Nash could've teamed up with Wade/Bosh to win titles and make people say he's > Isiah

[3ba11]

But he has character.

Only a low-character bum would try to fool people and manufacture a resume like that

And only a public that is dumber than a box or rocks would fall for it and think that someone is the best ever who can't win organically (reduces everyone to spot-up shooter), and therefore must seek talent-based winning/all-star team strategy/super-teams (team-hopping)

[1987_Lakers]

He joined a Lakers team with Kobe, Gasol & Dwight.

[3ba11]

He joined a Lakers team with Kobe, Gasol & Dwight.


When he was 80 after a career of trying to win legitimately.. Not anywhere near his prime

Imagine:

1) the greatest basketball player ever... 2) needing to team up with all the best players in the league for super-teams

^^^ both things cannot be true at the same time, so Lebron is a fraud.. a literal con man.. it's fascinating to see him fool everyone

[ArbitraryWater]

When he was 80 after a career of trying to win legitimately.. Not anywhere near his prime

He was actually an all-star when he joined the Lakers.

[1987_Lakers]

When he was 80 after a career of trying to win legitimately.. Not anywhere near his prime

And Nash was 36 when that Miami team was formed, you could easily say "He was 80 and trying to win legitimately" if he did join that Miami team.

[3ba11]

He was actually an all-star when he joined the Lakers.


Shaq was all-star MVP in 2009 before joining Lebron in 2010

Again, Nash was 80 years old after a career of trying to win legitimately.. Not anywhere near his prime

And the larger point is that Lebron manufactured his resume by teaming up, and the manufactured ring count fools people into thinking he's better than he is - Nash could've done this, but he has CHARACTER and isn't a little bitch

If Lebron didn't team-hop, he would be just another career-losing ball-dominator just like Nash, Luka, Westbrook, CP3, etc

[iamgine]

What about if Jordan didn't have Pippen? :lebronamazed:

[3ba11]

What about if Jordan didn't have Pippen? :lebronamazed:


Pippen was a 7 ppg rookie and only 1 player, while Lebron obtained multiple, ready-made superstars

Lebron's colluding provided Year 1 favorites (2011, 2015), which is the easiest path possible and much harder than developing favorite status over many years from a lottery roster (organic)




What about if Jordan didn't have Pippen? :lebronamazed:


Teams win organically by developing a better brand of basketball than their peers (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls) - so Lebron never learned how to win (brand of basketball) and had to team-hop (talent-based winning.. all-star team strategy)..

He can't develop good brand because his frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players (thereby needing ready-made stars).

Unfortunately, Lebron never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so he never learned to elevate teammates beyond spot-up roles.. Since his skillset can't elevate teammates or brand, he can't win organically and must pursue a talent-based approach (team-hopping for super-teams.. all-star team strategy).




What about if Jordan didn't have Pippen? :lebronamazed:


Jordan would've won more if Pippen didn't have the lowest peak capability of any notable 90's sidekick (22/5) and if he wasn't the only sidekick that never led his team in a series (never a 1b).

For example - in the 97' WCF, John Stockton carried the Jazz to the Finals by averaging 21/11 and hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face... Every notable sidekick in the 90's including guys like Terry Porter had many series where they led their team and completely dominated..

So Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that never led a playoff series (never a 1b), while also having the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)..

Obviously, Jordan would've won more with a sidekick that could dominate or be a 1b and had better peak capability.. Pippen was a low-producer and historic bed-wetter in the playoffs because he was just an ordinary player and producer - he's 0/6 in reaching Horry-level in the Finals (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals).. only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size (0/6).. So Jordan won 6 Finals with a sidekick that never reached Horry-level from the 95' Finals - this provides an idea of Pippen's true caliber without Jordan inflating his resume

[1987_Lakers]

What about if Jordan didn't have Pippen? :lebronamazed:

:lebronamazed:

[Hey Yo]

Why didnt MJ refute the signing of the best rebounder/defender in the league? I thought Rodman was hated by MJ and Pippen?

Why did MJ make an easier path for himself by stacking the team?

[Rysio]

Yea LeBron team hopped but it was far from easy for him winning any rings in 12 it took a crazy performance from LeBron just to force game 7 almost lost in 13, 16. On paper it was supposed to be easy but I think he earned at least 2 rings.

[Full Court]

I'm pretty sure Lebron actually posts on here under the screen names TheGoatest/TheCorporation.

[Airupthere]

The LeWarRoom exhibits exactly what differentiates Lebron from everyone else. :oldlol:

[GimmeThat]

Only a low-character bum would try to fool people and manufacture a resume like that




so you're saying only a low-character bum would believe that if Nash had teamed up with Wade/Bosh to win titles, it'd make him > Isiah

[jlip]

He had already played with Dirk and Finley in Dallas and with Amare, Marion, and Joe Johnson in Phoenix.

[3ba11]

He had already played with Dirk and Finley in Dallas and with Amare, Marion, and Joe Johnson in Phoenix.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/ZypWBI.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/5G4JES.gif

[3ba11]

Why didnt MJ refute the signing of the best rebounder/defender in the league? I thought Rodman was hated by MJ and Pippen?

Why did MJ make an easier path for himself by stacking the team?


Rodman was a losing outcast that no one wanted in 96' after the debacle with MVP Robinson in 95'

So MJ saved his career

Rodman repaid MJ by averaging 3/8 on 35% for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs (4/8 in the Finals).

Rodman wouldn't even be playable on a Lebron team..

[3ba11]

He had already played with Dirk and Finley in Dallas and with Amare, Marion, and Joe Johnson in Phoenix.


Super-team = 3 perennial all-star first options

Only Lebron had super-teams

until 2017.... and even then, Klay isn't a 1st option

Lebron literally hand-picked the preseason favorite from 2011-2016 but turned these preseason favorite into Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years - that's the definition of underachieving the expectation.. (edit: except the Ray Allen miracle in 13')

[1987_Lakers]

Klay would have been 1st option in the 90's. Reggie Miller type impact with defense. Reggie Miller took MJ to 7 games in the ECF, this is the competition MJ was going up against. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Klay would have been 1st option in the 90's. Reggie Miller type impact with defense. Reggie Miller took MJ to 7 games in the ECF, this is the competition MJ was going up against. :oldlol:


Miller was Curry, not Klay

Klay skillset is stand-still threes - this doesn't compare to Reggie Miller, who was a pure scorer that took 3 times as many free throws as Klay and twice as many 2's

Miller's style was a great brand of ball like Curry, so he won with less just like Curry - Miller never had an all-star teammate, but still had many deep, legendary runs - this includes nearly beating the MJ Bulls and nearly going 7 with Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the Finals.. Klay is a role player by comparison and nowhere near this

[ShawkFactory]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/ZypWBI.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2021/5G4JES.gif

Kinda negates the whole “Jordan won 6 rings with the least talent ever”. I believe you call it 6 Dirk rings.

[1987_Lakers]

Miller was Curry, not Klay

Klay skillset is stand-still threes - this doesn't compare to Reggie Miller, who was a pure scorer that took 3 times as many free throws as Klay and twice as many 2's

Miller's style was a great brand of ball like Curry, so he won with less just like Curry - Miller never had an all-star teammate, but still had many deep, legendary runs - this includes nearly beating the MJ Bulls and nearly going 7 with Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the Finals.. Klay is a role player by comparison and nowhere near this

Reggie Miller, who hovered around 20 ppg from '94-'98 a pure scorer? lmao.

He made a deep playoff run in '98 to play Chicago because he beat a 47 win Cavs team and a 43 win Knicks team.

Put that Pacers team in the West in say from 2011-2016 they wouldn't even sniff WCF.

[3ba11]

Kinda negates the whole “Jordan won 6 rings with the least talent ever”. I believe you call it 6 Dirk rings.


The chart shows that the Bulls had zero offensive help - the 96' Bulls expected offensive BPM was 1.6 - that's lottery-level compared to everyone else on that chart

And the defensive component of the chart is invalid because it uses defensive BPM, which is an inaccurate stat (only offensive BPM is valid).

So the chart is only good for the offensive projection, which shows the Bulls were a 1-man team with 6 rings that were bigger carry-jobs then Dirk's ring.. Btw, notice that the chart shows Lebron's teams underachieved the OFFENSIVE expectation, not the defensive

[GimmeThat]

Miller was Curry, not Klay

Klay skillset is stand-still threes - this doesn't compare to Reggie Miller, who was a pure scorer that took 3 times as many free throws as Klay and twice as many 2's

Miller's style was a great brand of ball like Curry, so he won with less just like Curry - Miller never had an all-star teammate, but still had many deep, legendary runs - this includes nearly beating the MJ Bulls and nearly going 7 with Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the Finals.. Klay is a role player by comparison and nowhere near this

so you're saying having low WS makes a player greater

[GimmeThat]

The chart shows that the Bulls had zero offensive help - the 96' Bulls expected offensive BPM was 1.6 - that's lottery-level compared to everyone else on that chart

And the defensive component of the chart is invalid because it uses defensive BPM, which is an inaccurate stat (only offensive BPM is valid).

So the chart is only good for the offensive projection, which shows the Bulls were a 1-man team with 6 rings that were bigger carry-jobs then Dirk's ring.. Btw, notice that the chart shows Lebron's teams underachieved the OFFENSIVE expectation, not the defensive

which part of the chart said 1-man?

[3ba11]

so you're saying having low WS makes a player greater


Klay has the lowest rate of WS (WS/48)


Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts

Miller (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)............ 18.4 PER.. 3.5 bpm.. 0.176 ws/48.. 66.4 vorp on 47,619 min.. 18/3/3 on 61.4 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

Miller (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)............ 19.5 PER.. 5.0 bpm.. 0.180 ws/48.... 9.4 vorp on 5308 min.. 21/3/3 on 60.4 ts

[GimmeThat]

Rodman was a losing outcast that no one wanted in 96' after the debacle with MVP Robinson in 95'

So MJ saved his career

Rodman repaid MJ by averaging 3/8 on 35% for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs (4/8 in the Finals).

Rodman wouldn't even be playable on a Lebron team..

if MJ had a job for Rodman (saved Rodman's career), you're literally saying the Bulls were in fact stacked

[GimmeThat]

Klay has the lowest rate of WS (WS/48)


Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts

Miller (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)............ 18.4 PER.. 3.5 bpm.. 0.176 ws/48.. 66.4 vorp on 47,619 min.. 18/3/3 on 61.4 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

Miller (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)............ 19.5 PER.. 5.0 bpm.. 0.180 ws/48.... 9.4 vorp on 5308 min.. 21/3/3 on 60.4 ts

so Miller/Curry's brand of ball turns spot up shooters into bench players.?

[ShawkFactory]

The chart shows that the Bulls had zero offensive help - the 96' Bulls expected offensive BPM was 1.6 - that's lottery-level compared to everyone else on that chart

And the defensive component of the chart is invalid because it uses defensive BPM, which is an inaccurate stat (only offensive BPM is valid).

So the chart is only good for the offensive projection, which shows the Bulls were a 1-man team with 6 rings that were bigger carry-jobs then Dirk's ring.. Btw, notice that the chart shows Lebron's teams underachieved the OFFENSIVE expectation, not the defensive

If you don’t agree with parts of a figure that you post then...doesn’t that defeat the purpose of using one as evidence in the first place? :lol

[3ba11]

which part of the chart said 1-man?


The stats confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk

Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:



PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem...... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry.......... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP................... 11.0...........3.5............. 1.2........... 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan........ 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........ 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................... 13.2.......... 9.6............. 2.1........... 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk............ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry........... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................... 4.9...........1.1............. 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

92' Jordan......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen......... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP.................... 7.1........... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan......... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen......... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................... 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............. 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan........ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................... 7.3............ 2.9............. 0.6............. 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan........ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen........ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................... 9.1........... 4.8.............. 1.0............. 0.090......,... 11.9

98' Jordan....... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen....... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP.................. 8.7........... 3.4.............. 0.8............ 0.095........... 16.4


* Everyone in history needed teammates to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas Jordan averaged 10 more than Pippen in every SERIES... (except 2 where he averaged 4 and 8 more).. This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so everyone else had periods without facing maximum defensive attention - these periods are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

* The Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else

* Only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals)

* Pippen was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same playoff opponent 6/6 times:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times




which part of the chart said 1-man?


Jordan would've won more if Pippen didn't have the lowest peak capability of any notable 90's sidekick (22/5) and if he wasn't the only sidekick that never led his team in a series (never a 1b).

For example - in the 97' WCF, John Stockton carried the Jazz to the Finals by averaging 21/11 and hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face... Every notable sidekick in the 90's including guys like Terry Porter had many series where they led their team and completely dominated..

Obviously, Jordan would've won more with a sidekick that could dominate or be a 1b and had better peak capability.. Pippen was a low-producer and historic bed-wetter in the playoffs because he was just an ordinary player and producer - he's 0/6 in reaching Horry-level in the Finals (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals).. only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size (0/6).. So Jordan won 6 Finals with a sidekick that never reached Horry-level from the 95' Finals - this provides an idea of Pippen's true caliber without Jordan inflating his resume

[GimmeThat]

The stats confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk

Every "duo" in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:



and since when did "duo" = "team"

[tpols]

Klay has the lowest rate of WS (WS/48)


Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts

Miller (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)............ 18.4 PER.. 3.5 bpm.. 0.176 ws/48.. 66.4 vorp on 47,619 min.. 18/3/3 on 61.4 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

Miller (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)............ 19.5 PER.. 5.0 bpm.. 0.180 ws/48.... 9.4 vorp on 5308 min.. 21/3/3 on 60.4 ts

Wow... Klay is worse than Jeff hornacek across the board. And Reggie blows hivm away in every single metric. (while playing in a tougher era to produce)

Its funny how all the LeBron homers love to use advanced metrics with LeBron but when it comes to Reggie vs Klay they lie and completely disregard them. And the whole reason they do it is to hype klay and make the ass beatings LeBron used to take at the hands of the warriors seem more palatable. Its a sad sight.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wow... Klay is worse than Jeff hornacek across the board. And Reggie blows hivm away in every single metric. (while playing in a tougher era to produce)

Its funny how all the LeBron homers love to use advanced metrics with LeBron but when it comes to Reggie vs Klay they lie and completely disregard them. And the whole reason they do it is to hype klay and make the ass beatings LeBron used to take at the hands of the warriors seem more palatable. Its a sad sight.
It's funny how 3ball loves to use advanced metrics and per game averages with Pippen and virtually every other player, but when it comes to LeBron he completely disregards them.

[Hey Yo]

Rodman was a losing outcast that no one wanted in 96' after the debacle with MVP Robinson in 95'

So MJ saved his career

Rodman repaid MJ by averaging 3/8 on 35% for the entire 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs (4/8 in the Finals).

Rodman wouldn't even be playable on a Lebron team..
1995, Rodman was named All-NBA, All-defensive and the reigning 4x rebound champion (who went on to win 7 straight rebounding titles.

LOL @ MJ saving his career. Extremely dumb

[Hey Yo]

Wow... Klay is worse than Jeff hornacek across the board. And Reggie blows hivm away in every single metric. (while playing in a tougher era to produce)

Its funny how all the LeBron homers love to use advanced metrics with LeBron but when it comes to Reggie vs Klay they lie and completely disregard them. And the whole reason they do it is to hype klay and make the ass beatings LeBron used to take at the hands of the warriors seem more palatable. Its a sad sight.

Let Klay play with a shortened 3pt line for 3yrs, take away Reggie's 3yrs of it and then compare stats.

[tpols]

It's funny how 3ball loves to use advanced metrics and per game averages with Pippen and virtually every other player, but when it comes to LeBron he completely disregards them.

Reggie averaged 24 ppg on 60+TS and 120 ORTG from 1990 to 2002 in the playoffs with a 100+ game sample size. Even hyper efficient LeBron can't match Reggies scoring efficiency despite playing in a weaker defensive era.

But the crux of the issue is this... Did Reggie Westbrook his production? No. He almost won titles with Rik Smits going up against shaq, Kobe, jordan and a ton of other great competition. That means his off ball style elevated the team. Nobody underperformed next to Reggie because he didn't have to hog the ball to produce.

Did Reggie ever play with Wade, AD, or Kyrie level talents? No. Did he play in a cupcake conference his whole career? Nope. So you have to look at the context of HOW players get their numbers. If they're Westbrooking their lines they're playing a dumbed down style which requires excessive talent to win. Reggie took Rik Smits further than LeBron could take Big Z. (who is a comparable talent)

[ShawkFactory]

Reggie averaged 24 ppg on 60+TS and 120 ORTG from 1990 to 2002 in the playoffs with a 100+ game sample size. Even hyper efficient LeBron can't match Reggies scoring efficiency despite playing in a weaker defensive era.

But the crux of the issue is this... Did Reggie Westbrook his production? No. He almost won titles with Rik Smits going up against shaq, Kobe, jordan and a ton of other great competition. That means his off ball style elevated the team. Nobody underperformed next to Reggie because he didn't have to hog the ball to produce.

Did Reggie ever play with Wade, AD, or Kyrie level talents? No. Did he play in a cupcake conference his whole career? Nope. So you have to look at the context of HOW players get their numbers. If they're Westbrooking their lines they're playing a dumbed down style which requires excessive talent to win. Reggie took Rik Smits further than LeBron could take Big Z. (who is a comparable talent)

When?

[tpols]

When?

2000 Finals Pacers went further against Lakers than Lebrons Cavs went against the Spurs. Reggie production destroys Lebrons as well if you compare their two Finals. Ultimately having your best side kick be Rik Smits is like only getting to play with Big Z your whole career. Big Z actually made more All Star teams. I just think it would be very interesting if you gave Miller true superstar sidekicks. And LeBron only gets to play with Big Z his whole career.

[SouBeachTalents]

2000 Finals Pacers went further against Lakers than Lebrons Cavs went against the Spurs. Reggie production destroys Lebrons as well if you compare their two Finals. Ultimately having your best side kick be Rik Smits is like only getting to play with Big Z your whole career. Big Z actually made more All Star teams. I just think it would be very interesting if you gave Miller true superstar sidekicks. And LeBron only gets to play with Big Z his whole career.
You typed all this out like Jalen Rose wasn't on the team averaging 21 in the playoffs & 23 in the Finals. That blows away Mo Williams best playoff run, let alone Big Z.

[GimmeThat]

2000 Finals Pacers went further against Lakers than Lebrons Cavs went against the Spurs. Reggie production destroys Lebrons as well if you compare their two Finals. Ultimately having your best side kick be Rik Smits is like only getting to play with Big Z your whole career. Big Z actually made more All Star teams. I just think it would be very interesting if you gave Miller true superstar sidekicks. And LeBron only gets to play with Big Z his whole career.

how are other superstars automatically ones sidekick when one hadn't even won a scoring title

[ShawkFactory]

2000 Finals Pacers went further against Lakers than Lebrons Cavs went against the Spurs. Reggie production destroys Lebrons as well if you compare their two Finals. Ultimately having your best side kick be Rik Smits is like only getting to play with Big Z your whole career. Big Z actually made more All Star teams. I just think it would be very interesting if you gave Miller true superstar sidekicks. And LeBron only gets to play with Big Z his whole career.

Oh Smits' finals year where he played 19 minutes a game.

Lebron carried Shane Battier farther in 2012 and 2013 than Reggie carried Smits. See what I did there?

Lebron was getting pretty close with Big Z; winning 66 and 60 games. I don't think it's crazy to say they win a championship if Lebron stays in Cleveland. Or at least goes to more finals. I see what you're trying to accomplish but...meh.

[Hey Yo]

But he has character.

Only a low-character bum would try to fool people and manufacture a resume like that

And only a public that is dumber than a box or rocks would fall for it and think that someone is the best ever who can't win organically (reduces everyone to spot-up shooter), and therefore must seek talent-based winning/all-star team strategy/super-teams (team-hopping)

Nash signed a deal in 2009 and wasnt a free agent until the summer of 2011. So as usual, you're wrong.

[GimmeThat]

Nobody underperformed next to Reggie because he didn't have to hog the ball to produce.



so do you believe that a player should pass up an open jump shot for a spot up 3

[3ba11]

Lebron was getting pretty close with Big Z





Kemp led Zydrunas to 47 wins and the playoffs in 98', while Lebron was lottery with the all-star version of Zydrunas in 05'

Lebron was lottery with Big Z until he added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY in 2006, or added a Klay-level offensive all-star (Mo) that added 21 wins..

The Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team until Mo taught us that Lebron needs elite shooting around him.. It was the first time that Lebron had a dose of BRAND OF BALL, and the results were scintillating.. Unfortunately, he opted for a talent-based approach (team-hopping), and therefore never completed the organic learning curve of developing superior brand required of organic winners (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls).

[ShawkFactory]

Kemp led Zydrunas to 47 wins and the playoffs in 98', while Lebron was lottery with the all-star version of Zydrunas in 05'

Lebron was lottery with Big Z until he added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY in 2006, or added a Klay-level offensive all-star (Mo) that added 21 wins.. The Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team until Mo taught us that Lebron needs elite shooting around him

Big Z in 98: 19.7 PER, .189 WS/48, 1.4 BPM, 2.1 VORP
Big Z in 05: 19.5 PER, . 149 WS/48, -1.2 BPM, 1.2 VORP

[3ba11]

Big Z in 98: 19.7 PER, .189 WS/48, 1.4 BPM, 2.1 VORP
Big Z in 05: 19.5 PER, . 149 WS/48, -1.2 BPM, 1.2 VORP
Big Z in 06: 21.6 PER, . 184 WS/48, 1.6 BPM, 2.1 VORP

05' Hughes... 21.6 PER.. 0.148 WS/48.. 4.3 BPM... 3.7 VORP


^^^ added a couple lines

[GimmeThat]

Kemp led Zydrunas to 47 wins and the playoffs in 98', while Lebron was lottery with the all-star version of Zydrunas in 05'

Lebron was lottery with Big Z until he added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY in 2006, or added a Klay-level offensive all-star (Mo) that added 21 wins..

The Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team until Mo taught us that Lebron needs elite shooting around him.. It was the first time that Lebron had a dose of BRAND OF BALL, and the results were scintillating.. Unfortunately, he opted for a talent-based approach (team-hopping), and therefore never completed the organic learning curve of developing superior brand required of organic winners (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls).

didn't Ben Franklin traveled to France in order to rally France's support for America in the revolutionary war?

[ShawkFactory]

^^^ added a couple lines

Your statement was about the Cavs in 98 and 05. The Cavs in 06 and Larry Hughes (who was not on the Cavs in 05) have no relevance.

[3ba11]

Your statement was about the Cavs in 98 and 05. The Cavs in 06 and Larry Hughes (who was not on the Cavs in 05) have no relevance.


Your initial claim was that Lebron did a lot with Big Z

And now you're aware that Lebron didn't do shit with Big Z and was infact lottery until he acquired a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY in 2006, or added a Klay-level offense & all-star (Mo) who added 21 wins..

The Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team until Mo taught us that Lebron needs elite shooting around him.. It was the first time that Lebron had a dose of BRAND OF BALL, and the results were scintillating..

Unfortunately, he opted for a talent-based approach (team-hopping), and therefore never completed the learning curve of developing superior brand required of organic winners (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls).. The bum only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning) and never learned to win (brand of ball).

[ShawkFactory]

Your initial claim was that Lebron did a lot with Big Z

And now you're aware that Lebron didn't do shit with Big Z and was infact lottery until he acquired a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY in 2006, or added a Klay-level offense & all-star (Mo) who added 21 wins..

The Cavs were a bummy, 45-win team until Mo taught us that Lebron needs elite shooting around him.. It was the first time that Lebron had a dose of BRAND OF BALL, and the results were scintillating..

Unfortunately, he opted for a talent-based approach (team-hopping), and therefore never completed the organic learning curve of developing superior brand required of organic winners (Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls Lebron

That and he turned an age where he could legally drink.

[3ba11]

That and he turned an age where he could legally drink.


Magic was FMVP before he could drink, while Lebron was playing worse than anyone ever has at 22 in the 07' Finals

Night and day

Heck, when we compare stats at 22-23 years old against championship teams and #1 defenses, we see that 86' Jordan literally doubles Lebron's performance from the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF

[Hey Yo]

Magic was FMVP before he could drink, while Lebron was playing worse than anyone ever has at 22 in the 07' Finals

Night and day

Heck, when we compare stats at 22-23 years old against championship teams and #1 defenses, we see that 86' Jordan literally doubles Lebron's performance from the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF

Drinking age was still 18 when Magic was a rookie. Plus we know why he won FMVP. .... by default

[GimmeThat]

And now you're aware that Lebron didn't do shit with Big Z and was infact lottery


so can you tell us how did Lebron win a ring with the Cavs with this one person didn't do shit with another player logic

did they just kept on shitting themselves and one day all of a sudden they WON THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP???

[GimmeThat]

Magic was FMVP before he could drink, while Lebron was playing worse than anyone ever has at 22 in the 07' Finals

Night and day

Heck, when we compare stats at 22-23 years old against championship teams and #1 defenses, we see that 86' Jordan literally doubles Lebron's performance from the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF

how is Lebron living in your head rent free?

[3ba11]

how did Lebron win a ring with the Cavs ??





Unprecedented help, specifically the only super-team in the league (three 1st options and perennial all-stars on 1 team) and the only sidekicks in history that outplayed league MVP or FMVP (kyrie outplayed 16' curry.. Bosh outplayed 11' Rose... AD demolished Jokic.. Wade outplayed fmvp Dirk)... The only hand-picked sidekicks ever... goat doh, smh

[tontoz]

A lot of people, like myself, would take Nash over Isiah.

[SouBeachTalents]

A lot of people, like myself, would take Nash over Isiah.
Besides the obvious choices like Magic & Curry, which PG's are you taking over Isiah?

[3ba11]

Besides the obvious choices like Magic & Curry, which PG's are you taking over Isiah?


Dumars.. :confusedshrug:.. :lol:

Heck, KJ demolished Magic or Hakeem far more than Isiah ever did..

But probably still top 3 all-time PG because he knew how to win (brand of ball)

[GimmeThat]

Unprecedented help, goat doh, smh

so you're saying he had an unprecedented roster built around him, and when these players played next to him, they were all considered the help

[John8204]

Besides the obvious choices like Magic & Curry, which PG's are you taking over Isiah?

Maybe at his peak....but that peak was to short...highest I would put Thomas is seventh lowest tenth.

Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, CPIII, Frazier, Archibald, Kidd, Cousy

Pistons were in IMHO the greatest team ever assembled...I think we somewhat give Thomas more credit at the expense of all the other guys that were just as productive.

[tontoz]

Besides the obvious choices like Magic & Curry, which PG's are you taking over Isiah?

Nash, Stockton, CP3 and Frazier are the obvious ones, Oscar if you count him as a pg.

Isiah is one of the most overrated players i have ever seen. He was a weak shooter from anywhere outside 3 feet and wasnt much of a defender either. He wasn't even 3rd team All-NBA during their title years and was out of the NBA AT 32.

[1987_Lakers]

Nash, Stockton, CP3 and Frazier are the obvious ones, Oscar if you count him as a pg.

Isiah is one of the most overrated players i have ever seen. He was a weak shooter from anywhere outside 3 feet and wasnt much of a defender either. He wasn't even 3rd team All-NBA during their title years and was out of the NBA AT 32.

I agree with this.

[NBAGOAT]

i was about to say i consider nash better than isiah without rings but that's already been said. He should've considered leaving phoenix because of how bad sarver was. They win a ring for sure if he's just an average owner and not trading away 1st rd picks for money or not paying any luxury tax for a top contender. Also not like nash was against having help so you're overplaying his high character lol. KG for Stat/marion was very close to happening

[GimmeThat]

well, it is ISH, where most people would choose

regular season BPM 3.0 playoff BPM 3.2 over regular season BPM 2.6 playoff BPM 6.0