Why is Lebron the worst fit Westbrook ever had - I thought Lebron was #2

[3ba11]

Title

[Johnny32]

pretty obvious why. lebron does everything westbrook does but better.

[RogueBorg]

pretty obvious why. lebron does everything westbrook does but better.

Even turnovers, I agree OP.

[Johnny32]

imagine even trying to suggest westbrook makes better decisions with the ball than lebron.

[3ba11]

imagine even trying to suggest westbrook makes better decisions with the ball than lebron.


I understand that Lebron is like Shaq in the sense that Shaq had to play in the paint and Lebron has to dominate the ball - it would be silly to ask them to run off screens and have a wonderful movement and ball movement team.

And that's why Jordan is viewed as superior to Shaq - Jordan isn't restricted and doesn't have to catch the ball in the paint.. Similarly, Jordan doesn't have to dominate the ball like Lebron - Jordan can get 50 off-ball, while teammates achieve maximum stats with the ball and the team uses the best strategy (ball movement)..

Coaches can run any system with Jordan's on-ball and off-ball game, complete with elite jumpshooting skill, whereas Lebron's big man ball-dominance hog-ties coaches and forces them to play one way - a a low movement team and low-assist team that needs more help regardless of cast

[Johnny32]

I understand that Lebron is like Shaq in the sense that Shaq had to play in the paint and Lebron has to dominate the ball - it would be silly to ask them to run off screens and have a wonderful movement and ball movement team.

And that's why Jordan is viewed as superior to Shaq - Jordan isn't restricted and doesn't have to catch the ball in the paint.. Similarly, Jordan doesn't have to dominate the ball like Lebron - Jordan can get 50 off-ball, while teammates achieve maximum stats with the ball and the team uses the best strategy (ball movement).. Coaches can run any system with Jordan's all-time on-ball and off-ball game, complete with elite jumpshooting skill, whereas Lebron's big man ball-dominance hog-ties coaches and forces them to play one way and have a low movement team.

mj dominated the ball you autistic freak.

[3ba11]

mj dominated the ball you autistic freak.


MJ was an off-guard and a quick iso player with elite jumpshooting skill - he was about 50/50 on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with everyone

Otoh, Lebron is a big man ball-dominator (the worst kind of ball-dominance) that only fits with elite shooters.. So he needs more help like Pau at 3rd option (I mean Bosh or Love)

[Johnny32]

MJ was an off-guard and a quick iso player with elite jumpshooting skill - he was about 50/50 on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with everyone

Otoh, Lebron is a big man ball-dominator (the worst kind of ball-dominance) that only fits with elite shooters.. So he needs more help like Pau at 3rd option (I mean Bosh or Love)

the lakers won the championship with a below avg 3pt shooting team. lebron led the nba in assists running an offense that was second in the lg in postups. go obsess over another angle, weirdo.

[3ba11]

the lakers won the championship with a below avg 3pt shooting team. lebron led the nba in assists running an offense that was second in the lg in postups. go obsess over another angle, weirdo.


Lebron was lottery out West without AD being the leading scorer and lifting the Lakers from lottery to champion - that's literally what happened and Lebron was the lower-scoring "pippen"

I can provide the dates that the Lakers were lottery and the date that AD lifted them to champion - it's historical record

So face facts - Lebron is a ball-dominator - that's the only way he knows how to play (big man ball-dominance, aka the worst kind of ball-dominance) which hog-ties coaches into playing a low ball movement brand that needs ridiculous help to win (needs Pau at 3rd option, I mean Bosh and Love)

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron was lottery out West without AD being the leading scorer and lifting the Lakers from lottery to champion - that's literally what happened and Lebron was the lower-scoring "pippen"

I can provide the dates that the Lakers were lottery and the date that AD lifted them to champion - it's historical record

Lebron is a ball-dominator - that's the only way he knows how to play, which hog-ties coaches into playing a low ball movement brand that needs ridiculous help to win (needs Pau at 3rd option, I mean Bosh and Love)

They were 4th seed with healthy lebron prior to AD, with the worst roster in the NBA

TRY AGAIN

[3ba11]

They were 4th seed with healthy lebron prior to AD, with the worst roster in the NBA

TRY AGAIN


They were 26-21, which was a 48-win pace and tie for 8 seed but the lost tie-breaker to Clippers

aka LOTTERY

The Lakers were also at lottery pace when Lebron played (29-28)

So you lebron fans are delusional - you don't even understand how he plays (big man ball-dominance, aka the worst kind of ball-dominance), so you don't understand why his rosters are the neediest in NBA history - the story for 2 decades are his teams needing more help regardless of cast

[Johnny32]

Lebron was lottery out West without AD being the leading scorer and lifting the Lakers from lottery to champion - that's literally what happened and Lebron was the lower-scoring "pippen"

I can provide the dates that the Lakers were lottery and the date that AD lifted them to champion - it's historical record

So face facts - Lebron is a ball-dominator - that only fits with elite shooters, that's the only way he knows how to play (big man ball-dominance, aka the worst kind of ball-dominance) which hog-ties coaches into playing a low ball movement brand that needs ridiculous help to win (needs Pau at 3rd option, I mean Bosh and Love)

the lakers won the championship with a below avg 3pt shooting team. lebron led the nba in assists running an offense that was second in the lg in postups. go obsess over another angle, weirdo.

[3ba11]

the lakers won the championship with a below avg 3pt shooting team. lebron led the nba in assists running an offense that was second in the lg in postups. go obsess over another angle, weirdo.


Lebron's exploits as the lower-producing "pippen" mean nothing

Lebron was lottery with the Lakers until AD arrived - Lebron is simply lottery out West without AD to lead the team statistically

[AlternativeAcc.]

They were 26-21, which was a 48-win pace and tie for 8 seed but the lost tie-breaker to Clippers

aka LOTTERY

The Lakers were also at lottery pace when Lebron played (29-28)

So you lebron fans are delusional - you don't even understand how he plays (big man ball-dominance, aka the worst kind of ball-dominance), so you don't understand why his rosters are the neediest in NBA history - the story for 2 decades are his teams needing more help regardless of cast

They were 4th seed at the time he got injured

Warriors were on a 52 win pace at the time. Did they win 52 games?


4th seed with the worst roster in the league, deal with it

[Airupthere]

Even turnovers, I agree OP.

:lebronamazed:

[3ba11]

They were 4th seed at the time he got injured

Warriors were on a 52 win pace at the time. Did they win 52 games?


4th seed with the worst roster in the league, deal with it


Lebron was 29-28 with Ingram/Kuzma/Ball/Caruso/Rondo/KCP/Bradley/McGee and more - that's lottery and that's pathetic

MJ went 6/6 with less

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron was 29-28 with Ingram/Kuzma/Ball/Caruso, aka lottery

MJ went 6/6 with less

No, he was 15-7 with those guys

They were injured all year as well. Learn your history

[3ba11]

No, he was 15-7 with those guys

They were injured all year as well. Learn your history


Healthy Lebron was 29-28 with the 2019 Lakers - that's lottery

Then AD arrived and lifted a lottery team to champion by improving the defense from worst to first, while leading led the Lakers in scoring for regular season and playoffs

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron was 29-28 with the 2020 Lakers - that's lottery

LeBron was injured for most of the season, as was his subpar cast

Won the title the next year and won FMVP :applause:

Kept up with AD's scoring while leading the Lakers in assists by A LOT

GOAT

[3ba11]

Kept up with AD's scoring while leading the Lakers in assists by A LOT





Lebron can only win out West as the "pippen"

He never won without super-teams except as a "pippen"

He also never defeated maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load), so he doesn't compare to MJ, who defeated max defensive attention 6 times

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron can only win out West as the "pippen"

He never won without super-teams except as a "pippen"

Did Pippen keep up with MJ's scoring and lead the Bulls in assists by A LOT? No, but he was by far their best defender and playmaker, so kudos to him


But saying Pippen was a poor mans LeBron is a compliment to both... LeBron was Pippen but with much better scoring and passing.. I'll take it

[3ba11]

Did Pippen keep up with MJ's scoring and lead the Bulls in assists by A LOT? No, but he was by far their best defender and playmaker, so kudos to him





Lebron was carried in the most important category, so he doesn't compare to Jordan.

And 91' Jordan led the assists by a lot too.... But he also led the scoring by a lot, while Lebron has never carried the scoring load for the playoffs and Finals of a title run (never defeated max defensive attention).

Btw, Jordan got more DPOY votes than Pippen every year and led the Bulls in APG and assist percentage for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career.. Jordan assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs, while doubling his scoring average - it's a 1-man team when the 1st option doubles the scoring of the next guy.. 6 rings with 1 guy carrying the load.. 6 carry-jobs with Iggy-performance as the sidekick.

So you're just making things up because that's what the inferior side has to do

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron was carried in the most important category, so he doesn't compare to Jordan.

And 91' Jordan led the assists by a lot too.... But he also led the scoring by a lot, while Lebron has never carried the scoring load for the playoffs and Finals of a title run (never defeated max defensive attention).

Btw, Jordan got more DPOY votes than Pippen every year and led the Bulls in APG and assist percentage for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career.. Jordan assisted 33% more often than Pippen in the playoffs, while doubling his scoring average - it's a 1-man team when the 1st option doubles the scoring of the next guy.. 6 rings with 1 guy carrying the load.. 6 carry-jobs with Iggy-performance as the sidekick.

So you're just making things up because that's what the inferior side has to do

I'm not the one making up false records and lying about obvious truths like pippen > Jordan as a defender and playmaker

I have history and facts on my side. That's why you're bringing up nonsense media votes (that you always dismiss unless it helps your case) as the backbone of your argument

You lose

[3ba11]

I'm not the one making up false records and lying about obvious truths like pippen > Jordan as a defender and playmaker

I have history and facts on my side. That's why you're bringing up nonsense media votes (that you always dismiss unless it helps your case) as the backbone of your argument

You lose


Jordan averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career, while also getting more DPOY votes basically every year:



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jordan averaged more assists and assist percentage than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career, while also getting more DPOY votes basically every year:



DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)


93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:



ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s



^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

See, I made you turn this into a MJ vs. Pippen discussion because you already lost the other argument


And everyone knows Pippen > Jordan as a defender and playmaker, just like we know Dray > most at defense and playmaking although the basic raw stats sometimes won't spell that out

Pippen was a better scoring Dray, and the engine/leader of the 90's Bulls

[ShawkFactory]

I only watched a few possessions of the game last night and there was one where Lebron grabbed a rebound by the FT line and started a break but then pulled it back because he didn’t have the explosion.

Even 3-4 years ago he attacks the basket in that scenario and either scores or gets fouled. Either way he keeps the defense on edge. Now they know that he isn’t going to beat them like that anymore. It was interesting to see.

[3ba11]

I only watched a few possessions of the game last night and there was one where Lebron grabbed a rebound by the FT line and started a break but then pulled it back because he didn’t have the explosion.

Even 3-4 years ago he attacks the basket in that scenario and either scores or gets fouled. Either way he keeps the defense on edge. Now they know that he isn’t going to beat them like that anymore. It was interesting to see.


Well he teamed up with the wrong superstar

AD probably wasn't a threat to win the West like Wade was in the East.. Teaming up with Wade and taking out your primary competition is like Bird taking out the Pistons with a Bird/Isiah collusion, or Jordan teaming up with Ewing.

So Lebron should've teamed up with Booker, which would lock up the West for many years like he did the East with Wade or Kyrie

But back on topic - the #2 player ever is supposed to be good enough at basketball to fit with anyone - unfortunately, Lebron's bad fits with Westbrook, Kuzma, Ingram, Jamison, Hughes, Wade, Bosh, Love, Rose and many more show that he can only play 1 way (big man ball-dominance).. In addition these bad teammate fits, this brand hamstrings coaches - they're forced into a low team assist beginner format where they must let their big dominate the ball