gel perfectly together, both needed the paint and both sacrificed touches to blend their games as best as possible and both were alpha personality but with different views and basketball team needs so clashed for those reasons at times as well - though both kept it civil with each other unlike Wilt with one of the Lakers coaches (Butch VB).
* Butch VB the Lakers first coach wanted constant cutting action and ball movement, and favored Elgin who could handle all of this over Wilt who basically played a stationary style of ball that got in his motion offenses way. Wilt needed triangle style offense where he's constantly positioned as a strong inside hub that gets constant touches and finds outside shooters and slashers with the option to dominate 1 on 1 (ala the champion 76ers). Wilt knew the Lakers GM Jack Kent Cook brought him there for a reason, bc the Lakers couldn't beat Boston without him so he felt he should be listened to and have his needs on style of play to be met not Baylor's. Butch felt Elgin was the OG of the team and again Elgin played the "right" way with motion offense so he dug in and kept the keys in Elgin's hands not Wilt's. Wilt flat out told the media Butch was the "Dumbest coach he'd ever played for". Butch called Wilt "a load." because he felt Wilt was more a problem then a help. Team chemistry off the court and perhaps on the court was extremely tesnse at times in 1969 as a result and is cited to have been divided in half (Wilt's camp and Elgin's camp).
* Later Lakers coaches such as Joe Mullaney were not as bad compromising and so the tensions quieted down in the remaining seasons. Wilt and Elgin though disagreeing and compromising on styles of play do appear to have had at least a professional level of respect for one another unlike with Wilt and the first coach.
* West was unaffected by all of the chemistry issues due to being more outside jump shot oriented (which was fine with both triangle or motion offense) and a personality that got along with both Baylor and Wilt
* West was in his prime and perhaps part of his peak the entire time all 3 players were on the court together.
* Wilt was past his prime for basically half the games they played together (he was in his prime still only in 1969, past it during and after 1970 after his severe leg injury)
* Baylor was past his prime for basically all the games they played together due to multiple knee surgeries and age (34+) but still looks to have surprisingly great moves on film
* Wilt averaged 21.1ppg, 20.6rpg, 4.4apg, 58FG%, 44.6mpg in these games
* West averaged 25.8ppg, 6.7apg, 4.4 rpg, 50FG% 38.7mpg in these games
* Baylor averaged 22.3ppg, 9.6rpg, 5.0apg, 47FG% 38mpg in these games
As a trio in the Playoffs:
* Only two Playoff runs were made with all three players playing together, 1969 and 1970 for 36 total games.
* Baylor and Wilt's scoring and offensive production both dropped off probably due to age and roles and perhaps some of the chemistry issues (Wilt's post ups didn't offer as much ball movement so he probably got less possessions dictated be given to him in particular under coach Butch VB)
* West, the only one really close to (or at) their peak still picked it up and took more shots and hit more shots for markedly greater scoring production vs regular season
* Wilt averaged 18ppg, 23.4rpg, 54FG% 46.8mpg in these games
* West averaged 31.1ppg, 7.7apg, 3.8rpg, 46FG% 44.1mpg in these games
* Baylor averaged 17ppg, 9.4rpg, 4.4ap, 41FG% 36.3mpg in these games - maybe end of the season affecting him more due to age for these games since minutes are also lower than West/Wilt
As a trio in the Finals:
* Only two Finals runs were made with all three players playing together, 1969 and 1970 both were 7 game series that were lost for 14 total games
* Controversially in 1969 no doubt due to all the power struggles behind the scenes Wilt was told he was not allowed back in the final minutes of game 7 by coach Butch VB after sitting for a few minutes to quiet down a strained knee - despite asking to return to the game. This may or may not have cost them the series and the coach was fired after this series and decision.
* Wilt and the Lakers get criticized to an extent for Game 7 of the 1970 NBA Finals for not capitalizing on Willis Reeds severe injury and their lack of a competent backup center. In game 6 Wilt greatly capitalized on this and went off for 45 points and 27 rebounds.
* Just the same Wilt does not often get enough credit for even playing a single playoff game that season let alone through the Finals. With 1970 medical knowledge he rehabbed an injury himself that would often end other players careers or take at least an entire year to heal. He came back literally within the same season due to rehabbing by as he stated, watching what they did with race horses (walking them through cool waters for chilled resistance training) Just an interesting fact about Wilt being smart about taking care of himself and maintaining his athleticism so he was available instead of unavailable for important games.
* Wilt averaged 17.5ppg, 24.6rpg, 3.5apg, 55FG%, 47.4mpg in these Finals
* West averaged 34.6ppg, 7.6apg, 4.1rpg, 47FG%, 45.9mpg in these Finals
* Baylor averaged 17.9ppg, 10.8rpg, 4.3apg, 44FG%, 38.3mpg in these Finals - markedly less minutes than the other two again probably due to age/injury
Apologies the bullet points are a bit scattered. Just gathering my thoughts as I create a video about these guys. I'll share it here when completed - really amazing to watch all 3 on the floor together, you get this impression they could light up other teams relentlessly when dialed in. But you can see they have to figure it out and can look cumbersome and make mistakes at times as well.