if Kevin Love gets the cavs to first place ( 1 game back RN ) Lebrons career is void

[John_Connor]

K love = 24/12/4 per 36m with 40% threes ( embiid-esq )


cavs = 33-21

Lakers = 26-28

:roll:



and btw Roid fans.. actually playing games is part of being a leader


Love = 46 games played
Lebron = 37 games played


step it up Roid



https://h2.gifposter.com/images/Kevin-Bacon/gif/p_10.gif

[ShawkFactory]

True. 6th men are generally the driving force behind an entire team.

Love should be MVP honestly.

[John_Connor]

True. 6th men are generally the driving force behind an entire team.

Love should be MVP honestly.

hes their obvious leader. its arguable another guy is slightly better but as it is they're all pretty even. IMO tyler herro has been the best player all year for the heat this season and hes their 6th man

[1987_Lakers]

True. 6th men are generally the driving force behind an entire team.

Love should be MVP honestly.

:oldlol:

The cherry on the top is OP listing Love's per 36 numbers. When people do that it's because they always try to hide the fact that their raw numbers aren't as good.

[RRR3]

The Cavs are quite literally worse when Love is on the court.

[ShawkFactory]

hes their obvious leader. its arguable another guy is slightly better but as it is they're all pretty even. IMO tyler herro has been the best player all year for the heat this season and hes their 6th man

Well that’s certainly an insanely stupid take.

[SouBeachTalents]

IMO tyler herro has been the best player all year for the heat this season and hes their 6th man
:roll: That's in serious contention for dumbest post of the season.

[RRR3]

:oldlol:

The cherry on the top is OP listing Love's per 36 numbers. When people do that it's because they always try to hide the fact that their raw numbers aren't as good.
His per 36 numbers are nearly identical to what they were in the one season he played with LeBron and no Kyrie. 22.7/11.9 in 2018, 23.7/12.3 this year. This is also after 3 years of being worse than 2018 lol.

[RRR3]

OP automatically decides the best white player on a team is their best player. This dude is an actual white supremacist why do we let him post here. Herro the Heat's best player? Shut up retard.

[3ba11]

It just shows that Lebron is a fraud for team-hopping around for Year 1 favorites (all-star team strategy), rather than learning to win (organic)

Both the Heat and Cavs have enough talent to win with Lebron now, so he's just a shortcut guy . Probably seeks the cheat code for any video game he ever played

[John_Connor]

:roll: That's in serious contention for dumbest post of the season.

Herro = 45 games played (20/4/5 with 38% threes )
Butler = 35 games played ( 21/4/6 with 21% threes )
Bam = 29 games played ( 18/10/3 with 0% threes )


herro technically shoulda got the allstar spot over both of them cause all their stats are around the same but herros played every game and bam/butler have missed a ton

[John_Connor]

:oldlol:

The cherry on the top is OP listing Love's per 36 numbers. When people do that it's because they always try to hide the fact that their raw numbers aren't as good.

i mean their allstar is averaging 19/2/8 in 35 mpg

loves averaging 15/8/2 in 22mpg


loves just contributing more when hes on the floor. period... hes their best player this year so far and emotional leader. if given garlands minutes he averages 24/12

[SouBeachTalents]

Herro = 45 games played (20/4/5 with 38% threes )
Butler = 35 games played ( 21/4/6 with 21% threes )
Bam = 29 games played ( 18/10/3 with 0% threes )


herro technically shoulda got the allstar spot over both of them cause all their stats are around the same but herros played every game and bam/butler have missed a ton
Yeah, Butler isn't a good 3 point shooter, but he still averages more points, rebounds, assists, steals & blocks per game with less turnovers and on much higher efficiency than Herro.

Even if you're not a big fan of advanced metrics, the disparity between the two of them is staggering.

[John_Connor]

Yeah, Butler isn't a good 3 point shooter, he still averages more points, rebounds, assists, steals & blocks per game than Herro on higher efficiency.

Even if you're not a big fan of advanced metrics, the disparity between the two of them is staggering.

i didnt say herros a better player. i said hes been better all year for miami overall and deserved that allstar selection

[TheGoatest]

Cavs records over the last 3 seasons, when Love was actually the leader of the team:

19-63
19-46
22-50

:roll:

[John_Connor]

Cavs records over the last 3 seasons, when Love was actually the leader of the team:

19-63
19-46
22-50

:roll:

tanking/injured ... next

[bison]

Adding Lavert makes this the best Cavs team since the 88-89 squad.

[FireDavidKahn]

LOL.

He's the 4th most important player on that team after Allen/Garland/Mobley

[TheGoatest]

tanking/injured ... next

He was also injured in 2017-18 (missed 23 games), yet the Cavs had a 37-22 record in the games he played. They also made the finals that season. Why? :confusedshrug:
He missed only 9 games in 2019-20, yet the Cavs had a 16-40 record in the games he played. How come? :confusedshrug:
Also, why does a team that made the finals suddenly need to tank? How odd. Please, do explain. :confusedshrug:

[Nb1]

Damn, went from final after final with Lebron and then that? This should cement Lebron as the GOAT.

[TheGoatest]

Damn, went from final after final with Lebron and then that? This should cement Lebron as the GOAT.

This is how much the Cavs had to transform since the 2017-18 finals team to become decent again:

- Put LeBron's 2nd best player by far from 2017-18 on the bench
- Replace every single player except two (both coming off the bench) from LeBron's 2018 supporting cast
- Get a top 5 draft pick 3 straight years
- Get a random lucky trade to work in their favor
- Replace the coach 3 times

Just shows how much that corpse of a supporting cast LeBron single-handedly dragged to the finals sucked in 2018.

[Dr. Lemon]

Kenneth, you have 15+ usernames on a defunct message board.

You're a loser. No basketball result will ever change that.

[ImKobe]

I thought Kevin Love was a scrub? How is he leading a team to one of the top seeds out East 4 years after playing with Bran while the Lakers could be a lottery team with WB & Davis as Bran's teammates?

Love's per 36 averages right now are better than they ever were when he played with Bran. He's averaging 17/8 in 23.7 mpg in his last 25 games as well.

[Spurs m8]

Veteran leadership leading this young team

Not a passive aggressive quote in sight

[TheGoatest]

I thought Kevin Love was a scrub?

For once, your thoughts were correct. But hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Johnny32]

hurrr, love has started two games all season, durrr.

[ThRRR3tardSatan]

The Cavs are quite literally worse when Love is on the court.

Your parent's lives are quite literally worse with you in their house.

[Kblaze8855]

I thought Kevin Love was a scrub? How is he leading a team to one of the top seeds out East 4 years after playing with Bran while the Lakers could be a lottery team with WB & Davis as Bran's teammates?

Love's per 36 averages right now are better than they ever were when he played with Bran. He's averaging 17/8 in 23.7 mpg in his last 25 games as well.


He has played 30 minutes only 3 times but less than 20….17 times…without counting the 2 week stretch he missed during which they won at a 62 win pace. And you use the word “leading”.

I swear any topic about anyone who ever played with Lebron, Jordan, or Kobe should probably be deleted on sight. Just being one of those guys teammates makes you almost certainly a target or a tool for misinformation.

[Full Court]

Brony's career is already full of asterisks.

The Cavs this year don't change anything one way or the other.

[ImKobe]

He has played 30 minutes only 3 times but less than 20….17 times…without counting the 2 week stretch he missed during which they won at a 62 win pace. And you use the word “leading”.

I swear any topic about anyone who ever played with Lebron, Jordan, or Kobe should probably be deleted on sight. Just being one of those guys teammates makes you almost certainly a target or a tool for misinformation.

He's the veteran leader on the team and he's been insanely efficient. The 25-game sample-size I used is actually not good enough, he's averaging 17/8 in 23 mpg over the last 30 and is shooting 41.5% from 3 on 7.5 attempts in those games. This is not "role player" or just your typical 6th man production here.

And put the argument I'm making in the context of replying to the insanely delusional Lebron stans that have bashed this guy ever since he was traded to Cleveland. I can go the other way and be just as delusional but have actual data to back this shit up. He's #1 on the team in BPM and is #2 to Jarrett Allen in PER & WS and is tied for #1 in VORP and is #1 on the team in PIE. He has a higher Net Rating than Jarrett Allen. This might be his best season as a Cavalier in terms of efficiency and how well he's played his role. He had his moments next to Lebron and had that insane quarter and some big Playoff games but he's helping a young team win a ton of games and is the locker room leader of that squad, that's an incredible comeback story for a guy who everyone counted out and who had been struggling with mental problems for years.

They didn't have a tough schedule while he was out early in the season either, there's some easy opponents there (Portland, Detroit) and some close wins vs Raptors, Celtics & Hornets.

[TheGoatest]

He's the veteran leader on the team

Kevdonis Loveslem :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

Kevdonis Loveslem :oldlol:

17/8/2 in 23.4 mpg with 41.5% from 3 on 7.5 3PA in the last 30 games.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Before Rubio going down him Klove and Cedi were a great bench unit. Hopefully Rondo and Levert can fully replace Rubio.

[TheGoatest]

17/8/2 in 23.4 mpg with 41.5% from 3 on 7.5 3PA in the last 30 games.

He averaged 17/10/3 in 2019-20. The Cavs had the worst record in the eastern conference. What happened? :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

I thought Kevin Love was a scrub? How is he leading a team to one of the top seeds out East 4 years after playing with Bran while the Lakers could be a lottery team with WB & Davis as Bran's teammates?

Love's per 36 averages right now are better than they ever were when he played with Bran. He's averaging 17/8 in 23.7 mpg in his last 25 games as well.

This is such a silly post. For starters, it's easier to be efficient when you play 20 minutes a game. That goes for FG and every advanced stat that exists. 60% of his shots are from 3, and 50% of his buckets are spot-up 3s.

He's shooting well, but is not the most important player on the team. No Cavs fan would trade Allen, Mobley, or Garland over Love even just for the remainder of this season.

[ArbitraryWater]

op grasping at straws

Cavs will be a 1r exit, calm down and just be happy they finally made the playoffs without lebron after a million picks and trades and a decade of disastrous losing records

[Kblaze8855]

He's the veteran leader on the team and he's been insanely efficient. The 25-game sample-size I used is actually not good enough, he's averaging 17/8 in 23 mpg over the last 30 and is shooting 41.5% from 3 on 7.5 attempts in those games. This is not "role player" or just your typical 6th man production here.

And put the argument I'm making in the context of replying to the insanely delusional Lebron stans that have bashed this guy ever since he was traded to Cleveland. I can go the other way and be just as delusional but have actual data to back this shit up. He's #1 on the team in BPM and is #2 to Jarrett Allen in PER & WS and is tied for #1 in VORP and is #1 on the team in PIE. He has a higher Net Rating than Jarrett Allen. This might be his best season as a Cavalier in terms of efficiency and how well he's played his role. He had his moments next to Lebron and had that insane quarter and some big Playoff games but he's helping a young team win a ton of games and is the locker room leader of that squad, that's an incredible comeback story for a guy who everyone counted out and who had been struggling with mental problems for years.

They didn't have a tough schedule while he was out early in the season either, there's some easy opponents there (Portland, Detroit) and some close wins vs Raptors, Celtics & Hornets.



As I said none the people in the sphere of the three players is even worth mentioning anymore because those of you who get on here all day to talk about them don’t have any interest in honest discussion. All we get is Pippen was horrible, Pau was actually better than Kobe, and now talk about the ****ing….”PIE” of a 22 minute role player on a 4/5 seed because he played with Lebron 5 seasons ago.

Discussion of everyone to play a minute with these guys is forever tainted by fans or haters of one of the three ready to make them garbage or legends with it breaking precisely along “party lines” as if it’s total coincidence.

Talk about these players is like sending a case to the Supreme Court. You know how everyone’s gonna vote they just have to write the opinion anyway for appearances.

There aren’t many of us still here from before the current ones were tainted by association. A few. But not many. I remember what a few people here thought about the likes of Pau, Love, Bosh, Odom, Wade and so on pre team ups but not most. It’s near impossible to even know who to bother with about most of these things. The people who jump in are generally the Clarence Thomas or RBG types who you know what they think before seeing the vote.

Im pretty sure I saw people talking about Jerry Stackhouse on the wizards and Isaiah Thomas on the Cavs like either has anything to do with the larger Jordan/Lebron discussion. Still talking Brandon Ingram because he probably played 2 months of ball with Lebron. Still see references to the bum ass versions of Nash and Shaq Kobe and Lebron had….

Its tainted a good 20 names. Let’s count actually….

Jordan
Lebron
Kobe
Shaq
Wade
Pippen
Pau
Kyrie
Odom
Bosh
Love
Mo Williams
Antawn Jamison(somehow)
Brandon Ingram
Lonzo Ball
AD

You can kinda add any teammate of Steph in there lately too. Klay is weaponized one way or the other. Dray as well. Iggy.

None of these people exist as stand alone entities. Only within the context of how they make one of the others look from certain angles.

Just proxy wars between the same fans. And all of them will do the “I didn’t bring up ____ you did!” nonsense as if years of history doesn’t make it clear why all of them are mentioned to begin with.

It’s all the front page would be at times without deleted topics. It may get outta hand next week. I’m going to Miami from Thursday till next Sunday and I really hope I don’t find time to come here and read this bullshit. It won’t happen though. Im supposed to go to some clubs Super Bowl party hosted by Rick Ross and the woman I’m with is trying to talk us(my friend is coming) into staying till they close at 8am. Guarantee I’m bored and on my phone by 1.

[ShawkFactory]

Antawn Jamison(somehow)


I don't know why this made me laugh but it did.

You also forgot Kuzma.

[tpols]

This is such a silly post. For starters, it's easier to be efficient when you play 20 minutes a game. That goes for FG and every advanced stat that exists. 60% of his shots are from 3, and 50% of his buckets are spot-up 3s.

He's shooting well, but is not the most important player on the team. No Cavs fan would trade Allen, Mobley, or Garland over Love even just for the remainder of this season.

Kevin Love scored 26 PPG on a ridiculously efficient 120 ORTG his last season with the timberwolves and his best teammates were Ricky Rubio and nikola pekovic. So he's always had the capability to be efficient.

Like... is the guy allowed to have any help? Darius garland? He can't even have that? Lebron has played with full out superstars and MVPS but Kevin love can't play with darius garland?

[ShawkFactory]

Kevin Love scored 26 PPG on a ridiculously efficient 120 ORTG his last season with the timberwolves and his best teammates were Ricky Rubio and nikola pekovic. So he's always had the capability to be efficient.

Like... is the guy allowed to have any help? Darius garland? He can't even have that? Lebron has played with full out superstars and MVPS but Kevin love can't play with darius garland?

I truly don't understand what you're trying to say here..

[John_Connor]

17/8/2 in 23.4 mpg with 41.5% from 3 on 7.5 3PA in the last 30 games.

jesus. prime finals mvp gasol was getting basically those numbers in double the minutes (minus the 3 point shooting)

:bowdown:

[tpols]

I truly don't understand what you're trying to say here..

I'm saying Kevin love is having a great year and his team is winning and you're pinning it on guys who you would shit on if they were Lebrons best teammates. The Cavs are playing good team basketball. They don't really have any star players or household names outside Kevin love. 17/8 is pau gasols career averages.

[ShawkFactory]

I'm saying Kevin love is having a great year and his team is winning and you're pinning it on guys who you would shit on if they were Lebrons best teammates. The Cavs are playing good team basketball. They don't really have any star players or household names outside Kevin love. 17/8 is pau gasols career averages.

He literally is not a starter and has been playing 22 minutes a game. And they went 7-2 without him. Why are you coming from this angle that he's the star and Garland, Mobley, and Allen are his supporting cast? It's bizarre.

Yes, he's also having a good year and the Cavs are playing good team ball. There's no real star on the team yes, and just because Kevin Love is the only household name doesn't make him the most important player.

All of these things can be true.

[theman93]

How long before Lebron tries to flip back to the Cavs?

[tpols]

He literally is not a starter and has been playing 22 minutes a game. And they went 7-2 without him. Why are you coming from this angle that he's the star and Garland, Mobley, and Allen are his supporting cast? It's bizarre.

Yes, he's also having a good year and the Cavs are playing good team ball. There's no real star on the team yes, and just because Kevin Love is the only household name doesn't make him the most important player.

All of these things can be true.

17/8 in only 22 minutes is amazing production. You said its easy to do that, but that's not true. I can't think of much of anybody to produce like that in low minutes. And then you said he wouldn't be able to do more with more minutes yet we have 100s of games of proof from Minnesota that he could. I'm going to have to report you for the spreading of misinformation to the ministry of truth. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

17/8 in only 22 minutes is amazing production. You said its easy to do that, but that's not true. I can't think of much of anybody to produce like that in low minutes. And then you said he wouldn't be able to do more with more minutes yet we have 100s of games of proof from Minnesota that he could. I'm going to have to report you for the spreading of misinformation to the ministry of truth. :lol

It’s easier to be more efficient in reduced minutes. Particularly as it pertains to advanced numbers. That’s just a fact.

But anyway, I already said Love was having a good year. He’s just not the primary driving force of the Cavs as you seem to be implying. Pretty simple..

[Kblaze8855]

He literally is not a starter and has been playing 22 minutes a game. And they went 7-2 without him. Why are you coming from this angle that he's the star and Garland, Mobley, and Allen are his supporting cast? It's bizarre.

Yes, he's also having a good year and the Cavs are playing good team ball. There's no real star on the team yes, and just because Kevin Love is the only household name doesn't make him the most important player.

All of these things can be true.


A guy with the 6th most minutes played on his team and putting up 14.6 and 7.5….is credited more than his teams sole all star for the team playing well. Because 8 years ago he was productive on a lottery team….

Imagine in 2031 someone is crediting role player KAT for wins he scores 12 points in(he’s scored 12 or less more times than he’s scored 17 or more) coming off the bench because a decade previous he put up good numbers that accomplished nothing.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kevin Love scored 26 PPG on a ridiculously efficient 120 ORTG his last season with the timberwolves and his best teammates were Ricky Rubio and nikola pekovic. So he's always had the capability to be efficient.

Like... is the guy allowed to have any help? Darius garland? He can't even have that? Lebron has played with full out superstars and MVPS but Kevin love can't play with darius garland?
What the fck does what he did EIGHT years ago have to do with anything :oldlol: Where were these capabilities the last 3 seasons that Cleveland, like those Minny teams, languished in the lottery?

And where is the 17/8 number coming from? He's averaging less than 15 ppg.

[ShawkFactory]

A guy with the 6th most minutes played on his team and putting up 14.6 and 7.5….is credited more than his teams sole all star for the team playing well. Because 8 years ago he was productive on a lottery team….

Imagine in 2031 someone is crediting role player KAT for wins he scores 12 points in(he’s scored 12 or less more times than he’s scored 17 or more) coming off the bench because a decade previous he put up good numbers that accomplished nothing.

I don’t even know if there’s a single player that’s a driving force for them. I’m more inclined to say that it’s their size in general. I don’t know this for sure but when Mobley and Allen are on the court together I doubt there’s a better defensive team.

[TheGoatest]

This thread still brings the laughs. LMAO @ a player literally not even averaging half of a game's minutes leading/getting a team somewhere. :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t even know if there’s a single player that’s a driving force for them. I’m more inclined to say that it’s their size in general. I don’t know this for sure but when Mobley and Allen are on the court together I doubt there’s a better defensive team.

Single driving force? No I wouldn’t say there is. Just several good players.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kevin Love scored 26 PPG on a ridiculously efficient 120 ORTG his last season with the timberwolves and his best teammates were Ricky Rubio and nikola pekovic. So he's always had the capability to be efficient.

Like... is the guy allowed to have any help? Darius garland? He can't even have that? Lebron has played with full out superstars and MVPS but Kevin love can't play with darius garland?


:roll::roll::roll:

[tpols]

What the fck does what he did EIGHT years ago have to do with anything :oldlol: Where were these capabilities the last 3 seasons that Cleveland, like those Minny teams, languished in the lottery?

And where is the 17/8 number coming from? He's averaging less than 15 ppg.

The fella I replied to made it seem like Kevin love was only producing because of a limited role. If that's all he ever did in his career I would agree. But the guy produced on huge volume with all time great efficiency in his prime. And yes they barely missed the playoffs while he did it but even peak KG used to miss the playoffs until he had all star teammates like Spreewell and Sam cassell. Nobody wins with the timberwolves in a loaded western conference with 0 all star teammates.

Now we got shawk and Kblaze hyping up darius garland lmao. I guess Kevin love isn't allowed to play with anybody.

[ImKobe]

As I said none the people in the sphere of the three players is even worth mentioning anymore because those of you who get on here all day to talk about them don’t have any interest in honest discussion. All we get is Pippen was horrible, Pau was actually better than Kobe, and now talk about the ****ing….”PIE” of a 22 minute role player on a 4/5 seed because he played with Lebron 5 seasons ago.

Discussion of everyone to play a minute with these guys is forever tainted by fans or haters of one of the three ready to make them garbage or legends with it breaking precisely along “party lines” as if it’s total coincidence.



That's the appeal of ISH for those who have still remained on here though. There isn't much "honest" discussion to be had here. I do think Love's been insanely efficient and he's been incredible for most of the season that calling him a "role player" is almost an insult, though the minutes average would suggest that. He should be a starter for the Cavs and probably will play 30+ mpg in the Playoffs as he's put up better numbers (raw average/efficiency) than Lauri and has done so in about 7 less minutes a game.

Markkanen has been out for the last 7 games, and in these 7 games Love is averaging 19/10/3 in 27 mpg and is shooting 40.3% from 3 on 8.9 attempts a game. Not bad for a "role player" .

[FireDavidKahn]

BWHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

Kevin Love was ridiculed for being an empty stat loser with the Wolves and now all of a sudden he was a historically great player whose career was ruined by LeBron.

You cannot make up the logic people use to bash LeBron.

[k0kakw0rld]

hes their obvious leader. its arguable another guy is slightly better but as it is they're all pretty even. IMO tyler herro has been the best player all year for the heat this season and hes their 6th man

Your thread is void because of a stupid statement like this.

[John_Connor]

Your thread is void because of a stupid statement like this.

Tyler herro has been the best player for the overall season for Miami and deserved their teams allstar selection. similar stats while playing way more games than Bam or butler

[FireDavidKahn]

Tyler herro has been the best player for the overall season for Miami and deserved their teams allstar selection. similar stats while playing way more games than Bam or butler

Apparently you don't realize that basketball is a two way game.

[FireDavidKahn]

BPM:

Butler: 8.6
Bam: 2.8
Herro: -0.5

Herro's the best!

[SouBeachTalents]

The fella I replied to made it seem like Kevin love was only producing because of a limited role. If that's all he ever did in his career I would agree. But the guy produced on huge volume with all time great efficiency in his prime. And yes they barely missed the playoffs while he did it but even peak KG used to miss the playoffs until he had all star teammates like Spreewell and Sam cassell. Nobody wins with the timberwolves in a loaded western conference with 0 all star teammates.

Now we got shawk and Kblaze hyping up darius garland lmao. I guess Kevin love isn't allowed to play with anybody.
The KG example isn't accurate. He took his team to the playoffs 7 straight seasons before Spree & Cassell got there, and managed to win 50 games 3 times.

The Timberwolves under Love won 24, 15, 17, 26 (on pace for 32) & 31 games in his first 5 seasons. Then over his last 3 Cavs seasons they've gone 30-73 in the games he's played in. You can bring up the supporting cast all you like, but that's an abysmal track record of team results over a prolonged period of time.

[John_Connor]

Apparently you don't realize that basketball is a two way game.

I do realize it's a 2 way game and if butler and Bam didn't miss a bunch of games I would give them the edge. herro might blow a coverage once or twice each game sure. but when you miss 10 or 20 games you're blowing coverage for literally hundreds of possessions cause youre sitting and being replaced by an inferior player

[FireDavidKahn]

I do realize it's a 2 way game and if butler and Bam didn't miss a bunch of games I would give them the edge. herro might blow a coverage once or twice each game sure. but when you miss 10 or 20 games you're blowing coverage for literally hundreds of possessions cause youre sitting and being replaced by an inferior player

Only you and Herro's Mom would die on this hill. Not even Herro himself would believe this argument you're making

[John_Connor]

Only you and Herro's Mom would die on this hill. Not even Herro himself would believe this argument you're making

again. I'm not saying herro is BETTER than butler or Bam... I'm saying he's been better over the course of the year overall because he has similar stats and played way more games.

like how some guys don't qualify for mvps or scoring titles because they missed too many games. it's obvious that a players value is increased dramatically by how many games he can play

same goes for fantasy leagues. same goes for the kyrie situation.. same goes for why jokic won mvp over embiid who was way better at defense as well..


this is common sense. it is logical. I am correct. you are not

[ShawkFactory]

The fella I replied to made it seem like Kevin love was only producing because of a limited role. If that's all he ever did in his career I would agree. But the guy produced on huge volume with all time great efficiency in his prime. And yes they barely missed the playoffs while he did it but even peak KG used to miss the playoffs until he had all star teammates like Spreewell and Sam cassell. Nobody wins with the timberwolves in a loaded western conference with 0 all star teammates.

Now we got shawk and Kblaze hyping up darius garland lmao. I guess Kevin love isn't allowed to play with anybody.

Well that's not what I said. Read more carefully next time.

[ShawkFactory]

Tyler herro has been the best player for the overall season for Miami and deserved their teams allstar selection. similar stats while playing way more games than Bam or butler

So he's been a better player this season simply because he's played 10 more games than Butler? Is that what you're saying?

[tpols]

The KG example isn't accurate. He took his team to the playoffs 7 straight seasons before Spree & Cassell got there, and managed to win 50 games 3 times.

The Timberwolves under Love won 24, 15, 17, 26 (on pace for 32) & 31 games in his first 5 seasons. Then over his last 3 Cavs seasons they've gone 30-73 in the games he's played in. You can bring up the supporting cast all you like, but that's an abysmal track record of team results over a prolonged period of time.

The first year Kevin Garnett made the playoffs with the timberwolves his team went 40-42. That's the same record Kevin Love led Pekovic and Rubio to in 2014.

In those 7 playoff appearances Garnetts timberwolves went 7-22 in the playoffs. 7 wins and 22 losses. At his peak, Garnett missed the playoffs 3 years in a row 2005, 2006, and 2007.

What a loser right? Its the timberwolves. NOBODY wins with the timberwolves. They've never won anything. Kevin Garnett was easily better than Kevin Love but I guess he's a stat padding scrub because his team always lost right?

[SouBeachTalents]

The first year Kevin Garnett made the playoffs with the timberwolves his team went 40-42. That's the same record Kevin Love led Pekovic and Rubio to in 2014.

In those 7 playoff appearances Garnetts timberwolves went 7-22 in the playoffs. 7 wins and 22 losses. At his peak, Garnett missed the playoffs 3 years in a row 2005, 2006, and 2007.

What a loser right? Its the timberwolves. NOBODY wins with the timberwolves. They've never won anything. Kevin Garnett was easily better than Kevin Love but I guess he's a stat padding scrub because his team always lost right?
Bro, did you really not read what I just posted :lol Yeah, KG didn't achieve any playoff success in Minnesota, but he was taking his team to the postseason on an annual basis, including winning 50 games on multiple occasions. You can't equate that to averaging 27 wins a year and expect the comparison to be taken seriously. Kevin Love's Wolves tenure was closer to Shareef Abdur-Rahim's on the Grizzlies than it was KG's on the Wolves.

[Kblaze8855]

The fella I replied to made it seem like Kevin love was only producing because of a limited role. If that's all he ever did in his career I would agree. But the guy produced on huge volume with all time great efficiency in his prime. And yes they barely missed the playoffs while he did it but even peak KG used to miss the playoffs until he had all star teammates like Spreewell and Sam cassell. Nobody wins with the timberwolves in a loaded western conference with 0 all star teammates.

Now we got shawk and Kblaze hyping up darius garland lmao. I guess Kevin love isn't allowed to play with anybody.

I’ve heard you mention KG missing the playoffs in Minnesota like that before and it makes me wonder if you’re even younger than I thought. KG made the playoffs 8-9 years in a row in Minnesota. I don’t think he missed it from the year he became a full time starter till like 2005 and even then they were over .500. He had 2 bad years after some degree of success from the late 90s on.

As for who love is “allowed” to play with I don’t even know what that’s about. He’s playing either in someone’s supporting cast or as a deep ensemble he definitely isn’t the best of. That being a 22 minute a night player on a 4 seed is something you wanna make into a big deal is just kinda weird. For someone you are impressed by at least.

Its noteworthy for a young up and comer we are hopeful about. A 30 something vet enjoying a late career resurgence off the bench on a middling playoff team is…nice. Just unusual to make out like a big deal for someone you think is a special player.

[Kblaze8855]

That's the appeal of ISH for those who have still remained on here though. There isn't much "honest" discussion to be had here. I do think Love's been insanely efficient and he's been incredible for most of the season that calling him a "role player" is almost an insult, though the minutes average would suggest that. He should be a starter for the Cavs and probably will play 30+ mpg in the Playoffs as he's put up better numbers (raw average/efficiency) than Lauri and has done so in about 7 less minutes a game.

Markkanen has been out for the last 7 games, and in these 7 games Love is averaging 19/10/3 in 27 mpg and is shooting 40.3% from 3 on 8.9 attempts a game. Not bad for a "role player" .


Who has played 22 minutes a game as an established guy and not been a role player?

Serious question. I’m not checking minutes but maybe….Bob Mcadoo behind Kareem? Bill Walton on a minutes restriction after 15 foot surgeries playing behind the GOAT frontcourt?

Maybe Manu or Duncan when Pop was keeping everyone’s minutes low? I’d assume even they were role players by the time their minutes got that low but maybe not. I’d have to do some digging.

There have been young potential stars stuck behind amazing lineups. Drazen in Portland. Gerald Wallace on the Kings. Situations like that. But known….well established commodities?

I don’t know. I’m gonna think about it for a minute.

Glen Rice on the Knicks?

[tontoz]

Love is playing well but let's be real he is just along for the ride. Weak trolling attempt.

Glad for him though. Seems like he is having fun playing with these young guys.

[La Frescobaldi]

Who has played 22 minutes a game as an established guy and not been a role player?

Serious question. I’m not checking minutes but maybe….Bob Mcadoo behind Kareem? Bill Walton on a minutes restriction after 15 foot surgeries playing behind the GOAT frontcourt?

Maybe Manu or Duncan when Pop was keeping everyone’s minutes low? I’d assume even they were role players by the time their minutes got that low but maybe not. I’d have to do some digging.

There have been young potential stars stuck behind amazing lineups. Drazen in Portland. Gerald Wallace on the Kings. Situations like that. But known….well established commodities?

I don’t know. I’m gonna think about it for a minute.

Glen Rice on the Knicks?

that’s just right.
Maybe Elvin Hayes at the end of his days when he went down to Houston. Or Moses Malone in the 90s.

Basically all these guys including Love at the end of their careers

[tpols]

I’ve heard you mention KG missing the playoffs in Minnesota like that before and it makes me wonder if you’re even younger than I thought. KG made the playoffs 8-9 years in a row in Minnesota. I don’t think he missed it from the year he became a full time starter till like 2005 and even then they were over .500. He had 2 bad years after some degree of success from the late 90s on.

As for who love is “allowed” to play with I don’t even know what that’s about. He’s playing either in someone’s supporting cast or as a deep ensemble he definitely isn’t the best of. That being a 22 minute a night player on a 4 seed is something you wanna make into a big deal is just kinda weird. For someone you are impressed by at least.

Its noteworthy for a young up and comer we are hopeful about. A 30 something vet enjoying a late career resurgence off the bench on a middling playoff team is…nice. Just unusual to make out like a big deal for someone you think is a special player.

Ok garnett barely made the playoffs and the first year he did it, they made it with the same record as Kevin loves 2014 team. And they got destroyed in the first round literally every single year 7 years in a row. I was a kid and a nets fan back then so I mainly watched just eastern conference, and deep playoffs. Not first round sweeps.

The point is still valid though. Peak KG is a GOAT talent and even he couldn't take the timberwolves anywhere. I remember the 2004 WCFs because I was in Maryland on a trip for my sister and the second Cassell got hurt the team flopped. That was the closest KG ever came to doing anything with Minnesota.

[tontoz]

KG in Minny had to deal with epically bad management. The Joe Smith under the table deal killed the franchise:


The Timberwolves were fined $3.5 million, and forfeited their first-round draft picks for the next five years (the team’s 2003 pick was eventually restored). Not only was Smith’s newly-signed contract voided, his previous two were as well, meaning he would no longer retain his Bird rights with the Timberwolves. Additionally, Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor was suspended through August 31, 2001, and VP of basketball operations Kevin McHale took a leave of absence through July 31.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/nba-joe-smith-illegal-contract-timberwolves

[WhiteKyrie]

Damn, we all knew K Love was a beast and even though I saw him going massively grey up close a few weeks ago. He’s ballin.

[FireDavidKahn]

Ok garnett barely made the playoffs and the first year he did it, they made it with the same record as Kevin loves 2014 team. And they got destroyed in the first round literally every single year 7 years in a row. I was a kid and a nets fan back then so I mainly watched just eastern conference, and deep playoffs. Not first round sweeps.

The point is still valid though. Peak KG is a GOAT talent and even he couldn't take the timberwolves anywhere. I remember the 2004 WCFs because I was in Maryland on a trip for my sister and the second Cassell got hurt the team flopped. That was the closest KG ever came to doing anything with Minnesota.

Cassell was pretty much THE reason why we didn't win the championship that year.

Remember how he injured himself? By doing the God damn big ball dance of his....

Imagine if Marbury never went crazy or if we had just kept Ray Allen... Garnet would have won multiple championships here

[tpols]

Cassell was pretty much THE reason why we didn't win the championship that year.

Remember how he injured himself? By doing the God damn big ball dance of his....

Imagine if Marbury never went crazy or if we had just kept Ray Allen... Garnet would have won multiple championships here

Well that just shows how valuable Sam Cassell was. He was easily a hard nosed all star talent. So when you lost him, it hurt.

Wolves at one point also had Chauncey billups right? And that wally Szerbiak guy. Along with Spreewell and Cassell. That's easily more help than even what Kevin love had ~ Ricky Rubio, Pekovic and Kevin Martin. Loves supporting casts for his prime in that stacked west were even more pathetic than KGs was in his day.

[La Frescobaldi]

Well that just shows how valuable Sam Cassell was. He was easily a hard nosed all star talent. So when you lost him, it hurt.

Wolves at one point also had Chauncey billups right? And that wally Szerbiak guy. Along with Spreewell and Cassell. That's easily more help than even what Kevin love had ~ Ricky Rubio, Pekovic and Kevin Martin. Loves supporting casts for his prime in that stacked west were even more pathetic than KGs was in his day.

Rubio always scared to shoot and rightly so, pekovic did great until he got a big contract and then never hit another lick. Although truly, he got hurt bad too and never got over it

And ritnour. now there was some true firepower.

[ImKobe]

Who has played 22 minutes a game as an established guy and not been a role player?

Serious question. I’m not checking minutes but maybe….Bob Mcadoo behind Kareem? Bill Walton on a minutes restriction after 15 foot surgeries playing behind the GOAT frontcourt?

Maybe Manu or Duncan when Pop was keeping everyone’s minutes low? I’d assume even they were role players by the time their minutes got that low but maybe not. I’d have to do some digging.

There have been young potential stars stuck behind amazing lineups. Drazen in Portland. Gerald Wallace on the Kings. Situations like that. But known….well established commodities?

I don’t know. I’m gonna think about it for a minute.

Glen Rice on the Knicks?

Depends on what your definition of a role player is.

Love's a core piece of the team but comes off the bench because it's a better fit for their defense and they can run the offense through him with the 2nd unit. He's right there with Mobley, Garland & Allen in terms of production over the last 30 or so games where he's put up 17/8 with elite volume 3PT shooting.

He has too big of a role on the team to just be called a "role player". Manu is a decent comp but Manu had like a 1a/1b role in the Playoffs in his prime so this is more like the early 2010s Manu. Love's been the 1-3 option on offense in most of these games and he's the best pure scorer on the team but obviously not the most valuable because he's an average defender at best, thus he gets less minutes but he does have the highest usage rate (not counting Sexton who's out) & most points/FGA/FTA per 100 poss on the team, obviously a lot of that has to do with them running the offense through him while some of the other guys are on the bench but it shows how much he does for the team when he is out there and is playing 20-30 minutes on a given night.

[Kblaze8855]

Well that just shows how valuable Sam Cassell was. He was easily a hard nosed all star talent. So when you lost him, it hurt.

Wolves at one point also had Chauncey billups right? And that wally Szerbiak guy. Along with Spreewell and Cassell. That's easily more help than even what Kevin love had ~ Ricky Rubio, Pekovic and Kevin Martin. Loves supporting casts for his prime in that stacked west were even more pathetic than KGs was in his day.

It seems clear you don’t remember those teams well. There was a year KG had Troy Hudson and half a season of Wally and the biggest discussion on ish and espn was if he or Duncan was the mvp. He won 50ish games and Troy was his only consistent second option. Trenton Hassel was probably their second best all around player. It’s weird how often I’ve seen you act like a Love/Rubio/Martin/Pekovic core was all time bad. It’s not the least bit noteworthy. Its just an nba team. Not a team that should contend but not a team to be talked about in a “Oh my god….he had no help” way either. Standard nba team talent wise.

[Kblaze8855]

Depends on what your definition of a role player is.

Love's a core piece of the team but comes off the bench because it's a better fit for their defense and they can run the offense through him with the 2nd unit. He's right there with Mobley, Garland & Allen in terms of production over the last 30 or so games where he's put up 17/8 with elite volume 3PT shooting.

He has too big of a role on the team to just be called a "role player". Manu is a decent comp but Manu had like a 1a/1b role in the Playoffs in his prime so this is more like the early 2010s Manu. Love's been the 1-3 option on offense in most of these games and he's the best pure scorer on the team but obviously not the most valuable because he's an average defender at best, thus he gets less minutes but he does have the highest usage rate (not counting Sexton who's out) & most points/FGA/FTA per 100 poss on the team, obviously a lot of that has to do with them running the offense through him while some of the other guys are on the bench but it shows how much he does for the team when he is out there and is playing 20-30 minutes on a given night.

Minutes wise Manu is the closest comp but I don’t imagine anyone would take Love over Manu. Mani was that abstract “winner” and Love just….isn’t. I don’t think people like Kevin Love. Even putting aside Darko who gave him the most scathing teammate review I ever read(cry baby who had tears in his eyes when they won but he had bad stats…said he was used to team ball and would never apologize to Love). This is from a few years past Darko:

Minnesota GM:


And my feelings toward Kevin, frankly, I really like him. And we’ve had some really productive conversation about the steps he needs to take to win back the respect and admiration of his teammates and coaches. It’s almost ridiculous how much attention is paid to my relationship with him. In terms of import, it has no bearing at end of the day whether he’ll be happy here and whether organization will be happy with him. It’s much more important for him to forge really meaningful relationships with his teammates and coaches.


The gm openly admitted Love did not have the respect and admiration of his teammates. It came out that teammates felt he’d rather not play than not play at 100% because it hurt his numbers. Speaking of which…..years before that….


He came out with a claim other players thought he was stat padding and started tapping rebounds out of bounds on purpose to not let him get it. And apparently Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph led an effort by Memphis once to not let him stat pad when he was trying to catch some Moses Malone record. Love said so himself. Teammates and opponents both saw him as a guy who put numbers first and it cost him their respect.

He gets to Cleveland and is the subject of a heated players only meeting where he was supposedly attacked by Thomas and Wade about his buy in. I won’t even go into his shitty incidents later with giving the ball to the other team(literally) and walking off while they hit a 3….or the on court issues showing up Sexton who was then liking tweets on Love stealing money from the Cavs.

Whatever anyone thinks of Manu I don’t remember much in his file about teammates and coaches not respecting him or him being a crying stat padder. Manu was the anti Love id say.

Give me Manu doing 13/4 over Loves 20/10 all day. Manu plays a winning brand of ball I’d say. He’s an “Even if we lose…that guy is a winner” type. Love is….something else. And it feels like a lot of people in the nba have noticed. I don’t think he was generally liked by Minnesota or the Cavs. Whatever people see behind the scenes and up close they don’t seem to like. You don’t get that many breaks in the everybody loves everybody facade of pro sports over nothing.

[tontoz]

Love isn't the "best pure scorer" on the Cavs. He is their best 3 pt shooter. He only makes 2 shots per game inside the arc shooting 48.5%.

Manu is a completely different player. They would give him the ball in crunch time and trust him to make something happen either for himself or someone else. It isn't easy to earn that trust from Pop.

[ImKobe]

Minutes wise Manu is the closest comp but I don’t imagine anyone would take Love over Manu. Mani was that abstract “winner” and Love just….isn’t. I don’t think people like Kevin Love. Even putting aside Darko who gave him the most scathing teammate review I ever read(cry baby who had tears in his eyes when they won but he had bad stats…said he was used to team ball and would never apologize to Love). This is from a few years past Darko:

Minnesota GM:




The gm openly admitted Love did not have the respect and admiration of his teammates. It came out that teammates felt he’d rather not play than not play at 100% because it hurt his numbers. Speaking of which…..years before that….


He came out with a claim other players thought he was stat padding and started tapping rebounds out of bounds on purpose to not let him get it. And apparently Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph led an effort by Memphis once to not let him stat pad when he was trying to catch some Moses Malone record. Love said so himself. Teammates and opponents both saw him as a guy who put numbers first and it cost him their respect.

He gets to Cleveland and is the subject of a heated players only meeting where he was supposedly attacked by Thomas and Wade about his buy in. I won’t even go into his shitty incidents later with giving the ball to the other team(literally) and walking off while they hit a 3….or the on court issues showing up Sexton who was then liking tweets on Love stealing money from the Cavs.

Whatever anyone thinks of Manu I don’t remember much in his file about teammates and coaches not respecting him or him being a crying stat padder. Manu was the anti Love id say.

Give me Manu doing 13/4 over Loves 20/10 all day. Manu plays a winning brand of ball I’d say. He’s an “Even if we lose…that guy is a winner” type. Love is….something else. And it feels like a lot of people in the nba have noticed. I don’t think he was generally liked by Minnesota or the Cavs. Whatever people see behind the scenes and up close they don’t seem to like. You don’t get that many breaks in the everybody loves everybody facade of pro sports over nothing.

Of course he played for stats in Minnesota, what else was he supposed to do on those bad teams? Most of these guys care about their numbers, they get paid to produce and they have incentives on their contracts where they get paid for more All-Star appearances & All-NBA teams. They were unlucky with the Love/Rubio injuries in B2B seasons and those rosters weren't exactly stacked, they were 39 - 38 with him in his last season there, that's a winning player on a mediocre team.

He was bad last year but has done a complete 180 this season according to the Cavs' HC and you can visibly see it in games.

He helped the Cavs win a championship and played a big part in 3 of those Finals runs. He played out of position and had to change his body and his game to fit next to Bron & Kyrie, you can't tell me he's just a statpadding loser who doesn't care about winning.

He's still an All-Star caliber player on a different team so there's no way I'd call him a "role player" with the way he's been playing.


Love isn't the "best pure scorer" on the Cavs. He is their best 3 pt shooter. He only makes 2 shots per game inside the arc shooting 48.5%.

Manu is a completely different player. They would give him the ball in crunch time and trust him to make something happen either for himself or someone else. It isn't easy to earn that trust from Pop.

He is. You and I know he can play in the post and is a good finisher in the paint. You could argue that Sexton's a better scorer but I'm not counting him for this season.

[tontoz]

For his career Love shoots 48% on 2s, not great for a big.

Garland is shooting 54% on 2s as a young PG. Mobley is shooting 53% on 2s as a rookie.

[aj1987]

He helped the Cavs win a championship and played a big part in 3 of those Finals runs. He played out of position and had to change his body and his game to fit next to Bron & Kyrie, you can't tell me he's just a statpadding loser who doesn't care about winning.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

For the most part, Love was absolute trash in the Finals and was mediocre in the other series. For his career, he shot under 42% in 9 of the 13 series that he has played in. Lets not forget that he was injured in one of them, so technically, 8 out of 12. Under 40% in 5 of those series. This doesn't even factor in his defense, which was absolutely horrific. Replace him with ANY PF, who can play solid D and the Cav's do significantly better. This was a max player, BTW.


He's still an All-Star caliber player on a different team so there's no way I'd call him a "role player" with the way he's been playing.
He's not even close to being an All-Star caliber player. He's a decent role-player. Nothing more. Play him more and he either gets injured two games in or he's going to get ABUSED.


He is. You and I know he can play in the post and is a good finisher in the paint. You could argue that Sexton's a better scorer but I'm not counting him for this season.
He's shooting 48.5% on 2's. Dude is literally scoring 4 PPG on 2's and 7.6 PPG on 3's. Heck, he's at 61% on layups and has taken fewer layups (on worse efficiency than Dwight). Love has played TWICE as many minutes as Dwight, BTW.

[ImKobe]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

For the most part, Love was absolute trash in the Finals and was mediocre in the other series. For his career, he shot under 42% in 9 of the 13 series that he has played in. Lets not forget that he was injured in one of them, so technically, 8 out of 12. Under 40% in 5 of those series. This doesn't even factor in his defense, which was absolutely horrific. Replace him with ANY PF, who can play solid D and the Cav's do significantly better. This was a max player, BTW.


He's not even close to being an All-Star caliber player. He's a decent role-player. Nothing more. Play him more and he either gets injured two games in or he's going to get ABUSED.


He's shooting 48.5% on 2's. Dude is literally scoring 4 PPG on 2's and 7.6 PPG on 3's. Heck, he's at 61% on layups and has taken fewer layups (on worse efficiency than Dwight). Love has played TWICE as many minutes as Dwight, BTW.

You're being dishonest using the FG% since he was the spot-up shooter. He averaged 15/10 on 55%TS for those Playoff games as the 3rd option. Chris Bosh from 11-13 averaged 15/8 on 55%TS as the 3rd guy in Miami. Love had some big series like the Toronto one in the last run and his 3PT ability unlocked the paint for Bran so he played a huge role for all those teams. Speaking of his awful defense, he stopped Curry 1 on 1 at the end of Game 7 that basically sealed the game.



https://youtu.be/XC-mTgXRfm8

He had 9/14/3/2 in that game and was a team high +19 & had the best DRTG.

He averaged 21/12 and outscored everyone on the Raptors in the 2018 ECSF. He averaged 19/11 in the '18 Finals as well with 3 straight 20/10 games. He's 68.6% inside 3 ft this season and is averaging 17/8/2 on 45/42/84 splits with 7.5 3PA in his last 30 games.

[WhiteKyrie]

Of course he played for stats in Minnesota, what else was he supposed to do on those bad teams? Most of these guys care about their numbers, they get paid to produce and they have incentives on their contracts where they get paid for more All-Star appearances & All-NBA teams. They were unlucky with the Love/Rubio injuries in B2B seasons and those rosters weren't exactly stacked, they were 39 - 38 with him in his last season there, that's a winning player on a mediocre team.

He was bad last year but has done a complete 180 this season according to the Cavs' HC and you can visibly see it in games.

He helped the Cavs win a championship and played a big part in 3 of those Finals runs. He played out of position and had to change his body and his game to fit next to Bron & Kyrie, you can't tell me he's just a statpadding loser who doesn't care about winning.

He's still an All-Star caliber player on a different team so there's no way I'd call him a "role player" with the way he's been playing.



He is. You and I know he can play in the post and is a good finisher in the paint. You could argue that Sexton's a better scorer but I'm not counting him for this season.
Facts. Blaze is a bball racist. The league is compromised in majority of “me first” black players. Trying to get their shine and their dollars up. Hell, LeBron himself isn’t a winner and is a “me first” guy. Where’s the same level of critique of selfishness as he did here for K-Love.l?

[aj1987]

You're being dishonest using the FG% since he was the spot-up shooter. He averaged 15/10 on 55%TS for those Playoffs games as the 3rd option. Chris Bosh from 11-13 averaged 15/8 on 55%TS as the 3rd guy in Miami. Love had some big series like the Toronto one in the last run and his 3PT ability unlocked the paint for Bran so he played a huge role for all those teams. Speaking of his awful defense, he stopped Curry 1 on 1 at the end of Game 7 that basically sealed the game.
Bosh was a crucial part of Miami's trapping defense. Dude was extremely mobile and could hang with perimeter player. He would get eviscerated in the paint by bigs, but that was never his game in the first place. Love is just a hilariously bad defender. Not even remotely close to being as good as Bosh. Bosh's numbers are also not that impressive, because he wanted to stop "banging in the paint".

As for FG%, lets look at TS%. In '16, when they won their Chip, Love averaged 53% TS% in the 1st round, 49.8% TS% against the Hawks, and 46.8% TS% against the Warriors. Keep in mind, all this while playing terrible defense.

He's a big who can't play in the paint. :oldlol:




https://youtu.be/XC-mTgXRfm8

He had 9/14/3/2 in that game and was a team high +19 & had the best DRTG in that game.
Funny how you left out TS%. 41.8% TS% in that G7. That number makes Brick's Finals performances look like ATG. Also, are you sure you want to use DRtg as an argument for good defense? Might be embarrassing for you, since you ignore it when we talk about your boy and his defense. Anyways, since you brought it up, Love, for the series, was at 95 ORtg and 111 DRtg.


He averaged 21/12 and outscored everyone on the Raptors in the 2018 ECSF. He averaged 19/11 in the '18 Finals as well with 3 straight 20/10 games.



He's 68.6% inside 3 ft this season and is averaging 17/8/2 on 45/42/84 splits with 7.5 3PA in his last 30 games.
No shit, he's at 68.6%. He's a PF. If he wasn't at that number, he'd be playing in China or Turkey. In case, you missed it in my previous post:

He's shooting 48.5% on 2's. Dude is literally scoring 4 PPG on 2's and 7.6 PPG on 3's. Heck, he's at 61% on layups and has taken fewer layups (on worse efficiency than Dwight). Love has played TWICE as many minutes as Dwight, BTW.

He's a bench player and a role-player. He's not even close to being an All-Star level player.

[tpols]

It seems clear you don’t remember those teams well. There was a year KG had Troy Hudson and half a season of Wally and the biggest discussion on ish and espn was if he or Duncan was the mvp. He won 50ish games and Troy was his only consistent second option. Trenton Hassel was probably their second best all around player. It’s weird how often I’ve seen you act like a Love/Rubio/Martin/Pekovic core was all time bad. It’s not the least bit noteworthy. Its just an nba team. Not a team that should contend but not a team to be talked about in a “Oh my god….he had no help” way either. Standard nba team talent wise.

I just looked at the 6, 7, and 8 seeds from 2014 western conference and they were filled with guys like curry, klay, marc Gasol, mike Conley, Zbo, Dirk etc. So the wolves were definitely undermanned compared to their competition. That's not even going over the top and middle stacked teams.

[Kblaze8855]

Of course he played for stats in Minnesota, what else was he supposed to do on those bad teams?

Play to….win games? Like everyone should? What kinda question is that?




He helped the Cavs win a championship and played a big part in 3 of those Finals runs. He played out of position and had to change his body and his game to fit next to Bron & Kyrie, you can't tell me he's just a statpadding loser who doesn't care about winning.



Im not telling you he’s anything. Im saying he’s on a real short list of people I’ve seen a teammate directly and on the record call a crying, selfish, bad teammate he’d never apologize to because his style went against the values he was taught about team play. Im also telling you multiple veterans apparently lit him up for not being committed in a players only meeting and that his gm admitted to the press he had lost the respect of his teammates and coaches and needed to get it back. And that those things are spread over several years and two teams and the guy who ho called him a crybaby wasn’t even on the team the gm said didn’t respect him or the team that had a whole meeting to air him out.

Take from it what you will. Not one of those things comes from me. Just paints a picture. He’s admitted some mental health issues so I won’t go into reasons just saying….teammates have openly shown their disdain multiple times and his boss said they didn’t respect him. Talk to them about it.





He's still an All-Star caliber player on a different team so there's no way I'd call him a "role player" with the way he's been playing.


What you call him is of little consequence. Call him a superstar his coach doesn’t see fit to play very much. Whatever you wanna do. Being called a role player when you barely play isn’t unusual. He’s a bench spark plug at this point. Nothing wrong with that if it contributes to winning.

[ImKobe]

Bosh was a crucial part of Miami's trapping defense. Dude was extremely mobile and could hang with perimeter player. He would get eviscerated in the paint by bigs, but that was never his game in the first place. Love is just a hilariously bad defender. Not even remotely close to being as good as Bosh. Bosh's numbers are also not that impressive, because he wanted to stop "banging in the paint".

As for FG%, lets look at TS%. In '16, when they won their Chip, Love averaged 53% TS% in the 1st round, 49.8% TS% against the Hawks, and 46.8% TS% against the Warriors. Keep in mind, all this while playing terrible defense.

He's a big who can't play in the paint. :oldlol:



Funny how you left out TS%. 41.8% TS% in that G7. That number makes Brick's Finals performances look like ATG. Also, are you sure you want to use DRtg as an argument for good defense? Might be embarrassing for you, since you ignore it when we talk about your boy and his defense. Anyways, since you brought it up, Love, for the series, was at 95 ORtg and 111 DRtg.





No shit, he's at 68.6%. He's a PF. If he wasn't at that number, he'd be playing in China or Turkey. In case, you missed it in my previous post:

He's shooting 48.5% on 2's. Dude is literally scoring 4 PPG on 2's and 7.6 PPG on 3's. Heck, he's at 61% on layups and has taken fewer layups (on worse efficiency than Dwight). Love has played TWICE as many minutes as Dwight, BTW.

He's a bench player and a role-player. He's not even close to being an All-Star level player.

Hilariously bad defender who got the stop in the biggest moment against the greatest 3PT shooter and was the biggest positive on the court in the biggest game. If he got abused so badly, how was the Cavs' DRTG so good when it mattered with him on the court?

And please stop comparing his layup numbers to Dwight's, Love's a shooter and Dwight can't score outside of 3 ft so of course he's going to have more attempts, even with half the minutes because that's ALL he does as a scorer on offense.

This is why ISH sucks though, we can't have a honest discussion about Kevin Love because he's a former teammate of Lebron's. Everything he does sucks and he's a bad player and he's apparently a "role player" who averages 17/8 on 62%TS in his last 30 games.

[aj1987]

I just looked at the 6, 7, and 8 seeds from 2014 western conference and they were filled with guys like curry, klay, marc Gasol, mike Conley, Zbo, Dirk etc. So the wolves were definitely undermanned compared to their competition. That's not even going over the top and middle stacked teams.

2014 Mav's outside Dirk were absolutely trash. They were also WAY behind the 9th seed Suns who won 48 games, led by Dragic.

:roll: :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

This is why ISH sucks though, we can't have a honest discussion about Kevin Love because he's a former teammate of Lebron's. Everything he does sucks and he's a bad player and he's apparently a "role player" who averages 17/8 on 62%TS in his last 30 games.
Do you seriously not believe you do the exact same thing, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. Like you chose to make that thread tracking Kyle Kuzma randomly :lol

[ImKobe]

Play to….win games? Like everyone should? What kinda question is that?







Im not telling you he’s anything. Im saying he’s on a real short list of people I’ve seen a teammate directly and on the record call a crying, selfish, bad teammate he’d never apologize to because his style went against the values he was taught about team play. Im also telling you multiple veterans apparently lit him up for not being committed in a players only meeting and that his gm admitted to the press he had lost the respect of his teammates and coaches and needed to get it back.

Take from it what you will. Not one of those things comes from me. Just paints a picture. He’s admitted some mental health issues so I won’t go into reasons just saying….teammates have openly shown their disdain multiple times and his boss said they didn’t respect him. Talk to them about it.







What you call him is of little consequence. Call him a superstar his coach doesn’t see fit to play very much. Whatever you wanna do. Being called a role player when you barely play isn’t unusual. He’s a bench spark plug at this point. Nothing wrong with that if it contributes to winning.

Play to win with a roster that's nowhere near good enough to compete in the Western Conference, where you need 45-50 wins just to make the Playoffs? You'd have a point if the Timberwolves were in the EC. Timberwolves haven't been good since 2004 so I don't think Love was the problem there. Maybe if he had a PG who could shoot above 40% from the field and a bench, the team could have been good enough to at least get the 8th seed and lose in the 1st round.


Now Kevin Love's the only player in NBA history that has been a bad teammate or has had bad relationships with his teammates.. Give me a break. Some of your favorite players have played for stats and ruined relationships and forced their way out of a franchise (Vince Carter in Toronto ring a bell?), Love is no different in this aspect.

It's fine. You don't like the guy. We'll see how it plays out by the end of the season..

[ImKobe]

Do you seriously not believe you do the exact same thing, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. Like you chose to make that thread tracking Kyle Kuzma randomly :lol

Randomly? I've watched Kuzma since his rookie season and he's been good in Washington. I called it early into his run and now he's had a 20-game stretch of averaging 21/10/3 but the losers there all called him a "role player" as well.

[WhiteKyrie]

Hilariously bad defender who got the stop in the biggest moment against the greatest 3PT shooter and was the biggest positive on the court in the biggest game. If he got abused so badly, how was the Cavs' DRTG so good when it mattered with him on the court?

And please stop comparing his layup numbers to Dwight's, Love's a shooter and Dwight can't score outside of 3 ft so of course he's going to have more attempts, even with half the minutes because that's ALL he does as a scorer on offense.

This is why ISH sucks though, we can't have a honest discussion about Kevin Love because he's a former teammate of Lebron's. Everything he does sucks and he's a bad player and he's apparently a "role player" who averages 17/8 on 62%TS in his last 30 games.
:applause:

[Kblaze8855]

Hilariously bad defender who got the stop in the biggest moment against the greatest 3PT shooter and was the biggest positive on the court in the biggest game. If he got abused so badly, how was the Cavs' DRTG so good when it mattered with him on the court?

And please stop comparing his layup numbers to Dwight's, Love's a shooter and Dwight can't score outside of 3 ft so of course he's going to have more attempts, even with half the minutes because that's ALL he does as a scorer on offense.

This is why ISH sucks though, we can't have a honest discussion about Kevin Love because he's a former teammate of Lebron's. Everything he does sucks and he's a bad player and he's apparently a "role player" who averages 17/8 on 62%TS in his last 30 games.



5000 people have been in the nba.

Point out the ones playing 22 minutes a game who weren’t role players at the time. Do that for me. If he’s the only one you can think of….maybe think about why that is.

Talking about Lebron like Love was universally respected before 2014. You should read the topics on Love vs Rodman from like 2013. At his Minnesota peak posts like this were common:




No, not at all. A stat padder who has no impact on the game is not a superstar. Even Rubio and Pekovic are more important to that team than Love.

Anthony Davis, LMA, and Dirk, are all better than KLove

Stop the overrating.



People not being that impressed with Love did not start in 2015 its just a convenient assumption. I won’t even go into how odd it is that you would act like people allow Lebron discussion to taint their takes on any of his teammates. Every time I open some stupid topic nobody needs to see again you’re in it and your position is as predictable as the rest of those guys.

Whatever you feel my motivations are I’ve been around long enough that my opinions are verifiable from long before any of this bullshit.

I can show you posts from when I loved him in college for his outlet passing comparisons to Wes Unseld. Near as I can tell I bailed around 2013 after being on the fence in 2011. People been saying the same shit about Kevin Love for 10 years. I didn’t realize that his teammates didn’t like him back then but having that information added certainly hasn’t helped.

[aj1987]

Hilariously bad defender who got the stop in the biggest moment against the greatest 3PT shooter and was the biggest positive on the court in the biggest game. If he got abused so badly, how was the Cavs' DRTG so good when it mattered with him on the court?
Are you on crack? Love had a DRtg of 111 for the Finals. That would put him 9th on the team and 18th overall, from both teams. Not just that, he had WOAT DRtg in a Finals. He got a stop on a player how was atrocious that game. Curry missed 10 teams that game before he missed that one. He literally made only one 3 in the entire 4th Q. Sure that was good defense there in that sequence, but overall, for his career, Love is a garbage defender. If you think otherwise, you're flat out retarded or a troll or both (which you obviously are).

I mean, Love being a terrible is not pretty well known as well.


And please stop comparing his layup numbers to Dwight's, Love's a shooter and Dwight can't score outside of 3 ft so of course he's going to have more attempts, even with half the minutes because that's ALL he does as a scorer on offense.
Again, are you on crack? You don't "shoot" layups from 10 feet. They're freaking layups, you dumbshit. :facepalm

Again, Love is scoring 7.6 PPG for the season on 3's and 4 PPG on 2's. He's also only making 61% of his layups, and for a player who you're hyping you so much, those numbers aren't really praise worthy. Literally 60% of his FGA's are 3's and that's very telling.


This is why ISH sucks though, we can't have a honest discussion about Kevin Love because he's a former teammate of Lebron's. Everything he does sucks and he's a bad player and he's apparently a "role player" who averages 17/8 on 62%TS in his last 30 games.
Those are literally role-player numbers. You can cherrypick games how much ever you want, but love is a role-player and not close to being All-Star level. That's just a fact. You can keep trying to prop him up as much as you want, just because he was a former teammate of LeBron's, but facts are facts.

[ShawkFactory]

Randomly? I've watched Kuzma since his rookie season and he's been good in Washington. I called it early into his run and now he's had a 20-game stretch of averaging 21/10/3 but the losers there all called him a "role player" as well.

On a championship team that's what he is. Averaging 21/10 on a like a 30 win team is something a lot of people can do.

[Kblaze8855]

That’s weird to me too. Using stretches as if a stretch of good means you’re actually that…but a stretch of bad doesn’t mean the same. Loy Vaught won a player of the week(maybe 2) at one point and did probably 17/9 for a few months. Flip Murray had a month or so one season where he ran wild and hit some game winners and scored like 20 a game with Ray Allen out and had ISH arguing over if the Sonics should trade Ray for youth and build around Flip. ESPN was playing Lil Flip songs as intros and making mixtapes about Flip ****ing Murray. Much like when Darren Collision was supposedly showing everyone how overrated Chris Paul was when he was doing like 20/8 for a month or two with Paul out.

A role player is a role player even when you apply an arbitrary cutoff point to make his year look the way you want.

It’s nice when somebody has a good stretch. And it’s balanced out by the bad stretches. That’s what makes the real number an “average”. Players aren’t as good as their best nor as bad as their worst.

[ImKobe]

5000 people have been in the nba.

Point out the ones playing 22 minutes a game who weren’t role players at the time. Do that for me. If he’s the only one you can think of….maybe think about why that is.

Talking about Lebron like Love was universally respected before 2014. You should read the topics on Love vs Rodman from like 2013. At his Minnesota peak posts like this were common:







People not being that impressed with Love did not start in 2015 its just a convenient assumption. I won’t even go into how odd it is that you would act like people allow Lebron discussion to taint their takes on any of his teammates. Every time I open some stupid topic nobody needs to see again you’re in it and your position is as predictable as the rest of those guys.

Whatever you feel my motivations are I’ve been around long enough that my opinions are verifiable from long before any of this bullshit.

I can show you posts from when I loved him in college for his outlet passing comparisons to Wes Unseld. Near as I can tell I bailed around 2013 after being on the fence in 2011. People been saying the same shit about Kevin Love for 10 years. I didn’t realize that his teammates didn’t like him back then but having that information added certainly hasn’t helped.

Like I said, it really depends on what your definition of a role player is. Love's not putting up role player numbers on this team, whether it's the raw or the advanced stats. A role player is someone like a Danny Green or a Jae Crowder. You expect them to knock down a couple open shots and play some defense. Every now & then they have a game with 5 threes and they score 15-20 points. Love does A LOT more than that.

I can go on about the Minnesota stuff with Love's last season there. Almost every metric points to him being a superstar and him having superstar-level impact that season.

The West was way too competitive in the early/mid 2010s for that roster to even make the Playoffs because they had no depth and Rubio had his ACL injury as a rookie and never became an efficient scorer and Love himself missed the '13 season and the 8th seed in '14 had 49 wins so they were not getting to that mark either so I'm not sure how any of that really proves anything about him as a player.

KG missed the Playoffs 3 years in a row in his prime. Kobe missed the Playoffs and barely made it the next two years at his peak from '05-'07. Nash missed the Playoffs 3x in a row in the early 2010s. Chris Paul made the Playoffs 3x and won 1 series from '06-'11 in NO. AD only made the Playoffs twice and won 1 Playoff series from '13-'19. WC was really tough for a long time there, it had nothing to do with those guys not being superstars.

[aj1987]

Like I said, it really depends on what your definition of a role player is. Love's not putting up role player numbers on this team, whether it's the raw or the advanced stats. A role player is someone like a Danny Green or a Jae Crowder. You expect them to knock down a couple open shots and play some defense. Every now & then they have a game with 5 threes and they score 15-20 points. Love does A LOT more than that.
Love plays 22 minutes a game and scores 15 PPG. That's literally the definition of a role-player. He plays his role in the limited number of minutes he's allowed to be on the floor. Not to mention the fact that he isn't even a starter, 'cause he couldn't hang with most starters in the league. There's a reason why he only plays 22 MPG as well. Also, the majority of his points come from 3's and he's assisted on 76% of his points scored. So, it's not like he's being given the ball and

[ImKobe]

On a championship team that's what he is. Averaging 21/10 on a like a 30 win team is something a lot of people can do.

It depends on the team. Maybe if Beal and Dinwiddie could make an outside shot, the Wizards wouldn't be sitting below .500 right now? Kuzma's also 19 - 8 in clutch games (game within 5, last 5 minutes) with 51.4%FG 48.1%3PT with game-winners and defensive stops at the end of games so it's not like he's just stat-padding in bad losses. He's arguably THE reason they're not sitting at the bottom of the EC. CP3 is the only player with more clutch wins with 20 (Suns are 20 - 3 in these close games, CP3 averages 2.5 ppg to Kuzma's 2.3 ppg).

[RRR3]

ImKobe never recovered from the 2020 finals, the poor guy :(

[ImKobe]

Love plays 22 minutes a game and scores 15 PPG. That's literally the definition of a role-player. He plays his role in the limited number of minutes he's allowed to be on the floor. Not to mention the fact that he isn't even a starter, 'cause he couldn't hang with most starters in the league. There's a reason why he only plays 22 MPG as well. Also, the majority of his points come from 3's and he's assisted on 76% of his points scored. So, it's not like he's being given the ball and

He's #1 in usage rate when he's on the court. He has plenty of games where he makes plays for others so it's not like he only touches the ball just to shoot it. Look at the data.

Also


He plays his role in the limited number of minutes he's allowed to be on the floor.

this could literally be said about every player in the league. Every single player has a role and every single player is restricted to a certain amount of minutes. You know damn well he's coming off the bench because it's a better fit with the roster that they have, but an argument could be made that he should be playing Markkanen's role as his offense probably makes up for whatever Markkanen gives them more on the defensive end. Maybe they will come Playoff time. And it's not like he hasn't played 25+ minutes in games this season; he's been playing more minutes as the season's gone along and they keep winning.

[ShawkFactory]

It depends on the team. Maybe if Beal and Dinwiddie could make an outside shot, the Wizards wouldn't be sitting below .500 right now? Kuzma's also 19 - 8 in clutch games (game within 5, last 5 minutes) with 51.4%FG 48.1%3PT with game-winners and defensive stops at the end of games so it's not like he's just stat-padding in bad losses. He's arguably THE reason they're not sitting at the bottom of the EC. CP3 is the only player with more clutch wins with 20 (Suns are 20 - 3 in these close games, CP3 averages 2.5 ppg to Kuzma's 2.3 ppg).

Conversely with that, you can argue that they are lucky to even have the record that they do now. They likely won't be able to maintain that kind of pace in close games. It's not a knock of Kuzma, but any team that has that great of a record in close ones. The Suns probably aren't as good as their record indicates because of this too.

[RRR3]

Yep, never recovered. He still REEKS of mental breakdown. Legit think he is in tears as he types his posts out :lol

[RRR3]

The Wizards are -8.8 when Kuzma is on the court, he has an atrocious RAPTOR of -2.7 and a poor EPM of -0.3, so giving him credit for their (relative) success is insane.

[Kblaze8855]

Did I say he wasn’t a superstar in Minnesota? I’m telling you…and can show you…a lot of people didn’t think he was that good. It long predates any Lebron team up and it’s just weird to apply that to a discussion thats 10 years old. People have been unsure 25-27/12 guys like Love, Cousins, KAT and so on we’re true superstars since the dawn of the nba. It’s always been a battle of “Look at those numbers!” vs “Well someone has to score on a shit team” and always will be. I don’t care what side of that argument anyone falls on. Just don’t come out 10 years later and act like the discussion wasn’t had and everyone bought into the numbers being taken at face value.


There are a few guys every era who are too productive to ignore but people can’t decide if they are special or not. Take it back to Walt Bellamy doing 30/19, or Pistol Pete being a 30ppg talent nobody but fans wanted, or Jeff Ruland, Kelly Tripuka, and others in the 80s…Nique being voted most overrated 3 times by the players who watched him score 40…

Its not a new concept.

[ImKobe]

Conversely with that, you can argue that they are lucky to even have the record that they do now. They likely won't be able to maintain that kind of pace in close games. It's not a knock of Kuzma, but any team that has that great of a record in close ones. The Suns probably aren't as good as their record indicates because of this too.

Yes, they're Lucky that Kuzma has won a bunch of these close games for them. They've had plenty of bad losses and that's usually not when he puts up these numbers, he has big games against great teams like the one where he blocked Embiid at the end on the game-tying shot attempt when he had 24/7/3 with 3 blocks just recently. They usually lose big when he plays bad or doesn't attempt a lot of shots. They're 10 - 6 when he scores 20+ points. They're 0 - 3 in games that he's not played.

The Suns are really good and it's no surprise that CP3 is among the best clutch players in the league yet again, he's done this for years but I do agree that they're probably not the best team come Playoffs as some of these teams hopefully get healthy at the right time.

[aj1987]

He's #1 in usage rate when he's on the court. He has plenty of games where he makes plays for others so it's not like he only touches the ball just to shoot it. Look at the data.
I did. The data says he's a player who is assisted on 76% of his shots and get the majority of his points from 3. Also, he creates only 3.6 APG per36. Everything screams role-player. A 22 PPG bench player who takes a ton of 3's and plays poor defense... :oldlol:


this could literally be said about every player in the league. Every single player has a role and every single player is restricted to a certain amount of minutes. You know damn well he's coming off the bench because it's a better fit with the roster that they have, but an argument could be made that he should be playing Markkanen's role as his offense probably makes up for whatever Markkanen gives them more on the defensive end. Maybe they will come Playoff time. And it's not like he hasn't played 25+ minutes in games this season; he's been playing more minutes as the season's gone along and they keep winning.

He comes of the bench because he was trash as a starter and was getting wrecked by most starters. He cannot hang with the starting lineups and he's better playing against other benches. That's just a fact. If he was good enough, he would be starting. There's a reason why he's on the bench. Lauri is better than Love. It's not even up for debate. If Love was starting, we'd see a repeat of last season.

Since you seem to love advanced stats right now, Love is a +0.8 overall this season and Lauri is at +5.5.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes, they're Lucky that Kuzma has won a bunch of these close games for them. They've had plenty of bad losses and that's usually not when he puts up these numbers, he has big games against great teams like the one where he blocked Embiid at the end on the game-tying shot attempt when he had 24/7/3 with 3 blocks just recently. They usually lose big when he plays bad or doesn't attempt a lot of shots. They're 10 - 6 when he scores 20+ points. They're 0 - 3 in games that he's not played.

The Suns are really good and it's no surprise that CP3 is among the best clutch players in the league yet again, he's done this for years but I do agree that they're probably not the best team come Playoffs as some of these teams hopefully get healthy at the right time.

Well I'm saying he's lucky too. Isn't he shooting like 45% from 3 in such situations? Probably not sustainable.

[ImKobe]

I did. The data says he's a player who is assisted on 76% of his shots and get the majority of his points from 3. Also, he creates only 3.6 APG per36. Everything screams role-player. A 22 PPG bench player who takes a ton of 3's and plays poor defense... :oldlol:



He comes of the bench because he was trash as a starter and was getting wrecked by most starters. He cannot hang with the starting lineups and he's better playing against other benches. That's just a fact. If he was good enough, he would be starting. There's a reason why he's on the bench. Lauri is better than Love. It's not even up for debate. If Love was starting, we'd see a repeat of last season.

Since you seem to love advanced stats right now, Love is a +0.8 overall this season and Lauri is at +5.5.



https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739

This says that he has a better DRTG than Markkanen by 2.7 points per 100.

[aj1987]

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612739

This says that he has a better DRTG than Markkanen by 2.7 points per 100.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2022/on-off/

This says that Lauri is a +5.5 and Love is a +0.8. Love plays vs bench warmers and Lauri plays vs starters.

[Akeem34TheDream]

I think its fair to say Klove was what KAT is in Minnesota.

[Gohan]

I swear lebron stans and haters go to the extreme. Stans say hes a role player and haters act like hes a superstar.

Get yo money game up and go buy you a new outfit at the mall or something. Yall nikkas sorry

[ImKobe]

Well I'm saying he's lucky too. Isn't he shooting like 45% from 3 in such situations? Probably not sustainable.

Probably, but he's done it over the course of 27 of these close games and they've won the vast majority of those so he has to be doing something right. Their starting 5 as a whole is a mess and the rotations they've been running isn't doing them any favors as far as the overall success goes.


The Wizards are -8.8 when Kuzma is on the court, he has an atrocious RAPTOR of -2.7 and a poor EPM of -0.3, so giving him credit for their (relative) success is insane.

-6.6 according to the NBA stats site but all their starters are in the negative. Beal's supposed to be a top 20 player and he's a -3.5 and has missed a bunch of games. The Wizards are 7 - 6 without Beal & 0 - 3 without Kuzma. Their relative success has been possible because they're 19 - 8 in close games with Kuzma and he's been insanely efficient in those clutch moments while scoring the most points out of all those guys and has made most of those winning plays with his 3s and with some of the defensive plays, KCP has also played a significant role as well. Wizards are a mess as a whole with their bench being a bright spot with Harrell's efficient scoring. It really comes down to Beal & Dinwiddie not playing up to their expectations.

[RRR3]

:cry:
You won't find a single player with the rotten impact stats Kuzma has that anyone thinks is good. You don't even think he's good, no one does. You just are desperate to try and pretend he's good because you think it makes LeBron look bad and you're furious LeBron surpassed Kobe. Every post of yours is some variation of you being mad LeBron is better than Kobe. Every. Single. One.

[ImKobe]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2022/on-off/

This says that Lauri is a +5.5 and Love is a +0.8. Love plays vs bench warmers and Lauri plays vs starters.

Mobley is a negative according to those numbers so I'm not sure how accurate this is. I still like Love over Markkanen on the offensive side.

[SaintzFury13]

He's the veteran leader on the team and he's been insanely efficient. The 25-game sample-size I used is actually not good enough, he's averaging 17/8 in 23 mpg over the last 30 and is shooting 41.5% from 3 on 7.5 attempts in those games. This is not "role player" or just your typical 6th man production here.

And put the argument I'm making in the context of replying to the insanely delusional Lebron stans that have bashed this guy ever since he was traded to Cleveland. I can go the other way and be just as delusional but have actual data to back this shit up. He's #1 on the team in BPM and is #2 to Jarrett Allen in PER & WS and is tied for #1 in VORP and is #1 on the team in PIE. He has a higher Net Rating than Jarrett Allen. This might be his best season as a Cavalier in terms of efficiency and how well he's played his role. He had his moments next to Lebron and had that insane quarter and some big Playoff games but he's helping a young team win a ton of games and is the locker room leader of that squad, that's an incredible comeback story for a guy who everyone counted out and who had been struggling with mental problems for years.

They didn't have a tough schedule while he was out early in the season either, there's some easy opponents there (Portland, Detroit) and some close wins vs Raptors, Celtics & Hornets.

Love is having an outstanding season. But their turn around has started and ended with their defense, which is among one of the best in the league and has almost nothing to do with Love. Also, Allen and Garland are both having breakout seasons (with one becoming an all star and the other being horribly snubbed) and Mobley is, at this point at least, the runaway ROY. Love's impact cannot be ignored, but we can't sit here and try to pretend that a guy playing 22 minutes a night is the main reason for Cleveland's success. That's just idiotic.


I did. The data says he's a player who is assisted on 76% of his shots and get the majority of his points from 3. Also, he creates only 3.6 APG per36. Everything screams role-player. A 22 PPG bench player who takes a ton of 3's and plays poor defense... :oldlol:



He comes of the bench because he was trash as a starter and was getting wrecked by most starters. He cannot hang with the starting lineups and he's better playing against other benches. That's just a fact. If he was good enough, he would be starting. There's a reason why he's on the bench. Lauri is better than Love. It's not even up for debate. If Love was starting, we'd see a repeat of last season.

Since you seem to love advanced stats right now, Love is a +0.8 overall this season and Lauri is at +5.5.

Come on now. I agree the guy is a moron but Lauri is not better than Love. I watch every game. There are no bullshit advanced metrics that you can show me that will convince me that Lauri is better than Love. Everything we see happening out on the floor says otherwise.

[ImKobe]

You won't find a single player with the rotten impact stats Kuzma has that anyone thinks is good. You don't even think he's good, no one does. You just are desperate to try and pretend he's good because you think it makes LeBron look bad and you're furious LeBron surpassed Kobe. Every post of yours is some variation of you being mad LeBron is better than Kobe. Every. Single. One.

I really could care less about Lebron in this context. Kuzma's on another team and in a difference Conference, him being good a good player on the Wizards has nothing to do with Lebron. He's been fun to watch this year and only CP3 has delivered more than Kuz in crunch time this season.

[WhiteKyrie]

I really could care less about Lebron in this context. Kuzma's on another team and in a difference Conference, him being good a good player on the Wizards has nothing to do with Lebron. He's been fun to watch this year and only CP3 has delivered more than Kuz in crunch time this season.
Derozan has been clutch too

[ImKobe]

Love is having an outstanding season. But their turn around has started and ended with their defense, which is among one of the best in the league and has almost nothing to do with Love. Also, Allen and Garland are both having breakout seasons (with one becoming an all star and the other being horribly snubbed) and Mobley is, at this point at least, the runaway ROY. Love's impact cannot be ignored, but we can't sit here and try to pretend that a guy playing 22 minutes a night is the main reason for Cleveland's success. That's just idiotic.

When did I say that? He's their leader in the locker room but that does not mean he's their best player. Garland's obviously #1 and the others are all real close in terms of production & impact. I'm just pointing out some of the stats that support Love's case here. OP is off the rails so don't think I'm on board with his thread premise, I do think Love's been awesome though.

[aj1987]

Mobley is a negative according to those numbers so I'm not sure how accurate this is. I still like Love over Markkanen on the offensive side.

LMAO. I've seen you use On-Off numbers when it suits your agenda. Now that it doesn't support your argument, you don't know how accurate that is? :roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

is it void?

[1987_Lakers]

:roll:

[FireDavidKahn]

:roll:

[TheGoatest]

The alts have now moved to "Young Drip King" now as their anti-LeBron savior. :oldlol:

https://www.waywardsparkles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/any-way-the-wind-blows-rebelwolf.jpg

:roll:

[ImKobe]

Lakers couldn't even make the Play In while the Cavs were 8th in their Conference LOL. Love and YDK both took their teams further than LeWashed.

Cavs were 9 games from the #1 seed in the EC while the Lakers were a whopping 15 games behind the 7th spot, and the Cavs obviously won 11 more games. Take the L.

[ShawkFactory]

Lakers couldn't even make the Play In while the Cavs were 8th in their Conference LOL. Love and YDK both took their teams further than LeWashed.

Bogdan Bogdanovic took his team farther too.

[ImKobe]

Bogdan Bogdanovic took his team farther too.

Almost everyone did.

It's 2014 all over again, but Lakers don't even have their lottery pick so it's going to be even tougher this time around, unless the FO cleans house (or at least trades Bran & WB) and starts over.

[John_Connor]

how low have lebron fans sunk... comparing their idol to Kevin love and digging up old threads to gloat when he fails to prove lebrons failures are only as bad as his


a guy who ALSO SUCKS


that's the point of the thread morons. you did my job for me. had you dreaming about this day for months

:roll:

[John_Connor]

https://voca.ro/1cl6hbkttQ0J

:roll::roll::roll:

[1987_Lakers]

OP fuming at the thread backfire.

[John_Connor]

OP fuming at the thread backfire.

yeah I'm mad you had a thread saved from months ago as a fall back incase lebron ended up missing the playoffs.

congrats


lebron = Kevin love


both are washed up hasbeens... but at least kev made the play in

[1987_Lakers]

The best part of this thread was going back to read the older posts and see Bron haters jizz at the fact that the Cavs clinch a top 4 seed without LeBron, with Love in reality being like the 4th best player on the team. Talk about desperation. :oldlol:

Months later and they still couldn't even clinch a playoff birth.

[John_Connor]

The best part of this thread was going back to read the older posts and see Bron haters jizz at the fact that the Cavs clinch a top 4 seed without LeBron, with Love in reality being like the 4th best player on the team. Talk about desperation. :oldlol:

Months later and they still couldn't even clinch a playoff birth.

never seen anyone so happy about lebron being equal to Kevin love. this thread really hurt you huh

[1987_Lakers]

never seen anyone so happy about lebron being equal to Kevin love. this thread really hurt you huh

I've never seen someone so hurt for making a dumb statement about Cartwright & Longley and getting called out about it by multiple posters. You spent hours making a thread about it in order to justify that statement and ease your pain.

[John_Connor]

I've never seen someone so hurt for making a dumb statement about Cartwright & Longley and getting called out about it by multiple posters. You spent hours making a thread about it in order to justify that statement and ease your pain.

I've never seen a fan base flip flop so much depending on who they're trying to discredit that given day to prop up lebron

"waaaah waaaah jordan had stacked teams. lebrons big men sucked"


2 seconds later


"kobe sucked without Shaq. Jordan won with the lowest tier big men off the street that had part time jobs"

:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

I've never seen a fan base flip flop so much depending on who they're trying to discredit that given day to prop up lebron

"waaaah waaaah jordan had stacked teams. lebrons big men sucked"


2 seconds later


"kobe sucked without Shaq. Jordan won with the lowest tier big men off the street that had part time jobs"

:roll:

So just because Jordan had low tier centers means his team overall sucked? :roll:

[John_Connor]

So just because Jordan had low tier centers means his team overall sucked? :roll:

dude. you literally said "jordan could win with teams on the same level as the 2001/2002 Lakers without Shaq


so this is the 90s Bulls to you


derek fisher = Ron harper/ BJ armstrong

rick fox = scottie pippen

robert horry = Dennis Rodman/Horace grant

jelani Mccoy = Luc Longley/Bill Cartwright

devean George = Tony Kukoc

Tyrone Lue = Steve Kerr


this is literally what you were implying

:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

dude. you literally said "jordan could win with teams on the same level as the 2001/2002 Lakers without Shaq

No, you said teams couldn't win without a Center and I pointed out how MJ did. Nowhere did I say MJ wins with that Lakers cast without Shaq. lmao.

[John_Connor]

No, you said teams couldn't win without a Center and I pointed out how MJ did. Nowhere did I say MJ wins with that Lakers cast without Shaq. lmao.

and again. bill cartwright and especially luc Longley were good starting centers. you saying they didn't exist or were on par with jelani Mccoy, Greg foster and Travis knight just shows your complete ignorance. and Jordan had Horace grant and Dennis Rodman taking half the duties guarding other teams centers. you literally have NO CLUE about anything basketball related prior to lebrons era

you seriously need to stop posting about it. it's like me trying to talk about 1970s baseball. I wouldn't ... even with all the stats in the world I wouldn't have a clue what went on then


you're a child in this scenario. I'm 10-15 and watch every game on tv and you're 1-5 and watch teletubbies. that's a huge gap here

[1987_Lakers]

and again. bill cartwright and especially luc Longley were good starting centers.

So good that Longley wasn't even a full time starter on a 60 loss team before he joined the Bulls.

Cartwright was so good that he averaged 8/5 on low efficiency during the 1st 3 peat. "But defense", Imagine a 7 foot 1 dude only averaging 0.2 BPG, how does that even happen? :oldlol:

You seriously need to stop posting.

[John_Connor]

here's a question that's gonna make you shit yourself. remember when Rodman caused so many problems for shaq defending him. what was the reason for that. did MJ have a great defensive front court that didn't even need a great center even if your analysis was anywhere remotely close to being accurate. OR.... did shaq just suck like I always stated when it comes to guys and teams getting in his head and he needed a guy like kobe to carry him vs the tough matchups

:lol

[John_Connor]

and maybe Longley didn't start on the wolves because they had an 18ppg guy out of Duke that just won a national championship with a game winning shot and was said to be the next big thing

:lol

[1987_Lakers]

here's a question that's gonna make you shit yourself. remember when Rodman caused so many problems for shaq defending him. what was the reason for that. did MJ have a great defensive front court that didn't even need a great center even if your analysis was anywhere remotely close to being accurate. OR.... did shaq just suck like I always states when it comes to guys and teams getting in his head and he needed a guy like kobe to carry him vs the tough matchups

:lol

Now you are turning the convo into a completely different issue, the fact that they put Rodman on Shaq to slow him down just proves my point how the Bulls didn't have quality centers.

[1987_Lakers]

and maybe Longley didn't start on the wolves because they had an 18ppg guy out of Duke that just won a national championship with a game winning shot and was said to be the next big thing

:lol

Laettner was the PF on the '93 Wolves. Longley was competing with Mike Brown and Stacey King for the starting C spot that year, nuff said.

:lol

[John_Connor]

Now you are turning the convo into a completely different issue, the fact that they put Rodman on Shaq to slow him down just proves my point how the Bulls didn't have quality centers.

or maybe a decent starting center like I said Longley was isn't good enough to stop a Shaquille O'Neal and you need an all time great rebounder and defender to stop someone like that. it doesn't take anything away from luc. I never said he could guard shaq. I said he was a good player. A LOT BETTER than kobes backups for shaq


you're just angry because you got caught. you said jordan didn't need anyone. the lowest tier big men defended the paint for him. the worst of the worst were his big men. lowest tier. absolute bums. jelani McCoy's

these are your words. you're the moron. you're the ignoramus


eat crow and move on. this isn't your era. it's barely mine. stop talking about things you never witnessed

you're like a scientologist right now talking about zenu. sometimes you gotta see to believe. you never watched a single jordan bulls game live

[1987_Lakers]

it doesn't take anything away from luc. I never said he could guard shaq. I said he was a good player. A LOT BETTER than kobes backups for shaq


Dude competing with Mike Brown and Stacey King for the starting C spot is now a good player??

:roll:

[John_Connor]

Dude competing with Mike Brown and Stacey King for the starting C spot is now a good player??

:roll:

well luc did come over from Australia. we all saw how sabonis didn't get much playing time or touches either. some teams even today are hesitant to let foreign guys do anything. I bet if Longley was a black American he gets more love on minny and more touches on the bulls. like I said though. this is another reason basketball reference fans can't debate. they have no eye test knowledge. luc was like a bigger Pau gasol. not as good obviously but he had all the fundamentals down. you can't discuss this shit with me because you only have box scores to go by.


it's like trying to tell someone how good Toni kukoc was. people today will never know. you had to be there


he was right up there with a Peja stojakovic. if he just came into the league 8 years later he's a perennial allstar

[John_Connor]

No, you're just a moron for thinking me saying Longley sucks also means the entire Bulls roster sucked.

That's like me saying Rambis who started a bunch of games for the Showtime Lakers sucked, then some moron like yourself comes along and says I'm implying the whole roster sucked.

but your point was "why couldn't kobe win without Shaq. MJ could with the worst center"

so you're implying that Jordan's teams were on par with the Lakers minus kobe and shaq. that's your words. not mine. if it was just about one position then why compare their success

why even use jordan as an analogy if you know the bulls had studs everywhere else.

because you're an idiot. we all know that already though

[John_Connor]

..

about time. now back to your cave

[1987_Lakers]

but your point was "why couldn't kobe win without Shaq. MJ could with the worst center"

so you're implying that Jordan's teams were on par with the Lakers minus kobe and shaq. that's your words. not mine. if it was just about one position then why they to compare their success

why even use jordan as an analogy if you know the bulls had studs everywhere else.

because you're an idiot. we all know that already though

You lack reading comprehension, you said teams couldn't win without a big, I pointed out MJ did, you overplayed your hand in saying Cartwright and Longley were good players and doubled down on your shit statement and now look like an idiot to everyone.

[John_Connor]

You lack reading comprehension, you said teams couldn't win without a big, I pointed out MJ did, you overplayed your hand in saying Cartwright and Longley were good players and doubled down on your shit statement.

You're an idiot, we all know it.

but jordan did have bigs. he had grant and Bill. then Longley and one of the only 6'8 guys in nba history that can defend 7 footers whenever luc went out

that's like someone saying "a 6'4 power forward is retarded. that never works"


then you saying "what about Barkley. he proves anyone can win with a 6'4 power forward!!!!!"

you're such a stupid ****

:lol

[Wally450]

:roll::roll:

[John_Connor]

how about this.. give kobe 90s Rodman and maybe he has a good record without shaq


especially if you throw in pippen, kukoc, Kerr, longley and harper


:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

but jordan did have bigs. he had grant and Bill. then Longley and one of the only 6'8 guys in nba history that can defend 7 footers whenever luc went out

that's like someone saying "a 6'4 power forward is retarded. that never works"


then you saying "what about Barkley. he proves anyone can win with a 6'4 power forward!!!!!"

you're such a stupid ****

:lol

With Big I mean centers, he had legit all-star caliber PFs.

Everyone called you out on your retarded statement. You've made your bed, now lay on it.

[1987_Lakers]

how about this.. give kobe 90s Rodman and maybe he has a good record without shaq


especially if you throw in pippen, kukoc, Kerr, longley and harper


:roll:

Kobe couldn't even get out of the 1st round with Odom averaging 19/12

:roll:

[John_Connor]

With Big I mean centers, he had legit all-star caliber PFs.

Everyone called you out on your retarded statement. You've made your bed, now lay on it.

grant was a PF/C .. great defender. another Rodman type that stepped in for bill when they had a tougher matchup


like I said. you picked the ONE TIME in nba history a guy could win in an era with great big men without having one himself. why.. because he had allstar or legendary power forwards defending those other teams great big men and the centers themselves were also decent starting level. above jelani Mccoy and Greg foster that's for sure. and then long ass defenders like pippen and harper on the perimeter helping jordan. collapsing on the bigs and forcing rhem to kick it out.


these are things you would know if you weren't in diapers at the time

[John_Connor]

Kobe couldn't even get out of the 1st round with Odom averaging 19/12

:roll:

and then he won back to back titles with a guy averaging 19/9

:lol

[John_Connor]

btw i see how you wanna change the subject when you're getting your shit pushed in. but sorry. it ain't gonna work


you admit defeat since now you wanna talk about 2006 kobe

[1987_Lakers]

grant was a PF/C .. great defender. another Rodman type that stepped in for bill when they had a tougher matchup


like I said. you picked the ONE TIME in nba history a guy could win in an era with great big men without having one himself. why.. because he had allstar or legendary power forwards defending those other teams great big men and the centers themselves were also decent starting level. above jelani Mccoy and Greg foster that's for sure. and then long ass defenders like pippen and harper on the perimeter helping jordan. collapsing on the bigs and forcing rhem to kick it out.


these are things you would know if you weren't in diapers at the time

All of a sudden Horace Grant played center for Chicago, talk about being desperate. :lol

And it's not just MJ, Isiah & Magic won back to back titles without a dominant big.

[1987_Lakers]

and then he won back to back titles with a guy averaging 19/9

:lol

While shooting 6/24 in the process.

:lol

[John_Connor]

All of a sudden Horace Grant played center for Chicago, talk about being desperate. :lol

And it's not just MJ, Isiah & Magic won back to back titles without a dominant big.

I said both grant and Rodman were elite defenders and could guard centers as well. so the bulls never truly needed an elite big to win titles. their team defense was especially the reason. they were one of the best ever. but like I said you're just being a retard for using them as an example for anyone else not needing a good center to compete in one of the REAL eras of basketball when the center position was flooded with all time greats.

it's literally like saying anyone can have a 6'4 power forward as their #1 option and make it to the finals just because one other guy did it


you're being a semantics troll or just argumentative because you live off social assistance and have nothing better to do. you should do like me and get a hobby at the very least. I just drove to the post office to pick up a pujols rookie worth more than your 1 bedroom apartment for an entire months rent

that's what drives me. not kobe discussions. but carry on since you're obsessed for life

[John_Connor]

While shooting 6/24 in the process.

:lol

and saving the last 15 minutes with a 94 Hakeem title the year prior


something lebrons never done. I guess that's why kobe will forever be on your mind

[1987_Lakers]

I said both grant and Rodman were elite defenders and could guard centers as well. so the bulls never truly needed an elite big to win titles. their team defense was especially the reason. they were one of the best ever. but like I said you're just being a retard for using them as an example for anyone else not needing a good center to compete in one of the REAL eras of basketball when the center position was flooded with all time greats.

They both mostly played PF for the Bulls, they didn't need a center to win, but I'm not the one making threads about how good Cartwright & Longley were, your post just reeks of back peddling, you went from sucking off the Bulls centers to now saying "They didn't need a center."

My only points were how Cartwright and Longley were bottom tier starting centers, which is a factual statement. My other point was how MJ won without a dominant big, another factual statement. You proceeded to have a mini meltdown and make a damage controlled thread about how good Cartwright and Longley were after you received backlash for your dumb statement.

[John_Connor]

They both mostly played PF for the Bulls, they didn't need a center to win, but I'm not the one making threads about how good Cartwright & Longley were, your post just reeks of back peddling, you went from sucking off the Bulls centers to now saying "They didn't need a center."

My only points were how Cartwright and Longley were bottom tier starting centers, which is a factual statement. My other point was how MJ won without a dominant big, another factual statement. You proceeded to have a mini meltdown and make a damage controlled thread about how good Cartwright and Longley were after you received backlash for your dumb statement.

and like I said. using the bulls as an excuse as to why nobody can complain about having a shit center is as asinine as saying nobody can complain about having a 6'4 power forward as number one option cause Barkley did it


you're a semantics retard

low IQ trolling... Steve


what do you do for a living again? retired investor millionaire 5'8 jew eh.. sounds familiar

[1987_Lakers]

and like I said. using the bulls as an excuse as to why nobody can complain about having a shit center is as asinine as saying nobody can complain about having a 6'4 power forward as number one option cause Barkley did it


you're a semantics retard

low IQ trolling... Steve


what do you do for a living again? retired investor millionaire 5'8 jew eh.. sounds familiar

Spending hours making a thread hyping up Cartwright and Longley is also asinine. :roll:

[John_Connor]

Spending hours making a thread hyping up Cartwright and Longley is also asinine. :roll:

all I ever said was they were quality starting centers and above jelani Mccoy and you cried for 3 hours about it not knowing that it would backfire in future lebron vs mj debates. I'm gonna pull up all of this shit.

even your fellow stans don't agree with you

[John_Connor]

imagine being so terrified of kobe that you hype up jordan and say he had no bigs just to make a point


you're literally more shook of kobe still. it's pretty funny

[1987_Lakers]

all I ever said was they were quality starting centers and above jelani Mccoy and you cried for 3 hours about it not knowing that it would backfire in future lebron vs mj debates. I'm gonna pull up all of this shit.

even your fellow stans don't agree with you

"But, but, Australia made a documentary about Longley."


:roll:

[John_Connor]

"But, but, Australia made a documentary about Longley."


:roll:

so I ask again. what exactly is it you do for a living. you've never addressed this unless you were on your 8ball account

I dont care about this Longley discussion anymore. I wanna know how a 30 year old midget can spend all day every day on here and not be an admin with an alt account

how much is Jeff paying you btw

[John_Connor]

where did Mr "retired millionaire investor" go

[ArbitraryWater]

is it void now, OP?

[zeerghit]

so how many playoff appearances for Kevin Love without Lebron?

[Spurs m8]

is it void?

Honestly, how are you such a pathetic little b1tch?

Seriously?

You are a sad little b1tch

Look at your avatar...what an embarrassment you are

LeBron is exposed and irrevelevant and the league and its fans don't miss him....playoffs are amazing

[aj1987]

Honestly, how are you such a pathetic little b1tch?

Seriously?

You are a sad little b1tch

Look at your avatar...what an embarrassment you are

LeBron is exposed and irrevelevant and the league and its fans don't miss him....playoffs are amazing

And yet, the only reason you haven't killed yourself is because of LeBron. :roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Honestly, how are you such a pathetic little b1tch?

Seriously?

You are a sad little b1tch

Look at your avatar...what an embarrassment you are

LeBron is exposed and irrevelevant and the league and its fans don't miss him....playoffs are amazing


:roll::roll:


this is not good for your health, mate

[8Ball]

is it void now, OP?

[kawhileonard2]

is it void now, OP?

yes he got further than Lebron with much less talent. Lebron had peak Anthony Davis, Russell Westbrook, Carmelo Anthony, Dwight Howard and missed the playoffs. All top 75 players all time.

[8Ball]

is it void?

Cleveland flourishing right now.