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View Full Version : Prime Pau Gasol was a mother****in' problem



Im Still Ballin
02-12-2022, 03:19 PM
I was looking back at some old ISH threads from 2008/2009/2010 and there were legitimate threads discussing whether Pau or Kobe was the MVP of the team. Here's one thread in question


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?112670-Is-Pau-Gasol-the-true-MVP-of-the-Lakers-right-now

Kobe Bryant 24/5/4 on 46% shooting

Pau Gasol 18/9/3 on 57% shooting!

Pau stats would probably be much higher if they fed him more when he was hot and made more set plays for him. More importantly he has taken very few games off while Kobe has completely lost his shot lately and has been torched defensively. Pau has been like a rock for the Lakers and Bynum too for that matter after about the first 10 adjustment games coming off the injury. Kobe has been superstar brilliant in a lot, if not most games but he has lost the consistency you would expect from a 30 year old veteran. Am I wrong in thinking that right now Pau is playing like the Laker's MVP and he needs to get more touches, unless it's one of the games that Kobe has displayed that he has found his shot for that game?


Some of the comments in response to that thread included:


He was awesome last night. It's close. And too think that Pau's touches are severely limited due to Bynum's presence. Which also keeps Pau having to play farther away from the basket. He is much better low down on the block, even though he can hit the mid range jumper.


I think so. Its amazing to me all i see here are kobe this and kobe that, and very few of you give Gasol respect. Even Bynum gets more hype here than Gasol, when Gasol is so high% and consistent for you guys game to game. I swear if you all lost Gasol you'd be way less of a threat, than just losing Bynum, and i'd even go as far to say Kobe to a degree.

Even non Laker fans here hate on Gasol for some reason. But every time i watch them Gasol is just such a low post threat with his longness defensively, offensively by just standing there, and is always shooting high% with limited shots. Meanwhile Kobe will go like 5 - 14 or something and be the talk of the board :ohwell:

Gasol could do more offensively at a higher % if focused on than Kobe imo. He gets way better shots in general, and everything he misses tends to bounce around the top of the rim and fall off, but those short little hooks right in front of the basket i'd take most of the time over anyone's jumpers including Kobe, unless he's feeling it. Not saying he's better than Kobe but i swear he's not that far behind, and gets little to no respect because people ride Kobe and Bynum's nuts so hard here :hammerhead:


Pau has been the best Laker this year easily. He has been the most consistent player in both their wins and losses. As of today, yes he is the Lakers MVP. Granted having the threat of Kobe on the floor helps Gasol and everyone, but Gasol has been phenomenal. His jumper is dropping and he is abusing guys in the post. Rebounding extremely wel and running the floor well.

Not concerned with Kobe's slow start though. He hasnt been exerting a ton of energy, so i am hoping he can be fresh the 2nd half of the season. I do believe he will turn it up next year and will once again become the Lakers MVP. But as of now, hands down Gasol has been the best Laker


I posted something like this in another thread a week or so before. Who's the MVP/better player aside, I'd say a Pau injury would hurt the Lakers more than a Kobe one.
Opinions?


I have no problem with anyone saying Pau has been the Lakers MVP.

Pau- 18.0 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.4 apg, 0.9 bpg, 57.1 FG%, 77.6 FT%, 12.0 FGA, 34.9 mpg

Kobe- 24.5 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.5 spg, 45.8 FG%, 27.7 3P%, 87.6 FT%, 19.2 FGA, 34.0 mpg

I believe that Kobe is their best player but Pau has arguably been more valuable this year.

Pau's only competition right now for the title of best low post player is Tim Duncan. Pau is the best passing big man in the league. He's extremely unselfish and he's very efficient. He's also an excellent rebounder and one of the best shooting 7 footers in the NBA.

The only problem I have with Pau being in the discussion for league MVP is that he's not even the first option on his team. He needs WAY more than 12 shots per game though.


Pau is currently playing like the best player on the Lakers.


Of course Pau is team MVP. If it wasnt for the attention he drew from the defense with the double and triple teaming, Kobe wouldn't be able to just catch and finish and work with the single coverage he sees as a result. If it wasnt for Gasols presence opening up the lane I doubt Kobe could get more than 25ppg. Its easy to score when the entire defense of the other team is planned around Pau.

And even still Kobe only shoots 48% this season with single coverage and the lane wide open from Gasol's presence, while Pau is shooting 57% being the entire focus of the defense with double and triple teams. AND still creating a lot of Kobe's shots for him, along with the rest of team.

Add in Gasol finishing the games for us, taking the clutch shots, etc. and its a no-brainer.

I could keep going, but you get the point. This is obviously just one snapshot in time, but I do feel we somewhat underrate how good he was in his prime years. I think him falling off hard post-2010 in LA had a lot to do with that. From 2008 to 2010, he was an amazing talent. He could get you 20 and 10, block 2 shots, shoot 55% FG and 78-79% FT.

I think this thread is to remind us that there were legitimately moments when people were questioning who was the best player on that team. That's how good Pau was.

3ba11
02-12-2022, 03:25 PM
Sounds like Pau was the far lower producer and the team was successful (2/3) with Kobe as the #1 option that faced max defensive attention.. Pau was never good enough to achieve elite production while facing maximum defensive attention.. Almost no one can carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention) on the Finals level, not even Lebron, so Pau is lucky to have Kobe carry him to titles..

Pau was 1x all-star when he joined Kobe, while Bosh was 6x all-star before joining Lebron.. this demonstrates how much more Kobe carried his team... Kobe's high scoring was achieved via jumpshooting, which allows more ball movement, which needs less help

Im Still Ballin
02-12-2022, 03:29 PM
Here's another thread praising Pau as the best low post guy in the game:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?125195-Pau-Gasol-best-low-post-player-in-the-game

When it comes to offense, dude is a beast. When he's on the block, dude has a variety of different sweeps/running hooks and he does it wit both hands. he scores almost everytime he does that post up->finish with the left hand. Along with that, he also has a pretty automatic mid range jumper and shoot a high % from the FT line. He also has the highest Offensive Rating in the entire league


Gasol's Fg% compared to other top PF's

Dirk- 48%

Duncan- 50%

West- 46%

KG- 53%

Pau Gasol- 57%



Gasol = efficient


Tonnes more awesome comments:


He's probably the best post scorer in the game.


I dont know about best but it does seem like everytime he has the ball in the low post he'll get an assist or finish himself:applause:


He's incredibly skilled down there, can finish with both hands equally well, can face up or post up, and has THE quickest first step of any player over 6'10" in the league. Viciously underrated by many Kobe fans who have no idea what a luxury it is to have a 20/10/55+% FG level guy who can do all that plus is an exceptional passer, good post defender and shotblocker, and can play the low or high post and pick & roll game.

Walton is another guy who gets terribly underrated. Dude is always doing great things on the floor that helps the team win. I'd take Walton over a guy like Sczzcerbiak or Kapono any day of the week.


I would be more inclined to say the best high post player in the league. His rang, mobility, and passing make him very effective from the high post.


Gasol is a ridiculously good player and the perfect team guy. He'll play any role. When Bynum started emerging he deferred to him and had no problem playing as the 3rd option and playing at PF. When Bynum got injured he instantly stepped up, switched to center and not only took the role of 2nd option, but played better than most 1st options.

In the 22 games without Bynum Gasol has averaged over 21 and 10 with 4 assists per game, 1.3 blocks and 1 steal per game while shooting 60% from the floor and almost 80% from the line. The Lakers have gone 17-5 during that time.

He can do so many different things on the floor. He's the best passing big man in the league, he's an excellent mid-range shooter, he's easily a top 5 low post scorer, he hits his free throws at a high rate, he's a good rebounder and he'll block shots. He's been the Lakers most consistent player this season.

Im Still Ballin
02-12-2022, 03:32 PM
Sounds like Pau was the far lower producer and the team was successful (2/3) with Kobe as the #1 option that faced max defensive attention.. Pau was never good enough to achieve elite production while facing maximum defensive attention.. Almost no one can carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention) on the Finals level, not even Lebron, so Pau is lucky to have Kobe carry him to titles..

Pau was 1x all-star when he joined Kobe, while Bosh was 6x all-star before joining Lebron.. this demonstrates how much more Kobe carried his team... Kobe's high scoring was achieved via jumpshooting, which allows more ball movement, which needs less help

Bosh made an All-NBA team ONCE in his entire career. 2nd team in 2006-2007.

Gasol made it five times.

3ba11
02-12-2022, 03:33 PM
Here's another thread praising Pau as the best low post guy in the game:



Tonnes more awesome comments:


Lakers needed 30 ppg from the #1 option and team-leading assists

Pau couldn't achieve elite production let alone carry the scoring load (defeat max defensive attention) and lead the assist

ArbitraryWater
02-12-2022, 03:36 PM
a PROBLEM bro.

3ba11
02-12-2022, 03:36 PM
Bosh made an All-NBA team ONCE in his entire career. 2nd team in 2006-2007.

Gasol made it five times.


Gasol was nothing before Kobe, while Bosh was All-NBA and 6x all-star before Lebron

So Kobe needed a player that was less than Bosh to be 2nd option, while Lebron needed Bosh at 3rd option.. 3rd options don't get All-NBA, whereas Kobe's greatness gave Pau all-nba by making him a winning 2nd option

Kobe needed less help because his high scoring was achieved via elite jumpshooting skill, which allows ball movement and therefore less help needed than Lebron

LAL
02-12-2022, 03:39 PM
https://www.talkbasket.net/79985-paul-pierce-says-kobe-bryant-made-pau-gasol-a-hall-of-famer



Paul Pierce says Kobe Bryant made Pau Gasol a ‘Hall of Famer’


“We had four All-Stars. He (Kobe Bryant) had two, he had Pau Gasol, but he toughened Pau Gasol up. Because that first Finals, we ran through Pau Gasol. Kobe made him a Hall of Famer,” the legend of the Boston Celtics told Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson on the All The Smoke podcast.

ShawkFactory
02-12-2022, 03:40 PM
Idk about a "problem" in a sense that he would dominant an NBA game and lead a team. But on a championship team that preaches ball movement and overall smart basketball he was perfect. The classic Euro-style guy who was unselfish, made all of the right plays, passes, rotations, etc.

3ba11
02-12-2022, 03:44 PM
Idk about a "problem" in a sense that he would dominant an NBA game and lead a team. But on a championship team that preaches ball movement and overall smart basketball he was perfect. The classic Euro-style guy who was unselfish, made all of the right plays, passes, rotations, etc.


Bosh was easily superior - he was All-NBA and 6x all-star before Lebron, while Pau was literally nothing before Kobe

But 3rd options don't get All-NBA, whereas Kobe win with Pau at 2nd option, so Pau was all-nba...

Kobe needed less help because his high scoring was achieved via elite jumpshooting skill, which allows ball movement and therefore less help needed than Lebron

ShawkFactory
02-12-2022, 03:48 PM
Bosh was easily superior - he was All-NBA and 6x all-star before Lebron, while Pau was literally nothing before Kobe

But 3rd options don't get All-NBA, whereas Kobe win with Pau at 2nd option, so Pau was all-nba...

Kobe needed less help because his high scoring was achieved via elite jumpshooting skill, which allows ball movement and therefore less help needed than Lebron

I didn't say anything about Bosh.

SouBeachTalents
02-12-2022, 03:49 PM
Gasol was nothing before Kobe, while Bosh was All-NBA and 6x all-star before Lebron

So Kobe needed a player that was less than Bosh to be 2nd option, while Lebron needed Bosh at 3rd option.. 3rd options don't get All-NBA, whereas Kobe's greatness gave Pau all-nba by making him a winning 2nd option

Kobe needed less help because his high scoring was achieved via elite jumpshooting skill, which allows ball movement and therefore less help needed than Lebron
Completely untrue. There are several guys made All-NBA more than once who were primarily 3rd options.

Parish
Worthy
Rodman
Manu
Dray

And none of those guys had the luxury of having their own team for 7 years like Bosh did.

John_Connor
02-12-2022, 03:50 PM
Bosh was easily superior - he was All-NBA and 6x all-star before Lebron, while Pau was literally nothing before Kobe

But 3rd options don't get All-NBA, whereas Kobe win with Pau at 2nd option, so Pau was all-nba...

Kobe needed less help because his high scoring was achieved via elite jumpshooting skill, which allows ball movement and therefore less help needed than Lebron

https://voca.ro/15MTrW7e5dfo

3ba11
02-12-2022, 03:55 PM
Completely untrue. There are several guys made All-NBA more than once who were primarily 3rd options.

Parish
Worthy
Rodman
Manu
Dray

And none of those guys had the luxury of having their own team for 7 years like Bosh did.


It's rare or non-existent for guys to get All-NBA while playing 3rd option - so Bosh didn't get All-NBA with Lebron, while Pau did as 2nd option alongside Kobe - Kobe needed less help (Pau at 2nd option), so Pau was elevated to all-nba - 2nd option champs are frequently All-NBA (and therefore among the most overrated players)

Im Still Ballin
02-12-2022, 04:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIdpx7-gims


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kwhrg6MSzg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKCqNL7Jnpo

ShawkFactory
02-12-2022, 04:05 PM
I actually think Bosh and Pau is a decent argument as #1s on their team. I don't really consider the all star appearances to mean anything in this situation. Bosh had the shine being drafted between Melo and Wade in that great class, plus being on team USA in 06 and 08. And he was a smooth athlete who could make exciting plays.

Pau was a euro transfer who did win ROY but played in the smallest market in the NBA. Plus his game wasn't a sexy and he himself never really said a word. Add in that he WAS an all star in 06, and probably would have been in 07 and 08 as well if it wasn't for some injuries + a total depletion of the team. On top of that, at the time in the West you had Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, and Amare pretty much being penciled in. The East wasn't as tough to claim a spot.

However the advanced numbers show that Pau was just as effective, if not more so. He was a stronger (or at least smarter) defender and always was a great passer. Bosh didn't really become much of a defender until Miami.

Just different styles.

3ba11
02-12-2022, 04:09 PM
https://voca.ro/15MTrW7e5dfo


https://vocaroo.com/13HOvTWn8scx

John_Connor
02-12-2022, 04:24 PM
https://vocaroo.com/13HOvTWn8scx

:roll:

John_Connor
02-12-2022, 04:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbgKEjNBHqM&list=RDPbgKEjNBHqM

Bankaii
02-12-2022, 04:59 PM
It's rare or non-existent for guys to get All-NBA while playing 3rd option - so Bosh didn't get All-NBA with Lebron, while Pau did as 2nd option alongside Kobe - Kobe needed less help (Pau at 2nd option), so Pau was elevated to all-nba - 2nd option champs are frequently All-NBA (and therefore among the most overrated players)
Why do your arguments always contradict one another?

The West was “brutal” while the East was “D-league” right? Same for you saying 2000s>2010s.
So shouldn’t Gasol’s achievements count for 10x as much as Bosh’s? Making the Allstar in the East should be a cakewalk, shouldn’t it?

zeerghit
02-12-2022, 06:11 PM
Bosh was easily superior - he was All-NBA and 6x all-star before Lebron, while Pau was literally nothing before Kobe

But 3rd options don't get All-NBA, whereas Kobe win with Pau at 2nd option, so Pau was all-nba...

Kobe needed less help because his high scoring was achieved via elite jumpshooting skill, which allows ball movement and therefore less help needed than Lebron

the guy won everything as first option with spain so f*ck off u fake b*tch
and anyone who even thinks AD > Gasol can f*ck off aswell

1987_Lakers
02-12-2022, 10:55 PM
Indeed he was OP.

kawhileonard2
02-13-2022, 12:07 AM
He dominated in that era.

John_Connor
02-13-2022, 12:08 AM
Indeed he was OP.

where did kobe touch you

Im Still Ballin
02-13-2022, 01:13 AM
A complete PF.

houston
02-13-2022, 01:15 AM
3 ba11 is on point with Pau Gasol stuff. Man Gasol was just one time all-star before he got with the Lakers and never won playoff game. Of course any MVP level player just need an all-star quality player to win in the NBA.

ClipperRevival
02-13-2022, 01:45 AM
I watched all of Gasol's time in LA.

He was a talent. Fluid, coordinated, amazing touch, could run the floor, could pass somewhat and could get you a basket in the post. He had one of the best off hands ever with his turn around left hook from like 5-8 feet. But at the same time, every Laker fans knows, he was soft. He hated contact and he would disappear for stretches.

I really don't know what the point is. If it's to insinuate he was the alpha? LOL. He was a great 2nd fiddle but Kobe was ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, "the man". Defenses focused on him. I don't care what a stat or two saids.

Im Still Ballin
02-13-2022, 01:55 AM
I watched all of Gasol's time in LA.

He was a talent. Fluid, coordinated, amazing touch, could run the floor, could pass somewhat and could get you a basket in the post. He had one of the best off hands ever with his turn around left hook from like 5-8 feet. But at the same time, every Laker fans knows, he was soft. He hated contact and he would disappear for stretches.

I really don't know what the point is. If it's to insinuate he was the alpha? LOL. He was a great 2nd fiddle but Kobe was ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, "the man". Defenses focused on him. I don't care what a stat or two saids.

Not suggesting that big homie. Just that he was a damn good player between 2008-2010. The simple fact that it was a legitimate discussion that he was more than a sidekick is all I'm illustrating. That there were times when people even entertained the idea.

TheGoatest
02-13-2022, 03:09 AM
I still remember when he was all-NBA 2nd team at the age of 34, after he left the Lakers. He was also an all-star the following season at the age of 35. What a beast. Yet he was the ultimate scapegoat whenever the Lakers lost in his last seasons there. I remember him having 20 rebound games and they would blame him for the Lakers losing, because he was soft. Soft while grabbing 20 rebounds.

Round Mound
02-13-2022, 04:04 AM
Him, Tim Duncan and Yao....where the last true post play big men players in the nba in their time.

Gasol was a great post player, a great passer for his size and a good rebounder.

Elosha
02-13-2022, 08:38 AM
https://vocaroo.com/13HOvTWn8scx

Hey nice recording and not bad arguments. You got a great talk sports talk radio kind of voice, reminds me a little bit of Shannon Sharpe. And listening to your voice makes me feel more confident that you're giving a true history of your personal background, as a former college player. Kuddos, and I think it would be nice if you recorded and posted more vocaroos.

Phoenix
02-13-2022, 09:04 AM
Bosh was easily superior - he was All-NBA and 6x all-star before Lebron, while Pau was literally nothing before Kobe



Bosh wouldn't have 6 all-star teams in the 00s West with the likes of Dirk, Duncan, Garnett as PF mainstays for most of the decade, with Amare getting a few nods on those Suns squads, so all-star game selections is a moot point.

Also 89 Pippen.