Were we lied to about how bad the 2007 Cavs roster was?

[RogueBorg]

For years we've been told by Lebronstans that the 2007 Cavaliers were a terrible supporting cast. Yet the 2007 version of Lebron James (scored fewer points per game, shot at a lower% from both 2 and 3, grabbed less rebounds, averaged less blocks, and had essentially the same numbers of steals as the 2021-22 version of Lebron) went to the NBA Finals while this better version of Lebron James is going to miss the playoffs. Was Lebron's 2007 Cavs teammates a whole lot better than we were initially led to believe and better than this Lakers team that has 5 Hall of Famers and 4 players on the NBA's 75th Anniversay ALL-NBA Team?

Get in here Lebronstans and explain how is this possible.

Note-in 25 years when Dwight Howard is placed on the league's 100th Anniversary ALL-NBA team this will look worse for Lebron.

[2much_knowledge]

It wasnt bad at all and the east was a cakewalk to the finals

[theman93]

Yes we were indeed lied to. A better version of Lebron (2022) won’t even make the playoffs while a worse version of Lebron (2007) went to the NBA Finals.

The difference? The supporting cast. They beat up on a terrible Eastern Conference on top of being severely underrated.

[Johnny32]

lebron led hughes to the finals as his second option. mj led hughes to the lottery as his third option.

good topic. do another.

[Airupthere]

Not a look good for young lebron lol. Not a good look for lebron eitherway. Yikes!

[RogueBorg]

lebron led hughes to the finals as his second option. mj led hughes to the lottery as his third option.

good topic. do another.

Nice attempt at diversion. This topic is about Lebron and the 2007 Cavs and 2022 Lakers. Stay on point.

You're struggling with this one. I'll wait til you gather yourself before confusing you with another one.

You're welcome.

[Rysio]

League is better now and LeBron was a youngster full of energy back then and the whole team played defense. Talent and stats don't always result in wins.

[Spurs m8]

Not a look good for young lebron lol. Not a good look for lebron eitherway. Yikes!

Nothing is a good look for Bron, if you analyse his career properly.

That's why his fans are clinging onto longevity stats now.

Which includes most turnovers ever :roll:

Most playoff turnovers ever :roll:

Most playoff missed shots ever :roll:

There's a reason his stans are doing mental gymnastics all day and the only way to prop up their hero is to try and rip others down

:roll::roll:

[Johnny32]

fax hurt my feelings.

yeah it's embarrassing.

[tpols]

When you consider the fact LeBron averaged 22 ppg on like 30% shooting in the Finals, yet Cleveland was in every game late right within striking distance vs the spurs that should tell you about his help. Same thing happened in 2008. He had an atrocious series vs Boston yet it was a close 7 game series. He had plenty of help. Jordan even in his worst playoff series would've produced enough to win in those cases because his worst playoff series was far better than Lebrons worst and the series were close.

[Johnny32]

When you consider the fact LeBron averaged 22 ppg on like 30% shooting in the Finals, yet Cleveland was in every game late right within striking distance vs the spurs

good point. this really tells us how bad the mid 90s thru early to mid 00s really was offensively. doesn't say much for mj's last 3 though.

[tpols]

good point. this really tells us how bad the mid 90s thru early to mid 00s really was offensively. doesn't say much for mj's last 3 though.

Nah guys were actually able to play defense back then. A league with prime MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Clyde, Reggie, etc. etc. isn't weak offensively. It was a mans game back then not a soft ass tik tok kiddy league like today.

[RogueBorg]

I'm a dumbass and not very smart

We know, it'll be ok.

[SouBeachTalents]

When you consider the fact LeBron averaged 22 ppg on like 30% shooting in the Finals, yet Cleveland was in every game late right within striking distance vs the spurs that should tell you about his help. Same thing happened in 2008. He had an atrocious series vs Boston yet it was a close 7 game series. He had plenty of help. Jordan even in his worst playoff series would've produced enough to win in those cases because his worst playoff series was far better than Lebrons worst and the series were close.
The Cavs got their doors blown off in the first 2 games in '07, they were down a ton of points in the 4th before going on inconsequential runs that made the games appear closer than they actually were.

And sure, LeBron was awful in the first 4 games against the Celtics, but on the flip side he averaged 40 ppg over the final 2 games in Boston, and the Cavs lost both of them.

Something tells me if you were to make this argument for Kobe's '06 team, you wouldn't buy he had "plenty of help" despite Odom having a better series than anyone on LeBron's first Cavs stint could ever dream of. Oh, and Phil Jackson as coach :lol

[Johnny32]

Nah guys were actually able to play defense back then.

false. offenses were terrible. defenses were handicapped by the rules forced to play man/double and it still didn't matter.

[Johnny32]

We know, it'll be ok.

you seem upset. topic not going how you'd like?

LeAw.

[Johnny32]

lebron led hughes to the finals as his second option. mj led hughes to the lottery as his third option.

good topic. do another.

this one hurt her, deep and hard.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Pippen > Jordan

[3ba11]

The East was mostly won by 1-star teams, including 5 times from 01-09' (Iverson, Dwight, Kidd and 07' Lebron twice).

So Lebron's runs in 07', 15' and 18' were supposed to be what happened in 09' and 10', when Lebron lost the East despite homecourt advantage - this drove him to form super-teams in the weak conference to guarantee Finals going forward (the "decision" to start stacking the deck).

Ultimately, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas needed to add a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs (hughes) - so Lebron had 3 years to develop his team into a high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs.. Lebron only had high seeds for his whole career because his low seeds missed the playoffs in 04', 05' and 19' - so he never had to carry his worst teams in the playoffs - his only low seed was 2021 (1st Round exit)

[ArbitraryWater]

I‘m confused.


The title is about the roster but the post is about LeBron.

[Airupthere]

I‘m confused.


The title is about the roster but the post is about LeBron.

You’ll get there

[HylianNightmare]

Varejeo, drew Gooden, Eric snow, Gibson and big z

[Baller789]

false. offenses were terrible. defenses were handicapped by the rules forced to play man/double and it still didn't matter.

Stick to the topic. It's about the 2007 Cavs.
You guys practically have no defense without spouting 90's MJ. Lmao!

[Baller789]

Pippen > Jordan

Ot=desperation :lol

[Johnny32]

Stick to the topic. It's about the 2007 Cavs.
You guys practically have no defense without spouting 90's MJ. Lmao!

the roster was obviously below average. the offense was 95% dependent on lebron. hughes was a slasher/defender who couldn't shoot. he was also hurt that run. gooden is low eye iq as fk on defense and offense but can rebound. snow trash offense good defense. z was slow as fk but big. career extended multiple yrs making 15 foot jumpers off lebron's penetration. av good floppy defender, pick and roll with lebron is his only offense. marshall 3s off lebron drives is his offense. sasha and gibson were out of the lg in their 20s post-lebron.

[ImKobe]

They had a top 5 defense and were #1 in offensive rebounding (#2 overall with a below-average pace at that). The Cavs were a good team considering how bad the EC was at the time. They were a #2 seed and the #1 seed Pistons got rid of Larry Brown and Ben Wallace and brought in a washed up C-Webb, who retired the following season. Cavs had a great defense and great size in the front court + a superstar, which is all you needed to make the Finals in the East. The Bulls with Ben Wallace & Luol Deng took the Pistons to 6 games... It's as bad as the East ever was tbh.

Some of y'all here act like the Cavs were a 7th seed and made this miracle run when in reality they only won 3 less RS games than the Pistons and had the only great All-NBA player in that Conference as Shaq & Wade both dealt with injuries and missed 30+ games. Not a single EC player was 1st Team All-NBA and the EC only had 6 overall. Cavs had to beat two .500 teams and a 53-win Pistons squad to make the Finals. That's one of the weakest run of opponents any Finals team has had to go through in the modern NBA. There's some other examples from 07-18 EC where Bran had little to no competition to make the Finals because in some seasons WC had 10 or more All-NBA players while Bran also played with an All-NBA teammate.

[1987_Lakers]

The 2006 Lakers had a better 2nd option in Odom, yet Kobe blew a 3-1 lead and choked a game 7 in the first round.

:oldlol:

[ImKobe]

The 2006 Lakers had a better 2nd option in Odom, yet Kobe blew a 3-1 lead and choked a game 7 in the first round.

:oldlol:

What does that have to do with the 2007 Cavs? Were the '06 Lakers a #2 seed? Did they have an elite defense? Did they play a .500 team in the 1st round?

Also

Lebron's 2nd option vs Spurs in '07 - 12.8 ppg 50%FG
Gasol vs Spurs '08 WCF - 13.2 ppg 44.6%FG

One team got swept, the other beat the Spurs in 5. I wonder why.

[1987_Lakers]

What does that have to do with the 2007 Cavs? Were the '06 Lakers a #2 seed? Did they have an elite defense? Did they play a .500 team in the 1st round?

Also

Lebron's 2nd option vs Spurs in '07 - 12.8 ppg 50%FG
Gasol vs Spurs '08 WCF - 13.2 ppg 44.6%FG

One team got swept, the other beat the Spurs in 5. I wonder why.

2007 Cavs - # 7 in SRS
2006 Lakers - #7 in SRS (#7 Offense as well)

2nd option production in the postseason

'06 Odom: 19/11/5 on 50 fg%
'07 Big Z: 13/10 on 49 fg%

One team made the Finals while the other blew a 3-1 lead with Kobe basically quitting in game 7. I wonder why.

[1987_Lakers]

If we are gonna call the 2007 Cavs a good team, we might as well put the 2006 Lakers on that same tier as well.

[RogueBorg]

If we are gonna call the 2007 Cavs a good team

So that's kinda my point, you Lebronstans are hestitant about calling them a good team. For years everyone said the 2007 Cavs were not a good team and that Lebron carried them to the Finals right?

So if they really were bad, how is it that 2007 Lebron was able to get them to the Finals when this years LeBron can't get the 2022 Lakers to the playoffs despite having 5 Hall of Famers on the current roster.

Have we been lied to about how bad that 2007 Cavs team was?

[ShawkFactory]

This isn’t a better version of Lebron.

And that supporting cast was not very good. Wasn’t awful or anything, but certainly not good.

[TheCorporation]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/cavaliers/2006team_photo.jpg

You tell me. Name me 3 players not named LeBron :lol

NEXT

[1987_Lakers]

So that's kinda my point, you Lebronstans are hestitant about calling them a good team. For years everyone said the 2007 Cavs were not a good team and that Lebron carried them to the Finals right?

So if they really were bad, how is it that 2007 Lebron was able to get them to the Finals when this years LeBron can't get the 2022 Lakers to the playoffs despite having 5 Hall of Famers on the current roster.

Have we been lied to about how bad that 2007 Cavs team was?

With AD out, this Lakers team is worse than the 2007 Cavs. Westbrook is basically a net negative out there then you have Carmelo who is the worst defender in the NBA , that leaves Monk & THT as your other notable players, not exactly a great cast. Also have to factor in that the Lakers play in a tougher conference than the 2007 Cavs did.

It's common sense.

[SouBeachTalents]

With AD out, this Lakers team is worse than the 2007 Cavs. Westbrook is basically a net negative out there then you have Carmelo who is the worst defender in the NBA , that leaves Monk & THT as your other notable players, not exactly a great cast. Also have to factor in that the Lakers play in a tougher conference than the 2007 Cavs did.

It's common sense.
You're talking about common sense with the guy who keeps spouting off about the Lakers having 5 HOF's :lol Clearly somebody not interested in having a legitimate or honest conversation.

[ImKobe]

2007 Cavs - # 7 in SRS
2006 Lakers - #7 in SRS (#7 Offense as well)

2nd option production in the postseason

'06 Odom: 19/11/5 on 50 fg%
'07 Big Z: 13/10 on 49 fg%

One team made the Finals while the other blew a 3-1 lead with Kobe basically quitting in game 7. I wonder why.

Lakers won 45 games and were the #7 seed, the Cavs won 50 and were the #2 seed.

Ok so both teams were 7th in SRS in those seasons. The Western Conference had 5 of the top 7 SRS teams in '06. Lakers had the better offense but were average at best on D while the Cavs had an elite D and a top 3 rebounding team in the league. Suns had the better SRS & the better record than any team Lebron faced in his EC Playoff run. The '07 Pistons were 6th in SRS with 3.69 while the '06 Suns were 4th with a 5.48 and the Suns won 54 games and were the #2 seed, though they had the 3rd best record in the West but winning the Division meant that they had a higher seed than the Mavs.


Suns played at the fastest pace in the league so the numbers look inflated but Kobe did not have more help, Lakers' defense was nowhere near as good as Cleveland's and the WC offenses were superior to the East's. There's a huge difference between Kwame & Big Z at the 5. Kwame's numbers might look good in that Suns' series but again that's with the Suns playing small and at a higher pace but it was a disaster on the other end, right up until that moment when they couldn't get the defensive rebound that led to Kwame getting pump-faked by Tim Thomas who hit the 3 that saved the Suns' season.


Nothing you bring up makes the '07 EC run look any better, the Cavs weren't great but they were good enough to be 3 games out of the #1 seed while the Lakers barely made the POs. If you're arguing that the EC was not as bad as I'm making it out to be, then the Cavs being the #2 seed means that Lebron had a better team either way.

[iamgine]

2007 Cavs were bad but this Lakers team is much worse.

[1987_Lakers]

Lakers won 45 games and were the #7 seed, the Cavs won 50 and were the #2 seed.

Ok so both teams were 7th in SRS in those seasons. The Western Conference had 5 of the top 7 SRS teams in '06. Lakers had the better offense but were average at best on D while the Cavs had an elite D and a top 3 rebounding team in the league. Suns had the better SRS & the better record than any team Lebron faced in his EC Playoff run. The '07 Pistons were 6th in SRS with 3.69 while the '06 Suns were 4th with a 5.48 and the Suns won 54 games and were the #2 seed, though they had the 3rd best record in the West but winning the Division meant that they had a higher seed than the Mavs.


Suns played at the fastest pace in the league so the numbers look inflated but Kobe did not have more help, Lakers' defense was nowhere near as good as Cleveland's and the WC offenses were superior to the East's. There's a huge difference between Kwame & Big Z at the 5. Kwame's numbers might look good in that Suns' series but again that's with the Suns playing small and at a higher pace but it was a disaster on the other end, right up until that moment when they couldn't get the defensive rebound that led to Kwame getting pump-faked by Tim Thomas who hit the 3 that saved the Suns' season.


Nothing you bring up makes the '07 EC run look any better, the Cavs weren't great but they were good enough to be 3 games out of the #1 seed while the Lakers barely made the POs. If you're arguing that the EC was not as bad as I'm making it out to be, then the Cavs being the #2 seed means that Lebron had a better team either way.

Both casts were nothing to brag about, I just find it funny how a couple of days ago you stated that Bird never played with a 2nd option like prime Wade to make a point how those Miami teams were just as good as those 80's Celtics teams, but right when it gets thrown back in your face with '06 Odom > anyone on the '07 Cavs you just can't accept it.

I'll even say '06 Kobe was a better player than '07 LeBron, but what's funny is despite Kobe having this reputation of being so clutch he blew a 3-1 lead, and in that game 7 we lost by 30+ with Kobe only having 1 god damn point in the 2nd half.

Yes, the Lakers were underdogs the whole time, but the 2007 Cavs were also underdogs vs the Pistons in 2007, from what I remember almost nobody gave them a shot to win that series and in a crucial game 5 LeBron finished with 49 points, including 29 in the 4th & OT. LeBron stepped up when his weak team needed him, Kobe didn't, that's why the Cavs made a deeper run.

Seriously arguing who had a better cast is like arguing which food tastes better between Anchovies and Brussel Sprouts. Both casts were ass and for you to act like the 2007 Cavs were some sort of a championship caliber team is pathetic.

[999Guy]

Defense-first teams will automatically get underrated.

People still think Iverson “carried” a better player in Dike, and good defenders in Philly to the finals.


A team like the 2014 Heat, or 2018 Cavs were probably worse than the 07 Cavs. Especially in a playoff series.

[ImKobe]

Both casts were nothing to brag about, I just find it funny how a couple of days ago you stated that Bird never played with a 2nd option like prime Wade to make a point how those Miami teams were just as good as those 80's Celtics teams, but right when it gets thrown back in your face with '06 Odom > anyone on the '07 Cavs you just can't accept it.

I'll even say '06 Kobe was a better player than '07 LeBron, but what's funny is despite Kobe having this reputation of being so clutch he blew a 3-1 lead, and in that game 7 we lost by 30+ with Kobe only having 1 god damn point in the 2nd half.

Yes, the Lakers were underdogs the whole time, but the 2007 Cavs were also underdogs vs the Pistons in 2007, from what I remember almost nobody gave them a shot to win that series and in a crucial game 5 LeBron finished with 49 points, including 29 in the 4th & OT. LeBron stepped up when his weak team needed him, Kobe didn't, that's why the Cavs made a deeper run.

Seriously arguing who had a better cast is like arguing which food tastes better between Anchovies and Brussel Sprouts. Both casts were ass and for you to act like the 2007 Cavs were some sort of a championship caliber team is pathetic.

The Cavs had Big Z, and the value he brought on defense is something you don't completely see on the stat sheet. Heck, I'll even give you Odom being the better 2nd option but the overall supporting cast for Lebron was still better because of the defense and the rebounding he had around him, and the fact that he played in a Conference that didn't have a true title contender which made it possible for him to have a Finals run under his belt.

You make the "Kobe is not clutch" argument but don't mention him putting them up 3 - 1 with clutch shots or hitting the go-ahead 3 and another shot to put them up 3 when the Lakers choked on defense at the end of the 4th in Game 6.

Just because they weren't clear favorites doesn't mean that the Pistons were the 2017 Warriors. Suns were the clear favorites against the Lakers in '06, it was an upset that they even pushed it to 7 games. Kobe played well enough to close it out in 6 and they couldn't get a stop when it mattered.

And again, I never said that the Cavs were true title contender, just that Lebron had a solid team around him in a weak Conference. Help doesn't just mean scoring either as I've already pointed out here.

[1987_Lakers]

The Cavs had Big Z, and the value he brought on defense is something you don't completely see on the stat sheet. Heck, I'll even give you Odom being the better 2nd option but the overall supporting cast for Lebron was still better because of the defense and the rebounding he had around him, and the fact that he played in a Conference that didn't have a true title contender which made it possible for him to have a Finals run under his belt.

And in that game 6 where Kobe played great, Odom also had 22/11/9 and even Kwame tapped in with 17/9. But at the end of the day...

Are we really gonna argue who was better between Odom, Smush, Kwame, Walton and Big Z, Gooden, Hughes, & Gibson? Both casts are trash. You and all the trolls in this thread should be ashamed for hyping up that Cavs team like they were some power house.

[ImKobe]

And in that game 6 where Kobe played great, Odom also had 22/11/9 and even Kwame tapped in with 17/9. But at the end of the day...

Are we really gonna argue who was better between Odom, Smush, Kwame, Walton and Big Z, Gooden, Hughes, & Gibson? Both casts are trash. You and all the trolls in this thread should be ashamed for hyping up that Cavs team like they were some power house.

Ok, so how did they have an elite defense? Does that side of the court not matter now? Billups was the Pistons' best player and they held him to just 15/4/4 averages in ~44 mpg with more turnovers than assists when he averaged 7 ast to 2 TO per game all season and played really well the first 2 rounds lol.

[1987_Lakers]

Ok, so how did they have an elite defense? Does that side of the court not matter now? Billups was the Pistons' best player and they held him to just 15/4/4 averages in ~44 mpg with more turnovers than assists when he averaged 7 ast to 2 TO per game all season and played really well the first 2 rounds lol.

The Dallas Mavericks with Dirk had a top 5 defense that year as well. Get real, Unlike you, I watched the NBA at the time and nobody considered the Cavs to be some defensive power house.

[ImKobe]

The Dallas Mavericks with Dirk had a top 5 defense that year as well. Get real, Unlike you, I watched the NBA at the time and nobody considered the Cavs to be some defensive power house.

OK, so how were they 4th in DRTG & #1 in OPP 3PT%, #8 in OPP FG% and 2nd in TRB w/ #1 in OREB? You think none of these things matter huh? It was just Lebron playing defense on everyone and grabbing every rebound? No one's disputing that he had mediocre help on offense (18th ORTG) but the defense was elite and Cavs had the best player in the Conference so that was good enough to beat those mediocre teams to make the Finals.

[1987_Lakers]

OK, so how were they 4th in DRTG & #1 in OPP 3PT%, #8 in OPP FG% and 2nd in TRB w/ #1 in OREB? You think none of these things matter huh? It was just Lebron playing defense on everyone and grabbing every rebound? No one's disputing that he had mediocre help on offense (18th ORTG) but the defense was elite and Cavs had the best player in the Conference so that was good enough to beat those mediocre teams to make the Finals.

How did the Cavs do without LeBron?

[ImKobe]

How did the Cavs do without LeBron?

They're doing really well right now, actually a lot better than the Lakers.

Even Kuzma's Wizards have a better record than the Lakers right now. Tough times.

Who's the next player you're going to stan? Or are you going to be like 3Ball and ride Lebron's nuts for the next 30 years?

[1987_Lakers]

They're doing really well right now, actually a lot better than the Lakers.

Even Kuzma's Wizards have a better record than the Lakers right now. Tough times.

Who's the next player you're going to stan? Or are you going to be like 3Ball and ride Lebron's nuts for the next 30 years?

Slick way of trying to deflect, but you know damn well those 2007 Cavs would have been a lottery team without LeBron.

Their defense also dropped to like #29 the moment he left in 2011, despite most of the Cavs players from 2010 still being there.

[Baller789]

The argunent that the 2007 Cavs were bad, but this Lakers without AD is worse is hilarious.

One made it to the finals, one looks like a lottery team.

And the argument that the Cavs were lottery bound after Lebron left, well lools like they are lottery bound with Lebron right now.

:roll:

[jbryan1984]

They really weren't as bad as people say. I always felt it was mostly due to them being swept but an amazing, in their prime Spurs team and everybody still talks about the Detroit game where LeBron single handedly came back and beat them in the ECF. Don't forget, Larry Hughes was hurt and didn't even play the entire series (44 minutes total in the entire series). He was coming off an amazing breakout season the year before. Eric Snow also hardly played and was in the beginning of the end of his career. But at the time, Z was still considered an all-star center, Drew Gooden one of the better PF's in the east. Anderson Varejao was up and coming and a great bench support. Daniel Gibson had his best year, as a rookie. Damon Jones was one of the better three point shooters. Just gotta remember, this was 15 years ago. Its easy to look back on the careers these guys finished with now. But they were not all that bad in 2007.

[Spurs m8]

The argunent that the 2007 Cavs were bad, but this Lakers without AD is worse is hilarious.

One made it to the finals, one looks like a lottery team.

And the argument that the Cavs were lottery bound after Lebron left, well lools like they are lottery bound with Lebron right now.

:roll:

:roll:

[Johnny32]

the roster was obviously below average. the offense was 95% dependent on lebron. hughes was a slasher/defender who couldn't shoot. he was also hurt that run. gooden is low eye iq as fk on defense and offense but can rebound. snow trash offense good defense. z was slow as fk but big. career extended multiple yrs making 15 foot jumpers off lebron's penetration. av good floppy defender, pick and roll with lebron is his only offense. marshall 3s off lebron drives is his offense. sasha and gibson were out of the lg in their 20s post-lebron.

nerd got shit on with facts then hid for hours before showing his fat sweaty face again. embarrassing.