Lebron was 28-27 (lottery) with Ingram/Kuzma/Ball/Caruso/KCP/Rondo

[3ba11]

Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams gave him the best 2nd option in the conference in 2018 and a veteran 2-star team of champions against a bunch of 0-star rookie teams in the East.. And his 07' run was standard for 1-star teams in that conference (Dwight, Iverson, Kidd).

Otherwise, Lebron failed to win the East with homecourt in 09' and 10', so he formed super-teams where he underachieved the preseason expectation every year (turned preseason favorites into Finals underdog or loser from 11-16').. Then he went out West to be lottery-caliber and get destroyed by the West just like his Finals losses.

TLDR: Lebron was lottery with his 2019 squad because the historical record shows that he almost always underachieved the expectation and never carried teams (he always had good teams relative to comp)

[3ba11]

Btw, when Lebron got hurt in December of that season, the Lakers' record of 26-21 was still lottery pace - that's a 48-win pace and tie for 8 seed, except the Lakers lose tie-breaker to Clippers.

[zeerghit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sisNsSNhkx0&feature=emb_title

[ShawkFactory]

Because he (27 games), Rondo (36 games), Ingram (30 games), Ball (35 games), Caruso (57 games) all missed major chunks of the season.

Hell, Kuzma missed 12 himself.

I'm going to assume that you don't care about that though and will continue to ignore it. Carry on.

[Hey Yo]

1 through 8 missed 140+ games


Thread fail.

[SouBeachTalents]

(he always had good teams relative to comp)
So did Jordan. So did virtually every top 10 player :lol

[3ba11]

Because he (27 games), Rondo (36 games), Ingram (30 games), Ball (35 games), Caruso (57 games) all missed major chunks of the season.

Hell, Kuzma missed 12 himself.

I'm going to assume that you don't care about that though and will continue to ignore it. Carry on.


It isn't just this year - these questions about failing the expectation occurs every year for Lebron:



* Why is he lottery this year and 1st Round last year - so why is he lottery-caliber in the West?

* Why lottery in 2005 with the East all-star center

* Why underachieve the preseason expectation with all his super-teams from 11-16'?

[Mr. Woke]

Ultimately, Lebron's super-teams gave him the best 2nd option in the conference in 2018 and a veteran 2-star team of champions against a bunch of 0-star rookie teams in the East.. And his 07' run was standard for 1-star teams in that conference (Dwight, Iverson, Kidd).

Otherwise, Lebron failed to win the East with homecourt in 09' and 10', so he formed super-teams where he underachieved the preseason expectation every year (turned preseason favorites into Finals underdog or loser from 11-16').. Then he went out West to be lottery-caliber and get destroyed by the West just like his Finals losses.

TLDR: Lebron was lottery with his 2019 squad because the historical record shows that he almost always underachieved the expectation and never carried teams (he always had good teams relative to comp)

None of those players were good back then lol.

[ShawkFactory]

It isn't just this year - these questions about failing the expectation occurs every year for Lebron:



* Why is he lottery this year and 1st Round last year - so why is he lottery-caliber in the West?

* Why lottery in 2005 with the East all-star center

* Why underachieve the preseason expectation with all his super-teams from 11-16'?

Your thread was about 2019. They were lottery because of the massive amount of injuries the team sustained, including to Lebron himself.

Someone should look up what the Lakers record was when even 4 of the guys mentioned in the OP were on the court together. I don't care enough to do it, but I have a feeling it's pretty good.

[3ba11]

So did Jordan. So did virtually every top 10 player :lol


Jordan's teammates couldn't get more than 22 ppg or get within 10 ppg of him in a series

Lebron has teammates average 25-30 many times and lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs

No comparison

Jordan had less talent or all-stars than the 91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Blazers, 93' Suns and 96' Sonics

[3ba11]

Your thread was about 2019. They were lottery because of the massive amount of injuries the team sustained, including to Lebron himself.

Someone should look up what the Lakers record was when even 4 of the guys mentioned in the OP were on the court together. I don't care enough to do it, but I have a feeling it's pretty good.


The OP addresses everything, while 35-year Jordan was the 1 seed and 24-11 without Pippen in 1998

Carried those bums kicking and screaming to the 98' title

Goat-level players don't make excuses

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan's teammates couldn't get more than 22 ppg or get within 10 ppg of him in a series

Lebron has teammates average 25-30 many times and lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs

No comparison

Jordan had less talent or all-stars than the 91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Blazers, 93' Suns and 96' Sonics
Jordan's team won 55 games without him, more wins than the Pistons and only a couple less than the Lakers & Blazers.

[ShawkFactory]

The OP addresses everything, while 35-year Jordan was the 1 seed and 24-11 without Pippen in 1998

Carried those bums kicking and screaming to the 98' title

Goat-level players don't make excuses

You're the one who asked why, weirdo.

[3ba11]

Jordan's team won 55 games without him, more wins than the Pistons and only a couple less than the Lakers & Blazers.


Those Bulls were lottery in 95' - that was the real Bulls without MJ - no one took the 94' Bulls seriously, since they were just living off the plausible deniability of 3-peat swagger and no pressure/surprise factor in regular season (predictably exposed in PO)

[RogueBorg]

Jordan's team won 55 games without him, more wins than the Pistons and only a couple less than the Lakers & Blazers.

Tell the rest of the story. Jordan's team won 55 games without him and got bounced in the second round of the playoffs by a Knicks team that Jordan and the Bulls beat every year when he was there.

There's just no getting around it;
1991 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1992 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1993 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1994 without Jordan = losing to the Knicks and NOT winning the NBA Championship

6 in 15 is always >>> 4 in 19

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs

The 2019 Lakers were exactly like the teams that Jordan grew into dynasties.

However, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win - his skillset literally prevents organic winning.

Unfortunately, he never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles.. Since he can't elevate teammates, he never learned how to win (organic chemistry) and therefore needed to team-hop (talent-based winning)..

[ShawkFactory]

Tell the rest of the story. Jordan's team won 55 games without him and got bounced in the second round of the playoffs by a Knicks team that Jordan and the Bulls beat every year when he was there.

There's just no getting around it;
1991 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1992 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1993 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1994 without Jordan = losing to the Knicks and NOT winning the NBA Championship

6 in 15 is always >>> 4 in 19

Well no one said that the Bulls were BETTER without Jordan...

Coming a game from beating the SRS#1 team in the league without Jordan in a series is a testatment to them..not the other way around.

[SouBeachTalents]

Tell the rest of the story. Jordan's team won 55 games without him and got bounced in the second round of the playoffs by a Knicks team that Jordan and the Bulls beat every year when he was there.

There's just no getting around it;
1991 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1992 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1993 with Jordan = beat the Knicks on the way to the NBA Championship
1994 without Jordan = losing to the Knicks and NOT winning the NBA Championship

6 in 15 is always >>> 4 in 19
Wow, you remove the greatest player of all time in his prime and the team doesn't do as well. You don't say :lol If not for a dubious foul on Pippen the Bulls very likely advance to the conference finals where they'd have HCA.

And of course Jordan won more titles, his team won 55 games without him :oldlol: While LeBron's have always missed the playoffs, and in the case of the Cavs, instantly became the worst team in the league. Twice.

[3ba11]

.
Miller and Pippen faced the same playoff opponent 6 times:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage

[3ba11]

.



If not for a dubious foul on Pippen the Bulls





Stop pretending - we know the foul wasn't "dubious"


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif






very likely advance to the conference finals where they'd have HCA.





Miller had many deep runs as #1 option including nearly beating MJ's Bulls and Shaq/Kobe Lakers in Finals.

So he would destroy Pippen just like he did the 6 times they played the same playoff opponent (see previous post above).





And of course Jordan won more titles, his team won 55 games without him :oldlol: While LeBron's have always missed the playoffs, and in the case of the Cavs, instantly became the worst team in the league. Twice.


The 2010 Cavs were 2nd Round losers, while Jordan left the Bulls as 3-peat champs.

So you're dumb for comparing the 2

Furthermore, the 2014 Heat were record losers and the equivalent of a 1st Round Western team, which doesn't compare to a 3-peat dynasty either.

Additionally, team-hoppers destroy teams, so the 11' Cavs lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - Lebron forced them to start over after historic playoff choke, while Jordan left a 3-peat champ with everyone in their prime and tons of flexibility for management to upgrade the entire roster significantly.

Again, no comparison.

[AirBonner]

No Pip? No chip

[3ba11]

No Pip? No chip


no team-hopping for MULTIPLE pip's, no chip




No Pip? No chip


Durant, Lebron, Giannis and Curry didn't win any playoff series in their first few years, so you're knocking Jordan for losing at a time period where EVERYONE loses

which means you have no legit knocks on the GOAT (that's how it's supposed to be)... :pimp:

[ShawkFactory]

Technically a player is defined as being in the act of shooting from the time he goes up for the shot until after he has landed back on the ground. Except, as even Davis admits, "That's a call you normally don't get."

Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."

Dubious indeed. Even Davis thought it wouldn't be called.

[SouBeachTalents]

Technically a player is defined as being in the act of shooting from the time he goes up for the shot until after he has landed back on the ground. Except, as even Davis admits, "That's a call you normally don't get."

Today, with concern about defenders sliding under shooters and causing injuries, it gets called more often. That wasn't the case back then, and certainly not with a playoff outcome riding on it. Steve Kerr had been hit the same way several times that year, his first with the Bulls, and never was sent to the free-throw line.

"I went to the ref every time and they said, 'It doesn't matter, the shot was released," Kerr says. "Back then it was not called. And every time I asked the ref, I got the exact same explanation: Once you release the shot it doesn't matter."

Dubious indeed. Even Davis thought it wouldn't be called.
Damn

[3ba11]

Technically a player is defined as being in the act of shooting from the time he goes up for the shot until after he has landed back on the ground.





So it was an obvious foul - Hubert was literally hacked before he came down... :confusedshrug:






Except, as even Davis admits, "That's a call you normally don't get."





^^^ Hubert said it was a legit call but you "normally" don't get - so it's a dumb foul because "normally" means it still gets called a lot.

we see guys get that call all the time back then and now - not uncommon at all and even more common today.

Ultimately, Pippen violated the first rule of bball101 - NEVER FOUL A JUMPSHOOTER - only chokers like Pippen would do it - and that's another reason we know this was a choke because Pippen is a habitual choker with many chokes on his resume.. He literally hacked Hubert on the forearm - forearm to forearm

The tape don't lie, so you aren't convincing anyone

[ShawkFactory]

So it was an obvious foul - Hubert was literally hacked before he came down... :confusedshrug:





^^^ Hubert said it was a legit call but you "normally" don't get - so it's a dumb foul because "normally" means it still gets called a lot.

we see guys get that call all the time back then and now - not uncommon at all and even more common today.

Ultimately, Pippen violated the first rule of bball101 - NEVER FOUL A JUMPSHOOTER - only chokers like Pippen would do it - and that's another reason we know this was a choke because Pippen is a habitual choker with many chokes on his resume.. He literally hacked Hubert on the forearm - forearm to forearm

The tape don't lie, so you aren't convincing anyone

I love how you're trying to rewrite history despite blatant evidence to the contrary. Direct quotes from people that participated in the game in question say that that was a dubious call (especially since it was a late call as well). INCLUDING THE PERSON WHO GOT FOULED :lol

To use your quote...you aren't convincing anyone.

[3ba11]

I love how you're trying to rewrite history despite blatant evidence to the contrary. Direct quotes from people that participated in the game in question say that that was a dubious call (especially since it was a late call as well). INCLUDING THE PERSON WHO GOT FOULED :lol

To use your quote...you aren't convincing anyone.


Your quote literally defined it as a foul that was called by refs, just not "normally"..

So it's a dumb foul, especially since everyone knows that you don't foul a jumpshooter, let alone with the game on the line

another historic choke for Pippen that caused loss - the video tape and historical record is on MY side, not yours

[Hey Yo]

no team-hopping for MULTIPLE pip's no chip

So you're saying LeBron seeked out a sidekick that sucked???

[ShawkFactory]

Your quote literally defined it as a foul that was called by refs, just not "normally"..

So it's a dumb foul, especially since everyone knows that you don't foul a jumpshooter, let alone with the game on the line

another historic choke for Pippen that caused loss - the video tape and historical record is on MY side, not yours

Yes...meaning that the call was abnormal. An abnormal call (ESPECIALLY on the last play of the game when refs typically let things slide even more) = dubious.

Technically you're supposed to go the speed limit but no one is pulling you over for going 57 in a 50. Pippen was in this scenario. Technically right but kind of bullshit. As was the general consensus when it happened.

[3ba11]

Yes...meaning that the call was abnormal. An abnormal call (ESPECIALLY on the last play of the game when refs typically let things slide even more) = dubious.

Technically you're supposed to go the speed limit but no one is pulling you over for going 57 in a 50. Pippen was in this scenario. Technically right but kind of bullshit. As was the general consensus when it happened.


Your information confirms that it was a foul and the video confirms it was an obvious hack

And if it gets called 10-50% of the time - that's a lot and a dumb foul

So I'm not sure what more you want - it was a foul that Pippen was dumb for committing, but it's standard for Pippen (more chokes than anyone else in history... BY FAR)

[Spurs m8]

Crazy.

And not surprising that Ingram went MIP the following season.

But that much talent and he couldn't do anything.

Always has to trade all the young assets for ready made, cherry picked pieces...its really pathetic and franchise killing

[ShawkFactory]

Your information confirms that it was a foul and the video confirms it was an obvious hack

And if it gets called 10-50% of the time - that's a lot and a dumb foul

So I'm not sure what more you want - it was a foul that Pippen was dumb for committing, but it's standard for Pippen (more chokes than anyone else in history... BY FAR)

Admitting that the foul call was kind of weak doesn't make Jordan any worse as a player. You can do it. This is a safe space.

[StrongLurk]

No one respects OP, he is shameless and his Lebron butthurt is measureless. Total troll and fraud.

[SouBeachTalents]

Admitting that the foul call was kind of weak doesn't make Jordan any worse as a player. You can do it. This is a safe space.
Didn't he argue the Knicks destroyed the Bulls too :lol Dude's living in a QAnonesque reality.

[3ba11]

Admitting that the foul call was kind of weak doesn't make Jordan any worse as a player. You can do it. This is a safe space.


You're obviously not a coach if you're letting guys get away with hacking jumpshooters with the game on the line

Pippen simply can't perform under pressure, and his foul on Hubert is part of the longest list of chokes in history - Pippen has the most chokes in history.... BY FAR

Pippen was even choking super hard in Houston and Portland at legendary, historic levels... Goat levels of choke... But keep pretending otherwise lol.. it's amusing

[ShawkFactory]

You're obviously not a coach if you're letting guys get away with hacking jumpshooters with the game on the line

Pippen simply can't perform under pressure, and his foul on Hubert is part of the longest list of chokes in history - Pippen has the most chokes in history.... BY FAR

Pippen was even choking super hard in Houston and Portland at legendary, historic levels... Goat levels of choke... But keep pretending otherwise lol.. it's amusing

No. But Pippen's coach said this:

After the game, Phil Jackson didn't take any questions when he addressed the media. He made one statement that lasted exactly 38 seconds. His main point: "I've seen a lot of things happen in the NBA, but I've never seen anything happen like what happened at the end of the game."

[3ba11]

No. But Pippen's coach said this:

After the game, Phil Jackson didn't take any questions when he addressed the media. He made one statement that lasted exactly 38 seconds. His main point: "I've seen a lot of things happen in the NBA, but I've never seen anything happen like what happened at the end of the game."


He didn't see the replay obviously

It's funny because Phil hated Pippen for wetting the bed so severely in that series, with poor performance and so many chokes - historic big ones and so many little ones too

[ShawkFactory]

He didn't see the replay obviously

It's funny because Phil hated Pippen for wetting the bed so severely in that series, with poor performance and so many chokes - historic big ones and so many little ones too

That IS funny. Makes the fact that he was so flabbergasted by the call even better.

[3ba11]

That IS funny. Makes the fact that he was so flabbergasted by the call even better.


Tough loss, but Phil wouldn't be mad if he saw this - Pippen hacks the shit out of Hubert:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif



Here's what Pippen did right BEFORE the dumb foul on Hubert Davis - he passes up a huge clearout and gives it to BJ for a rushed shot:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif



Phil was pissed at Pippen after that - he already knew that Pippen couldn't be trusted when it mattered and that he should've gone with Kukoc again:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/8uUPI_.gif


So Pippen choked many times - the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and Game 7, plus a lot of other little chokes in between

The problem is that he was overrated by new fans for the last couple decades, so it's gone to his head now - he called Phil racist for going with Kukoc - that's pretty dumb because Phil had no problem putting the ball in MJ's hands

[ShawkFactory]

[B]Tough loss, but Phil wouldn't be mad if he saw this - Pippen hacks the shit out of Hubert:



But it was after the release. And as has already been discussed, refs didn't call fouls after the ball was released in those days. Especially not in the last seconds.

We've come full circle.

[RogueBorg]

.
Pippen hacks the shit out of Hubert:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif



Here's what Pippen did right BEFORE the dumb foul on Hubert Davis - he passes up a huge clearout and gives it to BJ for a rushed shot:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif



Phil was pissed at Pippen after that - he already knew that Pippen couldn't be trusted when it mattered and that he should've gone with Kukoc again:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/8uUPI_.gif


So Pippen choked many times - the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and Game 7, plus a lot of other little chokes in between

The problem is that he was overrated by new fans for the last couple decades, so it's gone to his head now - he called Phil racist for going with Kukoc - that's pretty dumb because Phil had no problem putting the ball in MJ's hands

Scottie's not the brightest guy around. Who spends $4.3 million on an airplane that can't fly? Pipp

Probably bought that plane from the Lion King on the Island of Misfit Toys

[3ba11]

But it was after the release. And as has already been discussed, refs didn't call fouls after the ball was released in those days. Especially not in the last seconds.

We've come full circle.


The first sentences of your earlier info said it's a foul anytime before the shooter comes down

So it was a foul....a HACK infact... the jittery Pippen in the clutch jumped the gun

It's cool because Pippen's close series shows that MJ would've won in his place (more evidence that Pippen wasn't needed)...

MJ just needed a decent system that could use his scoring STRATEGICALLY.. the 80's bulls would look to find MJ as soon as possible to end possessions (predictable), while the 90's Bulls would work the defense first and then find MJ for the knockout blow after the defense played good for 18 seconds.