Was Peak Kevin McHale better than Peak Karl Malone?

[Im Still Ballin]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m54n6xX2Lg1qa47iwo1_500.jpg

I think so. Here's my case why:

1) Superior defender

Kevin McHale was one of the best defenders in the NBA, guarding 3s, 4s, and 5s at an elite level. In the 1986 postseason, he went from guarding explosive SFs like Woolridge and Wilkins to manning Hakeem and Ralph Sampson. I've watched other games where he has defended Bernard King and Manute Bol in the same game.

In my opinion, he was the best defender on the team; the primary rim protector who generally matched up the best frontcourt player. It didn't matter if it was an SF like Dominique, a PF like Karl Malone, or a C like Kareem. His versatility was truly underappreciated.

Fun Fact: The coaches actually voted him as the best defensive player in the league in 1987. The DPOY award has always been voted by sportswriters and broadcasters.

Karl Malone on the other hand simply didn't have the length to match McHale. This somewhat limits the positions and players he could guard. However, he was a great low-post defender who had the strength to muscle around with anyone, even Shaq at times. He also had quick hands when defending in the post.

2) Better offensive player

Both were great offensive players at their respective bests, but Kevin McHale was simply more efficient, dominant, and unstoppable. Malone ran the fastbreak better than anyone, even Kevin who always hustled hard. Malone also was the superior face-up and pick-and-roll player. Because of this, he drew more fouls.

However, I prefer/value McHale's unstoppable low-post arsenal, which to me has a more "foundational" quality. He was a literal walking mismatch that commanded an automatic double/triple team. Guys like Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge would get literal wide-open jump shots because of Kevin.

I think Karl Malone was the king of getting the "easy" buckets. This works well in the regular season, but not so in the playoffs. There's a reason why McHale's FG% maintained and even got better in the postseason, while the opposite is true for Malone. Teams could take away things from Karl and he'd have no counter. Kevin had every counter.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Possibly but was never in the role to prove himself to be. It's like asking was peak manu Ginobili better then peak dwyane wade? The answer could be yes if you look at impact per minute but they usually played much smaller roles on their teams

[1987_Lakers]

Lol, I guess my post in your thread gave you some ideas.

But in my view, yes. His game translated in the playoffs better, Malone got alot of his buckets in transition, but in the half court set McHale was the better scorer. And McHale's versatility on defense does it for me. I remember watching the Celtics-Hawks '86 series years ago and came away very impressed with how McHale defended Dominique.

[FultzNationRISE]

Personally I have no idea, but according to Charles Barkley: Yes.

[Im Still Ballin]

Possibly but was never in the role to prove himself to be. It's like asking was peak manu Ginobili better then peak dwyane wade? The answer could be yes if you look at impact per minute but they usually played much smaller roles on their teams

I think there was a small window from around 1985 to 1987 where McHale was certified 1a/1b with Bird. He led the team in scoring in the finals in 1985 and 1986 -- would've won FMVP in 85 and was super close in 86. Was getting legitimate MVP buzz in 1987 before he broke his foot and his play dropped off for the last 6 weeks of the season.

It's all subjective really. You can't really apply this binary analysis to superstar/side-kick and be 100% consistent and accurate.

[Im Still Ballin]

Lol, I guess my post in your thread gave you some ideas.

But in my view, yes. His game translated in the playoffs better, Malone got alot of his buckets in transition, but in the half court set McHale was the better scorer. And McHale's versatility on defense does it for me. I remember watching the Celtics-Hawks '86 series years ago and came away very impressed with how McHale defended Dominique.

Held Woolridge to 49% TS, who was a 56% TS in the regular season. Ditto regarding Wilkins: 49% TS, who put up 53% TS in the regular season.

What surprised me was to learn that the coaches voted him their DPOY in 1987. Talk about an insane season: 26/10 with 2.2 blocks, shooting 60% FG and 83.6% FT.

Only guy to do 20+ PPG, 60%+ FG, and 80%+ FT in a season. And now I learn he won coaches DPOY as well? Insane.

[Im Still Ballin]

Found this gem.



In his prime, McHale was held in high esteem around the league. When he prepared for playing the Celtics, then-76ers coach Billy Cunningham said that McHale was the player who caused him to lose sleep at night.

"Believe it or not, we felt we had a game plan with Bird, as good as he was you could only stop him so much," Cunningham says. "But we didn't know how to match up with McHale. We were stuck between a rock and a hard place. He had the best post moves probably of any player I can remember."

[FireDavidKahn]

Only thing Karl was better at was impregnating 13 year olds.

Dude is a piece of shit and filthy trash.

[Round Mound]

Before McHale broke his foot in 1987 he was considered the best pf in the game. Malone's efficiency in the play-offs was like a 46% shooter. That's shooting guard like level not a pf. Barkley was the most efficient PF in terms of scoring if you take away 3-pointers made and missed. 2nd would be McHale.

[HylianNightmare]

I think so

[expansionera]

All Malone did was lose and rape young girls, give me McHale’s defense and best all time post arsenal

[Thenameless]

Both at their best, I take McHale.

[jlip]

I honestly don't think a definitive answer can be provided here as we never saw a peak, fully healthy McHale in a situation where he had to be the focal point of a team. Whose to say that if he was, he wouldn't essentially be a much taller and longer power forward version of Adrian Dantley with excellent defense. AD was routinely putting up 25+ppg seasons with high shooting percentages, but he was also a black hole. McHale was known as a "black hole" also. So, as great as he was on Celtics, we just don't know how his game would translate to a team where he was solely "the man" Defensively, yes he was better than Malone though.

[iamgine]

Didn't Mchale became 'the man' in '89? Didn't do too well.

[ImKobe]

I honestly don't think a definitive answer can be provided here as we never saw a peak, fully healthy McHale in a situation where he had to be the focal point of a team. Whose to say that if he was, he wouldn't essentially be a much taller and longer power forward version of Adrian Dantley with excellent defense. AD was routinely putting up 25+ppg seasons with high shooting percentages, but he was also a black hole. McHale was known as a "black hole" also. So, as great as he was on Celtics, we just don't know how his game would translate to a team where he was solely "the man" Defensively, yes he was better than Malone though.

That's why I think that Malone is right there with McHale. He didn't have the loaded rosters and never played next to someone of Bird's caliber. Stockton could shoot the ball and was a decent scorer in his prime but he wasn't going to take over a Playoff game and go for 30+ when Malone didn't have it. Stock had that one great shooting series in '89 but after that never scored 30+ in another game in any of their Playoff runs. What he did in the '98 POs with an injured Stockton is really impressive as he beat Hakeem, Duncan/Robinson & Shaq and outplayed them all in 3 straight rounds without having a 2nd option that even averaged 13+ a game in any of these series, and was a hair away from taking MJ to 7 games. He's better than a lot of people give him credit for, and obviously his off-court stuff is a good reason for that. People want to rip on his FG% but he shot a ton of mid-range shots & long 2s.

[L.Kizzle]

Hell nah.

[kawhileonard2]

Lol, I guess my post in your thread gave you some ideas.

But in my view, yes. His game translated in the playoffs better, Malone got alot of his buckets in transition, but in the half court set McHale was the better scorer. And McHale's versatility on defense does it for me. I remember watching the Celtics-Hawks '86 series years ago and came away very impressed with how McHale defended Dominique.

Mchale wasn't. Mchale couldn't beat Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler and then Duncan/Robinson and then Shaq/Kobe/Jones/Van Exel in the playoffs the same year.

[L.Kizzle]

This overating of McHale has to stop. He has 1 All-NBA team, and zero 10 rebounds per game seasons.

Whatever his peak season was, Malone was doing for 12+ seasons straight.

[1987_Lakers]

This overating of McHale has to stop. He has 1 All-NBA team, and zero 10 rebounds per game seasons.

Whatever his peak season was, Malone was doing for 12+ seasons straight.

The title of the thread is comparing peaks, not careers. lol

[L.Kizzle]

The title of the thread is comparing peaks, not careers. lol
Malone peak was better as well, lol. When your peak is MVP (twice) then yeah.

[L.Kizzle]

The title of the thread is comparing peaks, not careers. lol

Bout to start a peak Jerry Lucas vs Wilt Chamberlain thread. Wonder how that'll turn out.

[L.Kizzle]

Damn, Kevin McHale has never even won a player of the Week award. He's never even been the best player in the league for a week. It's hard out here man, lol.

[kawhileonard2]

Damn, Kevin McHale has never even won a player of the Week award. He's never even been the best player in the league for a week. It's hard out here man, lol.

To be fair in 2003 they switched it up. They had player of the week in east and west before it was only one for entire league.

[ClipperRevival]

I honestly don't think a definitive answer can be provided here as we never saw a peak, fully healthy McHale in a situation where he had to be the focal point of a team. Whose to say that if he was, he wouldn't essentially be a much taller and longer power forward version of Adrian Dantley with excellent defense. AD was routinely putting up 25+ppg seasons with high shooting percentages, but he was also a black hole. McHale was known as a "black hole" also. So, as great as he was on Celtics, we just don't know how his game would translate to a team where he was solely "the man" Defensively, yes he was better than Malone though.

Good post.

Yeah, McHale was never truly "the man" for a sustained period of time. How would he have handled being the focal point of the D and the constant doubles? He wasn't much of a passer so he wasn't going to elevate his teammates. Maybe as "the man", he improves this aspect but as it stands, not really.

Dantley is a good comp. Another dominante scorer on the block with amazing efficiency but was labeled a black hole. Efficiency doesn't = optimal bball.

[ClipperRevival]

And McHale couldn't guard 3s consistently. He didn't have the lateral quickness to keep them in front of him. Maybe in spot duties as he had amazing length but not match up all game long. He just lacked the athleticism to stay with 3s.

Another big flaw of McHale was his lack of athleticism. He could only play a slow pace game while Malone was one of the best PF ever on the break. He could play up tempo or half court. Malone checked more boxes.

[L.Kizzle]

To be fair in 2003 they switched it up. They had player of the week in east and west before it was only one for entire league.

All of Karl Malones were before that time.

[Im Still Ballin]

I honestly don't think a definitive answer can be provided here as we never saw a peak, fully healthy McHale in a situation where he had to be the focal point of a team. Whose to say that if he was, he wouldn't essentially be a much taller and longer power forward version of Adrian Dantley with excellent defense. AD was routinely putting up 25+ppg seasons with high shooting percentages, but he was also a black hole. McHale was known as a "black hole" also. So, as great as he was on Celtics, we just don't know how his game would translate to a team where he was solely "the man" Defensively, yes he was better than Malone though.

Good post. Great comparison with Dantley.

A taller, longer Adrian Dantley + excellent defense is an MVP-tier guy IMO. That's kind of what we saw at McHales peak in 1986-1987 when he was getting MVP press/hype. He was putting up 27/10 on 63% FG before he broke his foot and his performance dropped with 5-6 weeks left in the season.

It's also worth noting that same season he was All-NBA 1st Defense AND the coaches voted him the best defender in the NBA.

I think it's simply about the personnel you surround each player with. McHale is a guy that needs someone that's a good facilitator/floor general because that's not his game. He's a finisher that wins the paint battle for you with dominant interior scoring and elite rim protection.


Didn't Mchale became 'the man' in '89? Didn't do too well.

He was never really the same after breaking his foot and continuing to play on it. He originally hurt it in January of 1987 and continued to play until June when they lost in the finals to the Lakers. What was originally a navicular fracture developed into a continually-widening stress fracture.

Even after having surgery and going through rehab, he still had issues, such as nerve problems with his toes and scar tissue.

It was the same injury that Jordan had that caused him to sit almost the entire 1985-1986 season. The same one that absolutely wrecked Bill Walton's career.


That's why I think that Malone is right there with McHale. He didn't have the loaded rosters and never played next to someone of Bird's caliber. Stockton could shoot the ball and was a decent scorer in his prime but he wasn't going to take over a Playoff game and go for 30+ when Malone didn't have it. Stock had that one great shooting series in '89 but after that never scored 30+ in another game in any of their Playoff runs. What he did in the '98 POs with an injured Stockton is really impressive as he beat Hakeem, Duncan/Robinson & Shaq and outplayed them all in 3 straight rounds without having a 2nd option that even averaged 13+ a game in any of these series, and was a hair away from taking MJ to 7 games. He's better than a lot of people give him credit for, and obviously his off-court stuff is a good reason for that. People want to rip on his FG% but he shot a ton of mid-range shots & long 2s.

I think you're seriously underrating John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek. But yes, that playoff run was extremely impressive. Malone did absolutely change his career outlook in the late '90s.

[Im Still Ballin]

Good post.

Yeah, McHale was never truly "the man" for a sustained period of time. How would he have handled being the focal point of the D and the constant doubles? He wasn't much of a passer so he wasn't going to elevate his teammates. Maybe as "the man", he improves this aspect but as it stands, not really.

If you actually go back and watch the games you'll see that it was McHale who was getting doubled and tripled. Teams would leave Dennis Johnson and Danny Ainge wide open because of Kevin down in the low post. Bird got open by continually moving off the ball like Klay and Steph do, running through off-ball/pindown screens.

I think it's an extremely reductive, inaccurate assessment to say that McHale got easy shots because of Bird. If anything, in the halfcourt, set it was the other way around. To be truthful, they benefitted and complimented each other perfectly. McHale drew double teams and defensive attention that allowed Larry to find an opening while the opposition was preoccupied.

Just because McHale didn't get the assist doesn't mean he didn't warp the defense. Larry was usually on the weakside while DJ/Ainge fed Kevin the post entry pass. The defense would double Kev, he'd throw it back to DJ/Ainge and they'd swing it over to Bird on the other side of the court. From there Bird would attack fast before the help defense could position and set.


Dantley is a good comp. Another dominante scorer on the block with amazing efficiency but was labeled a black hole. Efficiency doesn't = optimal bball.

I think this is another reductive, simplistic analysis. It's all about what type of players you surround an individual with. What we do know is that McHale led the Celtics in scoring during multiple series in those peak seasons.

He would've won FMVP in 1985 if they had won. He led both teams in scoring putting up 26/11 on 64.4% TS. Led the top scorers in efficiency.

Did very similar numbers in the 1986 finals: 26/9 on 62.9% TS. Led both teams in scoring and efficiency among the top scorers.

Is this not "optimal bball?"

Adrian Dantley himself was this close to winning a championship and finals MVP in 1988. AD was a talent that needed the right complementary players, just like everyone else.


And McHale couldn't guard 3s consistently. He didn't have the lateral quickness to keep them in front of him. Maybe in spot duties as he had amazing length but not match up all game long. He just lacked the athleticism to stay with 3s.

Another big flaw of McHale was his lack of athleticism. He could only play a slow pace game while Malone was one of the best PF ever on the break. He could play up tempo or half court. Malone checked more boxes.

McHale did well from the footage that I've seen. His length allowed him to sag off and contain drives while still being able to contest shots. I've seen him defend Nique, King, and Woolridge well.

He may not have run the fastbreak like Malone but he was better than most PFs. I think you also underrate his athleticism. Athleticism is more than how high you can jump or how fast you can run. Kevin was very agile and coordinated. He was also surprisingly strong, in a long-armed, wiry type of way.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kevin McHale played 10 games without Larry Bird between 1985 and 1987

1984-1985 (2 games)

27.0 PPG / 11.5 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.5 SPG / 1.0 BPG on 64.5% FG (10/15.5) and 77.8% FT (7.0/9.0) [69.37% TS]

1986-1987 (8 games)

28.0 PPG / 8.5 RPG / 3.0 APG / 0.5 SPG / 3.4 BPG on 59% FG (10.6/18) and 88.5% FT (6.8/7.6) [65.59% TS]

Combined that is: (10 games)

27.8 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 2.6 APG / 0.5 SPG / 2.9 BPG on 60% FG (10.5/17.5) and 88% FT (6.8/7.8) [66.41% TS]

[Round Mound]

Kevin McHale played 10 games without Larry Bird between 1985 and 1987

1984-1985 (2 games)

27.0 PPG / 11.5 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.5 SPG / 1.0 BPG on 64.5% FG (10/15.5) and 77.8% FT (7.0/9.0) [69.37% TS]

1986-1987 (8 games)

28.0 PPG / 8.5 RPG / 3.0 APG / 0.5 SPG / 3.4 BPG on 59% FG (10.6/18) and 88.5% FT (6.8/7.6) [65.59% TS]

Combined that is: (10 games)

27.8 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 2.6 APG / 0.5 SPG / 2.9 BPG on 60% FG (10.5/17.5) and 88% FT (6.8/7.8) [66.41% TS]

:bowdown:

BTW where did you get those stats? (Game Score Box Of McHale Playing Without Bird).

[WhiteKyrie]

Malone is an actual garbage human being. But come on, he’s the superior player, obviously. But McHale was a bad boy. Great post defense and tremendous foot work in the post.

[iamgine]

Kevin McHale played 10 games without Larry Bird between 1985 and 1987

1984-1985 (2 games)

27.0 PPG / 11.5 RPG / 1.0 APG / 0.5 SPG / 1.0 BPG on 64.5% FG (10/15.5) and 77.8% FT (7.0/9.0) [69.37% TS]

1986-1987 (8 games)

28.0 PPG / 8.5 RPG / 3.0 APG / 0.5 SPG / 3.4 BPG on 59% FG (10.6/18) and 88.5% FT (6.8/7.6) [65.59% TS]

Combined that is: (10 games)

27.8 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 2.6 APG / 0.5 SPG / 2.9 BPG on 60% FG (10.5/17.5) and 88% FT (6.8/7.8) [66.41% TS]

Even with this statline, I think Mchale was outplayed by his teammate in about half the games. They also didn't have that good of a record during this.

It's not that easy being the man.

[L.Kizzle]

They played 15 games head to head (McHale and Malone.) Karl outscored him 11-4 (three of the games coming in Karl's 1st two seasons in the league.)

[Micku]

And McHale couldn't guard 3s consistently. He didn't have the lateral quickness to keep them in front of him. Maybe in spot duties as he had amazing length but not match up all game long. He just lacked the athleticism to stay with 3s.

Another big flaw of McHale was his lack of athleticism. He could only play a slow pace game while Malone was one of the best PF ever on the break. He could play up tempo or half court. Malone checked more boxes.

He could guard a bunch of 3s consistently I thought. But it did depend on the match up. Usually whoever is the weakest link for Bird to the guard. Bird would usually guard the PF rather than the SFs from the games that I watched, so Mchale would guard the SFs. The Celts usually hide Bird and let him roam around because Bird had a nice sense of help defense, but not their best one on one defender. He guarded Wilkins constantly and there were times where he was really successful. He guarded Worthy, but Worthy was too quick. His lack of athleticism failed him with there, with the Lakers in general. But James Worthy was doing that to everybody. But this is me going off of memory from the games that I watched.


Mchale could run up the floor, but not on the lvl of Karl Malone for sure . You can see him do stuff like this a few times tho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nWGzA48etA#t=01m23s


But his bread and butter is his post game, but he had a nice mid range jumper.

Peak Mchale could handle any PF tho imo. Dude is under appreciated of how unstoppable he was when it came to scoring. He's an fantastic two way player. Whatever or not he could impact the team as the man, at his peak, we'll never know.

But I think peak Mchale might've been a better two way player than Malone. Mchale was the better rim protector, solid on the perimeter defense, but also very good at post defending too. But Malone was also not that shabby at post defending. He athleticism helped at the pick and roll defending, he was good enough not to get completely smoked if there was a switch. So, it wasn't too far off between the two.

I think Malone could impact better because he was a better passer, rebounder and is more versatile on the offense like you said. He had more ways to score and attack. Malone sets better screens for sure.

But Mchale is a more unstoppable scorer at his peak tho.

[La Frescobaldi]

He could guard a bunch of 3s consistently I thought. But it did depend on the match up. Usually whoever is the weakest link for Bird to the guard. Bird would usually guard the PF rather than the SFs from the games that I watched, so Mchale would guard the SFs. The Celts usually hide Bird and let him roam around because Bird had a nice sense of help defense, but not their best one on one defender. He guarded Wilkins constantly and there were times where he was really successful. He guarded Worthy, but Worthy was too quick. His lack of athleticism failed him with there, with the Lakers in general. But James Worthy was doing that to everybody. But this is me going off of memory from the games that I watched.


Mchale could run up the floor, but not on the lvl of Karl Malone for sure . You can see him do stuff like this a few times tho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nWGzA48etA#t=01m23s


But his bread and butter is his post game, but he had a nice mid range jumper.

Peak Mchale could handle any PF tho imo. Dude is under appreciated of how unstoppable he was when it came to scoring. He's an fantastic two way player. Whatever or not he could impact the team as the man, at his peak, we'll never know.

But I think peak Mchale might've been a better two way player than Malone. Mchale was the better rim protector, solid on the perimeter defense, but also very good at post defending too. But Malone was also not that shabby at post defending. He athleticism helped at the pick and roll defending, he was good enough not to get completely smoked if there was a switch. So, it wasn't too far off between the two.

I think Malone could impact better because he was a better passer, rebounder and is more versatile on the offense like you said. He had more ways to score and attack. Malone sets better screens for sure.

But Mchale is a more unstoppable scorer at his peak tho.

Yeah. Nicely phrased and factual.
There was no possibility of McHale gettin an mvp on 80s Celtics team and by that token, if you trade the two guys there’s no possibility Malone would have either.
Nor does Malone ever put up his Utah kinds of numbers on an 80s Celtics squad.

Before he jacked his foot McHale was a serious threat at all times people do forget

[bizil]

While I think McHale is underrated, I gotta go with the Mailman. And once Malone his his peak, he was TRULY a total package PF. In terms of scoring, rebounding, defending, and even passing. People forget Mailman was four times All League defense. And dropped 7 4APG seasons. No diss to McHale at all. I think he's a top 10 GOAT PF. And before Mailman and Barkley, was indeed the best PF in the world. But it takes Barkley, Duncan, KG, Giannis type guys to supercede what Malone did. ON a peak level. Malone was probably the last TRUE GREAT old school type of PF!

By that, I mean a guy who WANTED to fufill all the old school PF duties. And MAX OUT in those areas. Barkley for all his brute force played SF as well early in his career. And played like a point power forward often times. KG was like a positionless type of 7 foot player. Like a Giannis or AD today. Dirk is the gold standard stretch PF. And Timmy was the ultimate PF-C type. He brought the interior two way dominance of the great centers to the PF.

But I gotta admit, I would have liked to see McHale as the long term #1 option on a contender. Just to see what heights he could have reached. Barkley said McHale was the best PF he played against BECAUSE McHale was such a great two way PF. So defensively, I can see McHale having the edge on the Mailman. Even in terms of scoring fundamentals on the block, McHale is still the best PF of all time. But ultimately the more skilled player or better two way player DOESN'T mean the better player. Scoring, passing, and rebounding edge would go to Malone. The more physically dominant player would go to Malone. Kev would have the edge on defense.

[bizil]

I have a feeling if a peak Barkley or Mailman played on Boston instead of McHale, there would have been seasons where THEY would have been the leading scorer on Boston. While Bird would still be seen as the best player. Bird was such a genius level passer that I think he would have CATERED to those guys big time. Like he did Kev. But those guys ALSO were among the best PF's ever in transition. Kev averaged 26 PPG alongside Bird. Which was awesome. So I see NO REASON when Barkley or Malone couldn't average more alongside Bird.

[L.Kizzle]

I have a feeling if a peak Barkley or Mailman played on Boston instead of McHale, there would have been seasons where THEY would have been the leading scorer on Boston. While Bird would still be seen as the best player. Bird was such a genius level passer that I think he would have CATERED to those guys big time. Like he did Kev. But those guys ALSO were among the best PF's ever in transition. Kev averaged 26 PPG alongside Bird. Which was awesome. So I see NO REASON when Barkley or Malone couldn't average more alongside Bird.
Of course they would, they're better players. Hell, Barkley 2nd season with Philly he was a 20/13 player already (this is with Doc, Moses, Cheeks, etc.) McHale was still on the bench his 2nd season.
Malone was a 20 ppg scorer for 20 seasons, he'd be a great fit for the Celtics.

[HoopsNY]

One thing that people have to remember about McHale is that he (like Bird) did whatever they had to do to get the win. McHale got injured during his peak, but another thing that's forgotten is that he often came off the bench.

McHale has more career games coming off the bench than actual starts. Granted, during most of his peak, he was a starter, but there was a lot of his prime years where he wasn't.

I can't really say if peak McHale > peak Malone, but I'm not surprised that some feel that he was. The one thing that Malone has is leadership and his ability to take a team deep into the playoffs and finals, as well as 2 MVP awards with Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Hill, Kidd, GP, etc all in the league.

[La Frescobaldi]

One thing that people have to remember about McHale is that he (like Bird) did whatever they had to do to get the win. McHale got injured during his peak, but another thing that's forgotten is that he often came off the bench.

McHale has more career games coming off the bench than actual starts. Granted, during most of his peak, he was a starter, but there was a lot of his prime years where he wasn't.

I can't really say if peak McHale > peak Malone, but I'm not surprised that some feel that he was. The one thing that Malone has is leadership and his ability to take a team deep into the playoffs and finals, as well as 2 MVP awards with Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Hill, Kidd, GP, etc all in the league.

Karl Malone’s team didn’t - and probably couldn’t - ever surround him with DJ, Parrish, Bird and Bill freaking Walton off the bench

Nor did he get to run with Longley, Pippen, Kerr, Kukoc, Rodman level players

Mark Eaton was nice at some things but not at a lot of other things. I mean Bob Hansen?
I still stand on the point though, put Malone on the mid 80s Celtics teams, his numbers drop. A lot. because he won’t be the focal point but would be one of four focal points.

those teams were great precisely because Bird forced everybody wearing those hated Celtics jerseys out on the floor to score, keep the attack balanced, and thus destroy defenses at will.

He’d have been freaking great however, just like always, and if he bought in they’d have won a lot of dang games even more than they did. Because he and bird had it in common the will to destroy worlds

[Im Still Ballin]

This was a great thread. ISH needs to get back to this sort of stuff.

[Thenameless]

Of course they would, they're better players. Hell, Barkley 2nd season with Philly he was a 20/13 player already (this is with Doc, Moses, Cheeks, etc.) McHale was still on the bench his 2nd season.
Malone was a 20 ppg scorer for 20 seasons, he'd be a great fit for the Celtics.

A two-time 6th Man of the Year is better than most starters. Just sayin'. McHale's play contributed to Championships in one of the toughest eras.

[La Frescobaldi]

A two-time 6th Man of the Year is better than most starters. Just sayin'. McHale's play contributed to Championships in one of the toughest eras.

This really ain’t as easy to answer as it first looks is it.

First jump, you go “well Malone is better just look at the books.”

But the fact is, you put Karl on those Celtics teams and the numbers aren’t going to be obvious at all because he’s not getting the ball from Stockton every time down the dang court. All of the sudden he’s got serious, truly all time great scoring threats all around him and they’re wearing his own jersey.

Ain’t no way he’s scoring as much because Bird, Parrish, DJ are high quality scoring machines, even ainge that filthy pigdog of a b1tch can shoot. Nor does he get as many rebounds.

He keeps them going longer, because McHale dropped off bad after his severe injury just like Bird did.

[L.Kizzle]

A two-time 6th Man of the Year is better than most starters. Just sayin'. McHale's play contributed to Championships in one of the toughest eras.
I never said he's a bum.

[Pointguard]

Karl Malone was very strong and always overpowered the opposition, super consistent, one of the fastest, got you easy baskets (on the break), wore down the opposition, was the best P&R player, kept the game simple, was a smart player and those qualities came at you for a full season no matter what and get you 50 wins for 19 years. Getting you easy baskets is one of the most underated traits in the game. How great and consistent was he? You could put the greatest one on one defenders on him (Rodman stopped Shaq) and have two of the greatest and fastest best help defenders ever, all of whom knew the entire Utah playbook along with being the most experienced and smart defenses, and Malone still averaged 25 and 10 while shooting over 50 percent at 34 years old and being slower. Hornacek and Stock only averaged 10 ppg each next to him as the teams other hightest scorers. So the Bulls knew where the ball was going and how the plays would mature. The other great PF's are not doing that in their primes. And Malone beats them all in longevity and point production per game - while being a consistent winner. He gets severly underrated. He was foul but... .


Yeah McHale is an all time great. Just really hard to compare to others.

[Im Still Ballin]

Karl Malone was very strong and always overpowered the opposition, super consistent, one of the fastest, got you easy baskets (on the break), wore down the opposition, was the best P&R player, kept the game simple, was a smart player and those qualities came at you for a full season no matter what and get you 50 wins for 19 years. Getting you easy baskets is one of the most underated traits in the game. How great and consistent was he? You could put the greatest one on one defenders on him (Rodman stopped Shaq) and have two of the greatest and fastest best help defenders ever, all of whom knew the entire Utah playbook along with being the most experienced and smart defenses, and Malone still averaged 25 and 10 while shooting over 50 percent at 34 years old and being slower. Hornacek and Stock only averaged 10 ppg each next to him as the teams other hightest scorers. So the Bulls knew where the ball was going and how the plays would mature. The other great PF's are not doing that in their primes. And Malone beats them all in longevity and point production per game - while being a consistent winner. He gets severly underrated. He was foul but... .


Yeah McHale is an all time great. Just really hard to compare to others.
Great post.

[La Frescobaldi]

Karl Malone was very strong and always overpowered the opposition, super consistent, one of the fastest, got you easy baskets (on the break), wore down the opposition, was the best P&R player, kept the game simple, was a smart player and those qualities came at you for a full season no matter what and get you 50 wins for 19 years. Getting you easy baskets is one of the most underated traits in the game. How great and consistent was he? You could put the greatest one on one defenders on him (Rodman stopped Shaq) and have two of the greatest and fastest best help defenders ever, all of whom knew the entire Utah playbook along with being the most experienced and smart defenses, and Malone still averaged 25 and 10 while shooting over 50 percent at 34 years old and being slower. Hornacek and Stock only averaged 10 ppg each next to him as the teams other hightest scorers. So the Bulls knew where the ball was going and how the plays would mature. The other great PF's are not doing that in their primes. And Malone beats them all in longevity and point production per game - while being a consistent winner. He gets severly underrated. He was foul but... .


Yeah McHale is an all time great. Just really hard to compare to others.

nice

Trying to think about the other side of what I was saying earlier about…. put Malone on Celtics, his numbers go down because Boston had so many other players with firepower.

Well, if you put McHale with Stockton do his numbers go up? To me, yes they would, sure, because he’d be the main guy throwing it up so often. But does Utah win as many with McHale as they do with Malone?

[Pointguard]

nice

Trying to think about the other side of what I was saying earlier about…. put Malone on Celtics, his numbers go down because Boston had so many other players with firepower.
I agree with the numbers thing. Both ways. Sobeit, Malone was mean and dirty so he fit in with the East. But very unlikely that that Celtics would keep him in the 80's. He would have helped them get more fast break baskets and would be a consistent contributer. But I liked the ball movement on the Celts and have trouble seeing Karl fitting in that role. I doubt there is another coach that would run the P&R 30 times a game. Bird was too witty with the ball to not have him at the center of the offense. I also think McHale was a great broken play player that was smart and could pass. I definitely have McHale as a better second option. Malone had like 8 years averaging over 27 ppg. Thats more than Double all the other great PF's added up together and he averaged 10 bounds a game those years. Malone is a carry the load and win PF along with being a jerk.


Well, if you put McHale with Stockton do his numbers go up? To me, yes they would, sure, because he’d be the main guy throwing it up so often. But does Utah win as many with McHale as they do with Malone?
Ha, Mchale would rather die than run that pick and roll over and over again. I don't know if McHale could carry the load year after year? AD is a great PF but he couldn't carry a team. He's definitely a great second option but he's not Giannis yet. Comparing second options to first options is really hard. And its never a guarantee that the second option can handle the first option role: Pippen was in the conversation of being the best player in the league when Jordan first left and Pip couldn't carry the load the second year, after doing good the first year. And the scouting reports focus moreso on the first option and aren't as likely to "build a wall" for the second option. Its too different for me to call.

[Pointguard]

Great post.:rockon:

[dankok8]

McHale has always been a bit of a black hole and was actually a poor passer whereas Malone was very good. And yes we are comparing only peaks but Malone was still more durable. McHale was a better low post/iso scorer but Malone in his younger days when he peaked as a scorer gave you 29-30 ppg on +3% rTS which is nothing to sneeze at.

I do think it's closer than people think but that's because McHale's peak is very underrated not because Karl is overrated as some people are implying.

[Im Still Ballin]

nice

Trying to think about the other side of what I was saying earlier about…. put Malone on Celtics, his numbers go down because Boston had so many other players with firepower.

Well, if you put McHale with Stockton do his numbers go up? To me, yes they would, sure, because he’d be the main guy throwing it up so often. But does Utah win as many with McHale as they do with Malone?

McHale playing alongside Mark Eaton would've been nasty on defense. Eaton was holding down the paint of the #1 defense year after year.

It's an interesting discussion. I'd need to watch more footage to get an accurate assessment of McHale as a pick-and-roll guy. Boston didn't run it that often. From what I've seen he's solid but he was always a little clumsy facing up and driving to the hoop.

I do think that Stockton could feed the post entry pass and hit open shots when McHale is doubled. Kevin had no problem making those passes to the strongside post-feeder.

[La Frescobaldi]

McHale playing alongside Mark Eaton would've been nasty on defense. Eaton was holding down the paint of the #1 defense year after year.

It's an interesting discussion. I'd need to watch more footage to get an accurate assessment of McHale as a pick-and-roll guy. Boston didn't run it that often. From what I've seen he's solid but he was always a little clumsy facing up and driving to the hoop.

I do think that Stockton could feed the post entry pass and hit open shots when McHale is doubled. Kevin had no problem making those passes to the strongside post-feeder.

Air drop Malone & McHale into today’s NBA and tell em it is 1986 there won’t be a player left on the floor after one quarter except them. Guys would get fouled out trying to handle them then get knocked out for crying.

[Pointguard]

McHale has always been a bit of a black hole and was actually a poor passer whereas Malone was very good. And yes we are comparing only peaks but Malone was still more durable. McHale was a better low post/iso scorer but Malone in his younger days when he peaked as a scorer gave you 29-30 ppg on +3% rTS which is nothing to sneeze at.
McHale was peakiing during the great Celtic passing teams that is still mentioned as one of the best ever - still to this day no team has averaged over 700 passes per game. There were no poor passers on those teams. You just couldn't get that flow. McHale never had a ton of assist but he wasn't a black hole or a bad passer. He was the most efficient player on the team, dam near the league, so it would make sense that he would shoot more than others outside of Bird. McHale also rarely turned the ball over, yet another great facet to his game. He really was special.

In the later years he forced it a bit more and his efficiency suffered. Maybe that's what you recalled. But Black holes don't role like the above paragraph at all.

While Malone was a good passer I just don't see him on an all-time great passing team and for good reason - there is no need to keep passing when he had an offensive advantage and energy/strength advantage on his counterpart every game and preferred to wear down the opponent.

[Pointguard]

McHale was peakiing during the great Celtic passing teams that is still mentioned as one of the best ever - still to this day no team has averaged over 700 passes per game. There were no poor passers on those teams. You just couldn't get that flow. McHale never had a ton of assist but he wasn't a black hole or a bad passer. He was the most efficient player on the team, dam near the league, so it would make sense that he would shoot more than others outside of Bird. McHale also rarely turned the ball over, yet another great facet to his game. He really was special.

In the later years he forced it a bit more and his efficiency suffered. Maybe that's what you recalled. But Black holes don't role like the above paragraph at all.

While Malone was a good passer I just don't see him on an all-time great passing team and for good reason - there is no need to keep passing when he had an offensive advantage and energy/strength advantage on his counterpart every game and preferred to wear down the opponent.
Haha, excuse that quote. They didn't pass that much but were considered the best passing team ever.

[BarberSchool]

In terms of offensive footwork? McHale.

Offensive iso/drawing double teams ? McHale.

Shot blocking ? McHale’s wingspan AF.

Post Defense ? McHale’s knees and elbows > Malone strength

Offensive versatility ? McHale.

Passing ? MF MCHALE.

Finishing thru contact ?
Malone.
Although McHale’s finishes pivoting away from contact we’re good. But Malone’s strength to finish thru centers in demonstrative fashion is a huge asset to momentum and game changing impact, and fan excitement.

Fast break play ? Not even close. Malone.

Highlight creation ? Malone dunks all day.

Rebounding ?
Both were great rebounders.
Malone was better, and more physically dominating.

A better teammate and locker room guy ?
McHale all day. Dude is a funny old stoner.

Clutch play ?
McHale

Which peak was better ?
McHale from 84-87 was ILL

Which player was better over their whole career?
Malone’s body of work & highlight reel is superior.

Who is better ?
Depends on what the team needs.

[L.Kizzle]

In terms of offensive footwork? McHale.

Offensive iso/drawing double teams ? McHale.

Shot blocking ? McHale’s wingspan AF.

Post Defense ? McHale’s knees and elbows > Malone strength

Offensive versatility ? McHale.

Passing ? MF MCHALE.

Finishing thru contact ?
Malone.
Although McHale’s finishes pivoting away from contact we’re good. But Malone’s strength to finish thru centers in demonstrative fashion is a huge asset to momentum and game changing impact, and fan excitement.

Fast break play ? Not even close. Malone.

Highlight creation ? Malone dunks all day.

Rebounding ?
Both were great rebounders.
Malone was better, and more physically dominating.

A better teammate and locker room guy ?
McHale all day. Dude is a funny old stoner.

Clutch play ?
McHale

Which peak was better ?
McHale from 84-87 was ILL

Which player was better over their whole career?
Malone’s body of work & highlight reel is superior.

Who is better ?
Depends on what the team needs.
Malone peak was a 2 time MVP and led his team to back to back Finals.
It's not CLOSE.

[La Frescobaldi]

Malone peak was a 2 time MVP and led his team to back to back Finals.
It's not CLOSE.

Malone gets zero mvps on 80s celtics. Zero possibility.

[L.Kizzle]

Malone gets zero mvps on 80s celtics. Zero possibility.
McHale gets zero with the Jazz. Malone got his MVPs in his 12th and 14th seasons. Do you know what McHale was doing in season 12 and 14. He was retired.

Malone is the most disrespected MVP ever.
Malone's peak is literally 2 MVP awards. That's means you're the most valuable players in the ENTIRE league ... twice. McHale never even made the All-NBA 1st team twice and this is a twice time MVP.

I mean, what next peak Dr J vs peak Jamal Wilkes. Come on.

[1987_Lakers]

It's funny seeing L.Kizzle being so butthurt about McHale. :lol

[La Frescobaldi]

It's funny seeing L.Kizzle being so butthurt about McHale. :lol

I know right?

Malone = greatness but those mvps never happen if he’s on any atg team

That’s just how it is.

[L.Kizzle]

It's funny seeing L.Kizzle being so butthurt about McHale. :lol
Lol. But be fo real. If these were 2 other names the guy with the obvious better everything would not be getting done like this.

I mean one guys peak is 2 MVPs and another guys peak is not 2 MVPs. Should be an open and shut case.

I mean you taking Giannis or LaMarcus Aldridge lol.

[L.Kizzle]

I know right?

Malone = greatness but those mvps never happen if he’s on any atg team

That’s just how it is.

I mean that can work for ANY player.
What if Jordan has the talent of the 85-87 Bulls his entire career and what if McGrady plays for the Spurs his entire career instead of only his final season.

We goin by what of or what happened? What happened is Malone peak is a 2 time MVP while McHale is a 2 time sixth man of the year. What a comparison lol.

[1987_Lakers]

I mean one guys peak is 2 MVPs and another guys peak is not 2 MVPs. Should be an open and shut case.

I mean you taking Giannis or LaMarcus Aldridge lol.

I guess that makes Steve Nash clearly better than Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, & Chris Paul. lol

[L.Kizzle]

I guess that makes Steve Nash clearly better than Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, & Chris Paul. lol

All those guys ran their own teams and have more than ONE All-NBA team. Nice try tho lol.

Nash started on the bench like McHale, but unlike Kevin; Steve became the leader of his teams and a 2 time MVP (like Karl Malone.)

[1987_Lakers]

All those guys ran their own teams and have more than ONE All-NBA team. Nice try tho lol.

Nash started on the bench like McHale, but unlike Kevin; Steve became the leader of his teams and a 2 time MVP (like Karl Malone.)

This thread is about PEAKS, are you really gonna take away points from McHale just because he played with Bird? And another poster already showed how McHale produced without Bird from '85-'87 and he still looked pretty damn elite...

27.8 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 2.6 APG / 0.5 SPG / 2.9 BPG on 60% FG (10.5/17.5) and 88% FT without Bird

If you want defensive versatility, unarguable scoring, & a clutch performer, go with McHale.

If you want an athletic 4 who is strong in transition, but his game usually falters coming playoff time, go with Malone

[L.Kizzle]

This thread is about PEAKS, are you really gonna take away points from McHale just because he played with Bird? And another poster already showed how McHale produced without Bird from '85-'87 and he still looked pretty damn elite...

27.8 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 2.6 APG / 0.5 SPG / 2.9 BPG on 60% FG (10.5/17.5) and 88% FT without Bird

If you want defensive versatility, unarguable scoring, & a clutch performer, go with McHale.

If you want an athletic 4 who is strong in transition, but his game usually falters coming playoff time, go with Malone
I'll take the MVP of the league and you can have the 4th best player on those 80s Celtics teams.

[1987_Lakers]

I'll take the MVP of the league and you can have the 4th best player on those 80s Celtics teams.

Enjoy choking in the playoffs.

[L.Kizzle]

Enjoy choking in the playoffs.
I f#cks wit it lol.

[Im Still Ballin]

This thread is about PEAKS, are you really gonna take away points from McHale just because he played with Bird? And another poster already showed how McHale produced without Bird from '85-'87 and he still looked pretty damn elite...

27.8 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 2.6 APG / 0.5 SPG / 2.9 BPG on 60% FG (10.5/17.5) and 88% FT without Bird

If you want defensive versatility, unarguable scoring, & a clutch performer, go with McHale.

If you want an athletic 4 who is strong in transition, but his game usually falters coming playoff time, go with Malone

Not to mention he also outscored Bird in the finals over those three consecutive seasons:



18 games over the 1985, 1986, and 1987 NBA Finals.

Bird

24.0 PPG // 9.5 RPG // 6.6 APG // 1.8 SPG // 0.7 BPG on 46% FG, 39% 3PT, 90% FT [54.48% TS]

McHale

24.1 PPG // 9.9 RPG // 1.6 APG // 0.4 SPG // 1.7 BPG on 59% FG, 78% FT [63.91% TS]

[L.Kizzle]

Not to mention he also outscored Bird in the finals over those three consecutive seasons:
Is he better than Bird?

[Im Still Ballin]

Is he better than Bird?

No, but McHale was no errand boy between those years. Was he a 2nd option/side-kick, or a 1A/1B with Bird? It's all subjective, semantic. I personally feel he was 1A/1B with the Hick from French Lick.

Outscoring Bird in one finals series could be considered a fluke, but over 18 games across three finals series? That's no fluke.

[L.Kizzle]

No, but McHale was no errand boy between those years. Was he a 2nd option/side-kick, or a 1A/1B with Bird? It's all subjective, semantic. I personally feel he was 1A/1B with the Hick from French Lick.

Outscoring Bird in one finals series could be considered a fluke, but over 18 games across three finals series? That's no fluke.
Got it, so he had a better peak than Malone AND Bird.

[1987_Lakers]

Got it, so he had a better peak than Malone AND Bird.

And Hayes

[Im Still Ballin]

Got it, so he had a better peak than Malone AND Bird.

Where did I say that? I never insinuated that he was better than Bird. Only that he was more than a sidekick.

This was a guy that gave you 26 and 10 with 2-2.5 blocks, while shooting 60% FG and 80% FT. Don't forget the All-NBA defensive 1st team and coaches DPOY level defense.

[Round Mound]

McHale is underrated among all time PFs. He is in The Top 7 All Time PFs Atleast if Not Top 5. Peak McHale was as good as Peak Malone. Ofcourse, Sir Charles in his Peak Was Better Than Any Other PF Other Than Maybe Duncan

[L.Kizzle]

Lets cut to the chase, Jeff Ruland in McHale's place the Celtics still win titles. Jeff was 22/12/4/1 All-Star on 58% shooting before he like McHale broke his foot and was never the same again.

84 playoffs. Boston vs Washington.
McHale 12/5/1 on 47%
Ruland 24/13/8 on 52%

Lol.

[1987_Lakers]

Lets cut to the chase, Jeff Ruland in McHale's place the Celtics still win titles. Jeff was 22/12/4/1 All-Star on 58% shooting before he like McHale broke his foot and was never the same again.

22 ppg on 41 mpg. LOL. Also was a turnover machine.

[L.Kizzle]

22 ppg on 41 mpg. LOL. Also was a turnover machine.
Those are called starter minutes. McHale was a bench warmer so he wouldn't know about that lol.
He knew about Jeff putting it on him in the playoffs tho. I bet he wish he was on the bench then lol.

[1987_Lakers]

Those are called starter minutes. McHale was a bench warmer so he wouldn't know about that lol.
He knew about Jeff putting it on him in the playoffs tho. I bet he wish he was on the bench then lol.

Sort of how Mark West & Kurt Rambis held Karl Malone to 44% shooting in their matchup vs Malone in the '90 playoffs. Typical Karl, always coming up short.

[L.Kizzle]

Sort of how Mark West & Kurt Rambis held Karl Malone to 44% shooting in their matchup vs Malone in the '90 playoffs. Typical Karl, always coming up short.
I just looked at game 5 stats. Malone shot 53% for 26 points and they lost by 2.
Stockton shot 27% and had 9 points. He did have 17 assist tho but damn ... if Stockton shots 44% like Malone they win that series lol.

[1987_Lakers]

I just looked at game 5 stats. Malone shot 53% for 26 points and they lost by 2.
Stockton shot 27% and had 9 points. He did have 17 assist tho but damn ... if Stockton shots 44% like Malone they win that series lol.

Maybe if Malone didn't shit the bed prior to game 5 they wouldn't have been in that situation.

[L.Kizzle]

Maybe if Malone didn't shit the bed prior to game 5 they wouldn't have been in that situation.
He was never as bad as Stockton in game 5 lol.

[dankok8]

McHale was peakiing during the great Celtic passing teams that is still mentioned as one of the best ever - still to this day no team has averaged over 700 passes per game. There were no poor passers on those teams. You just couldn't get that flow. McHale never had a ton of assist but he wasn't a black hole or a bad passer. He was the most efficient player on the team, dam near the league, so it would make sense that he would shoot more than others outside of Bird. McHale also rarely turned the ball over, yet another great facet to his game. He really was special.

In the later years he forced it a bit more and his efficiency suffered. Maybe that's what you recalled. But Black holes don't role like the above paragraph at all.

While Malone was a good passer I just don't see him on an all-time great passing team and for good reason - there is no need to keep passing when he had an offensive advantage and energy/strength advantage on his counterpart every game and preferred to wear down the opponent.

McHale was a poor passer. Even Bill Simmons said so.

Another point which no one seems to mention on here is that if the Celtics had Malone instead of McHale they almost surely win more rings. Because Malone was way more durable and his own efficiency would also skyrocket playing with Bird.

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin McHale vs Karl Malone - Head to Head

McHale best season in 1986, also Karl's rookie campaign. I don't think it was right to use rookie Karl vs Kev. So I started the very next season, Kevin's best statistical season.

1986-1987
McHale 15 and 6 on 42%
Malone 25 and 15 on 44%

McHale 33 and 7 on 80%
Malone 20 and 6 on 42%

1987-1988
McHale 20 and 13 on 64%
Malone 31 and 12 on 50%

McHale 24 and 6 on 66%
Malone 25 and 17 on 50%

2nd year Malone is already outclassing GOAT candidate, a peak Kevin McHale.

I stopped after 1988, it only gets worse.

[L.Kizzle]

The remainder of their Head to Head battles. This post will go unrecognized.


1988-1989
McHale 19 and 4 on 54%
Malone 27 and 11 on 40%

McHale 26 and 8 on 71%
Malone 36 and 11 on 56%

1989-1990
McHale 19 and 7 on 58
Malone 39 and 12 on 54%

McHale 34 and 9 on 59%
Malone 27 and 10 on 58%

1990-1991
McHale 17 and 9 on 30%
Malone 14 and 3 on 57%

McHale 20 and 10 on 40%
Malone 37 and 14 on 65%

1991-1992
McHale 18 and 8 on 57%
Malone 39 and 8 on 63%

McHale 14 and 6 on 50%
Malone 30 and 13 on 50%

1992-1993
McHale 15 and 12 on 47%
Malone 29 and 9 on 37%
(Last game head to head)

1985-1986 (Rookie Karl Malone vs All-NBA teamer Kevin McHale)
McHale 22 and 7 on 53%
Malone 17 and 9 on 53%
(First game head to head)

McHale 24 and 4 on 63%
Malone 6 and 9 on 43%
(Wow, Kevin McHale takes rookie Karl Malone to school.)

[L.Kizzle]

The remainder of their Head to Head battles. This post will go unrecognized.


1988-1989
McHale 19 and 4 on 54%
Malone 27 and 11 on 40%

McHale 26 and 8 on 71%
Malone 36 and 11 on 56%

1989-1990
McHale 19 and 7 on 58
Malone 39 and 12 on 54%

McHale 34 and 9 on 59%
Malone 27 and 10 on 58%

1990-1991
McHale 17 and 9 on 30%
Malone 14 and 3 on 57%

McHale 20 and 10 on 40%
Malone 37 and 14 on 65%

1991-1992
McHale 18 and 8 on 57%
Malone 39 and 8 on 63%

McHale 14 and 6 on 50%
Malone 30 and 13 on 50%

1992-1993
McHale 15 and 12 on 47%
Malone 29 and 9 on 37%
(Last game head to head)

1985-1986 (Rookie Karl Malone vs All-NBA teamer Kevin McHale)
McHale 22 and 7 on 53%
Malone 17 and 9 on 53%
(First game head to head)

McHale 24 and 4 on 63%
Malone 6 and 9 on 43%
(Wow, Kevin McHale takes rookie Karl Malone to school.)
First game of 1990-1991, switch their numbers around

[L.Kizzle]

Crickets ...

[Im Still Ballin]

It's hard to compare two players who are playing separate roles on their teams. Besides, it's foolish and reductive to reduce a 'player comparison' to a simple H2H matchup.

For reference, here's the entire H2H stats breakdown, consisting of 15 games that went 9-6 in McHale's/Boston's favor:


https://stathead.com/basketball/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1=mchalke01&player_id2=malonka01

Kevin McHale [34.2 MPG]: 21.1 PPG / 7.3 RPG / 2.0 APG / 0.4 SPG / 1.7 BPG / 1.9 TOPG on 57.2% FG and 88.8% FT [64.88% TS]

Karl Malone [37.1 MPG]: 27.0 PPG / 11.0 RPG / 2.4 APG / 1.9 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 2.5 TOPG on 50.3% FG and 77.4% FT [56.68% TS]


Even if we just boil everything down to a simple H2H stat comparison, I'm not seeing the "total domination" that you're talking about. One guy is playing a role within a winning team, while the other plays more minutes and takes more shots. Let's also consider that 11 of these 15 matchups occurred after McHale broke his ankle.

We'd also need to watch the footage to see what actually went down.

[L.Kizzle]

It's hard to compare two players who are playing separate roles on their teams. Besides, it's foolish and reductive to reduce a 'player comparison' to a simple H2H matchup.

For reference, here's the entire H2H stats breakdown, consisting of 15 games that went 9-6 in McHale's/Boston's favor:



Even if we just boil everything down to a simple H2H stat comparison, I'm not seeing the "total domination" that you're talking about. One guy is playing a role within a winning team, while the other plays more minutes and takes more shots. Let's also consider that 11 of these 15 matchups occurred after McHale broke his ankle.

We'd also need to watch the footage to see what actually went down.
You made the original comparison, but when I compared them head to head and McHale's numbers dont equal Malone's, you say it's hard to compare them because they play different roles. But you made the original comparison ...

[Im Still Ballin]

You made the original comparison, but when I compared them head to head and McHale's numbers dont equal Malone's, you say it's hard to compare them because they play different roles. But you made the original comparison ...

Basketball isn't a one-on-one game; using H2H stats to make your point is a reductive way to determine who was better. We're talking about an incredibly small sample size -- 15 games!

And the numbers aren't even comfortably in Malone's favor. As I said, it shows me that one guy played more of a role within his winning team, protecting the rim and being a more efficient scorer. But, obviously, you'll interpret it differently.

Come on, bruh.

And this thread is about who was better at their respective peaks. You can't use one or two games and go "ah-ha!" this proves that this player is better than the other. Every great player has off nights, even at their respective peaks. It's about looking at the cumulative bulk of work. It's about analyzing their performance and skillset with regard to role and context.

[L.Kizzle]

Basketball isn't a one-on-one game; using H2H stats to make your point is a reductive way to determine who was better. We're talking about an incredibly small sample size -- 15 games!

And the numbers aren't even comfortably in Malone's favor. As I said, it shows me that one guy played more of a role within his winning team, protecting the rim and being a more efficient scorer. But, obviously, you'll interpret it differently.

Come on, bruh.

And this thread is about who was better at their respective peaks. You can't use one or two games and go "ah-ha!" this proves that this player is better than the other. Every great player has off nights, even at their respective peaks. It's about looking at the cumulative bulk of work. It's about analyzing their performance and skillset with regard to role and context.
Are we comparing the Celtics vs Jazz or McHale vs Malone? McHale vs Malone is one on one, am I right or wrong?

Why are you comparing role player vs the man on their teams?

[La Frescobaldi]

I mean that can work for ANY player.
What if Jordan has the talent of the 85-87 Bulls his entire career and what if McGrady plays for the Spurs his entire career instead of only his final season.

We goin by what of or what happened? What happened is Malone peak is a 2 time MVP while McHale is a 2 time sixth man of the year. What a comparison lol.

No. MVP doesn’t matter in this because the job is completely different.

Karl Malone on ‘90s Bulls never wins an mvp. He doesn’t get one with any Lakers ring team - not 72, not in the ‘80s, not in the ‘00s. He isn’t getting mvp playing on 90s Rockets.
And he doesn’t get an MVP on any Celtics ring team - not 60s, not 70s, not 80s, not 00s.

Malone MVPs - Robinson, Barkley and Garnett also - are recognition of their greatness while elevating mediocre to putrid teams.
Not one of them is getting a Most Valuable Player Award in Kevin McHale’s job on the ‘80s Celtics.
Pre-injury McHale - all time great - on those Jazz, Spurs, Suns, Wolves teams has got good to great chances of getting MVP. Those teams were built around the position, specifically.

[John8204]

Sorry I can't take a guy in the 30K club over a non-top fifty player(in my eyes)