Peak Lebron was underdog to baby Westbrook

[3ba11]

heading into the 12' Finals

The Heat began as the preseason favorite but once everyone saw their shit brand of ball and chemistry, their favored talent fell to underdog.

Shit brand (weak chemistry) and bad teammate fits (skill deficit) is the only way that favored talent like the 12' Heat could ever be underdogs

[FultzNationRISE]

Shut up.

[ShawkFactory]

Well no it’s because the Heat were struggling with injuries. It wasn’t clear that Bosh was going to be remotely healthy, or if he was even going to play at all.

I know you generally like to ignore facts in favor of your narratives. But there you go.

[BarberSchool]

In baby Westbrook’s best game of that 2012 finals, his painful mental deficiencies, were still the reason they lost the game at the end:

https://youtu.be/A63mcHyGYMs

Westbrick, among all NBA superstars in history, is the dumbest of them all on the court.

Westbrick, among all NBA superstar guards in history, is the Worst jump shooter of them all.

Westbrick, among all NBA superstars in history, is the most likely to have a game with 7 or more turnovers.

Westbrick, among all NBA superstars in history, is the most likely to sacrifice/sabotage his own teams’ success on a possession, a game, or a series, to pad his own stats.

It must really suck being a die hard Westbrick fan, OP.

[Vino24]

Baby Westbrook was already in the league for 4 years.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Bulls won 55 games without Jordan.

[aj1987]

The Bulls won 55 games without Jordan.

Ordan never had a .500 season without Pippen.

[3ba11]

Baby Westbrook was already in the league for 4 years.


It's funny because you guys say Wade was washed in 2013 & 14' for averaging 21/5/5, while Westbrook's 20/8/8 is nowhere near enough....

Yet that's what peak Pippen averaged - Lebron loses his ass with the same help that Jordan went 6/6 with

[Ne 1]

The Thunder were deeper, had KD and arguably the best 6th man in the league in Harden. It wasn't Bron vs Westbrook so what’s your point?

[SpaceJammeR]

when you post. you sound more stupid. was westbrook the only person on the team?

[Wally450]

Oreo O's were a great cereal.

[aj1987]

The Thunder were deeper, had KD and arguably the best 6th man in the league in Harden. It wasn't Bron vs Westbrook so what’s your point?

Harden won 6th MOY that season. Ibaka made First Team All-Def. Thabo was in that conversation as well.


Oreo O's were a great cereal.

GOAT cereal. The new ones without the marshmallow's are trash though.

[tpols]

Well no it’s because the Heat were struggling with injuries. It wasn’t clear that Bosh was going to be remotely healthy, or if he was even going to play at all.

I know you generally like to ignore facts in favor of your narratives. But there you go.

He still had prime Dwayne wade and a stacked cast of snipers. That absolutely isn't a valid excuse.

[aj1987]

He still had prime Dwayne wade and a stacked cast of snipers. That absolutely isn't a valid excuse.

'12 Wade wasn't prime Wade, you autistic little shit. :oldlol:


Stacked cast of snipers? He had Miller and Battier.

[ShawkFactory]

He still had prime Dwayne wade and a stacked cast of snipers. That absolutely isn't a valid excuse.

They won the series in 5, so I'm not sure an excuse is needed.

OP brought up the betting odds. The Bosh injury combined with the Thunder romping through that "stacked West" had a lot to do with the Thunder being the slight favorite.

[SouBeachTalents]

They won the series in 5, so I'm not sure an excuse is needed.

OP brought up the betting odds. The Bosh injury combined with the Thunder romping through that "stacked West" had a lot to do with the Thunder being the slight favorite.
You haven’t even mentioned they had HCA. How many teams with HCA in the Finals have been the underdog? I’d wager it’s happened 2-3 at most over the last 25 years.

[tpols]

They won the series in 5, so I'm not sure an excuse is needed.

OP brought up the betting odds. The Bosh injury combined with the Thunder romping through that "stacked West" had a lot to do with the Thunder being the slight favorite.

They had Durant who = LeBron and Wade who is >> Westbrook. Harden was trash in the Finals so he's not even worth bringing up. And I remember Heat snipers going off in that Finals. Battier was on fire. Westbrook got called worst point guard ever by magic Johnson and was benched for Eric maynor at one point.

[ShawkFactory]

They had Durant who = LeBron and Wade who is >> Westbrook. Harden was trash in the Finals so he's not even worth bringing up. And I remember Heat snipers going off in that Finals. Battier was on fire. Westbrook got called worst point guard ever by magic Johnson and was benched for Eric maynor at one point.

Ummm...I'm not sure you quite understand what we're talking about here :lol

Why are you bringing things that happened in the finals when the discussion is about pre-series odds?

[tpols]

Ummm...I'm not sure you quite understand what we're talking about here :lol

Why are you bringing things that happened in the finals when the discussion is about pre-series odds?

The pre-season odds had Miami as the title favorite with the highest O/U projected win total in the league yet the Thunder ended up with more wins and hence HCA. Everybody back then expected Miami to be a Bill Russell not 5, not 6, not 7 dynasty yet they considerably underperformed against expectation. Title favorites every year yet they had a losing record in the Finals and never had any dynasty pedigree or intimidation factor. A bunch of old guys who played team ball dismantled their era in fact.

[RRR3]

2012 Durant equal to absolute PEAK LeBron lmfao. Ttrolls :facepalm

[tpols]

2012 Durant equal to absolute PEAK LeBron lmfao. Ttrolls :facepalm

Durant actually outproduced and outshot LeBron in that series. If Durant had Wade and LeBron had westbrook... well we see how that works now. The thunder would probably sweep.

[aj1987]

They had Durant who = LeBron and Wade who is >> Westbrook. Harden was trash in the Finals so he's not even worth bringing up. And I remember Heat snipers going off in that Finals. Battier was on fire. Westbrook got called worst point guard ever by magic Johnson and was benched for Eric maynor at one point.

Ignoring the rest of your stupid ass post, Maynor tore his ACL in Jan that season. :roll: :roll:


Durant actually outproduced and outshot LeBron in that series. If Durant had Wade and LeBron had westbrook... well we see how that works now. The thunder would probably sweep.

Yeah, no shit. LeBron/WB/Harden with 2 All-Def players in Ibaka and Thabo. They'd sweep the Heat with KD and Wade.

[RRR3]

Duh-uhhh-uhhhh-uhhhhhhhhhh
:facepalm

[RRR3]

Tpols is honestly one of the biggest retards I've run into on ISH. Imagine being so desperately butthurt that LeBron surpassed Kobe that you say insane stuff like 12 Durant=peak LeBron. Not to mention he's a racist POS. What a ****ing loser.

[RRR3]

Ignoring the rest of your stupid ass post, Maynor tore his ACL in Jan that season. :roll: :roll:



Yeah, no shit. LeBron/WB/Harden with 2 All-Def players in Ibaka and Thabo. They'd sweep the Heat with KD and Wade.
He quit watching the playoffs in 2012 after his hero pooped his pants against the Thunder, tossing up countless bricks while ignoring Bynum and Gasol.

[RRR3]

The Heat targeted Durant constantly on defense. Thunder tried to hide him on Chalmers and Chalmers annihilated him. He was a shit defender back then. LeBron was DPOY level. This is honestly one of the stupidest things ttrolls ever said which is saying something.

[ShawkFactory]

The pre-season odds had Miami as the title favorite with the highest O/U projected win total in the league yet the Thunder ended up with more wins and hence HCA. Everybody back then expected Miami to be a Bill Russell not 5, not 6, not 7 dynasty yet they considerably underperformed against expectation. Title favorites every year yet they had a losing record in the Finals and never had any dynasty pedigree or intimidation factor. A bunch of old guys who played team ball dismantled their era in fact.

Meh. Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka all played in every game. Perkins missed one and Harden missed 3. In case you have trouble mathing the entire Thunder starting 5 had FOUR combined games missed the entire season. And Despite that they still only finished a game better than the Heat, who had Wade miss 17 games, Bosh miss 9, and Lebron miss 4. So the HCA aspect isn't really knock on the Heat so much as it was great fortune for OKC.

None of that would have mattered if Bosh were healthy though. The Heat likely would have been the favorites had it been clear he was going to play and be effective. That combined with the the Thunder romping through had quite a lot to do with the pre-series odds.

[tpols]

Ignoring the rest of your stupid ass post, Maynor tore his ACL in Jan that season. :roll: :roll:



Yeah, no shit. LeBron/WB/Harden with 2 All-Def players in Ibaka and Thabo. They'd sweep the Heat with KD and Wade.

Harden got outplayed by Bosh and Westbrook got outplayed by Wade. The Heat had an elite ranked defense as well so that doesn't fly either. They were an elite top 5 defense even in 2010 before adding battier and bosh in years later.

It doesn't take much at all to see how disastrous a Westbrook, LeBron and baby harden trio of diminishing returns ball dominance would be. A KD, Wade and Bosh trio would wipe the floor with them. :roll:

[aj1987]

Harden got outplayed by Bosh and Westbrook got outplayed by Wade. The Heat had an elite ranked defense as well so that doesn't fly either. They were an elite top 5 defense even in 2010 before adding battier and bosh in years later.
The Heat had All-Def first team LeBron James, who was in DPOY contention that season. LeBron's playmaking would significantly improve Harden and WB. KD was a trash defender that season and a trash playmaker. LeBron was infinitely better


It doesn't take much at all to see how disastrous a Westbrook, LeBron and baby harden trio of diminishing returns ball dominance would be. A KD, Wade and Bosh trio would wipe the floor with them. :roll:

Harden was a bench player and was playing ~32 MPG. LeBron was at 44 MPG. Not to mention the FACT that Harden wasn't nearly as ball dominant. The Thunder with LeBron would make either KD quit playing basketball of make him join the Spurs in '13. LeBron/Thabo/Ibaka guarding KD, instead of Battier...:roll: :roll:

No point in discussing basketball with a low IQ clown like you though. You thought WB was benched for Maynor in the '12 Finals...:roll:

[Gohan]

The Bulls won 55 games without Jordan.

Lebron never won a championship with shaq but kobe did.









There u there u go acting like a ho

[tpols]

The Heat had All-Def first team LeBron James

The Heat were the 5th ranked defense in 2010 before LeBron came over. They always had an elite defense under wade, riley and spo. So your point here doesn't hold any water.



LeBron's playmaking would significantly improve Harden and WB.

:biggums:

Even hardcore LeBron fans like RRR3 can see how disastrous of a fit Westbrook is alongside LeBron. Add Harden into the mix and they would be one of the worst chemistry having pairings of all time. You can't even be serious here are you?

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's funny because you guys say Wade was washed in 2013 & 14' for averaging 21/5/5, while Westbrook's 20/8/8 is nowhere near enough....

Yet that's what peak Pippen averaged - Lebron loses his ass with the same help that Jordan went 6/6 with
Intangibles

A stat nerd like you doesn't understand the meaning or importance of intangibles... so you blindly list raw stats as your only form of argument. It's actually embarrassing man... you're a nerd whose never played a sport in your life

[MrFonzworth]

Intangibles

A stat nerd like you doesn't understand the meaning or importance of intangibles... so you blindly list raw stats as your only form of argument. It's actually embarrassing man... you're a nerd whose never played a sport in your life

Coming from the fatass with double digit alts and is wrong about every take ever given:roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Coming from the fatass with double digit alts and is wrong about every take ever given:roll:

That wasn't remotely funny so not sure why the rolling smiley was used.

I cringed though

[MrFonzworth]

That wasn't remotely funny so not sure why the rolling smiley was used.

I cringed though

What's funny is the contrast of your persona on this account vs your actual personality irl. Of course you wouldn't find it funny, you're the joke.

[SATAN]

That wasn't remotely funny so not sure why the rolling smiley was used.

I cringed though

He's never said a single funny thing on this forum but he always laughs at himself. I suspect he has autism.

[AlternativeAcc.]

What's funny is the contrast of your persona on this account vs your actual personality irl. Of course you wouldn't find it funny, you're the joke.

Wow hard hitting stuff here from some weird insecure Asian guy. You're so ****ing awkward and cringey :oldlol:

[MrFonzworth]

He's never said a single funny thing on this forum but he always laughs at himself. I suspect he has autism.

What's funny is the contrast of your persona on this account vs your actual personality irl. Of course you wouldn't find it funny, you're the joke.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He's never said a single funny thing on this forum but he always laughs at himself. I suspect he has autism.
:lol no doubt

[SATAN]

What's funny is the contrast of your persona on this account vs your actual personality irl. Of course you wouldn't find it funny, you're the joke.

https://www.tripsavvy.com/thmb/URjSKkg_foJnFP33CXsm4V35dPA=/3616x2586/filters:fill(auto,1)/downtown-anchorage--alaska-142523317-5aeb2a9630371300362d7865.jpg

[MrFonzworth]

Wow hard hitting stuff here from some weird insecure Asian guy. You're so ****ing awkward and cringey :oldlol:

Nothing more awkward than an incel bringing up race. Tone it down Simon you're creeping everyone out

[MrFonzworth]

https://www.tripsavvy.com/thmb/URjSKkg_foJnFP33CXsm4V35dPA=/3616x2586/filters:fill(auto,1)/downtown-anchorage--alaska-142523317-5aeb2a9630371300362d7865.jpg

:roll:

[FultzNationRISE]

Tpols is honestly one of the biggest retards I've run into on ISH. Imagine being so desperately butthurt that LeBron surpassed Kobe that you say insane stuff like 12 Durant=peak LeBron. Not to mention he's a racist POS. What a ****ing loser.

Well to be fair youve said much more retarded things in political conversation, and youre a much bigger loser.

[Hey Yo]

They had Durant who = LeBron and Wade who is >> Westbrook. Harden was trash in the Finals so he's not even worth bringing up. And I remember Heat snipers going off in that Finals. Battier was on fire. Westbrook got called worst point guard ever by magic Johnson and was benched for Eric maynor at one point.

If Harden was garbage, then what was superstar Love in the 2016 Finals?

[RRR3]

:mad:
:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

The Heat were the 5th ranked defense in 2010 before LeBron came over. They always had an elite defense under wade, riley and spo. So your point here doesn't hold any water.

:biggums:

Even hardcore LeBron fans like RRR3 can see how disastrous of a fit Westbrook is alongside LeBron. Add Harden into the mix and they would be one of the worst chemistry having pairings of all time. You can't even be serious here are you?
Yeah, but saying Durant was as good as LeBron in 2012 is really dumb.

[RRR3]

Yeah, but saying Durant was as good as LeBron in 2012 is really dumb.
He once said Jason Kidd was better than LeBron.

[aj1987]

The Heat were the 5th ranked defense in 2010 before LeBron came over. They always had an elite defense under wade, riley and spo. So your point here doesn't hold any water.
Yes, and the '10 Heat weren't the same as the '12 Heat. Wade missed a quarter of the season and the Heat were still elite defensively. As I said, they had LeBron, who was in DPOY contention and arguably the best defender in the league.


:biggums:

Even hardcore LeBron fans like RRR3 can see how disastrous of a fit Westbrook is alongside LeBron. Add Harden into the mix and they would be one of the worst chemistry having pairings of all time. You can't even be serious here are you?

We aren't talking about '22 WB, clown. We're talking about '12 WB. People said the exact same thing about LeBron and Wade. How both of them are ball dominant and that they wouldn't work, yet, even though Wade was often injured, they still won two titles.

[3ba11]

He once said Jason Kidd was better than LeBron.


Kidd's resume > Lebron's before "the decision" (to form super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams won the majority of years)

Lebron only had 1 Finals run and no all-defense before "the decision"

[ShawkFactory]

Kidd's resume > Lebron's before "the decision" (to form super-teams in a conference that 1-star teams won the majority of years)

Lebron only had 1 Finals run and no all-defense before "the decision"

Stop :lol

[3ba11]

'12 Wade wasn't prime Wade, you autistic little shit. :oldlol:


Stacked cast of snipers? He had Miller and Battier.


Wade was top 5 in everything in 2012 (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), including 26 PER... this was despite making the well-publicized decision to defer to Lebron..

This essentially shut Wade down mentally, and the body followed - we saw "Flash" Wade fall to Pippen-caliber from 13-16', which culminated in his 16' Playoff run that was eerily similar to 94' Pippen's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499290-Heat-were-injured-in-15-but-nearly-made-16-ECF-w-out-Lebron-like-94-Bulls-w-out-MJ).

[3ba11]

Stop :lol


Compared to 07' Lebron, Kidd literally had a half dozen more all-star games, more all-nba, more Finals runs with 1-star teams (2), and he was an all-nba DEFENDER, while Lebron was not.

Lebron had a Finals run in 07' where he averaged 25 ppg, while Iverson averaged 32 ppg on his 01' run, while Kidd was an all-defender for his.

So your brain is just biased in Lebron's favor

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron an underdog to 3 future MVPs?

https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/isP2l.KQvCW2qIeXU8m0og--~B/aD0yNTA7dz0zMzM7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/d99454ecd37d214296091b98de896aef

[ShawkFactory]

Compared to 07' Lebron, Kidd literally had a half dozen more all-star games, more all-nba, more Finals runs with 1-star teams (2), and he was an all-nba DEFENDER, while Lebron was not.

Lebron had a Finals run in 07' where he averaged 25 ppg, while Iverson averaged 32 ppg on his 01' run, while Kidd was an all-defender for his.

So your brain is just biased in Lebron's favor

I never said that Kidd's entire career resume wasn't greater than Lebron's at age 22.

[1987_Lakers]

One things that is being ignored, what happened in the conference finals is a huge reason why Miami were slight underdogs. Miami was coming off a 7 game series vs an old Boston team, while OKC won 4 straight vs the Spurs, for those who don't remember, the Spurs hype was real that year, their chemistry and the way they moved the ball had not been seen in like a decade, so when they lost many people just assumed OKC would win the title. Funny how an OKC team who were basically non ball-movement team knocked them off.

[SouBeachTalents]

02-03 Kidd: 19.8 ppg on 50%TS
91-93 Pippen: 20.3 ppg on 54%TS

[Axe]

One things that is being ignored, what happened in the conference finals is a huge reason why Miami were slight underdogs. Miami was coming off a 7 game series vs an old Boston team, while OKC won 4 straight vs the Spurs, for those who don't remember, the Spurs hype was real that year, their chemistry and the way they moved the ball had not been seen in like a decade, so when they lost many people just assumed OKC would win the title. Funny how an OKC team who were basically non ball-movement team knocked them off.
I find it kinda weird that on the way to kong's three first championships, his teams had game 7s along the way in the postseason. Boston in 2012 ecf, indiana in 2013 ecf, spurs in 2013 finals and then gs in 2016 finals. Only the 2020 disney bubble was different to the rest of them.

[Vino24]

02-03 Kidd: 19.8 ppg on 50%TS
91-93 Pippen: 20.3 ppg on 54%TS

Bang!

[3ba11]

LeBron an underdog to 3 future MVPs?

https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/isP2l.KQvCW2qIeXU8m0og--~B/aD0yNTA7dz0zMzM7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/d99454ecd37d214296091b98de896aef



2012

WADE....... 26.3 PER... 7.9 BPM... led 2 teams to Finals (06', 11')
DURANT.... 26.2 PER... 7.0 BPM... led 1 teams to Finals (12')


^^^ that was despite Wade making the well-publicized decision to hand the team over to Lebron in 2012..

In 2010, Lebron asked the league: "who has the best PER aside from me?".... and he teamed up with that guy - Wade had the #2 PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 in 2010... That's like Kobe teaming up with Tmac or Magic with Bird... and Wade remained top 5 in everything through 2012.

This kind of "not 6, not 7' talent is why Lebron had the preseason favorite from 2011-2016, so he underachieved the expectation by falling to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle.

Ultimately, Lebron had juggernaut #1 sidekicks that no one is supposed to have - only Shaq, Magic or Curry can say they had juggernaut sidekicks that compare to the caliber of Lebron's - however, only Lebron's sidekicks provided the maximum help possible, aka outplaying league MVP's or FMVP's like 11' Bosh over Rose... or Kyrie over Curry... Or Wade outplayed Dirk.. Or AD demolishing Jokic..

[1987_Lakers]

Why did OKC who were dead last in assists knock off the Spurs who were the best passing team since maybe the '02 Kings??

[Vino24]

MJ played with a bigger stronger more efficient Jason Kidd (Pippen)

[SouBeachTalents]

1996 Pippen: 21 PER, 6.3 BPM
1996 Kukoc: 20.4 PER, 5.4 BPM

1996 Kemp: 22.6 PER, 2.8 BPM
1996 Payton: 19.6 PER, 4.6 BPM

Actually, this one will do too

LeBron: 27.4 PER, 8.9 BPM
Kobe: 22.9 PER, 4.55 BPM

LeBron has the 2nd highest PER & BPM of all time. So good to see by 3ball's own calculation, he's a top 2 player of all time :applause:

[3ba11]

02-03 Kidd: 19.8 ppg on 50%TS
91-93 Pippen: 20.3 ppg on 54%TS


Exactly... That's how weak the East was... The 00's East was won by 1-star teams for 5 of the 9 years from 01-09' (Kidd, Iverson, Lebron Dwight), so that's the majority of years - it's the only conference in history that was won by a bunch of 1-star teams, yet that's the conference that Lebron formed super-teams in.

It's weird how 86' Jordan and his 30-win eight seed (the worst record that anyone had to carry in the playoffs) get criticized for losing to the 86' Celtics, aka "empty stats", but Lebron's 38/8/8 against Orlando as a historic favorite and best team in the league is given a pass..

The reality is that Jordan had the learn how to score more strategically (aka score later in shot-clocks after working the defense with ball movement), while Lebron's high scoring was too ball-dominant, so he can't beat underdog teams like Orlando, let alone real Finals teams..

The difference is that Jordan's game evolved and he eventually learned how to win, while Lebron didn't..

Lebron never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolved around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles or employ a good brand of ball (low assist teams).. Since his game doesn't elevate teammates or use good brand of ball, he couldn't win organically and had to team-hop.

Btw, to address the Kidd-Pippen stats that you posted - Kidd is a top 5 point guard of all-time, while Pippen is nowhere near - most of the evidence infact shows that Pippen is an Iggy-level player or Shawn Marion (low floor.. often not a scoring option and mid-tier playmaker).

[Axe]

Exactly... That's how weak the East was... The 00's East was won by 1-star teams for 5 of the 9 years from 01-09' (Kidd, Iverson, Lebron Dwight), so that's the majority of years - it's the only conference in history that was won by a bunch of 1-star teams, yet that's the conference that Lebron formed super-teams in.

It's weird how 86' Jordan and his 30-win eight seed (the worst record that anyone had to carry in the playoffs) get criticized for losing to the 86' Celtics, aka "empty stats", but Lebron's 38/8/8 against Orlando as a historic favorite and best team in the league is given a pass..

The reality is that Jordan had the learn how to score more strategically (aka score later in shot-clocks after working the defense with ball movement), while Lebron's high scoring was too ball-dominant, so he can't beat underdog teams like Orlando, let alone real Finals teams..

The difference is that Jordan's game evolved and he eventually learned how to win, while Lebron didn't..

Lebron never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolved around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles or employ a good brand of ball (low assist teams).. Since his game doesn't elevate teammates or use good brand of ball, he couldn't win organically and had to team-hop.

Btw, to address the Kidd-Pippen stats that you posted - Kidd is a top 5 point guard of all-time, while Pippen is nowhere near - most of the evidence infact shows that Pippen is an Iggy-level player or Shawn Marion (low floor.. often not a scoring option and mid-tier playmaker).
No pip?

[3ba11]

1996 Pippen: 21 PER, 6.3 BPM
1996 Kukoc: 20.4 PER, 5.4 BPM





Yes Pippen and Kukoc are similar-caliber players

Kukoc led the Bulls in BPM for the 94' Playoffs and was #1 option in the clutch






1996 Kemp: 22.6 PER, 2.8 BPM
1996 Payton: 19.6 PER, 4.6 BPM





Yes Kemp ragdolled Malone with 20 on 69% in the 96' WCF to carry the Sonics to the Finals, where he nearly won FMVP from MJ..

So PER once again does a decent job of showing which players on on the same level - Kemp is obviously on Payton's level based on prime performance.





Actually, this one will do too

LeBron: 27.4 PER, 8.9 BPM
Kobe: 22.9 PER, 4.55 BPM





You're comparing entire careers and saying it's the same thing as comparing individual seasons to each other?

Having some integrity, smh






LeBron has the 2nd highest PER & BPM of all time. So good to see by 3ball's own calculation, he's a top 2 player of all time :applause:





All-time rankings involve more than stats because we're usually comparing 1st options where their skillset dictates brand of ball - Lebron's brand of ball is simply poor - that's why he always has these underwhelming teams that underachieve the initial talent expectation.

[3ba11]

Why did OKC who were dead last in assists knock off the Spurs who were the best passing team since maybe the '02 Kings??


OKC had a player that produced elite offense, efficiency and clutch WHILE DEFEATING MAX DEFENSIVE ATTENTION (carrying the scoring load)

This can defeat greater teamwork and/or talent - just ask the 90's Jazz, Lakers, Suns, or many other Bulls' opponents that moved the ball better than the Jordan-heavy Bulls - Jordan's Bulls averaged 8th in assists for his career, which is the same as the typical champion.. Otoh, Lebron's teams average 15th for his career, which is far below the typical champ (harder to win that way, aka needs moar halp)

Btw, it took the Spurs a few years to revamp their style back to the cutting edge-caliber after their 07' title, but they figured it out by 2013 (this organic journey/learning is what Kawhi took to the Raptors) - and the Warriors actually stole elements of the Spurs' style and took the strategy to the next level thanks in part to their unprecedented shooting ability.

[ShawkFactory]

Having some integrity, smh

:kobe:

[aj1987]

Wade was top 5 in everything in 2012 (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), including 26 PER... this was despite making the well-publicized decision to defer to Lebron..

This essentially shut Wade down mentally, and the body followed - we saw "Flash" Wade fall to Pippen-caliber from 13-16', which culminated in his 16' Playoff run that was eerily similar to 94' Pippen's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499290-Heat-were-injured-in-15-but-nearly-made-16-ECF-w-out-Lebron-like-94-Bulls-w-out-MJ).

That still wasn't prime Wade and go kill yourself, you waste of oxygen.

[3ba11]

OKC had a player that produced elite offense, efficiency and clutch WHILE DEFEATING MAX DEFENSIVE ATTENTION (carrying the scoring load)

Carry-jobs like this can defeat greater teamwork and/or talent - just ask the 90's Jazz, Lakers, Suns, or many other Bulls' opponents that moved the ball better than the Jordan-heavy Bulls - Jordan's Bulls averaged 8th in assists for his career, which is the same as the typical champion.. Otoh, Lebron's teams average 15th for his career, which is far below the typical champ (harder to win that way, aka needs moar halp)

Btw, it took the Spurs a few years to revamp their style back to the cutting edge-caliber after their 07' title, but they figured it out by 2013 (this organic journey/learning is what Kawhi took to the Raptors) - and the Warriors actually stole elements of the Spurs' style and took the strategy to the next level thanks in part to their unprecedented shooting ability.


1987Lakers - hope that helped explain why the high-assist Spurs lost to the low-assist OKC in 2012

[WhiteKyrie]

2012

WADE....... 26.3 PER... 7.9 BPM... led 2 teams to Finals (06', 11')
DURANT.... 26.2 PER... 7.0 BPM... led 1 teams to Finals (12')


^^^ that was despite Wade making the well-publicized decision to hand the team over to Lebron in 2012..

In 2010, Lebron asked the league: "who has the best PER aside from me?".... and he teamed up with that guy - Wade had the #2 PER, BPM, VORP and WS/48 in 2010... That's like Kobe teaming up with Tmac or Magic with Bird... and Wade remained top 5 in everything through 2012.

This kind of "not 6, not 7' talent is why Lebron had the preseason favorite from 2011-2016, so he underachieved the expectation by falling to Finals underdog or loser every year except the Ray Allen miracle.

Ultimately, Lebron had juggernaut #1 sidekicks that no one is supposed to have - only Shaq, Magic or Curry can say they had juggernaut sidekicks that compare to the caliber of Lebron's - however, only Lebron's sidekicks provided the maximum help possible, aka outplaying league MVP's or FMVP's like 11' Bosh over Rose... or Kyrie over Curry... Or Wade outplayed Dirk.. Or AD demolishing Jokic..
Good Points

[StrongLurk]

Oreo O's were a great cereal.

Damn right.