Was Kevin McHale a better offensive player than Tim Duncan?

[Im Still Ballin]

Title.



Duncan in the playoffs:

PER 36

- 19.9 PPG // 11.0 RPG // 2.9 APG // 0.6 SPG // 2.2 BPG // 2.4 TOPG
- 54.8% TS
- 50.2% eFG

PER 100 POSSESSIONS

- 29.7 PPG // 16.4 RPG // 4.4 APG // 1.0 SPG // 3.3 BPG // 3.6 TOPG
- 54.8% TS
- 50.2% eFG




McHale in the playoffs:

PER 36

- 20.0 PPG // 7.9 RPG // 1.7 APG // 0.4 SPG // 1.8 BPG // 2.1 TOPG
- 61.8% TS
- 56.3% eFG

PER 100 POSSESSIONS

- 27.6 PPG // 10.9 RPG // 2.4 APG // 0.6 SPG // 2.4 BPG // 2.8 TOPG
- 61.8% TS
- 56.3% eFG




Tim Duncan best consecutive playoff stretch

'03-'07 Playoffs (90 games played)

- 23.7 PPG // 12.6 RPG // 3.7 APG // 0.6 SPG // 2.6 BPG // 3.0 TOPG on 51.5% eFG, 68.3% FT [56.4% TS]
- 28.9% USAGE RATE




Kevin McHale best consecutive playoff stretch:

'85-'88 Playoffs (77 games played)

- 23.2 PPG // 9.0 RPG // 2.1 APG // 0.5 SPG // 1.9 BPG // 2.6 TOPG on 58.3% eFG, 80.1% FT [64.00% TS]
- 22.0% USAGE RATE


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[Im Still Ballin]

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[tontoz]

I would say yes. Duncan's jumper and foul shooting were weak but he was very good inside. McHale was good from anywhere....except long range jumpers. I cant remember even seeing him shoot outside 20 feet.

[Im Still Ballin]

I would say yes. Duncan's jumper and foul shooting were weak but he was very good inside. McHale was good from anywhere....except long range jumpers. I cant remember even seeing him shoot outside 20 feet.

He definitely showed promise shooting the three-pointer. But, yeah, I don't remember him taking super long mid-range jump shots from 20ft plus. He was really good on those 10-16ft closer in jump shots.

He's not Dirk, but he's probably in the same ballpark as KG from the mid-range.

[SouBeachTalents]

This is definitely Duncan for me. Duncan was an elite passing big man, McHale was never in the vicinity of that, and was even deemed to be a black hole on offense. Duncan's peak also took place in a significantly slower paced, defensive era. I have serious doubts if you put McHale on that '03 Spurs team he'd be capable of carrying the sole offensive burden on a team that had very little, to frankly almost no offensive talent like Duncan did.

[tontoz]

Duncan was not an elite passer. He was certainly better than McHale.

I think part of the difference is that McHale didn't get as many touches playing with Bird. McHale had a significantly lower usage rate than Duncan.

[Round Mound]

Individual Offense, Yes. Better and More Moves & Touch In The Pivot Than Anyone. Duncan was the better passer and rebounder though.

Defensively? Few PFs could guard SFs like McHale could. Sadly like Bird he wasn't very athletic (but extreamly coordinated) and him guarding SFs since Bird couldn't, definetly took its tole by 1987 when he had the major injury. After that he was very good but not a great as he once was.

[97 bulls]

Yall are starting to over-rate McHale. He's a great player no doubt. But as a Pippen fan, the knock on Pippen is that the couldn't win a championship by himself. Or lead a team to a championship. McHale also had 1 opportunity to lead the Celtics and he failed miserably. Why aren't his shortcomings bought up?

Comparing McHale to guys like Malone and Duncan is worse than comparing Pippen to James or Magic.

And yes. I know the question is about scoring. But I know where you guys are heading. You want to pit him on the same level as Duncan and Malone. Mchale was a black hole that played in an uptempo era.

[tontoz]

Yall are starting to over-rate McHale. He's a great player no doubt. But as a Pippen fan, the knock on Pippen is that the couldn't win a championship by himself. Or lead a team to a championship. McHale also had 1 opportunity to lead the Celtics and he failed miserably. Why aren't his shortcomings bought up?

Comparing McHale to guys like Malone and Duncan is worse than comparing Pippen to James or Magic.

And yes. I know the question is about scoring. But I know where you guys are heading. You want to pit him on the same level as Duncan and Malone. Mchale was a black hole that played in an uptempo era.

I've never seen anyone rate McHale on the same level as Duncan/ Malone as an overall player.

[FireDavidKahn]

It isn't always a good thing to compare raw stats across different eras to try and argue who was better. Different rules, play styles, etc...

It's like with Wilt. People fawn over his raw stats but there is zero chance he would average what he did in today's day and age.

Jahlil Okafor would have been considered a much better player 20+ years ago but for the most part is an afterthought/bust in today's day and age.

George Mikan? He was arguably the most dominant player of any era vs. his peers. In his fat he was legit both the best offensive and defensive player in the entire league and no one recognizes him as one if the GOAT (despite, again, being more dominant against his peers then anyone in history.... Including MJ)

The incredible uptick in 3 pointers? Who knows what would have happened in MJ's time if coaches tried the same strategy as today it might have achieved the same results. It's hard to argue against the results and wild things can happen which band the strategy look horrible, like Houston missing 27 straight 3's (or whatever the crazy amount was) but at the same time the opposite the true... When teams are on fire shooting the 3 they would win 80% of the time vs. teams from the past.

Is that due to higher skill? Maybe. Players are practicing shooting long range much earlier these days and it is a legit skill so you can't discount that... For the most part players are much better shooters. Players back then were much better with footwork because that was more emphasized.

Mid-range? This is kind of a myth that it went away. The reason why a lot of players are discouraged from shooting it and rather encouraged to either drive closer to the basket or shoot a 3 is because players aren't good enough shooting a mid-range shoot vs. driving to the rim or shooting a lower percentage on a 3 (a 34% three point shooter statistically results in more points then a 50% mid-range shooter). The elite players who can shoot good percentages on mid range shots are NOT discouraged from taking then.


Duncan had the whole package but strictly on the offensive end I personally would give the nod to McHale since his footwork/ability to score near the run is widely regarded as some of the best in history


TLDR: different eras and rules and how dominant a player was vs. his peers is a better way to try and compare players vs. raw stats

[L.Kizzle]

I've never seen anyone rate McHale on the same level as Duncan/ Malone as an overall player.

There was a thread 2 weeks ago about McHale having a better peak than Malone.

[Im Still Ballin]

There was a thread 2 weeks ago about McHale having a better peak than Malone.

I and others would take peak Kevin McHale over peak Karl Malone. He was a more efficient scorer, especially in the halfcourt. He was a walking double and triple team. He was also on a different level defensively.



Malone in the playoffs:

PER 36

- 21.7 PPG // 9.4 RPG // 2.8 APG // 1.2 SPG // 0.6 BPG // 2.5 TOPG
- 52.6% TS
- 46.3% eFG

PER 100 POSSESSIONS

- 32.6 PPG // 14.1 RPG // 4.2 APG // 1.8 SPG // 0.9 BPG // 3.8 TOPG
- 52.6% TS
- 46.3% eFG




McHale in the playoffs:

PER 36

- 20.0 PPG // 7.9 RPG // 1.7 APG // 0.4 SPG // 1.8 BPG // 2.1 TOPG
- 61.8% TS
- 56.3% eFG

PER 100 POSSESSIONS

- 27.6 PPG // 10.9 RPG // 2.4 APG // 0.6 SPG // 2.4 BPG // 2.8 TOPG
- 61.8% TS
- 56.3% eFG




Karl Malone best consecutive playoff run

'86-'94 Playoffs (74 games played)

- 27.3 PPG // 11.6 RPG // 2.4 APG // 1.4 SPG // 0.8 BPG // 2.9 TOPG on 47.7% eFG, 76.4% FT [54.72% TS]
- 29.0% USAGE RATE




Kevin McHale best consecutive playoff run

'85-'88 Playoffs (77 games played)

- 23.2 PPG // 9.0 RPG // 2.1 APG // 0.5 SPG // 1.9 BPG // 2.6 TOPG on 58.3% eFG, 80.1% FT [64.00% TS]
- 22.0% USAGE RATE

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Nah, their scoring was pretty comparable but Duncan was leaps and bounds better as a playmaker and better utilized his post game because of that. And McHale probably benefited a lot from Bird passing him the ball as well, and I'd argue the defensive environment he was in helped his scoring more than it did Duncan

[L.Kizzle]

I and others would take peak Kevin McHale over peak Karl Malone. He was a more efficient scorer, especially in the halfcourt. He was a walking double and triple team. He was also on a different level defensively.
Malones numbers are better any way you slice it.
Now you're trying to get McHale over Duncan. Look, I think he's a nice guy but let's be real he was on the bench behind Cedric Maxwell for the majority of his career.
Jeff Ruland gave him that work.

[Im Still Ballin]

Malones numbers are better any way you slice it.
Now you're trying to get McHale over Duncan. Look, I think he's a nice guy but let's be real he was on the bench behind Cedric Maxwell for the majority of his career.
Jeff Ruland gave him that work.

Offensively. Don't strawman me dude.

It's a good discussion. McHale is a more effective scorer, this is undeniable. The argument for Duncan being the better offensive player is of course the passing.

[tontoz]

McHale led the league in FG% in consecutive years while averaging 22+ ppg. That is pretty scary.

[L.Kizzle]

McHale led the league in FG% in consecutive years while averaging 22+ ppg. That is pretty scary.
Artist Gilmore was getting about 60% FG on 20 points or so.

[GOATKawhi_2]

Yeah duncans scoring kind of sucks. He can't shoot, never had a hook shot. He's the type that can't score on anybody unless he's taller then them. Besides when he's facing raef lefrentz or something.

Besides 02 and 03 he was easily worse then peak McHale.

Although McHale should of won more rings with bird, it's almost like he only won 1 because the other two he barely did anything. I would think Duncan would win more with bird

[Im Still Ballin]

Artist Gilmore was getting about 60% FG on 20 points or so.

Do you think Artis Gilmore was a good player?

[L.Kizzle]

Do you think Artis Gilmore was a good player?
He's a Hall of Famer, MVP.

[Im Still Ballin]

He's a Hall of Famer, MVP.

Impressive.

[Round Mound]

Do you think Artis Gilmore was a good player?

According to Robert Parish Artis was stronger than young Orlando Shaq. I don't think there was any player as heavy as Shaq in L.A to be able to move like that, handle the rock and dunk. Only Wilt was probably stronger than Shaq.

[Ass Dan]

Frankenstein and his up and unders are great, cant hate.

But Timmy D, 18 foot banker is the place to be.

Both unstoppable, non-coppable

But when stopped, who can hop?

That's Duncan, cuz he can still be punkin

From far away, pass and dribble still in play

McHale, forced to pass out of his fail

[houston]

no he is not

[dankok8]

People tend to overrate moderate volume high efficiency scorers these days and underrate high volume moderate efficiency scorers.

[tontoz]

People tend to overrate moderate volume high efficiency scorers these days and underrate high volume moderate efficiency scorers.


FYI McHale had the highest scoring season between the two and did it shooting 60%.

[Im Still Ballin]

FYI McHale had the highest scoring season between the two and did it shooting 60%.

Props.

:applause:

[Baller789]

McHale was a blackhole.

Duncan was a good passer out of the post.

[97 bulls]

FYI McHale had the highest scoring season between the two and did it shooting 60%.

They played in 2 totally different eras.

[tontoz]

They played in 2 totally different eras.

Neither guy shot 3s so the era argument doesn't carry as much weight. Duncan played on teams that took full advantage of the 3 pt shot so he had better spacing than McHale. Duncan retired in 2016 so he actually benefited from the modern era. The big rules change was back in 2005.

Duncan's jumper was weak which is why he tried to use the glass so often. That line drive shot wasn't effective without the glass. He shot 10% worse from the foul line. McHale was just a better shooter.

[SouBeachTalents]

Neither guy shot 3s so the era argument doesn't carry as much weight. Duncan played on teams that took full advantage of the 3 pt shot so he had better spacing than McHale. Duncan retired in 2016 so he actually benefited from the modern era. The big rules change was back in 2005.

Duncan's jumper was weak which is why he tried to use the glass so often. That line drive shot wasn't effective without the glass. He shot 10% worse from the foul line. McHale was just a better shooter.
Of course it does. The Celtics played in a MUCH faster paced era and at a much faster pace during McHale's peak years than the Spurs did during Duncan's.

[97 bulls]

Neither guy shot 3s so the era argument doesn't carry as much weight. Duncan played on teams that took full advantage of the 3 pt shot so he had better spacing than McHale. Duncan retired in 2016 so he actually benefited from the modern era. The big rules change was back in 2005.

Duncan's jumper was weak which is why he tried to use the glass so often. That line drive shot wasn't effective without the glass. He shot 10% worse from the foul line. McHale was just a better shooter.

The rule changes were for the perimeter players, not low post bigs. Put Duncan in the 80s where he wouldn't be seeing the same type of defensive intensity as he did in his era, and there would be more shot opportunities, he'd have much better stats.

[97 bulls]

Take their two best scoring seasons. The league averaged 81 FGAs in Duncan's best scoring season. The league averaged 89 FGAs in McHale. And it was easier to score in McHales era. I think it's fair to say that Duncan's best scoring season in the 80s would net him 3-4 more points and a higher efficiency rate. Maybe not 60%. But in the mid 50s for sure.

[L.Kizzle]

Duncan was the best player once he stepped foot in San Antonio.
Kevin McHale was at best the Celtics 3rd best player for about a 2 year period and came off the bench the majority of his career.

[tontoz]

The rule changes were for the perimeter players, not low post bigs. Put Duncan in the 80s where he wouldn't be seeing the same type of defensive intensity as he did in his era, and there would be more shot opportunities, he'd have much better stats.



Sorry but the facts don't back that up. McHale led the league in FG% in consecutive years at 60.4%. 10 years later the league leaders were at the same % or higher.

Teams shot more 3s in Duncan's era, and his teams especially took at lot of 3s which led to better spacing for him. They were consistently among the league leaders in 3 pt shooting.

[tontoz]

The rule changes were for the perimeter players, not low post bigs. Put Duncan in the 80s where he wouldn't be seeing the same type of defensive intensity as he did in his era, and there would be more shot opportunities, he'd have much better stats.

The rules changes weren't just for perimeter players. After the rules change if a post player faced up the defender couldn't put a hand on him. That is a huge advantage.

[97 bulls]

The rules changes weren't just for perimeter players. After the rules change if a post player faced up the defender couldn't put a hand on him. That is a huge advantage.

Neither McHale nor Duncan utilized the dribbles like a perimeter players. That's the point. Those rules virtually made low post play obsolete.

[tontoz]

Neither McHale nor Duncan utilized the dribbles like a perimeter players. That's the point. Those rules virtually made low post play obsolete.


No they didn't. Even now guys will post up with their backs to the basket. Then when they catch the ball they face up because the defender can't use their hands when they face up. The hand check rule didnt just apply to perimeter players it applied to everyone.

McHale didn't get the benefit of that but Duncan did.

[97 bulls]

Sorry but the facts don't back that up. McHale led the league in FG% in consecutive years at 60.4%. 10 years later the league leaders were at the same % or higher.

Teams shot more 3s in Duncan's era, and his teams especially took at lot of 3s which led to better spacing for him. They were consistently among the league leaders in 3 pt shooting.

I'm comparing the leagues as a whole. Not just the leaders. Not to mention 10 years from McHale best statistical season (87) would be Duncan's 1st year in the league lol. Duncan's best statistical season as far as scoring was in 02. The NBA average FG% on 02 was 45%. The average in 86 was 48%. Huge difference. Oh, and the league leader in FG% in 02 was Shaq at 57%.

[tontoz]

I'm comparing the leagues as a whole. Not just the leaders. Not to mention 10 years from McHale best statistical season (87) would be Duncan's 1st year in the league lol. Duncan's best statistical season as far as scoring was in 02. The NBA average FG% on 02 was 45%. The average in 86 was 48%. Huge difference. Oh, and the league leader in FG% in 02 was Shaq at 57%.

FG% is not a valid metric league wide because it doesn't account for 3s. We can use FG% to compare Duncan/McHale because neither guy shot 3s. Taking more 3s inevitably leads to a lower FG% league wide.

Back in 88 the Celtics took 8 3s total as a team per game.

[La Frescobaldi]

McHale better than Duncan at scoring with the ball in his hands.
Duncan better at basically every other aspect of basketball.

[tontoz]

McHale better than Duncan at scoring with the ball in his hands.
Duncan better at basically every other aspect of basketball.

Duncan was a better player no doubt. If i was starting a team from scratch there arent many guys i would take over Duncan. His skills as a player weren't his only value. He could fit with a wide variety of players. He was coachable, low profile and willing to take less money to keep talent around him.

[tpols]

Of course it does. The Celtics played in a MUCH faster paced era and at a much faster pace during McHale's peak years than the Spurs did during Duncan's.

Mchale used to go off in the playoffs against great teams. At his peak he scored more on significantly better efficiency. Eye test he had more moves. FT shooting does show he had way better shot control and fine motor skill. You want to compare that across eras?

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

I'm comparing the leagues as a whole. Not just the leaders. Not to mention 10 years from McHale best statistical season (87) would be Duncan's 1st year in the league lol. Duncan's best statistical season as far as scoring was in 02. The NBA average FG% on 02 was 45%. The average in 86 was 48%. Huge difference. Oh, and the league leader in FG% in 02 was Shaq at 57%.

Mchale actually has a 15+ game playoff run averaging 25.4PPG

Duncan has ZERO 15+ game playoff runs averaging 25PPG

Mchale also has his title run at 24.9PPG which matched Duncan's highest PPG title run ever.

Duncan's volume kind of sucked for a player that's supposed to be top 10. He never even shot more then 18FGA in a playoff run outside of 2002 and didn't even play 10 games.

[97 bulls]

Mchale actually has a 15+ game playoff run averaging 25.4PPG

Duncan has ZERO 15+ game playoff runs averaging 25PPG

Mchale also has his title run at 24.9PPG which matched Duncan's highest PPG title run ever.

Duncan's volume kind of sucked for a player that's supposed to be top 10. He never even shot more then 18FGA in a playoff run outside of 2002 and didn't even play 10 games.

Again, comparing stats across eras.

Duncan led his team to 5 Championships. He was doing something right.

[tpols]

Again, comparing stats across eras.

Duncan led his team to 5 Championships. He was doing something right.

Yea... he's one of the greatest defensive and intangible players of all time. Doesn't mean he had GOAT offense at the power forward position like a Mchale or Dirk or Barkley.

[ImKobe]

McHale was a better scorer but nowhere near Timmy as an all-around player.

[tontoz]

McHale was a better scorer but nowhere near Timmy as an all-around player.

Duncan was better but McHale was strong on offense and defense. McHale made 6 All NBA defense teams. Of course Duncan made 14. :oldlol:

[Im Still Ballin]

Duncan was better but McHale was strong on offense and defense. McHale made 6 All NBA defense teams. Of course Duncan made 14. :oldlol:

So good, in fact, that the coaches voted him the best defensive player in the league for the '86-'87 season.

[Axe]

Yea... he's one of the greatest defensive and intangible players of all time. Doesn't mean he had GOAT offense at the power forward position like a Mchale or Dirk or Barkley.
So outcome in basketball is only dictated by teams being exceptional on one specific end huh? :yaohappy:

[L.Kizzle]

Duncan had more 20+ point seasons than McHale. Dude came into the league a 20+ scorer.

[Im Still Ballin]

Duncan had more 20+ point seasons than McHale. Dude came into the league a 20+ scorer.

McHale played on teams with Cedric Maxwell, Tiny Archibald, Larry Bird, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, and Bill Walton. These were incredibly stacked teams, so naturally playing time and usage rate was lower across the board.

This shouldn't be used against Kevin to diminish his quality. Naturally, when you're on stacked teams with lots of talent, sacrifices are made -- for the good of the team.

[L.Kizzle]

McHale played on teams with Cedric Maxwell, Tiny Archibald, Larry Bird, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, and Bill Walton. These were incredibly stacked teams, so naturally playing time and usage rate was lower across the board.

This shouldn't be used against Kevin to diminish his quality. Naturally, when you're on stacked teams with lots of talent, sacrifices are made -- for the good of the team.
Duncan played with Robinson, Parker, Manu and Kawhi. Same difference.

[rmt]

McHale played on teams with Cedric Maxwell, Tiny Archibald, Larry Bird, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, and Bill Walton. These were incredibly stacked teams, so naturally playing time and usage rate was lower across the board.

This shouldn't be used against Kevin to diminish his quality. Naturally, when you're on stacked teams with lots of talent, sacrifices are made -- for the good of the team.

One could counter that all of those incredibly stacked team mates drew lots of defensive attention (away from McHale).

[rmt]

Duncan played with Robinson, Parker, Manu and Kawhi. Same difference.

Also, not quite with their primes lined up (as McHale's with his "incredibly stacked" team mates).

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin McHale was a system player. Cedric Maxwell also led the league in FG% a few when he was starting over McHale.
Basically whoever was a forward was gonna get about 18/8.

[Im Still Ballin]

One could counter that all of those incredibly stacked team mates drew lots of defensive attention (away from McHale).

Which is why you have to actually watch the games. Kevin McHale was one of the most doubled/tripled players in the league. Guys were getting open shots because of him, not the other way around. Even when the double/triple came, it was often too late because he attacked so quickly off of the catch.

[La Frescobaldi]

One could counter that all of those incredibly stacked team mates drew lots of defensive attention (away from McHale).

Dude never had trouble scoring in heavy traffic.

He also was clutch which will always put him near the very top of all time lists and why guys like karl malone will always be near the very bottom of all time lists.

[La Frescobaldi]

Kevin McHale was a system player. Cedric Maxwell also led the league in FG% a few when he was starting over McHale.
Basically whoever was a forward was gonna get about 18/8.

What garbage that is. People said that about duncan too which was just more garbage.
Actual example of system player is karl malone who famously failed over and over while Duncan and McHale innovated and created and refused to lose and will always be sports heroes.

[97 bulls]

FG% is not a valid metric league wide because it doesn't account for 3s. We can use FG% to compare Duncan/McHale because neither guy shot 3s. Taking more 3s inevitably leads to a lower FG% league wide.

Back in 88 the Celtics took 8 3s total as a team per game.

Ok, even If we go strictly by 2pt percentage. In 87, the leage shot 49% to 46% in 02. Again, comparing stats across eras need to stop. Duncan and McHale played I'm two different time periods.

[tontoz]

Ok, even If we go strictly by 2pt percentage. In 87, the leage shot 49% to 46% in 02. Again, comparing stats across eras need to stop. Duncan and McHale played I'm two different time periods.


And then it went back up after the rules change, 48% in 07 and 08. Duncan didn't retire until 2016.

For their careers McHale shot 5% better. You can't explain that away with the era argument.