85-87 NBA Finals: Bird = 24/9.5/6.6 on 54.48% TS - McHale = 24.1/9.9/1.6 on 63.91% TS

[Im Still Ballin]

18 games over the 1985, 1986, and 1987 NBA Finals.

Bird

24.0 PPG // 9.5 RPG // 6.6 APG // 1.8 SPG // 0.7 BPG on 46% FG, 39% 3PT, 90% FT [54.48% TS]

McHale

24.1 PPG // 9.9 RPG // 1.6 APG // 0.4 SPG // 1.7 BPG on 59% FG, 78% FT [63.91% TS]

[SouBeachTalents]

1988 ECF

Bird: 20/12/6/3/2 on 45%TS
McHale: 27/7/3/2 on 63%TS

[Im Still Ballin]

1988 ECF

Bird: 20/12/6/3/2 on 45%TS
McHale: 27/7/3/2 on 63%TS

Damn.

Bird was undoubtedly the best player on the team, especially earlier in the '80s. Once Maxwell went down with an injury in 1985 McHale stepped into the starting role and never looked back. Kevin provided Larry with true 1A/1B support from 1985 to 1987.

[La Frescobaldi]

Damn.

Bird was undoubtedly the best player on the team, especially earlier in the '80s. Once Maxwell went down with an injury in 1985 McHale stepped into the starting role and never looked back. Kevin provided Larry with true 1A/1B support from 1985 to 1987.

Man I tell you, for Lakers fans or anybody else either… there was nuthin to like about those guys, not at all lol.
They were the real thing and Parrish was too. You couldn’t just ignore him because those other two guys were hot and not just because those other two guys were always hot. Parrish could eat guys up

For pure, manly basketball, both teams full throttle great, everybody on the floor moving fast, strong and smooth and not taking any guff, those mid-80s Finals are just about the pinnacle of the sport.

[Im Still Ballin]

Man I tell you, for Lakers fans or anybody else either… there was nuthin to like about those guys, not at all lol.
They were the real thing and Parrish was too. You couldn’t just ignore him because those other two guys were hot and not just because those other two guys were always hot. Parrish could eat guys up

For pure, manly basketball, both teams full throttle great, everybody on the floor moving fast, strong and smooth and not taking any guff, those mid-80s Finals are just about the pinnacle of the sport.

Those great '80s teams had that old-school mentality of working for the highest quality shot. The modern style is early offense trumps, which can lead to very ugly basketball.

[3ba11]

.
Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen..

There's never been a bigger statistical gap than MJ/Pippen, so it wasn't a duo any more than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:



PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem...... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry.......... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP................... 11.0...........3.5............. 1.2........... 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan........ 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........ 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................... 13.2.......... 9.6............. 2.1........... 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk............ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry........... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................... 4.9...........1.1............. 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

92' Jordan......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen......... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP.................... 7.1........... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan......... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen......... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................... 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............. 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan........ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................... 7.3............ 2.9............. 0.6............. 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan........ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen........ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................... 9.1........... 4.8.............. 1.0............. 0.090......,... 11.9

98' Jordan....... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen....... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP.................. 8.7........... 3.4.............. 0.8............ 0.095........... 16.4


* Everyone in history needed teammates to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas Jordan averaged 10 more than Pippen in every SERIES... (edit: Jordan averaged 4 and 8 more than Pippen in 2 series, and every other series was 10 or more).. This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so everyone else had periods without facing maximum defensive attention - these periods are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

* The Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else

* Only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals)

* Pippen was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same playoff opponent 6/6 times:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times

[Vino24]

No duo had a Pippen level defensive player so stfu

[3ba11]

No duo had a Pippen level defensive player so stfu


Hughes was #6 for DPOY in 2005, so Lebron was gifted a player that was achieving prime Pippen production on both sides of the ball (22/6/5 on offense)

Wade, Varejao, Battier, Rondo, Bradley and AD were all-defense too, so Lebron has played with FAR more good defenders

Btw, McHale was #5 for DPOY in 87', while guys like Payton won DPOY.. so Pippen's defense wasn't uncommon, but his shit offense was uncommon for a notable sidekick

[AlternativeAcc.]

No duo had a Pippen level defensive player so stfu

Pippen was a better defender, passer, rebounder and leader than Jordan by a huge margin in each category. Huge.

[3ba11]

Pippen was a better defender, passer, rebounder and leader than Jordan by a huge margin in each category. Huge.


Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career.

Furthermore, he can't assist on his own shots, and he took more shots, so his assist percentage was always much higher... So Jordan assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs (28 to 21 assist percentage), while doubling his scoring average..

No sidekick has ever been carried even remotely this much.. Pippen won 5 series against top 5 SRS teams while wetting the bed (16 on 40%), and he won 6 Finals while averaging 19.0 on 42%, including 2 Finals of 15.7 on worse efficiency than Westbrook's worst.

[La Frescobaldi]

.
Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen..

There's never been a bigger statistical gap than MJ/Pippen, so it wasn't a duo any more than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:



PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem...... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry.......... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP................... 11.0...........3.5............. 1.2........... 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan........ 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........ 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................... 13.2.......... 9.6............. 2.1........... 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk............ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry........... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................... 4.9...........1.1............. 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

92' Jordan......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen......... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP.................... 7.1........... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan......... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen......... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................... 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............. 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan........ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................... 7.3............ 2.9............. 0.6............. 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan........ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen........ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................... 9.1........... 4.8.............. 1.0............. 0.090......,... 11.9

98' Jordan....... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen....... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP.................. 8.7........... 3.4.............. 0.8............ 0.095........... 16.4


* Everyone in history needed teammates to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas Jordan averaged 10 more than Pippen in every SERIES... (edit: Jordan averaged 4 and 8 more than Pippen in 2 series, and every other series was 10 or more).. This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so everyone else had periods without facing maximum defensive attention - these periods are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

* The Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else

* Only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals)

* Pippen was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same playoff opponent 6/6 times:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times

The greatest thing of all about Bird & McHale was this.

Every single day for years they laughed straight in Mike’s face while squashing him like a bug on every court from Bangkok to Bangor.

[ShawkFactory]

It took 6 posts for a Bird and McHale thread to turn into a Jordan/Pippen one. Congrats.

[SouBeachTalents]

It took 6 posts for a Bird and McHale thread to turn into a Jordan/Pippen one. Congrats.
Would've been the first post had he seen the thread sooner.

[La Frescobaldi]

It took 6 posts for a Bird and McHale thread to turn into a Jordan/Pippen one. Congrats.

Exactly.

So on point: McHale & Bird mopped the floor with red jerseys. For years on end.

[SouBeachTalents]

Exactly.

So on point: McHale & Bird mopped the floor with red jerseys. For years on end.
Yep, this was a great breakdown on Bird & Jordan's h2h matchups before Bird's injury.


I mean just look at the '87-'88 stretch where they matched up 10 times in the season and once in the playoffs. Both were healthy and MVP caliber players so no excuses for either player...


11/14/86
Bird - 37/10/5 (13/25 shooting)
Jordan - 48/5/1 (17/33 shooting)

Celtics win, I'd say it's a wash though.

01/02/87
Bird - 37/8/9 (61.1%)
Jordan - 34/8/3 (41.9%)

Celtics win, Bird easily wins the matchup. Highlights of the game here:


27/01/87
Bird - 24/14/3 (39%)
Jordan - 30/6/4 (38%)

Celtics win. Wash.

28/01/87
Bird - 26/5/9 (65%)
Jordan - 27/4/4 (48%)
Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

27/03/87
Bird - 41/7/7 (58.6%)
Jordan - 22/7/7 (39.1%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.


17/04/87
Bird - 38/8/7 (59%)
Jordan - 17/4/8 (33%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup.

12/01/88
Bird - 38/9/8 (58%)
Jordan - 42/4/6 (53%)

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup.

18/03/88
Bird - 19/10/6
Jordan - 50/9/5

Bulls win. Jordan finally wins head to head.

20/03/88
Bird - 33/7/8 (67%)
Jordan - 26/4/7 (56%)

Celtics win. Bird easily wins matchup. Highlights:


21/04/88
Bird - 44/10/3 (65.5%)
Jordan - 39/3/8 (51.5%)

Celtics win. Bird wins matchup *yawn*


Bird's record in this stretch? 9-1 while outperforming him in nearly every game. What makes this worse? Bird made Jordan look like a child when Jordan tried to guard him. Meanwhile the possessions I saw Bird guard Jordan, he defended him quite well (definitly wasn't gambling for steals to leave him open in the post).

[Phoenix]

It took 6 posts for a Bird and McHale thread to turn into a Jordan/Pippen one. Congrats.

3ball's off his game today, usually he'd have hijacked it by the third post.

[L.Kizzle]

1987-1989 Finals

James Worthy - 23/7/4 on 50%fg and 54% TS (88 Finals MVP)
Magic Johnson- 23/7/13 on 55%fg and 63% TS (87 Finals MVP)

[Im Still Ballin]

1987-1989 Finals

James Worthy - 23/7/4 on 50%fg and 54% TS (88 Finals MVP)
Magic Johnson- 23/7/13 on 55%fg and 63% TS (87 Finals MVP)

Impressive efficiency from Magic.

[jlip]

1987-1989 Finals

James Worthy - 23/7/4 on 50%fg and 54% TS (88 Finals MVP)
Magic Johnson- 23/7/13 on 55%fg and 63% TS (87 Finals MVP)

I get what you're doing, but I believe it's a little unfair to include the '89 Finals in this. Magic essentially missed half the series, by missing the 4th quarter of Game 2 and only playing five minutes in game 3 due to injury. His averages were negatively impacted by that while Worthy's were enhanced by having to pick up the scoring load in Magic's absence. The overall statistical gap between Magic and Worthy would more than likely have been greater without these circumstances.

[La Frescobaldi]

I get what you're doing, but I believe it's a little unfair to include the '89 Finals in this. Magic essentially missed half the series, by missing the 4th quarter of Game 2 and only playing five minutes in game 3 due to injury. His averages were negatively impacted by that while Worthy's were enhanced by having to pick up the scoring load in Magic's absence. The overall statistical gap between Magic and Worthy would more than likely have been greater without these circumstances.

Those two running fast breaks scorched the dang court had to refinish the floor from getting burnt to the bricks

[L.Kizzle]

I get what you're doing, but I believe it's a little unfair to include the '89 Finals in this. Magic essentially missed half the series, by missing the 4th quarter of Game 2 and only playing five minutes in game 3 due to injury. His averages were negatively impacted by that while Worthy's were enhanced by having to pick up the scoring load in Magic's absence. The overall statistical gap between Magic and Worthy would more than likely have been greater without these circumstances.
I didn't include Magic 89 stats.

[Im Still Ballin]

bump!