98' Jazz vs 15' Warriors

[3ba11]

.

1) The 15' Warriors had 1 perennial all-star (Curry) and the Jazz had 2 (Malone/Stockton).

2) Klay/Dray were 1st-time all-stars, while the Jazz had a 1-time all-star (Hornacek) that was far superior to Klay across the board for their careers (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS and nearly 3 times the assists - see full stats in posts below or here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501020-Klay-Thompson-vs-Jeff-Hornacek-career-statistical-comparison)).

3) The 98' Jazz went to the Finals the previous year and their experience against MJ would give them a massive edge against the newbie Warriors.. The Jazz also swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers (2 years in a row) and destroyed Duncan/Robinson/Popovich (56-win Spurs), along with Hakeem's Rockets.


Conclusion: Peak Lebron should've won the 15' Finals if he was truly on Jordan's level, since old man Jordan beat a superior opponent with similar help.. Unfortunately, Lebron failed to win like MJ because his high-scoring is too ball-dominant to beat good teams similar to the 09' playoff loss as a historic favorite, and he's also prone to poor jumpshooting efficiency at higher volumes.. His high scoring and ball-dominance also results in his squads getting massively out-assisted.. For these reasons, Lebron can't win with high scoring against good teams, which is why he needs equal-scoring partners (1b's).

[ShawkFactory]

The Jazz were probably a bit better.

I think they would win a series in 6 or 7

[Phoenix]

https://c.tenor.com/Q7njUSBVaoMAAAAC/breakfast-pancakes.gif

[3ba11]

The Jazz were probably a bit better.

I think they would win a series in 6 or 7


Indeed, so Lebron let one get away - an opponent of newbies but he shot under 40% against single coverage - Lebron has several losses as 1st option that could be blamed on efficiency.. I don't think Kobe or Jordan have any.

[ShawkFactory]

Indeed, so Lebron let one get away - an opponent of newbies but he shot under 40% against single coverage - Lebron has several losses as 1st option that could be blamed on efficiency.. I don't think Kobe or Jordan have any.
They’re help was not similar.

[SouBeachTalents]

Indeed, so Lebron let one get away - an opponent of newbies but he shot under 40% against single coverage - Lebron has several losses as 1st option that could be blamed on efficiency.. I don't think Kobe or Jordan have any.
https://c.tenor.com/f-NJFoZcuHgAAAAM/kobe-bryant-laugh.gif

[Hey Yo]

Curry MVP and All-NBA

Klay All-NBA

Draymond All-defensive team + runner-up for DPOY.

Context Yo

[3ba11]

They’re help was not similar.


That has nothing to do with Lebron shooting under 40% as 1st option - Lebron has several losses as 1st option that could be blamed on efficiency - Jordan and Kobe don't

Bad deflection


They’re help was not similar.


False:



MOSGOV 15' FINALS.... 14/8 on 55%
S PIPPEN 98' FINALS.... 16/7 on 41%


* Mosgov averaged twice as many blocks as Pippen

* Tristan averaged 10/13 on 50% (1.0 bpg), which destroys Rodman's 3/8 on 46% (0.3 bpg).

* Kukoc and JR Smith was battle of the 6MOY (Kukoc had an edge due to 30 points in Game 5 loss where Pippen quit, otherwise not a difference-maker)

* Lebron was in his prime and Jordan was 35 years old

* The loss could be blamed on Lebron's efficiency and poor brand (massively out-assisted by Warriors)

* The 98' Jazz were the better opponent (97' Jazz too)

* The Warriors just became an organic juggernaut in 2015, while the Jazz were an organic juggernaut for the entire 90's after cutting their teeth in the 80's.. All the 90's West teams were organic juggernauts that were battle-tested against each other (bloodbath in West every year)

[Vino24]

Jazz isn’t that the team that struggled to score 50pts in a finals game?

[3ba11]

Jazz isn’t that the team that struggled to score 50pts in a finals game?


The Warriors just became an organic juggernaut in 2015, while the Jazz were an organic juggernaut for the entire 90's after cutting their teeth in the 80's.. All the 90's West teams were organic juggernauts that were battle-tested against each other (bloodbath in West every year)

The parity was so good in the 90's West that the winning Western Conference team was the team that had everything go perfect for them, while the losing teams were the teams where one little thing went wrong..

So Jordan was always facing an organic juggernaut opponent that was having their banner year and on top of the world heading into the Finals.. Remember that Lebron loses to organic juggernauts (lottery record vs Spurs, Warriors, Mavs), whereas Jordan was 6/6 against organic juggernauts

[Vino24]

Parity was so good in the 90’s no team gave MJ fits or a 7th game

[ShawkFactory]

False:



MOSGOV 15' FINALS.... 14/8 on 55%
S PIPPEN 98' FINALS.... 16/7 on 41%




S CURRY '15 FINALS....26 on 59 TS%
K MALONE '98 FINALS....25 on 55 TS%

K THOMPSON '15 FINALS....16 on 51 TS%
J HORNACEK '98 FINALS....11 on 50 TS%

A IGUODALA '15 FINALS....16 on 59 TS%
J STOCKTON '98 FINALS....10 on 54 TS%

D GREEN '15 FINALS...13 on 50 TS%
B RUSSELL '98 FINALS...9 on 51 TS%

[SouBeachTalents]

S CURRY '15 FINALS....26 on 59 TS%
K MALONE '98 FINALS....25 on 55 TS%

K THOMPSON '15 FINALS....16 on 51 TS%
J HORNACEK '98 FINALS....11 on 50 TS%

A IGUODALA '15 FINALS....16 on 59 TS%
J STOCKTON '98 FINALS....10 on 54 TS%

D GREEN '15 FINALS...13 on 50 TS%
B RUSSELL '98 FINALS...9 on 51 TS%
Damn

[3ba11]

Parity was so good in the 90’s no team gave MJ fits or a 7th game


MJ hit a bunch of game-tying or game-winning shots to prevent Game 7's, or series-winning assists to Kerr and Paxson after getting double-teamed.. He also had 20-40 clutch points in the series (record) to prevent Game 7's.

It's funny because Jordan had several 7 game series in the Eastern Playoffs due to Pippen wetting the bed (90' ECF... 92' ECSF... 98' ECF).. But MJ was able to overcome Pippen's bed-wetting in the Finals and avoided Game 7's

[3ba11]

S CURRY '15 FINALS....26 on 59 TS%
K MALONE '98 FINALS....25 on 55 TS%

K THOMPSON '15 FINALS....16 on 51 TS%
J HORNACEK '98 FINALS....11 on 50 TS%

A IGUODALA '15 FINALS....16 on 59 TS%
J STOCKTON '98 FINALS....10 on 54 TS%

D GREEN '15 FINALS...13 on 50 TS%
B RUSSELL '98 FINALS...9 on 51 TS%


The stats are irrelevant because the pace and DRTG was so much tougher in 98' than 15'



98' Finals...... 96 drtg... 82 pace
15' Finals.... 107 drtg... 91 pace


It was the advanced format of 98' (no spacing, hands-on, physicality, packed paint) versus the beginner format of 2015 (wide open spacing, hands-off, no physicality, open paint)..

Yet peak Lebron still shot worse against single-coverage than old Jordan did against constant double-teams.

[ShawkFactory]

The stats are irrelevant because the pace and DRTG was so much tougher in 98' than 15'



98' Finals...... 96 drtg... 82 pace
15' Finals.... 107 drtg... 91 pace


It was the advanced format of 98' (no spacing, hands-on, physicality, packed paint) versus the beginner format of 2015 (wide open spacing, hands-off, no physicality, open paint)

Lol so you're admitting that your first post then is completely invalid:


False:


MOSGOV 15' FINALS.... 14/8 on 55%
S PIPPEN 98' FINALS.... 16/7 on 41%


* Mosgov averaged twice as many blocks as Pippen

* Tristan averaged 10/13 on 50% (1.0 bpg), which destroys Rodman's 3/8 on 46% (0.3 bpg).

* Kukoc and JR Smith was battle of the 6MOY (Kukoc had an edge due to 30 points in Game 5 loss where Pippen quit, otherwise not a difference-maker)


No mention of pace or DRTG here. Thanks for the easy assist man. You do it to yourself :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol so you're admitting that your first post then is completely invalid:



No mention of pace or DRTG here. Thanks for the easy assist man. You do it to yourself :lol
It's hard to believe somebody could be that dumb :lol But he constantly contradicts himself.

[3ba11]

Lol so you're admitting that your first post then is completely invalid:



No mention of pace or DRTG here. Thanks for the easy assist man. You do it to yourself :lol


Pippen was below league average true shooting for every year of his playoff career except 89-91', so his efficiency is inferior regardless of era - he couldn't handle the 2nd option load, which is why he was demoted in Houston and Portland - he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ

But we agree that the stats are largely irrelevant due to era, which gets us back to the fact that peak Lebron lost to an inferior opponent than the one old MJ defeated with comparable help (compromise).. Lebron should've beaten a bunch of 1st-timers in 2015, but he shot too poorly.

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen was below league average true shooting for every year of his playoff career except 89-91', so his efficiency is inferior regardless of era - he couldn't handle the 2nd option load, which is why he was demoted in Houston and Portland - he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ

But we agree that the stats are largely irrelevant due to era, which gets us back to the fact that peak Lebron lost to an inferior opponent than the one old MJ defeated with comparable help (compromise).. Lebron should've beaten a bunch of 1st-timers in 2015, but he shot too poorly.

Not even close.

I mean I suppose you can compare anything. Doesn't make the comparison a good one.

[3ba11]

Not even close.

I mean I suppose you can compare anything. Doesn't make the comparison a good one.


Lebron had better supporting talent top to bottom - Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and 98' Finals, so he wouldn't be playable on those Cavs teams and Mosgov outplayed Pippen.. And those were supposed to be the Bulls' top 2 supporting players.

So you're just going by the media perspective that "b-b-but Pippen had 5 all-nba awards", which means exactly nothing because they're media awards and Pippen played worse than Shaq did in the 2010 ECSF loss

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron had better supporting talent top to bottom - Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and 98' Finals, so he wouldn't be playable on those Cavs teams and Mosgov outplayed Pippen.. And those were supposed to be the Bulls' top 2 supporting players.

So you're just going by the media perspective that "b-b-but Pippen had 5 all-nba awards", which means exactly nothing because they're media awards and Pippen played worse than Shaq did in the 2010 ECSF loss

Literally the OP in this thread compares the 98 Jazz favorably to the Warriors based very largely on media awards/all stars.


Rodman averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and 98' Finals, so he wouldn't be playable on those Cavs teams

Why?

[Indian guy]

Honestly, it's hard to watch the '97 and '98 Finals and come out thinking too highly of Utah. They just come off so limited as a team. Which I guess shouldn't be too surprising when your 2nd option is struggling to break single digits. Those Finals are not a good showcase for top level basketball at all. 2 old af teams whose best days are well behind them.

I'm picking GS here. They have the best player in the series, 4 of the 6 best players overall, dominant defensively (to Utah's #17 defensive rank) and way younger.

[La Frescobaldi]

Honestly, it's hard to watch the '97 and '98 Finals and come out thinking too highly of Utah. They just come off so limited as a team. Which I guess shouldn't be too surprising when your 2nd option is struggling to break single digits. Those Finals are not a good showcase for top level basketball at all. 2 old af teams whose best days are well behind them.

I'm picking GS here. They have the best player in the series, 4 of the 6 best players overall, dominant defensively (to Utah's #17 defensive rank) and way younger.

Golden State wins easily with 2015 rules maybe even a sweep.

and would still win in 98 but not easily.

Much better team than ancient jazz

[1987_Lakers]

Honestly, it's hard to watch the '97 and '98 Finals and come out thinking too highly of Utah. They just come off so limited as a team. Which I guess shouldn't be too surprising when your 2nd option is struggling to break single digits. Those Finals are not a good showcase for top level basketball at all. 2 old af teams whose best days are well behind them.

I'm picking GS here. They have the best player in the series, 4 of the 6 best players overall, dominant defensively (to Utah's #17 defensive rank) and way younger.

I always thought the '17 Finals was a good showcase for top level basketball, granted the Cavs didn't play much defense, but the fire power on both teams were insane. People forget the Cavs were coming off destroying the Celtics, winning 2 of those games by 30+ points and had a 12-1 record before reaching the Finals, they were probably better than their '16 team but the Warriors adding Durant was overkill.

[HoopsNY]

Honestly, it's hard to watch the '97 and '98 Finals and come out thinking too highly of Utah. They just come off so limited as a team. Which I guess shouldn't be too surprising when your 2nd option is struggling to break single digits. Those Finals are not a good showcase for top level basketball at all. 2 old af teams whose best days are well behind them.

I'm picking GS here. They have the best player in the series, 4 of the 6 best players overall, dominant defensively (to Utah's #17 defensive rank) and way younger.

I thought the same; but then I considered that the 2015 Cavs managed to win 2 games without Kyrie and Love for nearly the entire series. And that team averaged 93 ppg. And they didn't win games by lighting up from the distance. They shot 29% from the three in the series. Consider that the pace was higher, too. The '97 Jazz averaged 87 PPG. Also consider the '15 finals had 2 OT games, which resulted in an additional 26 points combined for both teams. The '97 finals had none.

Steph shot 44% and averaged nearly 5 TOs. Klay shot 41% and 30% from three. Draymond shot 38%, Barnes shot 37%. The Cavs were 18th in defense that year.

Lets look at the splits from '97 and '15:

UTA '97 Finals: 43%/41%/73%
GS '15 Finals: 44%/36%/69%

Utah had the shortened three, but how much lower do they shoot with a regular three point line?

Having said that, I still think GS wins, but the whole argument becomes much more interesting when you consider how much they struggled against Cleveland.

[Axe]

I always thought the '17 Finals was a good showcase for top level basketball, granted the Cavs didn't play much defense, but the fire power on both teams were insane. People forget the Cavs were coming off destroying the Celtics, winning 2 of those games by 30+ points and had a 12-1 record before reaching the Finals, they were probably better than their '16 team but the Warriors adding Durant was overkill.
That's what screwed and made the cavs-dubs rivalry lopsided big time. Durant was a shameless asshole to have done that move when he could have joined another contending team instead.

[highwhey]

That's what screwed and made the cavs-dubs rivalry lopsided big time. Durant was a shameless asshole to have done that move when he could have joined another contending team instead.

he was a true coward.

[3ba11]

That's what screwed and made the cavs-dubs rivalry lopsided big time. Durant was a shameless asshole to have done that move when he could have joined another contending team instead.


Lebron's super-teams from 2011-2016 were so unfair and lorded over the league (preseason favorites every year) - someone had to do something to stop the fraud and most people are glad that Durant stepped up to the plate