If Lebron is good at assists, why does he field low-assist teams?

[3ba11]

Why is the common thread in his Finals losses massive deficits in team assists?

I thought the logic was that Lebron is good at assists because he averages 1-2 more than Jordan by being the biggest ball-dominator in history and #1 in turnovers?? (longest hold-time ever in the Finals)..

So if that logic doesn't explain why Lebron is good at assists, then what does?

The reality is that Jordan became the goat scorer and usage leader by playing off-ball, but also dominating the ball a lot - it was 50/50 - yet he gets no credit for his low turnovers.. His turnover rate shows that he was on another level handling the basketball and when you watch his live dribbling from 88-93', you notice that he had a 2022 handle 30 years ago - his natural athletic talent allowed it because it wasn't practiced or planned.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron is an outstanding passer

[GrayGoat]

LeBron>>MJ

[Real Men Wear Green]

Because God hates you.

[3ba11]

Lebron is an outstanding passer


He's #1 all-time in turnovers and fields low assist teams, while only averaging about 7 assists for his career (bad for a ball-dominator), so no...

He's a vastly overrated passer who is nowhere near other ball-dominators like CP3, Nash or Mark Jackson for that matter, let alone guys like Bird or MJ who could get elite assist levels without dominating the ball..

If you can't get 10 assists without bringing the ball up court and playing a point guard role, then you aren't on Jordan's level as a passer.

Only Jordan could average 10 assists without bringing the ball up or playing PG - see the 1991 Finals - it's the only time that was ever done

So Lebron is inferior passer to Jordan by virtue of his ridiculous turnover rate despite less shot volume or usage, and also low team assists... And also only getting 7 apg (bad for a ball-dominator)

There's a reason Lebron fields underwhelming teams regardless of cast and it isn't because he plays a good brand of ball

[ShawkFactory]

He's #1 all-time in turnovers and fields low assist teams, while only averaging about 7 assists for his career (bad for a ball-dominator), so no...

He's a vastly overrated passer who is nowhere near other ball-dominators like CP3, Nash or Mark Jackson for that matter, let alone guys like Bird or MJ who could get elite assist levels without dominating the ball..

If you can't get 10 assists without bringing the ball up court and playing a point guard role, then you aren't on Jordan's level as a passer.

Only Jordan could average 10 assists without bringing the ball up or playing PG - see the 1991 Finals - it's the only time that was ever done

So Lebron is inferior passer to Jordan by virtue of his ridiculous turnover rate despite less shot volume or usage, and also low team assists... And also only getting 7 apg (bad for a ball-dominator)

There's a reason Lebron fields underwhelming teams regardless of cast and it isn't because he plays a good brand of ball

Ummm..ok? He’s an outstanding passer.

[3ba11]

Ummm..ok? He’s an outstanding passer.


No..

"outstanding" is a an overrating for the turnover kingpin and a massive ball-dominator that only averages 7 apg and has underachieving team offenses, including low team assists

He'd be "outstanding" for karl malone or any big, lumbering player... But not compared to actual outstanding passers that average 10 apg or 6+ without dominating the ball

[ShawkFactory]

No..

"outstanding" is a an overrating for the turnover kingpin and a massive ball-dominator that only averages 7 apg and has underachieving team offenses, including low team assists

There's a reason Lebron fields underwhelming teams regardless of cast and it isn't because he plays a good brand of ball

He'd be "outstanding" for karl malone or any big, lumbering player... But not compared to actual outstanding passers that average 10 apg or 6+ without dominating the ball

You have a really narrow-minded view of basketball. Which is funny because you're a pompous weirdo.

Like you completely didn't understand the 2021 rules changes and just don't seem to understand things in general now. Do you get 90s ball and the way Jordan played? Sure. But whatever.

[3ba11]

You have a really narrow-minded view of basketball. Which is funny because you're a pompous weirdo.

Like you completely didn't understand the 2021 rules changes and just don't seem to understand things in general now. Do you get 90s ball and the way Jordan played? Sure. But whatever.


You're the one that thinks a turnover kingpin that only averages 7 assists in the playoffs as a massive ball-dominator with underachieving offenses and low team assists... is an "outstanding" passer... Newsflash: you're fully-grown and don't have to lap up the manufactured, WWE narratives put forth by the mainstream media dummies.

For example, Curry and Kyrie have a rivalry and Kyrie gets up to play Curry - so I was interested in that game recently because of that truthful narrative.. But I had to commentate the narrative in my own head because the media ignores Kyrie's historic title in 2016 when he destroyed the only unanimous MVP ever.

Ultimately, how can Lebron be a smart player when he always loses to superior brands and never had the best brand or offense himself?.. he never had the good brand that blew anyone away in the Finals and only eeked out a few close Finals via superior talent.. His talent-based strategy (all-star team strategy) yields perennial underdogs that barely meet the expectation (4/10)... That isn't smart

[SATAN]

Mikey was facing dementia patients in his hey day :oldlol:

https://www.blogdebasket.com/files/michael-jordan-tom-mcmillen.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DaRXCzKW4AEcmFF.jpg:large
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/tom-mcmillen-of-the-washington-bullets-poses-for-this-portrait-circa-picture-id494770144?s=612x612

:oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

You're the one that thinks a turnover kingpin that only averages 7 assists in the playoffs as a massive ball-dominator with underachieving offenses and low team assists... is an "outstanding" passer... Newsflash: you're fully-grown and don't have to lap up the manufactured, WWE narratives put forth by the mainstream media dummies.

For example, Curry and Kyrie have a rivalry and Kyrie gets up to play Curry - so I was interested in that game recently because of that truthful narrative.. But I had to commentate the narrative in my own head because the media ignores Kyrie's historic title in 2016 when he destroyed the only unanimous MVP ever.

Ultimately, how can Lebron be a smart player when he always loses to superior brands and never had the best brand or offense himself?.. he never had the good brand that blew anyone away in the Finals and only eeked out a few close Finals via superior talent.. His talent-based strategy (all-star team strategy) yields perennial underdogs that barely meet the expectation (4/10)... That isn't smart

Well yea..it's just a fact. Kind of like if you see someone hit multiple 470 foot home runs you're allowed to say that that person is a powerful hitter. Regardless of what the season totals are.

The relevancy is the tools not..whatever it is you're talking about. I mean Kobe himself said that Lebron is one of the best passers he's ever seen. And Kobe didn't strike me as the type to just say shit.

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8tnELrsoeU&t=458s

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe's wrong just like everyone else because his opinion (and yours) fly in the face of the facts and stats

Lebron makes the same passes that any decent passer makes but simply gets more credit because he's built like Karl Malone (6'9 elite athlete) - this is unprecedented athletic talent that you guys are conflating with high IQ basketball.. Being able to dribble and pass that's comparable to Isiah Thomas, while being built like Karl is athletic talent that you guys are conflating with high IQ.

Good passing and smart passing aren't the same thing.. Lebron is a smarter passer than Westbrook, but he isn't on Bird's level - he only gets the goat Bird passing treatment because people are conflating/amazed by his physical talent.

Since we're posting clips, here's Gottlieb schooling Nick Wright on this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b3tpoM8iEeg&t=05m03s

So the guy who condescends everyone because he "played ball" and thus everyone else has no idea what they're talking about is now saying that the guy who is #2 on his list of greatest players to ever play is wrong. Because he just hates Lebron too damn much.

:oldlol:

[3ba11]

.

Well yea..it's just a fact. Kind of like if you see someone hit multiple 470 foot home runs you're allowed to say that that person is a powerful hitter. Regardless of what the season totals are.

The relevancy is the tools not..whatever it is you're talking about. I mean Kobe himself said that Lebron is one of the best passers he's ever seen. And Kobe didn't strike me as the type to just say shit.

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8tnELrsoeU&t=458s


You don't think Jordan made all those same passes but without needing anywhere NEAR the setup time?.. You post that video as if MJ hadn't made better passes

Lebron makes the same passes that any decent passer makes but simply gets more credit because he's built like Karl Malone (6'9 elite athlete) - this is unprecedented athletic talent that you guys are conflating with high IQ basketball.. Being able to dribble and pass that's comparable to Isiah Thomas, while being built like Karl is athletic talent that you guys are conflating with high IQ.

Good passing and smart passing aren't the same thing.. Lebron is a smarter passer than Westbrook, but he isn't on Bird's level - he only gets the goat Bird passing treatment because people are conflating/amazed by his physical talent.

Since we're posting clips, here's Gottlieb schooling Nick Wright on this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b3tpoM8iEeg&t=05m03s


Again, Lebron is a decent passer but only averages 7 apg in playoffs as a massive ball-dominator (not elite), while fielding low assist teams and underachieving offenses... And he's the turnover goat

[ShawkFactory]

.



You don't think Jordan made all those same passes but without needing anywhere NEAR the setup time?.. You post that video as if MJ hadn't made better passes

Lebron makes the same passes that any decent passer makes but simply gets more credit because he's built like Karl Malone (6'9 elite athlete) - this is unprecedented athletic talent that you guys are conflating with high IQ basketball.. Being able to dribble and pass that's comparable to Isiah Thomas, while being built like Karl is athletic talent that you guys are conflating with high IQ.

Good passing and smart passing aren't the same thing.. Lebron is a smarter passer than Westbrook, but he isn't on Bird's level - he only gets the goat Bird passing treatment because people are conflating/amazed by his physical talent.

Since we're posting clips, here's Gottlieb schooling Nick Wright on this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b3tpoM8iEeg&t=05m03s


Again, Lebron is a decent passer but only averages 7 apg in playoffs as a massive ball-dominator (not elite), while fielding low assist teams and underachieving offenses... And he's the turnover goat

The video I posted (and my point in general) has nothing to do with MJ. My statement was that Lebron is an outstanding passer. Which is true.

Peep that video though. Most are immediate reaction passes.

This is another case of you having a theory but not being able to apply it to real life.

[SouBeachTalents]

So the guy who condescends everyone because he "played ball" and thus everyone else has no idea what they're talking about is now saying that the guy who is #2 on his list of greatest players to ever play is wrong. Because he just hates Lebron too damn much.

:oldlol:
Lmao, got him before he deleted the post too :lol

But yeah, at this point it's like trying to argue with a QAnon supporter. He's so dug into his beliefs that no logic or common sense is going to convince him otherwise.

[3ba11]

The video I posted (and my point in general) has nothing to do with MJ. My statement was that Lebron is an outstanding passer. Which is true.

Peep that video though. Most are immediate reaction passes.

This is another case of you having a theory but not being able to apply it to real life.


Lebron has the longest hold-time in history

The fact that you think I should be convinced that he's infact a fast passer is absurd..

Doncic, Jokic, Ball, CP3... Tons of guys are better passers than Lebron.. D Murray, Harden, and even Lowry are comparable passers..

Lebron is an overrated passer - that's an obvious fact that can be demonstrated any number of ways (turnovers, apg, team assists, team offense... or brand of ball/cast/winning compared to peers)

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron has the longest hold-time in history

The fact that you think I should be convinced that he's infact a fast passer is absurd..

Doncic, Jokic, Ball, CP3... Tons of guys are better passers than Lebron.. D Murray, Harden, and even Lowry are comparable passers..

Lebron is an overrated passer - that's an obvious fact that can be demonstrated any number of ways (turnovers, apg, team assists, team offense, or brand of ball/cast/winning compared to peers)

You're such a lying, post-deleting, tiny little baby bitch :lol

Just for the record though, if you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel of your (obviously limited) knowledge of current basketball players to find people who are comparable passers to Lebron...that means he's an outstanding passer. Literally by definition.

[StrongLurk]

OP needs a shrink badly. Even the other Lebron haters on this site mostly keep their distance from OP.

[MadDog]

Jordan averaged 11 assists per game in the 1991 finals. Doing that in the triangle, en-route to a chip, was very impressive. With regards to LeBron, I think he just holds onto the ball too long. Obviously there's more to his losses than that (like his teams defense, injuries etc), but LeBron's time of possession numbers are still pretty high.

Time of possession is a MUCH better stat than usage percentage - which really tells you nothing.

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan averaged 11 assists per game in the 1991 finals. Doing that in the triangle, en-route to a chip, was very impressive. With regards to LeBron, I think he just holds onto the ball too long. Obviously there's more to his losses than that (like his teams defense, injuries etc), but LeBron's time of possession numbers are still pretty high.

Time of possession is a MUCH better stat than usage percentage - which really tells you nothing.

He holds on to the ball longer than most because he has always been his team's point guard. His court vision has always been extraordinary so why not take advantage of that skill?

That's like telling Magic Johnson, "Hey, you need to stop holding the ball for so long, we need you to move more without the ball and let the game come to you". If you told Magic that you would be slapped in the face and be looked at as an idiot.

[MadDog]

He holds on to the ball longer than most because he has always been his team's point guard. His court vision has always been extraordinary so why not take advantage of that skill?

That's like telling Magic Johnson, "Hey, we need to stop with you holding the ball for so long, we need you to move more without the ball and let the game come to you". If you told Magic that you would be slapped in the face and be looked at as an idiot.

He hasn't always played point for his teams. He holds onto the ball like one, sure, but there is literally another pointguard beside him. Your Magic example isn't a good one.

[1987_Lakers]

He hasn't always played point for his teams. He holds onto the ball like one, sure, but there is literally another pointguard beside him. Your Magic example isn't a good one.

You're telling me Chalmers, Kyrie, KCP, & Mo Williams are legit point guards who get others involved? lol

[MadDog]

You're telling me Chalmers, Kyrie, KCP, & Mo Williams are legit point guards who get others involved? lol

I'm telling you they literally started at pointguard. Ditto with Russell Westbrook.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm telling you they literally started at pointguard. Ditto with Russell Westbrook.

I wasn't aware they were point guards who had the ability to facilitate.

[MadDog]

I wasn't aware they were point guards who had the ability to facilitate.

Were you living under a rock? :confusedshrug: Westbrook's had 5 seasons averaging 10 assists.

[1987_Lakers]

Were you living under a rock? :confusedshrug: Westbrook's had 5 seasons averaging 10 assists.

How can you possibly use Westbrook as an example given the way he has played this year. Lol, if anything he has proven that Lakers need more Bron ball, anything to get the ball away from Russ.

[MadDog]

How can you possibly use Westbrook as an example given the way he has played this year. Lol, if anything he has proven that Lakers need more Bron ball, anything to get the ball away from Russ.

Now you're strawmanning. I never claimed Westbrook was a better or equal facilitator. You said you "weren't aware" they (Westbrook) could facilitate. Objectively he can. Moreover, unlike Magic, LeBron has other starters on his team playing point. Your Magic Johnson example is still moot.

[AirBonner]

Now you're strawmanning. I never claimed Westbrook was a better or equal facilitator. You said you "weren't aware" they (Westbrook) could facilitate. Objectively he has. Moreoever, unlike Magic, LeBron has other starters playing point on his team. Apples and oranges.

Log in to your 3ball account

[MadDog]

Log in to your 3ball account

:biggums:

[3ba11]

he's an outstanding passer. Literally by definition.





CP3 is outstanding... Or Nash, Magic, Stockton... Or Bird

Lebron is comparable to Kyle Lowry or Harden (not outstanding)

But regardless of our subjective opinions of "outstanding", Lebron is an overrated passer - that's an obvious fact that can be demonstrated any number of ways (turnovers, apg, team assists, team offense..... or brand of ball/cast/winning compared to peers)

[1987_Lakers]

Now you're strawmanning. I never claimed Westbrook was a better or equal facilitator. You said you "weren't aware" they (Westbrook) could facilitate. Objectively he can. Moreover, unlike Magic, LeBron has other starters on his team playing point. Your Magic Johnson example is still moot.

So you're telling me the Lakers should give Russell the ball more to negate LeBron ball? If not, why bring even bring him up? :oldlol:

[3ba11]

How can you possibly use Westbrook as an example given the way he has played this year. Lol, if anything he has proven that Lakers need more Bron ball, anything to get the ball away from Russ.


Lebron needs far more playmaking help than MJ:



Career APG

Westbrook..... 8.6
Rondo............ 8.0
Kyrie.............. 5.7
Wade............. 5.4
Jordan........... 5.3
Pippen........... 5.2


If you guys think that Pippen's mid-tier playmaking of 5 apg helped Jordan, then what would an elite passer like Stockton or Payton do?

If the Bulls needed more than 7 apg, Jordan was the only elite playmaking option to achieve that..

Jordan averaged 10 assists in various series and averaged 30/9/11 at point guard for 25 games in 89' - the press said he was already a better PG than Magic and Stockton after just 10 games at the new position (https://www.google.com/search?q=mj+point+guard&oq=mj+point+g&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0i512l2j0i22i30j69i60.4119j1j4&client=ms-android-americamovil-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)..

Ringer com documented Jordan's point guard experience and how MJ was a 30/10/10 point guard 30 years before Luka, Westbrook and company made it standard (article here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499374-Ringer-com-MJ-was-30-yrs-ahead-of-time-as-30-10-10-PG-like-Westbrook-Luka-etc)




How can you possibly use Westbrook as an example given the way he has played this year. Lol, if anything he has proven that Lakers need more Bron ball, anything to get the ball away from Russ.


Why didn't Duncan need Lebron to make all the plays?.. Why didn't the Warriors or Mavs need Lebron to make all the plays?.. They had far better offenses without Lebron.. Coaches are simply forced to play Lebron as a 2nd point guard on the floor because that's the only way he can play - but it's inherently suboptimal and yields inferior offenses, teammate fits and teams (or team ceilings/Finals records).

Otoh, guys like Bird, MJ or Curry are fundamentally-sound, (complete with elite jumpshooting skill), so coaches can implement a good brand of ball - but if they weren't fundamentally-sound and dominated the ball instead, coaches would have to play "Curry-ball" or "Bird-ball" then start over with a good brand when they're out of the lineup.




How can you possibly use Westbrook as an example given the way he has played this year. Lol, if anything he has proven that Lakers need more Bron ball, anything to get the ball away from Russ.


People don't realize that MJ didn't just beat the Pistons - he ended their physical brand from ever being competitive again by developing a BETTER brand based on perimeter finesse and ball movement.

So teams win organically by developing a better brand of ball than their peers (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls), whereas Lebron is a talent-based winner (all-star game strategy).

He simply never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles or employ the good brand of basketball.. Since he can't elevate teammates or develop brand, he can't win organically and must team-hop (talent-based winning).

[MadDog]

So you're telling me the Lakers should give Russell the ball more to negate LeBron ball? If not, why bring even bring him up? :oldlol:

I'm telling you that Russell Westbrook could facilitate. Something you thought he couldn't do lol. You originally claimed LeBron plays pointguard - but for the majority of his career, he's started beside another pointguard.

[ShawkFactory]

CP3 is outstanding... Or Nash, Magic, Stockton... Or Bird

Lebron is comparable to Kyle Lowry or Harden (not outstanding)

But regardless of our subjective opinions of "outstanding", Lebron is an overrated passer - that's an obvious fact that can be demonstrated any number of ways (turnovers, apg, team assists, team offense..... or brand of ball/cast/winning compared to peers)

Peep that vid bro.

Most are quick-twitch passes that your narrative despises.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm telling you that Russell Westbrook could facilitate. Something you thought he couldn't do. You originally said LeBron plays pointguard for his team- but for the majority of his career, he's started beside another pointguard.

And the point guards that have started besides him were not true point guards. That's like calling Derek Fisher a true point guard, we all know he couldn't run an offense. I don't know how someone who has watched LeBron's whole career can come out and say he wasn't the PG for the team. He has always been his team's main facilitator and scorer, that's what makes him unique.

[MadDog]

And the point guards that have started besides him were not true point guards. That's like calling Derek Fisher a true point guard, we all know he couldn't run an offense. I don't know how someone who has watched LeBron's whole career can come out and say he wasn't the PG for the team. He has always been his team's main facilitator and scorer, that's what makes him unique.

Just so we're clear. You're saying Westbrook and Irving can't facilitate or run an offense. If so, I don't know what to tell you. :confusedshrug: Maybe basketball isn't your sport.

[3ba11]

Peep that vid bro.

Most a quick-twitch passes that your narrative despises.


The eye test and stats (time of possession) show that no one in history takes longer to get assists..

only a couple other guys like Luka, Westbrook or Harden are on Lebron's level of slow passing but Lebron is easily the slowest of the bunch.

And Kyle Lowry's greatest passes are just as good or better than Lebron's, but Lebron's physical talent (doing as 6'9" elite athlete) makes you and everyone overrate his passing.

So again, Lebron is a vastly overrated passer by virtue of low apg for a ball-dominator, goat turnover kingpin, low team assists, underachieving team offense..... or his casts routinely underachieving their expectation (he wins much less than expected throughout his career, aka overrated)

[ShawkFactory]

The eye test and stats (time of possession) show that no one in history takes longer to get assists..

only a couple other guys like Luka, Westbrook or Harden are on Lebron's level of slow passing but Lebron is easily the slowest of the bunch.

And Kyle Lowry's greatest passes are just as good or better than Lebron's, but Lebron's physical talent (doing as 6'9" elite athlete) makes you and everyone overrate his passing.

So again, Lebron is a vastly overrated passer by virtue of low apg for a ball-dominator, goat turnover kingpin, low team assists, underachieving team offense..... or his casts routinely underachieving their expectation.

Yours is mad warped bro

[1987_Lakers]

Just so we're clear. You're saying Westbrook and Irving can't facilitate or run an offense. If so, I don't know what to tell you. :confusedshrug: Maybe basketball isn't your sport.

Not at the level of LeBron, so why take the ball away from him? :confusedshrug:

Kyrie sure as hell didn't transform the Celtics offense when he got there, he was a selfish player who lacked leadership skills. And we all know Russ running an offense is pure disaster, he is probably the worst decision maker in NBA history or up there at least.

[3ba11]

Yours is mad warped bro


Anyone can play the cherry-pick game and find some quick passes in a 20 year career

For every quick dime that you unearth, I'll find 5 long assists

This isn't 2013.. The cherry-pick game don't work no more

It's common knowledge that Lebron is a slow passer that takes forever to get an assist

PROOF: low apg for a ball-dominator... longest hold-time ever... goat turnover kingpin... low team assists, underachieving team offense..... his casts routinely underachieving their expectation....

So lebron is a vastly overrated passer and infact bad at assists - all the facts show that.. only your delusional opinion and cherry-picking says otherwise

[3ba11]

so why take the ball away from him? :confusedshrug:





Answered pretty comprehensively in post #32 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501686-If-Lebron-is-good-at-assists-why-does-he-field-low-assist-teams&p=14532883&viewfull=1#post14532883)

[MadDog]

Not at the level of LeBron, so why take the ball away from him? :confusedshrug:

Kyrie sure as hell didn't transform the Celtics offense when he got there, he was a selfish player who lacked leadership skills. And we all know Russ running an offense is pure disaster, he is probably the worst decision maker in NBA history or up there at least.

Then what's the reason (no pun) of them playing it alongside him? LeBron is clearly "better" according to you, so why share that role? Magic never had that issue.

And why bring in Russell Westbrook? LeBron cosigned for a pointguard who takes the ball away from him :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

Anyone can play the cherry-pick game and find some quick passes in a 20 year career

For every quick dime that you unearth, I'll find 5 long assists

This isn't 2013.. The cherry-pick game don't work no more

It's common knowledge that Lebron is a slow passer that takes forever to get an assist

PROOF: low apg for a ball-dominator... longest hold-time ever... goat turnover kingpin... low team assists, underachieving team offense..... his casts routinely underachieving their expectation....

So lebron is a vastly overrated passer and infact bad at assists - all the facts show that.. only your delusional opinion and cherry-picking says otherwise

Dude that’s all you do. Ye ole gif master :lol

But anyway..the video shows that Lebron has massive skills as a passer.

I’ll listen to Kobe. And I just have eyes and can see that he’s a great passer.

[1987_Lakers]

Then what's the reason (no pun) of them playing it alongside him? LeBron is clearly "better" according to you, so why share that role? Magic never had that issue.

And why bring in Russell Westbrook? LeBron cosigned for a pointguard who takes the ball away from him :oldlol:

Kyrie was more of a scorer in Cleveland, not really a PG, we all know it was LeBron who ran that offense.

For all the shit 3ball talks about LeBron limiting his teammates, both Kyrie & AD sure looked good playing alongside LeBron, and both haven't done much without him.

[3ba11]

so why take the ball away from him? :confusedshrug:





Ball-domination gets crappy looks for teammates compared to ball movement, so coaches don't want to play a ball-dominant strategy but that's the only way Lebron can play.

So coaches are forced to run the inferior Lebron-ball offenses and get blown away by better brands of ball.






so why take the ball away from him? :confusedshrug:





People don't realize that MJ didn't just beat the Pistons - he ended their physical brand from ever being competitive again by developing a BETTER brand based on perimeter finesse and ball movement.

So teams win organically by developing a better brand of ball than their peers (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls), whereas Lebron is a talent-based winner (all-star game strategy).

Unfortunately, Lebron never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles or employ a good brand of basketball.. Since he can't elevate teammates or develop brand, he can't win organically and must team-hop (talent-based winning).






so why take the ball away from him? :confusedshrug:





Why didn't Duncan need Lebron to make all the plays?.. Why didn't the Warriors or Mavs need Lebron to make all the plays?.. They had far better offenses without Lebron.. Coaches are simply forced to play Lebron as a 2nd point guard on the floor because that's the only way he can play - but it's inherently suboptimal and yields inferior offenses, teammate fits and teams (or team ceilings/Finals records).

Otoh, guys like Bird, MJ or Curry are fundamentally-sound, (complete with elite jumpshooting skill), so coaches can implement a good brand of ball - but if they weren't fundamentally-sound and dominated the ball instead, coaches would have to play "Curry-ball" or "Bird-ball" then start over with a good brand when they're out of the lineup.

[MadDog]

Kyrie was more of a scorer in Cleveland, not really a PG, we all know it was LeBron who ran that offense.

For all the shit 3ball talks about LeBron limiting his teammates, both Kyrie & AD sure looked good playing alongside LeBron, and both haven't done much without him.

Kyrie was more of a scorer, but still ran point. If what you're saying was true, Westbrook wouldn't have been signed. AD's also looked great without LeBron - your argument is like saying 2011 LeBron didn't do much before Wade lol

[1987_Lakers]

Kyrie was more of a scorer, but still ran point. If what you're saying was true, Westbrook wouldn't have been signed. AD's also looked great without LeBron - your argument is like saying 2011 LeBron didn't do much before Wade lol

He was only listed as a PG, nobody who watched those games would say Kyrie was the one who facilitated the offense, that was LeBron.

[3ba11]

Kyrie was more of a scorer in Cleveland, not really a PG, we all know it was LeBron who ran that offense.

For all the shit 3ball talks about LeBron limiting his teammates, both Kyrie & AD sure looked good playing alongside LeBron, and both haven't done much without him.


The only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron is elite shooters like Mo or Kyrie.....

Or a forward like AD that can make lebron the "Pippen" (lower producer)

:confusedshrug:

It's a testament to the suboptimal nature of Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance that so few player-types fit alongside him.. Wide swathes of players crater alongside him like spotty-shooting ball-handlers (Wade, Westbrook, Hughes, Ingram) or scoring forwards (Love, Bosh, Jamison, Kuzma).

So there's 4 guys that crater alongside Lebron for every 1 that doesn't.

The problem is that Lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time).. These 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups - lower teammate assists equals low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

Ultimately, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance creates a 1-playmaker team that invariably loses to 5 playmaker teams (ball movement and high assist teams)

[MadDog]

He was only listed as a PG, nobody who watched those games would say Kyrie was the one who facilitated the offense, that was LeBron.

Kyrie was listed at pointguard, and clearly played that position. That's a fact whether you like it or not.


I’ve always said he can’t just come down and control the game with his passing like Jason Kidd or Magic Johnson or something like that,” Lue said. “He has to look to score, and then when he gets into the paint, that’s when his passing opens up.” -Ty Lue in 2017

Again, if what you're saying were true, Kyrie's coach wouldn't have compared him to other pointguards.

[tpols]

The eye test and stats (time of possession) show that no one in history takes longer to get assists..

only a couple other guys like Luka, Westbrook or Harden are on Lebron's level of slow passing but Lebron is easily the slowest of the bunch.

And Kyle Lowry's greatest passes are just as good or better than Lebron's, but Lebron's physical talent (doing as 6'9" elite athlete) makes you and everyone overrate his passing.

So again, Lebron is a vastly overrated passer by virtue of low apg for a ball-dominator, goat turnover kingpin, low team assists, underachieving team offense..... or his casts routinely underachieving their expectation (he wins much less than expected throughout his career, aka overrated)

I like to think in football analogies. LeBron is like a QB who has all day to throw and still throws 50% less TDs than the best QB. (ie magic and Stockton averaged 50% more dimes with similar hold time)

So he's basically cam newton. Cam Newton was pretty good but he just doesn't compare to the Peyton mannings of the NFL. If someone said cam newton = Peyton manning or Dan Marino or something they'd be looked at like they had 8 heads.

[HoopsNY]

I like to think in football analogies. LeBron is like a QB who has all day to throw and still throws 50% less TDs than the best QB. (ie magic and Stockton averaged 50% more dimes with similar hold time)

So he's basically cam newton. Cam Newton was pretty good but he just doesn't compare to the Peyton mannings of the NFL. If someone said cam newton = Peyton manning or Dan Marino or something they'd be looked at like they had 8 heads.

Not a fair comparison. You're not accounting for the fact that LeBron provides 27 PPG, which is amongst the greatest of all-time, throughout his career. So while Magic and Stockton were providing elite assist numbers, LeBron is providing much better scoring which skews the data a little bit.

[ShawkFactory]

I like to think in football analogies. LeBron is like a QB who has all day to throw and still throws 50% less TDs than the best QB. (ie magic and Stockton averaged 50% more dimes with similar hold time)

So he's basically cam newton. Cam Newton was pretty good but he just doesn't compare to the Peyton mannings of the NFL. If someone said cam newton = Peyton manning or Dan Marino or something they'd be looked at like they had 8 heads.

This is such a stupid post :lol

I mean I appreciate the troll effort. But you aren’t great at it.

[3ba11]

Not a fair comparison. You're not accounting for the fact that LeBron provides 27 PPG, which is amongst the greatest of all-time, throughout his career. So while Magic and Stockton were providing elite assist numbers, LeBron is providing much better scoring which skews the data a little bit.


Lebron's spotty-shooting, ball-dominant skillset prevents him from employing the best strategy of ball movement and high assist teams.

So he loses to teams that do these things and his suboptimal brand of basketball needs more help than literally anyone in the league - the story for 20 years is how Lebron's teams need more help - he had the neediest teams in history because his brand of ball is inferior (low assist teams.. frontcourt ball-dominance... marginalizes most teammates.. etc, etc)

[tpols]

Not a fair comparison. You're not accounting for the fact that LeBron provides 27 PPG, which is amongst the greatest of all-time, throughout his career. So while Magic and Stockton were providing elite assist numbers, LeBron is providing much better scoring which skews the data a little bit.

That's exactly why he's cam newton. Cam ran many TDs in by himself. He was the QB, yet way more often tried to score on his own. Where as all true elite QBs dominated by setting up teammates aka throwing and diming. You just proved the point. Its like comparing lamar jackson to Aaron Rodgers or drew brees.

[MadDog]

That's exactly why he's cam newton. Cam ran many TDs in by himself. He was the QB, yet way more often tried to score on his own. Where as all true elite QBs dominated by setting up teammates aka throwing and diming. You just proved the point. Its like comparing lamar jackson to Aaron Rodgers or drew brees.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

That's exactly why he's cam newton. Cam ran many TDs in by himself. He was the QB, yet way more often tried to score on his own. Where as all true elite QBs dominated by setting up teammates aka throwing and diming. You just proved the point. Its like comparing lamar jackson to Aaron Rodgers or drew brees.

LeBron is more like Drew Brees passing ability with Cam's running ability. While MJ is like Aaron Rodgers as a passer and runner.