Pippen's First 3-Peat vs Kobe's

[HoopsNY]

Pippen: 21/9/7/2/1 on 46%

Kobe: 22/6/5/1/1 on 43%

This isn't to say that Pippen > Kobe in the finals or even equal. But how far off was he, really? Too much is made of the second three peat while the first is ignored when discussing Pippen's contribution.

Kobe had become a 1b in 2001, so it's not the fairest of comparisons. Still and all, he was the 2nd option to Shaq.

Not enough is made of Pippen's contribution in the first three peat.

[Axe]

Pippen was a better defender, more mature and coachable than the showboat and more selfish young kobe although the latter really is a scoring machine. Too bad he doesn't have more than one 50-point game in the playoffs tho.

[RRR3]

Oh boy. He's coming, readying his copy and paste documents.

[HoopsNY]

Pippen was a better defender, more mature and coachable than the showboat and more selfish young kobe although the latter really is a scoring machine. Too bad he doesn't have more than one 50-point game in the playoffs tho.

How much of a scoring machine was he in the finals, really?

2000: 15.6 PPG (37%)
2001: 24.6 PPG (42%)

2002 he averaged over 26 PPG. I'll give him that. But in terms of a full package, the average makes sense. Truth be told, the numbers are similar with good reason. And that is to say, Pippen was almost on Kobe's level as a second option in the first three peat.

[Axe]

How much of a scoring machine was he in the finals, really?

2000: 15.6 PPG (37%)
2001: 24.6 PPG (42%)

2002 he averaged over 26 PPG. I'll give him that. But in terms of a full package, the average makes sense. Truth be told, the numbers are similar with good reason. And that is to say, Pippen was almost on Kobe's level as a second option in the first three peat.
I was referring to the rs and the playoffs when i said that. In the finals he has lower scoring averages, that's true. And regarding 1st three-peat pippen, he actually had more ppg in his finals debut at around almost 20 ppg on 45% in 1991 compared to kobe's almost 16 ppg on 36% in 2000.

[John_Connor]

heres kobes real averages

2000 season - 22.5ppg, 6.3rpg, 4.9apg
2000 playoffs (even with 2 point injury game) - 22.8, 4.4rpg, 4.5apg
2000 finals (minus 2 point injury game) - 19.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.25apg

2001 season - 28.5ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.0apg
2001 playoffs - 29.4ppg, 7.3rpg, 6.1apg
2001 finals - 24.6ppg, 7.8rpg, 5.8apg

2002 season - 25.4ppg, 5.5rpg, 5.5apg
2002 playoffs - 26.6ppg, 5.8rpg, 4.6apg
2002 finals - 26.8ppg, 5.8rpg, 5.3apg


total combined 3 year season average = 25.4ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.1apg
total combined 3 year playoff average = 25.3ppg, 5.7rpg, 4.9apg


as for the finals average its mostly due to the number of games played in the 2000 series vs the next 2 finals. for instance... had the 2001 and 2002 finals both been 6 games as well then kobes average would be higher. like around 24ppg. not gonna bother with it

fact is kobe was basically 2010 gasol for the 2000 lakers. they both had a big pivotal game and averaged 19. so to say that series doesn't count for kobe would mean gasols doesn't count

overall kobe has 2 co lead 1B rings and a sidekick ring with shaq.


pippen was NEVER 1B or co lead with jordan

[John_Connor]

I would say pippen over 2000 or 2002 kobe because the defensive gap.

2001 kobe is the only version that was better.


i'd say 2000 kobe was a pippen for sure

but 2001 and 2002 kobe was basically a step under jordan.


pippen himself put kobe above jordan. so i dunno what to believe. maybe the guy you're advocating for?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9r3GcylZnI

[SATAN]

pippen himself put kobe above jordan.

So did 3ball. :applause:

[RRR3]

heres kobes real averages

2000 season - 22.5ppg, 6.3rpg, 4.9apg
2000 playoffs (even with 2 point injury game) - 22.8, 4.4rpg, 4.5apg
2000 finals (minus 2 point injury game) - 19.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.25apg

2001 season - 28.5ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.0apg
2001 playoffs - 29.4ppg, 7.3rpg, 6.1apg
2001 finals - 24.6ppg, 7.8rpg, 5.8apg

2002 season - 25.4ppg, 5.5rpg, 5.5apg
2002 playoffs - 26.6ppg, 5.8rpg, 4.6apg
2002 finals - 26.8ppg, 5.8rpg, 5.3apg


total combined 3 year season average = 25.4ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.1apg
total combined 3 year playoff average = 25.3ppg, 5.7rpg, 4.9apg


as for the finals average its mostly due to the number of games played in the 2000 series vs the next 2 finals. for instance... had the 2001 and 2002 finals both been 6 games as well then kobes average would be higher. like around 24ppg. not gonna bother with it

fact is kobe was basically 2010 gasol for the 2000 lakers. they both had a big pivotal game and averaged 19. so to say that series doesn't count for kobe would mean gasols doesn't count

overall kobe has 2 co lead 1B rings and a sidekick ring with shaq.


pippen was NEVER 1B or co lead with jordan
Damn imagine what LeBron’s averages would be if I only counted the games he played well in.

[1987_Lakers]

I honestly didn't know they were so close statistically. :oldlol:

[2much_knowledge]

heres kobes real averages

2000 season - 22.5ppg, 6.3rpg, 4.9apg
2000 playoffs (even with 2 point injury game) - 22.8, 4.4rpg, 4.5apg
2000 finals (minus 2 point injury game) - 19.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.25apg

2001 season - 28.5ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.0apg
2001 playoffs - 29.4ppg, 7.3rpg, 6.1apg
2001 finals - 24.6ppg, 7.8rpg, 5.8apg

2002 season - 25.4ppg, 5.5rpg, 5.5apg
2002 playoffs - 26.6ppg, 5.8rpg, 4.6apg
2002 finals - 26.8ppg, 5.8rpg, 5.3apg


total combined 3 year season average = 25.4ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.1apg
total combined 3 year playoff average = 25.3ppg, 5.7rpg, 4.9apg


as for the finals average its mostly due to the number of games played in the 2000 series vs the next 2 finals. for instance... had the 2001 and 2002 finals both been 6 games as well then kobes average would be higher. like around 24ppg. not gonna bother with it

fact is kobe was basically 2010 gasol for the 2000 lakers. they both had a big pivotal game and averaged 19. so to say that series doesn't count for kobe would mean gasols doesn't count

overall kobe has 2 co lead 1B rings and a sidekick ring with shaq.


pippen was NEVER 1B or co lead with jordan

At last!!!!!! Someone smart enough to analize properly and actually do their research.

You do not penalize players for injuries

This is spot on

[2much_knowledge]

Damn imagine what LeBron’s averages would be if I only counted the games he played well in.

Low i.q post. A common theme among bron fanboys. Playing well and leaving the game at the start cause of injury are 2 entirely different things.

[John_Connor]

Damn imagine what LeBron’s averages would be if I only counted the games he played well in.

il tell ya what. you can eliminate any game in which lebron left in the first quarter due to injury

[GrayGoat]

This was MJ’s 2nd option. Damn Mikey really didn’t have help lolol

[Round Mound]

I honestly didn't know they were so close statistically. :oldlol:

:oldlol: ...I still don't know if 3-ball has seen this :lol. According to him Pippen was not even Top 15 in the 90s.

[TheGoatest]

Those numbers of The Great Scott Pippen are misleading.
They don't show how the Bulls' championship runs started when he was put to guard Magic Johnson in game 2 of the 1991 NBA Finals over a teammate of his who couldn't guard him in the Bulls' game 1 loss, as well as the start of game 2.

[Manny98]

01 Kobe is better than any version of Pippen

[SouBeachTalents]

but 2001 and 2002 kobe was basically a step under jordan.
‘01 sure, if we discount the Finals. ‘02? Not even close to Jordan :lol

[HoopsNY]

heres kobes real averages

2000 season - 22.5ppg, 6.3rpg, 4.9apg
2000 playoffs (even with 2 point injury game) - 22.8, 4.4rpg, 4.5apg
2000 finals (minus 2 point injury game) - 19.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.25apg

2001 season - 28.5ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.0apg
2001 playoffs - 29.4ppg, 7.3rpg, 6.1apg
2001 finals - 24.6ppg, 7.8rpg, 5.8apg

2002 season - 25.4ppg, 5.5rpg, 5.5apg
2002 playoffs - 26.6ppg, 5.8rpg, 4.6apg
2002 finals - 26.8ppg, 5.8rpg, 5.3apg


total combined 3 year season average = 25.4ppg, 5.9rpg, 5.1apg
total combined 3 year playoff average = 25.3ppg, 5.7rpg, 4.9apg


as for the finals average its mostly due to the number of games played in the 2000 series vs the next 2 finals. for instance... had the 2001 and 2002 finals both been 6 games as well then kobes average would be higher. like around 24ppg. not gonna bother with it

fact is kobe was basically 2010 gasol for the 2000 lakers. they both had a big pivotal game and averaged 19. so to say that series doesn't count for kobe would mean gasols doesn't count

overall kobe has 2 co lead 1B rings and a sidekick ring with shaq.


pippen was NEVER 1B or co lead with jordan

Shaq won FMVP all three series. And my point wasn't to compare regular season, playoffs, and finals; it was to show how Pippen was not THAT far off from Kobe, at least statistically, in the finals.

Pippen was the better rebounder, playmaker, and defender as well. So even if we say that Kobe was the alpha scorer, then the difference is still marginal because of what Pippen brought to the table in addition to scoring.

I get why some have an unfavorable view of Pippen for his playoffs/finals performances in the last 3 peat. But there just isn't any denying what Pippen brought in the first 3 peat.

And sure, Kobe was hurt in the 2000 finals, but Pippen played on a bad ankle the entire 1993 season, playoffs, and finals. And it obviously showed. Chicago went from being a 67 win team to winning 57 games. And Pippen's numbers dropped as a result.

Okay, let's say he wasn't almost to the level of Kobe....how about, Penny? Hill? Reggie? all at their peaks? If that's somewhat of a fair assessment then it really brings to light how good of a 2nd option Pippen was in the first 3 peat.

[3ba11]

Pippen was a tertiary option and last option in the 4th with low peak capability (22/5), while Kobe was often the series leader (1b) with all-time peak capability (33/6/6 vs 01' or 08' Spurs)

Pippen had the lowest peak capability (22/5) and is the only notable sidekick in history that never led his team in a series (never a 1b - always carried)

[GrayGoat]

Pippen was a tertiary option and last option in the 4th with low peak capability (22/5), while Kobe was often the series leader (1b) with all-time peak capability (33/6/6 vs 01' or 08' Spurs)

Pippen had the lowest peak capability (22/5) and is the only notable sidekick in history that never led his team in a series (never a 1b - always carried)

Kobe was Pippen level (Mo Williams, big z, Kevin love)

[3ba11]

Kobe was Pippen level (Mo Williams, big z, Kevin love)


Only in the 00' Finals but even then he prevented a Game 7

[GrayGoat]

Only in the 00' Finals but even then he prevented a Game 7

So did Kerr

[3ba11]

Those numbers of The Great Scott Pippen are misleading.
They don't show how the Bulls' championship runs started when he was put to guard Magic Johnson in game 2 of the 1991 NBA Finals over a teammate of his who couldn't guard him in the Bulls' game 1 loss, as well as the start of game 2.


Jordan guarded Magic for most of the 91' Finals including the critical Game 3 OT & 4th quarter that swung the series.. Who cares about Pippen doing spot-duty in the blowout Game 2 - the Bulls' offense went bananas because MJ went 15-18 against max defensive attention (so everyone else was wide open), aka goat offense

[GrayGoat]

MJ didn’t face max defensive attention because he is a high iq player and would PASS to the open man. His assists would reflect this if this was the case…

[3ba11]

MJ didn’t face max defensive attention because he is a high iq player and would PASS to the open man. His assists would reflect this if this was the case…


The Bulls lacked offensive talent so MJ still had to carry the goat scoring load..

But prime Jordan wasn't dumb enough to be an easy double-team target by dominating the ball at the top of the key AAU style - the defense didn't know where he would catch the ball, which forced defenses to be perfect and quick with their doubles.. Jordan was essentially the bailout option that closed possessions - so teammates had the ball in their hands looking for MJ to bailout the possession.. He would run off screens or post up and close the possession via quick iso upon the catch.

Ultimately, everyone in history had equal-scoring teammates to attract equal defensive attention for entire playoff runs, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced maximum defensive attention - he carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run

[3ba11]

So did Kerr


Off a double-team that Jordan pre-planned

You wish Lebron could command doubles and therefore control outcomes like Jordan did in Game 6 of the 97' Finals... Great find

Unfortunately, Lebron isn't a lethal enough scorer for a coach to compromise the defense (3-on-4 off-the-ball) by doubling

[tpols]

Why would you only use Finals? Of which one of them Kobe was hurt in and skewed averages. What about the whole playoffs where Kobe could go on whole runs of 30/7/6 on elite efficiency of which pippen never even came close?

This is just dishonest posting. We expect better here.

[SouBeachTalents]

\This is just dishonest posting. We expect better here.
Word, we need more posts like Kidd > LeBron

[tpols]

How much of a scoring machine was he in the finals, really?

2000: 15.6 PPG (37%)


And here we have it folks.

Kobe hot hurt in this series and its 33% of OPs sample size. Jalen Rose even admitted he purposely hurt Kobe in the Finals.


https://youtu.be/f2GB-O3aDIQ

This is a weak troll.

[HoopsNY]

Pippen was a tertiary option and last option in the 4th with low peak capability (22/5), while Kobe was often the series leader (1b) with all-time peak capability (33/6/6 vs 01' or 08' Spurs)

Pippen had the lowest peak capability (22/5) and is the only notable sidekick in history that never led his team in a series (never a 1b - always carried)

My focus was on the finals, not the entire playoffs as a whole. Also, I've made it clear that I'm not saying that Pippen was in fact more valuable or a better player than Kobe in his first three finals appearances, but he was close.

[HoopsNY]

Why would you only use Finals? Of which one of them Kobe was hurt in and skewed averages. What about the whole playoffs where Kobe could go on whole runs of 30/7/6 on elite efficiency of which pippen never even came close?

This is just dishonest posting. We expect better here.

Why not? We share and analyze finals sample sizes all the time. This is no different. But now that you mention it, lets take a look:

Kobe '00-'02: 25/6/5/1.5 on 45%
Pippen '91-'93: 20/8/6/2 on 48%

Kobe Advanced '00-'02 Playoffs

PER: 21.3
WS/48: .169
TS%: .527
OBPM: 4.3
DBPM: 0.6
BPM: 4.9
VORP: 4.2

Pippen Advanced '91-'93 Playoffs

PER: 19.6
WS/48: .148
TS%: .536
OBPM: 3.1
DBPM: 2.0
BPM: 5.1
VORP: 4.3

Once again, Kobe is the better performer and player, something I never denied. My argument is how far off was Pippen from Kobe in his first three finals appearances? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see the gap being as wide as others....and now we've looked at the entire playoff sample size.

[HoopsNY]

And here we have it folks.

Kobe hot hurt in this series and its 33% of OPs sample size. Jalen Rose even admitted he purposely hurt Kobe in the Finals.


https://youtu.be/f2GB-O3aDIQ

This is a weak troll.

Did you watch the series? Game 1 Kobe put up a pedestrian 14 points on 46%. In game 5, Ahmad Reshad opened the telecast by mentioning that Kobe felt no pain on the ankle when walking. This isn't to say that he was 100%, but you're making it out to be like he was completely incapable and incapacitated.

How did Kobe play in games 5 and 6? He shot 4-20 in game 5 and 8-27 in game 6. Here's the clip if you don't believe me (watch from 0:30):


https://youtu.be/hZuzNJYsPI0?t=31

And again, Pippen doesn't get that benefit of the doubt despite playing all year (regular season, playoffs, and finals) in 1993 on a bad ankle, but Kobe does for that finals. Inconsistencies is what I'm seeing.

[RRR3]

Did you watch the series? Game 1 Kobe put up a pedestrian 14 points on 46%. In game 5, Ahmad Reshad opened the telecast by mentioning that Kobe felt no pain on the ankle when walking. This isn't to say that he was 100%, but you're making it out to be like he was completely incapable and incapacitated.

How did Kobe play in games 5 and 6? He shot 4-20 in game 5 and 8-27 in game 6. Here's the clip if you don't believe me (watch from 0:30):


https://youtu.be/hZuzNJYsPI0?t=31

And again, Pippen doesn't get that benefit of the doubt despite playing all year (regular season, playoffs, and finals) in 1993 on a bad ankle, but Kobe does for that finals. Inconsistencies is what I'm seeing.
Bodybagged.

[RRR3]

Word, we need more posts like Kidd > LeBron
:roll:

[HoopsNY]

Bodybagged.

My intent is not to insult anyone. I just believe these discussions have too many parts that are all conflated. We need to break them apart. When we look at Pippen's first three playoff and finals, he's somewhere on the level of a Grant Hill and just below Kobe.

If people can admit that much, then it speaks volumes as to how good of a second option Pippen was in the first three peat. This doesn't negate MJ's dominance and contribution, but it debunks the myth of Pippen being some kind of "bum", which I think is because most posters on here remember Pippen from 1996-1998.

He had a great first 3-peat, followed by two seasons where he was a leader and made the best of a bad situation. That's a testimony to Pippen and his greatness.

[3ba11]

My intent is not to insult anyone. I just believe these discussions have too many parts that are all conflated. We need to break them apart. When we look at Pippen's first three playoff and finals, he's somewhere on the level of a Grant Hill and just below Kobe.

If people can admit that much, then it speaks volumes as to how good of a second option Pippen was in the first three peat. This doesn't negate MJ's dominance and contribution, but it debunks the myth of Pippen being some kind of "bum", which I think is because most posters on here remember Pippen from 1996-1998.

He had a great first 3-peat, followed by two seasons where he was a leader and made the best of a bad situation. That's a testimony to Pippen and his greatness.


Pippen wasn't a 1st option and Kobe was, even alongside Shaq

Pippen was more of an athlete and defender, and never a go-to player, like Colin Cowherd says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen wasn't a 1st option and Kobe was, even alongside Shaq

Pippen was more of an athlete and defender, and never a go-to player, like Colin Cowherd says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s

Imagine using Collin Cowherd as a source when he himself said MJ needed Pippen while LeBron just needs a ball.

[3ba11]

Imagine using Collin Cowherd as a source when he himself said MJ needed Pippen while LeBron just needs a ball.


That's an old quote. His recent quotes are different

People know that 2 stars is more help than 1 star

And people know that peak Pippen was just an athlete and slasher - he couldn't create his own shot.. every version of Pippen < 98/99 Kobe

[1987_Lakers]

That's an old quote. His recent quotes are different


He said it less than 2 years ago.

Not everyone is like you who constantly changes their views on certain players.

[RRR3]

Snivelly getting brutally beat down into a bloody pulp as usual :oldlol:

How can the poor guy stand getting owned so much?

[3ba11]

He said it less than 2 years ago.

Not everyone is like you who constantly changes their views on certain players.


That's a long time ago - since the last dance and Pippen's meltdown, he understands that Jordan was carrying a bunch of nobodies

Again, Pippen was an athlete and defender - he couldn't create his own shot - Iggy would be an absurd comparison to any version of Kobe too - that's what you're doing

[1987_Lakers]

That's a long time ago

No it's not. Collin said that AFTER he watched the last dance documentary. His views on what Pippen is doing off the court has nothing to do with what he did on it. Get help.

[3ba11]

No it's not. Collin said that AFTER he watched the last dance documentary. His views on what Pippen is doing off the court has nothing to do with what he did on it. Get help.


He was defending Lebron from the obvious goatness showed in The Last Dance and was wrong because Lebron obviously needed a lot more help than just a pippen

Pippen is a 2nd or 3rd option, while Lebron needed 1st options to play 2nd and 3rd option - that's obviously more help.. :hammerhead:.. Lebron has simply hypnotized everyone - this is what being defrauded feels like

[HoopsNY]

Pippen wasn't a 1st option and Kobe was, even alongside Shaq

Pippen was more of an athlete and defender, and never a go-to player, like Colin Cowherd says:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s

That's irrelevant. I never claimed that Pippen was an equal scorer. Obviously he wasn't. I'm looking at overall contribution. When you consider the full package, then Pippen was on a similar, though slightly lower level than Kobe.

This puts things into perspective. I think it's fair to say that he brought what was similar to Penny and Grant Hill, which again shows how good he was in the first three peat. The fact that his numbers are almost as good as Kobe's is enough to tell you how valuable he was to the success of Chicago's finals victories from 1991-93.

You can be stubborn, but facts are facts.

[Charlie Sheen]

It's not a bad comparison, and I don't disagree with the point you're making in the op. One thing that skews this towards Pippen is age. Kobe was only 21 when the Lakers beat Indiana, but it felt like he was older because he'd already been in the league 4 years. Pippen was early in his NBA career too when the bulls won, but he was already 25 maybe.

[HoopsNY]

It's not a bad comparison, and I don't disagree with the point you're making in the op. One thing that skews this towards Pippen is age. Kobe was only 21 when the Lakers beat Indiana, but it felt like he was older because he'd already been in the league 4 years. Pippen was early in his NBA career too when the bulls won, but he was already 25 maybe.

Yea, you're not wrong in terms of age difference. I guess the focal point in this is seeing how the league viewed Kobe at that time, which was him being an elite player in the game.

Penny and Hill were viewed the same way during the mid to late 90s. So if this was the case with these players, then what about Pippen who produced at a similar level? I think it's important to separate the two 3-peats. The first one, MJ had an elite sidekick. There's no shame in that because by the late 90s, Pippen wasn't the same player and due to injuries, he underachieved. Despite that, Chicago still 3-peated, which is a testimony to how dominant MJ was.

[3ba11]

That's irrelevant. I never claimed that Pippen was an equal scorer. Obviously he wasn't. I'm looking at overall contribution. When you consider the full package, then Pippen was on a similar, though slightly lower level than Kobe.

This puts things into perspective. I think it's fair to say that he brought what was similar to Penny and Grant Hill, which again shows how good he was in the first three peat. The fact that his numbers are almost as good as Kobe's is enough to tell you how valuable he was to the success of Chicago's finals victories from 1991-93.

You can be stubborn, but facts are facts.


No one thought Pippen was as good as Penny or Hill, who were legitimate scoring options that could create their own shot.. Pippen was a lesser-passing and better-dunking Draymond - a similar non-scorer, so not comparable to Penny or Hill.. Jordan basically won with a non-scorer as sidekick - the triangle propped up Pippen and even with it, Pippen was often aids on offense

[SouBeachTalents]

No one thought Pippen was as good as Penny or Hill, who were legitimate scoring options that could create their own shot.. Pippen was a lesser-passing and better-dunking Draymond - a similar non-scorer, so not comparable to Penny or Hill.. Jordan basically won with a non-scorer as sidekick - the triangle propped up Pippen and even with it, Pippen was often aids on offense
That non scorer outscored the vast majority of the opposing teams 2nd options during their title runs. Just goes to show how incredibly weak that era was :lol

[HoopsNY]

No one thought Pippen was as good as Penny or Hill, who were legitimate scoring options that could create their own shot.. Pippen was a lesser-passing and better-dunking Draymond - a similar non-scorer, so not comparable to Penny or Hill.. Jordan basically won with a non-scorer as sidekick - the triangle propped up Pippen and even with it, Pippen was often aids on offense

Of course they didn't think he was as good as Penny or Hill. Both Penny and Hill weren't in the league from 1991-93. And how was Pippen a "non-scorer" averaging 21 PPG in the finals? Go look at the opposing teams' second options from each of those years, Pippen outscored all of them.

[3ba11]

That non scorer outscored the vast majority of the opposing teams 2nd options during their title runs. Just goes to show how incredibly weak that era was :lol


Most sidekicks in the 90'a were go-to scoring options that commanded defensive attention, while Pippen just lived off open looks in the triangle and was nothing without the triangle or ever in any scouting report.

Pippen peaked at 15-22 ppg so he tied opposing matchups in most series with worst-ever efficiency, aka outplayed in most series

Outside of 94', Pippen was outscored by sidekicks in 19 of 41 series in his career and 7 of 7 from 99-03' - so he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ, otherwise he was just an athlete dunker at 3rd thru 9th option on the Rockets and Blazers

[97 bulls]

That non scorer outscored the vast majority of the opposing teams 2nd options during their title runs. Just goes to show how incredibly weak that era was :lol

Penny never manages to score more points in a season than Pippen. And yet 3ball considers him to be better at scoring. That make no sense. And Hill was a Pippen type scorer for all of his career except 1 season when he averaged 25ppg.

[3ba11]

Penny never manages to score more points in a season than Pippen. And yet 3ball considers him to be better at scoring. That make no sense. And Hill was a Pippen type scorer for all of his career except 1 season when he averaged 25ppg.


Pippen wasn't a scorer so you shouldn't think of him that way

He was a little better scorer than Andre Roberson or similar to Draymond but the triangle inflated his scoring - he was nothing without it..

and no one in the 90's thought he compared to Penny or Hill as a scorer .. heck, guys like Mashburn, Glenn Robinson or Kemp destroy Pippen at scoring.. Allan Houston was a better scorer.. basically everyone, smh...

Pippen was an athlete/dunker and NEVER a go-to player - go back and listen to that Cowherd clip - coaches didn't run plays for Pippen because he was a transition or flow scorer that needed a system.. Shaq said that Pippen was never on the scouting report.

[SouBeachTalents]

Most sidekicks in the 90'a were go-to scoring options that commanded defensive attention, while Pippen just lived off open looks in the triangle and was nothing without the triangle or ever in any scouting report.

Pippen peaked at 15-22 ppg so he tied opposing matchups in most series with worst-ever efficiency, aka outplayed in most series

Outside of 94', Pippen was outscored by sidekicks in 19 of 41 series in his career and 7 of 7 from 99-03' - so he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ, otherwise he was just an athlete dunker at 3rd thru 9th option on the Rockets and Blazers
Literally making shit up :lol If we're talking strictly the title years, Pippen outscored the opponents 2nd option in 75% of the series.

[3ba11]

Literally making shit up :lol If we're talking strictly the title years, Pippen outscored the opponents 2nd option in 75% of the series.


You mean outscore by 0.5 ppg with worst-ever efficiency, aka outplayed in most series.

Pippen was the only system player among 90's sidekicks - he peaked at 15-22 ppg, so it was a luxury for coaches to leave him unguarded knowing that he wasn't a threat to pop off..

Otoh, every other sidekick in the 90's was a go-to scoring option with superior peak capability that could pop off and required defensive attention - they also frequently led their teams in many series (1b), so Pippen is the only 90's sidekick with a low peak capability (22/5) that never led his team (never a 1b).

Ultimately, Pippen didn't routinely outplay 1st options like the top tier sidekicks Curry, Kobe, AD, Wade, etc - he barely outscored 2nd options at the same clip of Klay, Pau or other lesser sidekicks, with worst-ever efficiency... he's the only system player, non-go-to 2nd option ever - that's because he wasn't really a 2nd option and was only that alongside MJ

[3ba11]

Literally making shit up :lol If we're talking strictly the title years, Pippen outscored the opponents 2nd option in 75% of the series.


Pippen didn't outplay 1st options like the top tier sidekicks Curry, Kobe, AD, Wade, etc - he barely outscored 2nd options at the same clip of Klay, Pau or other lesser sidekicks, with worst-ever efficiency... So he's the lower tier of winning sidekicks like Klay/Pau - only the 6 rings puts him over these guys despite actually playing worse (outscoring sidekicks less often and with worse efficiency).

Other 90's sidekicks frequently led their teams in many series (1b), so Pippen is the only 90's sidekick with a low peak capability (22/5) that never led his team (never a 1b).

[97 bulls]

Pippen wasn't a scorer so you shouldn't think of him that way

He was a little better scorer than Andre Roberson or similar to Draymond but the triangle inflated his scoring - he was nothing without it..

and no one in the 90's thought he compared to Penny or Hill as a scorer .. heck, guys like Mashburn, Glenn Robinson or Kemp destroy Pippen at scoring.. Allan Houston was a better scorer.. basically everyone, smh...

Pippen was an athlete/dunker and NEVER a go-to player - go back and listen to that Cowherd clip - coaches didn't run plays for Pippen because he was a transition or flow scorer that needed a system.. Shaq said that Pippen was never on the scouting report.

Bro. The numbers don't show that Penny was ever a better scorer than Pippen. And that's what you stated. You're wrong.

[3ba11]

Bro. The numbers don't show that Penny was ever a better scorer than Pippen. And that's what you stated. You're wrong.


Penny averaged 26 in the 95' Finals against Hakeem and the same in the 96' ECF against the Bulls

Again, Pippen had the lowest peak capability of any 90's sidekick, while also being the only sidekick that never led his team in a series (never a 1b)

Every other sidekick had better capability than 22/5 and led their team in many series (1b)

Only Pippen wasn't a go-to scorer and was just an athlete/defender with worst-ever efficiency.. a real bricklayer

[LAL]

LOL. This thread is too funny, doing everything to put Kobe far behind Lebum in all time ranking. Kobe was dominating the league like pippen never did, while he was told to hold back on offense. Even 98 (6th man) Kobe had more to offer than most of Pippen's seasons.


3ball is giving you statnerds the business as usual.

HoopsNY is that Dmavs poster btw.

[97 bulls]

Penny averaged 26 in the 95' Finals against Hakeem and the same in the 96' ECF against the Bulls

Again, Pippen had the lowest peak capability of any 90's sidekick, while also being the only sidekick that never led his team in a series (never a 1b)

Every other sidekick had better capability than 22/5 and led their team in many series (1b)

Only Pippen wasn't a go-to scorer and was just an athlete/defender with worst-ever efficiency.. a real bricklayer

You can't make a career argument based on 7 games smdh. I can say Pippen is better than both Hill and Penny because he has the best career high between the 3

[Phoenix]

You can't make a career argument based on 7 games smdh. I can say Pippen is better than both Hill and Penny because he has the best career high between the 3

Interesting enough, he'll claim that Jeff Hornaceck is better than Klay Thompson ignoring that Klay has like 5 seasons scoring better than him, but will use selective cases of PPG to say Penny scored better than Pippen. Never mind that Penny in 97, free of Shaq and pre knee injury, couldn't even break 21ppg but gives Pip shit for 'only' scoring at that level. Also never mind that Grant Hill averaged 20.7ppg from 94 to 99 AS FIRST OPTION and only had one breakout scoring season of 25.8 in 2000( before the injury), but acts like Grant was some perennial 25ppg guy.

[3ba11]

You can't make a career argument based on 7 games smdh. I can say Pippen is better than both Hill and Penny because he has the best career high between the 3


In the 92' WCF, Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 with 53% on threes (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers to the Finals (1b with Clyde).

So Pippen is the only sidekick that never led a series (never a 1b) and had a 22/5 peak - every other sidekick led many series and demonstrated 25-30 ppg capability

Pippen couldn't create his own shot and needed the triangle to get him open looks - he wasn't a go-to scorer that was on the scouting report

Otoh, Penny and Hill could average 25-30 because they were go-to scorers and often the focus of the scouting report

Night and day

[97 bulls]

In the 92' WCF, Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 with 53% on threes (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers to the Finals (1b with Clyde).

So Pippen is the only sidekick that never led a series (never a 1b) and had a 22/5 peak - every other sidekick led many series and demonstrated 25-30 ppg capability

Pippen couldn't create his own shot and needed the triangle to get him open looks - he wasn't a go-to scorer that was on the scouting report

Otoh, Penny and Hill could average 25-30 because they were go-to scorers and often the focus of the scouting report

Night and day

Lol. So all you did was go find the small sample size of another player? Do you even know how to debate?

[3ba11]

Lol. So all you did was go find the small sample size of another player? Do you even know how to debate?


You think it's just Terry Porter that led many series and achieved elite stats?

Every notable 90's sidekick was a 1b that led many series with elite peak capability..... except Pippen..

Heck, KJ averaged 28/5/9 against Hakeem in 2 different 7-game series while Barkley was 2nd fiddle.. He also upset Magic's 1-seed to make the 90' WCF.. Kemp dominated Malone to make the 96' Finals and then nearly won FMVP from MJ.. Worthy led the Lakers in playoff scoring every year from 87-91'.. Stockton averaged 21/11 and hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face to carry the Jazz to the 97' Finals.. And he led many other series for the Jazz as well.

So it isn't a small sample size - only Pippen's entire career is devoid of 1b status (leading a series) or elite statistical capability.

He's the only sidekick that was carried in every series (never a 1b) and the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to scorer or on the scouting report.. the only system player sidekick that was nothing without the triangle.

[HoopsNY]

LOL. This thread is too funny, doing everything to put Kobe far behind Lebum in all time ranking. Kobe was dominating the league like pippen never did, while he was told to hold back on offense. Even 98 (6th man) Kobe had more to offer than most of Pippen's seasons.


3ball is giving you statnerds the business as usual.

HoopsNY is that Dmavs poster btw.

Good grief. To Bran stans, I'm 3ball. To Jordan stans, I'm now Dmavs. You seriously can't make this stuff up.

My point here wasn't to say '91-'93 Pippen > '00-'02 Kobe. My point was to show that the distance between the two was not monumental. And early '90s Pippen was similar to Hill or Penny. What does this mean? Well, that Pippen in the first 3-peat was a freaking great player.

[HoopsNY]

Interesting enough, he'll claim that Jeff Hornaceck is better than Klay Thompson ignoring that Klay has like 5 seasons scoring better than him, but will use selective cases of PPG to say Penny scored better than Pippen. Never mind that Penny in 97, free of Shaq and pre knee injury, couldn't even break 21ppg but gives Pip shit for 'only' scoring at that level. Also never mind that Grant Hill averaged 20.7ppg from 94 to 99 AS FIRST OPTION and only had one breakout scoring season of 25.8 in 2000( before the injury), but acts like Grant was some perennial 25ppg guy.

Hence why I said that Pippen '91-'93 was on the level of guys like Penny and Hill. The difference is really splitting hairs. Let's look at the playoffs and compare:

Pippen '91-'93: 20/8/6/2/1 on 48%

Hill '96-'99: 21/7/6/1/1 on 47%

Penny '95-'99: 22/4/7/2/1 on 46%

Yet somehow, first 3-peat Pippen was far inferior? This is intellectual dishonesty at this point. And Pippen was a vastly superior defender to Hill and Penny. So a 1-2 PPG difference more than makes up for it.

[3ba11]

Good grief. To Bran stans, I'm 3ball. To Jordan stans, I'm now Dmavs. You seriously can't make this stuff up.

My point here wasn't to say '91-'93 Pippen > '00-'02 Kobe. My point was to show that the distance between the two was not monumental. And early '90s Pippen was similar to Hill or Penny. What does this mean? Well, that Pippen in the first 3-peat was a freaking great player.


The reason why no one buys the statistical argument is because of the context - Pippen was mostly an athlete/defender that scored a lot in transition and wasn't a go-to scorer or on the scouting report - he was a system player whose career timeline shows that he was propped up by the triangle and had zero responsibility in the 4th or clutch.

Otoh, Kobe was one of the greatest scorers of all-time, even from 00-02', and this capability was shown in various series throughout that run against the best competition - Kobe routinely averaged 25-30 in many series and carried the Lakers in the clutch - he had the Jordan role in the 4th, where Shaq became the "pippen".

That's why no one buys that an athlete/defender like Pippen is anywhere near one of the greatest scorers, clutch and 2-way players ever

[HoopsNY]

The reason why no one buys the statistical argument is because of the context - Pippen was mostly an athlete/defender that scored a lot in transition and wasn't a go-to scorer or on the scouting report - he was a system player whose career timeline shows that he was propped up by the triangle and had zero responsibility in the 4th or clutch.

Otoh, Kobe was one of the greatest scorers of all-time, even from 00-02', and this capability was shown in various series throughout that run against the best competition - Kobe routinely averaged 25-30 in many series and carried the Lakers in the clutch - he had the Jordan role in the 4th, where Shaq became the "pippen".

That's why no one buys that an athlete/defender like Pippen is anywhere near one of the greatest scorers, clutch and 2-way players ever

You're only focused on scoring. You're not accounting for playmaking and defense. This is where Pippen makes up for it, though not completely. No one ever relied on Pippen's scoring alone to say that he was even. But as a complete package, the first 3-peat Pippen was a great player.

[3ba11]

You're only focused on scoring. You're not accounting for playmaking and defense. This is where Pippen makes up for it, though not completely. No one ever relied on Pippen's scoring alone to say that he was even. But as a complete package, the first 3-peat Pippen was a great player.


Pippen didn't have a breakdown handle and was mainly good at rotating the ball - a mid-tier playmaker that averaged 5 apg

It's easier for low scorers to get assists because they have more available shots to assist on than a higher volume player (that can't assist on their higher volume).

Otoh, Kobe averaged those same 5 apg despite a 10-15 ppg higher scoring burden.. And since Kobe got the same assists despite less available shots, his assist PERCENTAGE is much higher than Pippen's.

So playmaking isn't an advantage for Pippen.. Defensively, they were both great defenders and among the best perimeter defenders ever

[Axe]

i'd say 2000 kobe was a pippen for sure

but 2001 and 2002 kobe was basically a step under jordan.


pippen himself put kobe above jordan. so i dunno what to believe. maybe the guy you're advocating for?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9r3GcylZnI
Both versions don't have finals mvps.