Would you say there is a number that accounts for what Lowry did here?

[Kblaze8855]

https://i.ibb.co/qDwQg88/IMG-8432.gif





If you wanted to credit that and track the ability to do it…how would you go about it?

He maaaay have been given a screen assist I suppose but that isn’t an accurate description.


Figure general plus/minus covers everything and not worry about what can’t be tracked?

[3ba11]

That's a designed play that he called out and then was the screen-setter

Looks like something diaw might do

It's system-ball or actual play-calling

[FultzNationRISE]

It’s called a “Lebron Assist.”

It’s when you use your mind to elevate the whole team.

[3ba11]

It’s called a “Lebron Assist.”

It’s when you use your mind to elevate the whole team.


Lebron can't do that.. If his teams could run sophisticated offense instead of his big man ball-dominance, they wouldn't be lottery right now or 4/10

Unfortunately, the big man ball-dominance skillset completely ties a coach's hands, hence the perennial underdog status regardless of cast

[ShawkFactory]

WS/48 seems to account for things like this better than anything else would. There are guards/wings like Lowry and Butler that have way higher WS numbers than their efficiency and general raw numbers would suggest. Guys like Lavine and Ingram are lower.

[3ba11]

WS/48 seems to account for things like this better than anything else would. There are guards/wings like Lowry and Butler that have way higher WS numbers than their efficiency and general raw numbers would suggest. Guys like Lavine and Ingram are lower.


WS/48 can be used as a measure of chemistry - it measures how guys perform relative to other guys at their minute level - that's why Kerr had a 0.210 WS/48 in various years - the Bulls were using him so optimally that his production and efficiency killed other guys at his minute level

This is also how we know that Herro plays too many minutes (low WS/48)

[ShawkFactory]

WS/48 can be used as a measure of chemistry - it measures how guys perform relative to other guys at their minute level - that's why Kerr had a 0.210 WS/48 in various years - the Bulls were using him so optimally that his production and efficiency killed other guys at his minute level

This is also how we know that Herro plays too many minutes (low WS/48)

Right. You could argue that things like the gif in the OP that don't make it into any sort of stat sheet but contribute to winning can be accounted for by WS/48. To a degree.

[RRR3]

WS/48 seems to account for things like this better than anything else would. There are guards/wings like Lowry and Butler that have way higher WS numbers than their efficiency and general raw numbers would suggest. Guys like Lavine and Ingram are lower.
That’s still a box score stat I would say impact stats are much better. WS is pretty outdated.

[GOATKawhi_2]

He does a lot of little things right. But in the playoffs needs an alpha scorer and high usage player like kawhi.

He was with mvp derozan and got nicknamed the trash brother. We will see if he's any better with butler.

[3ba11]

Right. You could argue that things like the gif in the OP that don't make it into any sort of stat sheet but contribute to winning can be accounted for by WS/48. To a degree.


WS/48 won't cover screening because screening isn't in the boxscore - WS covers all the boxscore stats relative to others at their minute-level - so offensive role players or bench players with really high WS/48 are valuable and indicates good strategy or chemistry that is getting role players off (getting the most out of them given their minutes)

[ShawkFactory]

WS/48 won't cover screening because screening isn't in the boxscore - WS covers all the boxscore stats relative to others at their minute-level - so offensive role players or bench players with really high WS/48 are valuable and indicates good strategy or chemistry that is getting role players off (getting the most out of them given their minutes)

It's skewed for big men off the bench vs guards though.

[AlternativeAcc.]

It’s called a “Lebron Assist.”

It’s when you use your mind to elevate the whole team.

Honestly this.


Lebron doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for his cerebral approach to the game and consistent On The Floor Coaching. (OTFC)

People who compare someone like lets say... Jordan to LeBron.. don't realize that LeBrons mental abilities outweigh Jordan's by a lot... like it's not even close. And for that reason alone he's twice the player.

[3ba11]

Honestly this.


Lebron doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for his cerebral approach to the game and consistent On The Floor Coaching. (OTFC)

People who compare someone like to Jordan to LeBron don't realize that LeBrons mental abilities outweigh Jordan's by a lot... like it's not even close. And for that reason alone he's twice the player.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=enYXSzTyeM8&t=20m23s


Otoh, Lebron must coach teammates into the lesser roles of scapegoat and spot-up shooter that his frontcourt ball-dominance imposes.

Lebron starts in the frontcourt but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time) - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

[3ba11]

It's skewed for big men off the bench vs guards though.


True, but a team like Miami has a lot of role-playing wings with decent WS/48 - so they have good chemistry - I just don't think they can win a tough East with Butler and a bunch of Shane Battier's, plus Bam (a deluxe banger).. I don't think that's enough talent unless Butler dominates like 19' Kawhi or Jordan

[AlternativeAcc.]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=enYXSzTyeM8&t=20m23s


Otoh, Lebron must coach teammates into the lesser roles of scapegoat and spot-up shooter roles that his frontcourt ball-dominance imposes.

Lebron starts in the frontcourt but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time) - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

Jordan was an ape. He yelled at people. There was no intelligence to anything he did ... he just yelled like a caveman... and teammates hated him for it. Ask anybody in any field if being yelled at is the best way to be led... newsflash it's not

The best leaders don't need to consistently yell and bark orders. That's primitive stone age shit. Jordan was a moron on and off the court and that's why he's the literal worst GM in sports history.

[3ba11]

... he just yelled like a caveman... and teammates hated him for it. Ask anybody in any field if being yelled at is the best way to be led... newsflash it's not

The best leaders don't need to consistently yell and bark orders. That's primitive stone age shit. Jordan was a moron on and off the court and that's why he's the literal worst GM in sports history.





Regarding the yelling....

If Jordan was gifted a 22/5/5 all-defender, an all-star center, and a future COY before ever playing a playoff game in a conference that 1-star teams were winning most years, then he would've had high seeds every year like Lebron and wouldn't need to yell..

Jordan would've been coming out of a weak East with his high seeds most years.. But instead, Jordan had to carry 8 seeds of undecorated, bummy rosters and elevate them in a conference that required a super-team to win.

That requires yelling - bums require yelling so they become tough and aren't bums.. Otoh, Lebron always had high seeds of decorated players in a weak conference, or super-teams in a weak conference.







Jordan was an ape. He yelled at people.





Meltdown






There was no intelligence to anything he did





Lebron had far weaker team offenses despite far greater offensive help, which confirms that Jordan played a smarter and more sophisticated way.. Jordan had goat offenses including four #1 offenses with goat margins above league average - this is despite playing 4 on 5 with Rodman and Pippen's bad efficiency or low peak production capability.

Lebron's skillset of frontcourt ball-dominance results in a beginner format of 1 ball-dominator and 4 shooters that gets destroyed by ball movement and sophisticated, high assist teams in the Finals.

Otoh, Jordan's skillset of elite jumpshooting skill with on-ball and off-ball diversity allowed good ball movement and the juggernaut #1 offenses/brands - the same kinds of superior, sophisticated brands that destroy Lebron in the Finals - Jordan's teams were the same superior brand like the Spurs, Warriors or Mavs that destroy Lebron

[Kblaze8855]

There’s a reason he’s been starting for 14 years of being shit on by fans


https://i.ibb.co/ccv3443/IMG-8430.gif

[tpols]

That requires yelling - bums require yelling so they become tough and aren't bums.


:roll:

That is kinda true.