Defensive rebounds & personal assists - what else do Lebron fans think he does better

[3ba11]

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Jordan did more things well then just defensive rebounds and personal assists:



* offensive rebounds

* defense - Lebron didn't make all-defense in his 30's

* taking care of the ball - lower turnovers and better efficiency per possession

* not stopping the ball, ball movement - MJ could run off screens and was the goat quick-iso player

* BEING COACHABLE - able to play any system or strategy, aka no ball-dominance needed

* team assists - ball movement, off-ball, no ball-stopping

* teammate fits and teammate elevation - his on-ball and off-ball game fit with anyone, while his off-ball game elevated teammates to playmaker role, aka allowed young ball-handlers to grow

* knowing how to win, aka brand of ball - learning the best brand and chemistry in the league is required of all organic winners, so Lebron never learned superior brand (how to win) and only learned talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy).

* Individual and team offense - superior individual production rate and team offense (four #1 offenses with much less offensive talent)

* clutch

* commanding doubles

* defeating maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load - no equal-scoring partners needed)

* carry-jobs against good teams (carry bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams)

[ShawkFactory]

I hope for your sake that this was copy and pasted from somewhere

[3ba11]

I hope for your sake that this was copy and pasted from somewhere


Imagine a shallow understanding that thinks defensive rebounds and apg (a small slice of the basketball pie) constitutes "more things" and therefore Lebron "does "more things well"

Oh wait.. you guys don't have to imagine

Carry on

[SouBeachTalents]

Imagine a shallow understanding that thinks defensive rebounds and apg (a small slice of the basketball pie) constitutes "more things" and therefore Lebron "does "more things well"

Oh wait.. you guys don't have to imagine

Carry on
Says the guy who breaks down every single player comparison using only ppgz.

You HAVE to be trolling :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Says the guy who breaks down every single player comparison using only ppgz.

You HAVE to be trolling :lol

Obviously..

[3ba11]

Says the guy who breaks down every single player comparison using only ppgz.





I didn't mention ppg in the OP

The OP lists the things that MJ does better and I was honestly hoping Lebron fans could provide me their list of what Lebron does better....... aside from dreb and apg

Since he does "more things" well I was wondering what "more things" constitutes... Surely it can't be just dreb and frontcourt ball-dominance

[SouBeachTalents]

I didn't mention ppg in the OP

The OP lists the things that MJ does better and I was honestly hoping Lebron fans could provide me their list of what Lebron does better....... aside from dreb and apg

Since he does "more things" well I was wondering what "more things" constitutes... Surely it can't be just dreb and frontcourt ball-dominance
You sure mention it when discussing Pippen. And virtually every other player that isn't LeBron :lol

[3ba11]

The OP forgot to mention fundamentals and elite jumpshooting skill, which drives most of the bullet points, i.e. Jordan's fundamentals & elite jumpshooting skill allowed him to run off screens or quick iso better, and therefore score in a way that promotes more ball movement - the elite jumpshooting skill also allowed him to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load)

Fundamentals, elite jumpshooting skill and pure scoring ability drive all the bullet points in the OP

[3ba11]

You sure mention it when discussing Pippen. And virtually every other player that isn't LeBron :lol


Teams usually have a brand of ball that fits the #1 option skillset, so #1 options drive brand of ball, while secondary options like Pippen can be looked at based on stats only (since they don't determine brand of ball)

Obviously, MJ is a #1 option, so the OP included aspects of his game that drove a superior brand of ball.

Brand of ball matters because it's the primary driver of winning, aside from talent..

Learning the best brand and chemistry in the league is required of all organic winners, so Lebron never learned superior brand (how to win) and only learned talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy).

Btw, scoring is infact the most important category - so I'm not sure why you would be averse to talking about it.. Scoring has sub-categories because not all 30 points is the same - Jordan's 30 can fit with spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Pippen, Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, or Wade

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs

Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill, on-ball/off-ball versatility, and pure scoring ability can play in a wider variety of team strategies/offenses than Lebron, whose frontcourt ball-dominance forces coaches to play 1 way (let their big man dominate the ball) - this is inherently suboptimal and yields low assist teams that can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically.

Ultimately, being a 28/8/8 player with a low assisted rate like Luka, Lebron, Westbrook or Harden means you can only play 1 - ball-dominance - hence those guys often get demolished (even with super-teams) and can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically..

[SouBeachTalents]

Teams usually have a brand of ball that fits the #1 option skillset, so #1 options drive brand of ball, while secondary options like Pippen can be looked at based on stats only (since they don't determine brand of ball)

Obviously, MJ is a #1 option, so the OP included aspects of his game that drove a superior brand of ball.

Brand of ball matters because it's the primary driver of winning, aside from talent..

Learning the best brand and chemistry in the league is required of all organic winners, so Lebron never learned superior brand (how to win) and only learned talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy).

Btw, scoring is infact the most important category - so I'm not sure why you would be averse to talking about it.. Scoring has sub-categories because not all 30 points is the same - Jordan's 30 can fit with spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Pippen, Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, or Wade
I'd agree in principle, but it's far from everything. There is SO much more to basketball than scoring. I'd easily take Pippen over the likes of Dantley/English/Vandeweghe despite being a worse scorer. And those 90's Bulls teams unquestionably get worse replacing Pippen with any of those guys.

What you don't seem to understand after all this time is Pippen was the ideal sidekick for Jordan. Not attempting a ton of shots, GOAT defense, elite all around play, perfectly content to defer to Jordan so he can take all the shots he wants. You replace him with someone like Melo who isn't good at anything besides scoring, the Bulls get worse overall and you only take shots away from Jordan.

[colts19]

I'd agree in principle, but it's far from everything. There is SO much more to basketball than scoring. I'd easily take Pippen over the likes of Dantley/English/Vandeweghe despite being a worse scorer. And those 90's Bulls teams unquestionably get worse replacing Pippen with any of those guys.

What you don't seem to understand after all this time is Pippen was the ideal sidekick for Jordan. Not attempting a ton of shots, GOAT defense, elite all around play, perfectly content to defer to Jordan so he can take all the shots he wants. You replace him with someone like Melo who isn't good at anything besides scoring, the Bulls get worse overall and you only take shots away from Jordan.

I kind of have to agree with this. 3ball spends too much time trying to distract from Pippen's contributions to the Bulls winning when he was really the perfect sidekick to Jordan. Ron Harper was a high scorer when he came to the Bulls, but he kind of faded because if he had continued to try to score he would have taken shots away from Jordan and no one wanted that.

[3ba11]

I'd agree in principle, but it's far from everything. There is SO much more to basketball than scoring. I'd easily take Pippen over the likes of Dantley/English/Vandeweghe despite being a worse scorer. And those 90's Bulls teams unquestionably get worse replacing Pippen with any of those guys.





Nonsense

It costs less to get good defenders than good scorers.. Pippen's weak offense requires peak Jordan or more expensive shooters like Kerr or Kukoc..

Otoh, great offensive firepower like Vandeweghe or Dantley allows the GM to surround him with cheap defenders, or allows them to be the perfect fit amongst cheap defenders - that's the reason numerous sub-par defenders had better defenses than the Bulls like Reggie Miller's 98' Pacers or Magic's Lakers or Terry Porter's Blazers in 92'.. These offensive juggernauts were surrounded by cheap athletes & defenders... The 91' Pistons and 93' Knicks also had better defenses (ECF opponents).






What you don't seem to understand after all this time is Pippen was the ideal sidekick for Jordan. Not attempting a ton of shots, GOAT defense, elite all around play, perfectly content to defer to Jordan so he can take all the shots he wants. You replace him with someone like Melo who isn't good at anything besides scoring, the Bulls get worse overall and you only take shots away from Jordan.





It isn't easier to win by averaging 10-30 more than your sidekick - it's much harder and no one else in history had to do it..

And Pippen was a mid-tier playmaker that averaged 5 apg - an elite playmaker like Stockton or Harden would help MJ more

it harder winning with Iggy-performance at 2nd option (20/5) than winning with Stockton's 21/11 in the 97' WCF (with series walk-off in Barkley's face), or Kemp carrying a team to the Finals like the 96' WCF, or nearly win FMVP from Jordan.. That's just a couple examples.. Every notable 90's sidekick had higher peak capability and led their team in many series (1b's).. MJ/Penny would've won easier and had a better team.

Jordan would win easier with the 1b's that virtually every other winner in history had aside from Hakeem and Dirk - only Jordan had to carry the load in every series - only MJ won that way..

MJ also averaged more assists and more DPOY votes every year - so you're arguing that Pippen was a bummy 16/5/5 player that MJ did everything better than






I'd agree in principle





Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill, on-ball/off-ball versatility, and pure scoring ability can play in a wider variety of team strategies/offenses than Lebron, whose frontcourt ball-dominance forces coaches to play 1 way (let their big man dominate the ball) - this is inherently suboptimal and yields low assist teams that can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically.

Ultimately, being a 28/8/8 player with a low assisted rate like Luka, Lebron, Westbrook or Harden means you can only play 1 way - ball-dominance - hence those guys often get demolished (even with super-teams) and can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically..

[ShawkFactory]

more expensive shooters like Kerr or Kukoc..


Stop :lol

[Westbrook_Fan]

Lebron got FAR more rebounds, especially in the playoffs and Finals, like almost double the rebounds, whereas Jordan only averaged 10% more PPG


Also OP you forgot to add 3 point shooting and overall FG% for LeBron, which means SCORING EFFICIENCY is also in LeBrons favour

[3ba11]

Stop :lol


So now Kukoc and Kerr are bums

Got it.

[3ba11]

Lebron got FAR more rebounds, especially in the playoffs and Finals, like almost double the rebounds, whereas Jordan only averaged 10% more PPG


Also OP you forgot to add 3 point shooting and overall FG% for LeBron, which means SCORING EFFICIENCY is also in LeBrons favour


Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill, on-ball/off-ball versatility, and pure scoring ability can play in a wider variety of team strategies/offenses than Lebron, whose frontcourt ball-dominance forces coaches to play 1 way (let their big man dominate the ball) - this is inherently suboptimal and yields low assist teams that can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically.

Ultimately, being a 28/8/8 player with a low assisted rate like Luka, Lebron, Westbrook or Harden means you can only play 1 way - ball-dominance - hence those guys often get demolished (even with super-teams) and can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically..

[ShawkFactory]

So now Kukoc and Kerr are bums


Lol what? :lol

You are an unhinged individual

[3ba11]

Lol what





Kukoc and Kerr were better offensive options than Pippen who shot below league average true shooting for every year of his playoff career except 89-91', and had zero responsibility in the clutch (literally the last option in the clutch - he's the only sidekick that was useless in the 4th).

Jordan would've beaten 94' Ewing and won the title with just Kukoc/Kerr, since Pippen's historic bed-wetting and choking almost did (21.7 on 40%)...

Any coach that used Jordan's goat scoring strategically (later in shot clocks rather than trying to find him right away, predictable) would've won with Jordan.. Pippen was just the low-producing bum that coattailed.






:lol





The larger point is that scorers are more expensive than defenders, so it's easier to surround a good scorer like Miller with McKey and the Davis brothers then it is to surround Pippen with Jordan or the best 3-point shooter in the league (Kerr).

And is the argument that Pippen took a defensive burden off MJ?... Because MJ still had to get more DPOY votes than Pippen every year (top 5 DPOY every year) and lead the Bulls in apg and assist percentage.

So you guys are just lying by regurgitating the talking points of clutch sports






You are an unhinged individual





No you're deranged for spending your time on the internet calling other people unhinged

[ShawkFactory]

No you're deranged for spending your time on the internet calling other people unhinged

:kobe:

[Full Court]

I'm a fair-minded person and give credit where it's due. Lebron actually does a lot of things better than Jordan ever did.

Colludes better.

Flops better.

Gets coaches fired better.

Team-hops better.

Travels better.

Offensive fouls better.

Chokes better.

Makes excuses better.

[Baller789]

I'm a fair-minded person and give credit where it's due. Lebron actually does a lot of things better than Jordan ever did.

Colludes better.

Flops better.

Gets coaches fired better.

Team-hops better.

Travels better.

Offensive fouls better.

Chokes better.

Makes excuses better.

Don't forget pretends to be injured better.

See my avy.

[3ba11]

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Revised Thread Cliffs


Lebron only knows how to play 1 way (big man ball-dominance), so he ties the coach's hands and forces them to implement a beginner format with the big man dominating the ball and 4 shooters around him.

28/8/8 players with a low assisted rate (ball-dominators) like Luka, Lebron, Westbrook or Harden only play 1 way - ball-dominance - hence those guys often get demolished (even with super-teams) and can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically..

Otoh, Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill, post dominance and on-ball/off-ball versatility can play in a wider variety of team strategies and high-assist formats that that yield the best brand of ball or teammate fits, as required to win organically.

[3ba11]

.
Revised Thread Cliffs


Lebron only knows how to play 1 way (big man ball-dominance), so he ties the coach's hands and forces them to implement a beginner format with the big man dominating the ball and 4 shooters around him.

28/8/8 players with a low assisted rate (ball-dominators) like Luka, Lebron, Westbrook or Harden only play 1 way - ball-dominance - hence those guys often get demolished (even with super-teams) and can't achieve the best brand of ball in the league, as required to win organically..

Otoh, Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill, post dominance and on-ball/off-ball versatility can play in a wider variety of team strategies and high-assist formats that that yield the best brand of ball or teammate fits, as required to win organically.


Big man ball-dominance - woat brand of ball

hogties coaches to play a beginner format where Shaq plays PG

"does more things well tho"... #2 all-time.. :yaohappy:


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/9f/79/609f79c036f54c4564ab72e0f89df98f.gif

[Westbrook_Fan]

Big man ball-dominance - woat brand of ball

hogties coaches to play a beginner format where Shaq plays PG

"does more things well tho"... #2 all-time.. :yaohappy:


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/9f/79/609f79c036f54c4564ab72e0f89df98f.gif


Similar PPG

Double the rebounds (in playoffs and Finals)

Double the assists (in playoffs and Finals)

Better FG%

Better 3 point %

Better DTRG on defense (So LeBron statistically played better defense, whereas Jordan got defensive awards from reputation)

More 30+ PER playoff runs

More 30+ PER Finals runs

Better overall Finals performance (LeBron has 2 of the 3 best Finals games ever according to GameScore)



Refute each point :yaohappy: :hammertime:

[3ba11]

I'd agree in principle, but it's far from everything. There is SO much more to basketball than scoring. I'd easily take Pippen over the likes of Dantley/English/Vandeweghe despite being a worse scorer. And those 90's Bulls teams unquestionably get worse replacing Pippen with any of those guys.

What you don't seem to understand after all this time is Pippen was the ideal sidekick for Jordan. Not attempting a ton of shots, GOAT defense, elite all around play, perfectly content to defer to Jordan so he can take all the shots he wants. You replace him with someone like Melo who isn't good at anything besides scoring, the Bulls get worse overall and you only take shots away from Jordan.


If it's easy to win with a sidekick that makes you carry the scoring load...... then why is that a rare way to win (94' Hakeem, 11' Dirk, Jordan 6x)?.. Why does everyone else win with equal-scoring partners in the playoffs and/or Finals?

Carrying the scoring load (facing maximum defensive attention) is obviously the harder way to win.. And Pippen's mid-tier playmaking (5 apg) and defense didn't alleviate burden because Jordan still had to get more DPOY votes every year and average more APG and assist percentage.. If Pippen's 5 apg helped Jordan then 20/10 guys like Payton, KJ or Hardaway would've helped more.

Ultimately, today's spacing wouldn't benefit Pippen like say Luka or Harden because he lacks a breakdown handle and scoring/shooting ability ability to be one of the guys with a high hold-time..

In today's game Pippen would be a better-dunking Roberson without the perfect situation and Iggy with it

[3ba11]

Similar PPG... 5 more ppg with better efficiency per possession.. there's never been a 1st option that averaged 5 more on better efficiency and winning that wasn't considered the far superior player

1.5 more APG (in playoffs and Finals) and low team assist... useless ball-dominance from frontcourt that creates 2 point guard lineups (2 players on floor with a point guard hold-time) that give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups.. Lower teammate assists equals low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level

Better FG%... due to stiff-arm rim attack which is too ball-dominant to beat good teams at high scoring levels... Otoh, Jordan's elite jumpshooting skill was partially-assisted (off-ball), thereby elevating teammates and ball movement for the highest team ceilings/Finals records

Furthermore, FG% falls under the umbrella of efficiency per possession (ortg), where Jordan's is higher due to superior ball control and smarts (lower turnovers)

Better 3 point %.... Not in playoffs from the regular line or in Finals... And not when Jordan had more than bailout volume (43% on 5 attempts in 92' Finals... 39% on 4 attempts in 93' Playoffs

Better DTRG on defense (So LeBron statistically played better defense, whereas Jordan got defensive awards from reputation)... Individual Drtg isn't a viable stat per it's creators - it's a dreb counter, which is why Bird has better Drtg too

More 30+ PER playoff runs... See next response

More 30+ PER Finals runs... Jordan is #1 in career PER despite facing maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load; no periods with equal-scoring partners)

Better overall Finals performance (LeBron has 2 of the 3 best Finals games ever according to GameScore)... Biggest loser ever in Finals, aka his teams are the worst "comp" ever.. lottery record vs Spurs/Warriors/Mavs organic teams, aka 90's style teams that stayed together with long-standing chemistry



Refute each point :yaohappy: :hammertime:


Done