Scoring skillet aside, who are the best of all time at the rest of basketball?

[AussieSteve]

Scoring skillet aside, who are the best of all time at the rest of basketball?

So defense, rebounding, facilitating offensive for others etc. Who is/was the best package of all facets of the game excl scoring.

I'll throw in a couple that come to mind for me over the last 30 years or so (in no order)

Pippen
Garnett
Kidd
Lebron

Who else?

[Gohan]

Scoring skillet aside, who are the best of all time at the rest of basketball?

So defense, rebounding, facilitating offensive for others etc. Who is/was the best package of all facets of the game excl scoring.

I'll throw in a couple that come to mind for me over the last 30 years or so (in no order)

Pippen
Garnett
Kidd
Lebron

Who else?
If scoring doesnt matter its kidd then lebron. Its amazing cuz lebron is a great scorer too scary good

[TheGoatest]

"The Great Scott Pippen is the only player who can score 5 points and still dominate the game" - Reggie Miller
And seeing how The Great Scott Pippen averaged 20 points, that means that he was simultaneously 4 x dominant. :eek:

[LAL]

LOL

[Baller789]

"The Great Scott Pippen is the only player who can score 5 points and still dominate the game" - Reggie Miller
And seeing how The Great Scott Pippen averaged 20 points, that means that he was simultaneously 4 x dominant. :eek:

Who is this great Scott Pippen?

[Full Court]

Bill Russell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Anyone else.

[SouBeachTalents]

Of the guys not mentioned yet, definitely Dray.

Another one I feel deserves mention is Horford, he always had a very well rounded game.

[Full Court]

Of the guys not mentioned yet, definitely Dray.

Another one I feel deserves mention is Horford, he always had a very well rounded game.

For current players, I'll second Dray.

[Phoenix]

Grant Hill warrants a mention, dude was dropping 10 rebounds and 7 assists on top of solid defense at his apex.

[bizil]

So in other words, who has the best floor game. Best Blend of passing, defense, and rebounding their position as a package. By position I would say:

PG- Kidd
SG- MJ (West, Kobe, and Wade had great blend too)
SF- Bron (Pip, Hondo, G Hill deserve a mention)
PF- KG (Draymond and Giannis deserve a mention)
C- Russell

HUGE REASON why MJ is the GOAT is because he LEGIT was the best scorer on the planet AND had the best floor game at the same time. BEFORE Pip came of age, MJ was getting 32-8-8 as well as providing DPOY caliber defense. Bulls dynasty was SICK because MJ and Pip had the top two floor games in the league at the time. AND for their position, the best of ALL TIME! I think Bron passed Pip's floor game eventually. Due to to his superior triple double ability. COMBINED with his evolution as a great defender. But as a defender, I would still give Pip an edge on Bron.

[SouBeachTalents]

A few more to add

Giannis
Walton
Hondo
Mason
Bam
Noah

[ImKobe]

Scoring skillet aside, who are the best of all time at the rest of basketball?

So defense, rebounding, facilitating offensive for others etc. Who is/was the best package of all facets of the game excl scoring.

I'll throw in a couple that come to mind for me over the last 30 years or so (in no order)

Pippen
Garnett
Kidd
Lebron

Who else?

Bran does not belong on that list lmao. He's not an ATG point guard on the level that players like Kidd and CP3 and he was only considered a great defender at his athletic peak in Miami. Not great enough of a passer, he was never a true point guard. Chris Paul and John Stockton should be very high on that list. Magic is an obvious pick as well. Gary Payton is another one.

[bizil]

Bran does not belong on that list lmao. He's not an ATG point guard on the level that players like Kidd and CP3 and he was only considered a great defender at his athletic peak in Miami. Not great enough of a passer, he was never a true point guard. Chris Paul and John Stockton should be very high on that list. Magic is an obvious pick as well. Gary Payton is another one.

??? Among SF's, Bron along with Bird is the best passer. Among SF's, he's the KING of triple doubles. And Bron AT HIS PEAK was a great defender. Among SF's, Bron has the best floor game ever! His triple double shit COMBINED with is great defense gives him the edge on Pip and Hondo. So Bron FOR SURE should be listed.

Magic was NEVER a great defender. Shouldnt be on the list at all. GP belongs. CP3 belongs. Because him getting 5 RPG multiple seasons for a 6'0 guard is an elite clip. Stock POSSIBLY. But since rebounding is a part of floor game I'm not sure. Because Stock wasn't like a CP3 at that size on the boards. BUT Stock was SO ELITE in terms of passing and defense that i think his rebounding could be forgiven. Since he was a 6'1 PG and NOT really looked to for rebounding.

[HoopsNY]

Bran does not belong on that list lmao. He's not an ATG point guard on the level that players like Kidd and CP3 and he was only considered a great defender at his athletic peak in Miami. Not great enough of a passer, he was never a true point guard. Chris Paul and John Stockton should be very high on that list. Magic is an obvious pick as well. Gary Payton is another one.

I respectfully disagree. LeBron deserves to be on that list. And it's funny you mention Magic when Magic was never considered a great defensive player at any point of his career. LeBron was a great defensive player for at least 5 seasons.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKngH_hugLY

:lol

[1987_Lakers]

PG - Kidd / Magic
SF - LeBron / Pippen
PF - Draymond / Garnett
C - Walton / Russell

It's hard to come up with some SGs, but I'd say West, MJ, & Ginobili deserve some discussion.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bran does not belong on that list lmao. He's not an ATG point guard on the level that players like Kidd and CP3 and he was only considered a great defender at his athletic peak in Miami. Not great enough of a passer, he was never a true point guard. Chris Paul and John Stockton should be very high on that list. Magic is an obvious pick as well. Gary Payton is another one.
Someone needs to add this to the dumbest posts thread :lol Then to add insult to injury he says Magic when he was never considered an elite defender.

[Shogon]

Someone needs to add this to the dumbest posts thread :lol Then to add insult to injury he says Magic when he was never considered an elite defender.

Bruh the dumbest posts thread should just be this link...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-NBA-Forum

[ImKobe]

I respectfully disagree. LeBron deserves to be on that list. And it's funny you mention Magic when Magic was never considered a great defensive player at any point of his career. LeBron was a great defensive player for at least 5 seasons.

Magic was a MUCH better playmaker. He sacrificed his scoring for the better of his team and he was a good defensive player but never a great one. If you think Bran is anywhere close to Magic or CP3 as a point guard you're fooling yourself.

[ImKobe]

Someone needs to add this to the dumbest posts thread :lol Then to add insult to injury he says Magic when he was never considered an elite defender.

Never said that Magic was an elite defender, but Magic is arguably the GOAT when it comes to passing and Bran is not in that tier and has never been seen as an ATG defender. He had some years where he peaked pretty high but he wasn't Scottie or MJ level on that end of the court.

[1987_Lakers]

Magic was a MUCH better playmaker. He sacrificed his scoring for the better of his team and he was a good defensive player but never a great one. If you think Bran is anywhere close to Magic or CP3 as a point guard you're fooling yourself.

He was OK on defense in his early years, which I don't mind listing him in this thread because he could take over games without much scoring. But peak Magic when he upped his scoring was an atrocious defender.

LeBron is so much better on the defensive end that it isn't even funny, and along with Bird is the greatest passing SF ever, for you to get all mad for people listing him just shows how pathetic you are.

[ImKobe]

??? Among SF's, Bron along with Bird is the best passer. Among SF's, he's the KING of triple doubles. And Bron AT HIS PEAK was a great defender. Among SF's, Bron has the best floor game ever! His triple double shit COMBINED with is great defense gives him the edge on Pip and Hondo. So Bron FOR SURE should be listed.

Magic was NEVER a great defender. Shouldnt be on the list at all. GP belongs. CP3 belongs. Because him getting 5 RPG multiple seasons for a 6'0 guard is an elite clip. Stock POSSIBLY. But since rebounding is a part of floor game I'm not sure. Because Stock wasn't like a CP3 at that size on the boards. BUT Stock was SO ELITE in terms of passing and defense that i think his rebounding could be forgiven. Since he was a 6'1 PG and NOT really looked to for rebounding.

Are we really doing the triple-double argument here? Westbrook is the GOAT of triple-doubles. Bran can do a lot of things but he's not on Magic's level as a playmaker. Scoring is actually the strongest part of Bran's game while it was secondary for Magic in most of his games.


He was OK on defense in his early years, which I don't mind listing him in this thread because he could take over games without much scoring. But peak Magic when he upped his scoring was an atrocious defender.

LeBron is so much better on the defensive end that it isn't even funny, and along with Bird is the greatest passing SF ever, for you to get all mad for people listing him just shows how pathetic you are.

Not really. Bran for the most part of his career was not a great defensive player. He peaked on D in Miami when he had other elite defenders around him but he was not a great defensive player his first stint in Cleveland and he started coasting on D in the mid 2010s.

Do you understand that Magic had a 4-year stretch in the POs, where he averaged 13.9 ast to 3.5 TOs while scoring 20 a game? He had a title run ('85) when he put up 11+ assists in every single Playoff game and averaged 15.2. He had double-digit assists for 28 straight Playoff games at one point. Lebron is not on that level as a playmaker, which is why Magic gets the nod for me.

[1987_Lakers]

Wasn't a great defender in his first stint with the Cavs? He finished 2nd in DPOY voting in 2009.

The amount of revisionist history you try to pull off is shameful.

It's almost like you are saying "LeBron wasn't a great defender his whole career so it doesn't count".

[ImKobe]

Games with 10+ assists

Stockton - 863
Kidd - 569
CP3 - 547
Magic - 520
Westbrook - 379
Rondo - 335
Bran - 296
Harden - 238

But we're going to act as if Bran was this ATG point guard when he's always been a score-first player who happened to dominate the ball a lot.

[ImKobe]

Wasn't a great defender in his first stint with the Cavs? He finished 2nd in DPOY voting in 2009.

The amount of revisionist history you try to pull off is shameful.

It's almost like you are saying "LeBron wasn't a great defender his whole career so it doesn't count".

2nd in DPOY voting when Dwight got 105 out of 118 1st place votes? Bran got 4 DPOY votes that year, Kobe got 2. Even CP3 got a 1st place vote in. Dwight was basically the unanimous DPOY for 3 straight years.

[SouBeachTalents]

Games with 10+ assists

Stockton - 863
Kidd - 569
CP3 - 547
Magic - 520
Westbrook - 379
Rondo - 335
Bran - 296
Harden - 238

But we're going to act as if Bran was this ATG point guard when he's always been a score-first player who happened to dominate the ball a lot.
Why are you so fixated on this one aspect :lol The thread is about all around great players, not greatest point guards. LeBron is as good a passer as any non point ever, and when you factor in the other attributes of his game, he 100% belongs on this list. You'd straight up need to have an agenda to try to argue LeBron isn't one of the greatest all around players ever.

[1987_Lakers]

2nd in DPOY voting when Dwight got 105 out of 118 1st place votes? Bran got 4 DPOY votes that year, Kobe got 2. Even CP3 got a 1st place vote in. Dwight was basically the unanimous DPOY for 3 straight years.

So in order for LeBron to be considered a great defender, he must win DPOY. Got it :lol

[ImKobe]

Why are you so fixated on this one aspect :lol The thread is about all around great players, not greatest point guards. LeBron is as good a passer as any non point ever, and when you factor in the other attributes of his game, he 100% belongs on this list. You'd straight up need to have an agenda to try to argue LeBron isn't one of the greatest all around players ever.

I'm saying that most of his game is built around his scoring ability, whereas there are plenty of players who's best attribute wasn't their scoring and they are ATG regardless, so there's a proven track record and not just a dumb hypothetical. You'd immediately go through all the GOAT defenders and playmakers and not Lebron, who had a relatively short run as a great defensive player (12-14) and who often blames his teammates despite being the one to mess up on D. He is a great all-around player, but that's mainly because of his scoring ability, which opens up those wide open shooters that most modern NBA players can make that pass to.

[ImKobe]

So in order for LeBron to be considered a great defender, he must win DPOY. Got it :lol

You made the DPOY argument, like he was this great runner-up who damn near won it that year. There are plenty of ATG players who actually won the award that we'd go to first before we talked about Bran's defense being the strong point in the context of this thread. Bran's a solid defender in his prime & one of the better help defenders in league history for a solid 5-year stretch so I'm not trying to say that he wasn't good at one point.

[1987_Lakers]

You made the DPOY argument, like he was this great runner-up who damn near won it that year. There are plenty of ATG players who actually won the award that we'd go to first before we talked about Bran's defense being the strong point in the context of this thread. Bran's a solid defender in his prime & one of the better help defenders in league history for a solid 5-year stretch so I'm not trying to say that he wasn't good at one point.

And that 5 year stretch includes his first stint with the Cavs, and you just a few minutes ago just said he wasn't a great defender in that time. Which is it?

[ImKobe]

And that 5 year stretch includes his first stint with the Cavs, and you just a few minutes ago just said he wasn't a great defender in that time. Which is it?

He wasn't elite from 09-11. '12 and '13 seasons are in a different category, he had great defenders around him that allowed him to just roam on D and help on anyone. Spo's defensive genius and the athletic ability & the versatility with him, Bosh & Wade just made it a perfect combination.

[1987_Lakers]

He wasn't elite from 09-11. '12 and '13 seasons are in a different category, he had great defenders around him that allowed him to just roam on D and help on anyone. Spo's defensive genius and the athletic ability & the versatility with him, Bosh & Wade just made it a perfect combination.

You just right now....


You made the DPOY argument, like he was this great runner-up who damn near won it that year. There are plenty of ATG players who actually won the award that we'd go to first before we talked about Bran's defense being the strong point in the context of this thread. Bran's a solid defender in his prime & one of the better help defenders in league history for a solid 5-year stretch so I'm not trying to say that he wasn't good at one point.

:oldlol:

[LeCola]

Bill Russell sounds like GOAT for that.

Draymond Green
Ben Simmons
CP3
Jokic
Westbrook

From active players.

[ImKobe]

You just right now....



:oldlol:

One of the best help defenders but not elite (top 5) overall. I guess it depends what elite means in your book, because he wasn't better than Howard, KG, TD, Artest, Iggy, Allen, Gasol, Battier, Marion, Chandler, AK47 and you could name stars like Kidd, Wade, Kobe and CP3 who were in that same ballpark on D in the late 2000s. I'm missing names here but those instantly come to mind.

[bizil]

For me, IF you got the elite defense, rebounding, and passing (overall floor game) covered THOSE are the guys who should be on the list. Guys like Magic, Westbrook, Jokic, etc. don't belong on the list. Ben Simmons is a GREAT SHOUT OUT. If he's still considered a PG, he's has the best floor game in the league. PLUS his positional versatility defensively is the best EVER for a PG. Among centers, Marc Gasol is DAMN CLOSE for this type of list in my opinion. BUT he was never really a great rebounder for a center.

[John8204]

Bill Russell, John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Nate Thurmond, Scottie Pippen, Sidney Moncrief, Steve Nash, Bill Walton, Kevin Garnett, Moses Malone

[1987_Lakers]

One of the best help defenders but not elite (top 5) overall. I guess it depends what elite means in your book, because he wasn't better than Howard, KG, TD, Artest, Iggy, Allen, Gasol, Battier, Marion, Chandler, AK47 and you could name stars like Kidd, Wade, Kobe and CP3 who were in that same ballpark on D in the late 2000s. I'm missing names here but those instantly come to mind.

You said "one of the best help defenders ever in that stretch". And it's not like LeBron in that time was a horrific man defender either. So by your definition he was elite.

Look at you back peddling now. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

You said "one of the best help defenders ever in that stretch". And it's not like LeBron in that time was a horrific man defender either. So by your definition he was elite.

Look at you back peddling now. :oldlol:

Being a great help defender does not mean he could QB a defense like KG or Draymond. He wasn't an elite man defender. He had his moments but he wasn't shutting down players like Tony Allen or AK47.

[1987_Lakers]

Being a great help defender does not mean he could QB a defense like KG or Draymond. He wasn't an elite man defender. He had his moments but he wasn't shutting down players like Tony Allen or AK47.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-26-2016/vNCJOg.gif

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Kawhi I would say would be the best at these things but he also has the best scoring skill set. So overall GOAT peak.

Defense - anchored numerous top 5 defense teams, all time great defense reg season team in 2016, playoff defense team in 2019, guarded LeBron and butler and giannis

Rebounding - the long arms, the big shoulders and big hands, the knack for the ball. Led playoffs in offensive rebounds 2019 and led raptors in total rebounds. 4 offensive rebounds a game in closeout games against Giannis and Embiid

facilitating offensive - kawhi is like dirk in how he's a great passer despite not racking up a heavy assists count. 123 offensive rating for clippers offense last season and that's without having a pure point guard on his team. 118 offense for raptors during title run despite no second option scorer. That doesn't happen unless you're an all-time great facilitator.

[HoopsNY]

Magic was a MUCH better playmaker. He sacrificed his scoring for the better of his team and he was a good defensive player but never a great one. If you think Bran is anywhere close to Magic or CP3 as a point guard you're fooling yourself.

No one is comparing Magic's playmaking to LeBron's. But Magic was a great playmaker and not a great defender while LeBron was great at both.


Never said that Magic was an elite defender, but Magic is arguably the GOAT when it comes to passing and Bran is not in that tier and has never been seen as an ATG defender. He had some years where he peaked pretty high but he wasn't Scottie or MJ level on that end of the court.

The idea here isn't to compare elite to elite. The idea here is to look at who fulfills the requirements of the OP. LeBron absolutely does. He has the rebounding, he has the passing/playmaking, and he has the defense.


2nd in DPOY voting when Dwight got 105 out of 118 1st place votes? Bran got 4 DPOY votes that year, Kobe got 2. Even CP3 got a 1st place vote in. Dwight was basically the unanimous DPOY for 3 straight years.

Now I've heard it all. LeBron was All-Defensive 1st Team in 2009 and 2010. But he wasn't a great defensive player in his first stint in Cleveland?


You made the DPOY argument, like he was this great runner-up who damn near won it that year. There are plenty of ATG players who actually won the award that we'd go to first before we talked about Bran's defense being the strong point in the context of this thread. Bran's a solid defender in his prime & one of the better help defenders in league history for a solid 5-year stretch so I'm not trying to say that he wasn't good at one point.

So what are you saying? I think you're letting your hatred for LeBron cloud your judgement here.

[8Ball]

Bill Russell sounds like GOAT for that.

Draymond Green
Ben Simmons
CP3
Jokic
Westbrook

From active players.

???

Bill Russell has mediocre passing.

I would go with Pippen or LeBron.

[HoopsNY]

He wasn't elite from 09-11. '12 and '13 seasons are in a different category, he had great defenders around him that allowed him to just roam on D and help on anyone. Spo's defensive genius and the athletic ability & the versatility with him, Bosh & Wade just made it a perfect combination.

All-Defensive Finishes

2008-09: All-Defensive 1st Team
2009-10: All-Defensive 1st Team
2010-11: All-Defensive 1st Team

DPOY Finishes

2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 9th

But LeBron' wasn't elite from 2009-11? Bro you're a good poster, but you're really letting your hatred for LeBron blind your thinking.

[Charlie Sheen]

Hoops is on the money. The only thing Lebron maybe couldn't do as well as Magic is defend in the post one on one. If you want to give the edge to Magic, I'm cool with that. It's not some huge advantage though. Every other measure you want to use for defense though... Lebron is leagues above Magic. On the Perimeter. Covering the interior space as a help defender. Playing the passing lanes. At them rim.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt for me.


He is the only player ever to lead the NBA in rebounds, assists and shot-blocking.

Also, it's important to note that Wilt has the NBA's only Quintuple-Double game in its entire 75-year history.

As on March 18, 1968, Wilt Chamberlain put up a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks, and 11 steals.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wilt for me.


He is the only player ever to lead the NBA in rebounds, assists and shot-blocking.

Also, it's important to note that Wilt has the NBA's only Quintuple-Double game in its entire 75-year history.

As on March 18, 1968, Wilt Chamberlain put up a stat line of 53 points, 32 rebounds, 14 assists, 24 blocks, and 11 steals.
Not to derail the thread, but games like this only make Wilt's playoff performances at that stage of his career all the more perplexing. He can put up 50 point quintuple-doubles, but fail to come through in the playoffs during critical games and moments on numerous occasions.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt was a

11× NBA rebounding champion (1960–1963, 1966–1969, 1971–1973)

NBA assist leader (1968)

NBA leader in MPG 9 times.




And he also lead the NBA in BPG countless times throughout his career.


Therefore If you take away Wilt's scoring.

He can still provide you Goat level rebounding and defence plus elite playmaking.

[coastalmarker99]

Not to derail the thread, but games like this only make Wilt's playoff performances at that stage of his career all the more perplexing. He can put up 50 point quintuple-doubles, but fail to come through in the playoffs during critical games and moments on numerous occasions.

Wilt was playing with very serious injuries in the 1968 and 1970 playoffs so that explains some of it.


I have no excuse for 1969 through as that is the biggest black mark on Wilt's career much as 2011 is for Lebron.

[ImKobe]

All-Defensive Finishes

2008-09: All-Defensive 1st Team
2009-10: All-Defensive 1st Team
2010-11: All-Defensive 1st Team

DPOY Finishes

2009: 2nd
2010: 4th
2011: 9th

But LeBron' wasn't elite from 2009-11? Bro you're a good poster, but you're really letting your hatred for LeBron blind your thinking.

OK, and you guys say that Kobe's All-Defensive 1st teams don't count but now this is used for Bran's case as an elite defender.. :kobe:

I already pointed out how lopsided the DPOY voting was from 09-11, maybe read through the posts before replying, thx.


Wilt was a

11× NBA rebounding champion (1960–1963, 1966–1969, 1971–1973)

NBA assist leader (1968)

NBA leader in MPG 9 times.




And he also lead the NBA in BPG countless times throughout his career.


Therefore If you take away Wilt's scoring.

He can still provide you Goat level rebounding and defence plus elite playmaking.

Wilt is a solid argument. Too bad we don't have all the data from that era because the numbers would be even more ridiculous.

[coastalmarker99]

OK, and you guys say that Kobe's All-Defensive 1st teams don't count but now this is used for Bran's case as an elite defender.. :kobe:

I already pointed out how lopsided the DPOY voting was from 09-11, maybe read through the posts before replying, thx.



Wilt is a solid argument. Too bad we don't have all the data from that era because the numbers would be even more ridiculous.

We do know Wilt in his last season at age 36 averaged 13.1 PPG/18.6 RPG/4.5 APG/5.56 BPG on 72.7% FG in the regular season.


And then in the playoffs, we know that he averaged 10.4 PTS 22.5 REBS 3.5 ASTS 6.9 BLKS on a FG% of 55.2.


Hell in Wilt's last ever game he put up 23pts (9-16fg) 21reb 3a 2blk 3stl which just shows you how dominant Wilt was as a defensive player.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpTNSLJqaAE

[coastalmarker99]

OK, and you guys say that Kobe's All-Defensive 1st teams don't count but now this is used for Bran's case as an elite defender.. :kobe:

I already pointed out how lopsided the DPOY voting was from 09-11, maybe read through the posts before replying, thx.



Wilt is a solid argument. Too bad we don't have all the data from that era because the numbers would be even more ridiculous.

Here are Wilt's full stats from some of his playoff runs during the last seven years of his career.

1967 PLAYOFFS 21.7 PTS 29.1 REBS 9.0 ASTS 9.2 BLKS FG% 57.9

1968 PLAYOFFS 23.7 PTS 24.7 REBS 6.5 ASTS 9.7 BLKS FG% 53.4

1969 PLAYOFFS 13.9 PTS 24.7 REBS 2.6 ASTS 8.5 BLKS FG% 54.5

1971 PLAYOFFS 18.3 PTS 20.2 REBS 4.4 ASTS 6.0 BLKS FG% 45.5

1973 PLAYOFFS 10.4 PTS 22.5 REBS 3.5 ASTS 6.9 BLKS FG% 55.2


It is scary to think how many quadruple-doubles he must have had when he's nearly averaging 10 assists and 10 blocks (and always having 10+ points and boards).

Hell, when the Lakers were Down 3-1 against the Suns in 1970.


an injured Wilt who had already missed 70 games that season due to a knee injury put together a ridiculous stretch from Game 5 to 7 to led his team to three straight wins to take the series.


Game 5: 36 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists, 10 blocks

Game 6: 12 points, 26 rebounds, 11 assists, 11 blocks

Game 7: 30 points, 17 rebounds, 6 assists, 11 blocks

Sweet mother of god.

That's three consecutive triple doubles including a quadruple double.

Just straight dominance on both ends of the floor...


Wilt's numbers to me always are just comical to look at.

[ImKobe]

We do know Wilt in his last season at age 36 averaged 13.1 PPG/18.6 RPG/4.5 APG/5.56 BPG on 72.7% FG in the regular season.


And then in the playoffs we know that he averaged 10.4 PTS 22.5 REBS 3.5 ASTS 6.9 BLKS on a FG% of 55.2.

He played some of his best defense ever on Kareem in '72. Kareem had 37 points but on 37 shots (16/37 FG) in Game 6 while Wilt had 20/24 on 8/12 FG. West struggled in that game as well. Kareem also had 28 pts on 13/33 FG the game before. It's incredible that a 35 y.o Wilt sonned the defending champs in such a fashion and then went on to win a Finals MVP, despite not being anywhere close to his prime self.

[coastalmarker99]

He played some of his best defense ever on Kareem in '72. Kareem had 37 points but on 37 shots (16/37 FG) in Game 6 while Wilt had 20/24 on 8/12 FG. West struggled in that game as well. It's incredible that a 35 y.o Wilt sonned the defending champs in such a fashion and then went on to win a Finals MVP, despite not being anywhere close to his prime self.

This is footage of game 6 of the 1972 WCF in which Wilt had 9 blocks and just owned a prime Kareem in the fourth quarter to send the Lakers to the finals.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz4d7R5-Esc



Also in game 5 of that same series Wilt recorded 10 blocks in that game so it shows you just how much of a monster he was despite not being anywhere close to his prime self.

[HoopsNY]

OK, and you guys say that Kobe's All-Defensive 1st teams don't count but now this is used for Bran's case as an elite defender.. :kobe:

I already pointed out how lopsided the DPOY voting was from 09-11, maybe read through the posts before replying, thx.



Wilt is a solid argument. Too bad we don't have all the data from that era because the numbers would be even more ridiculous.

I never said anything about Kobe, what are you talking about? You must have me mixed up with someone else. Furthermore, your comments about the DPOY doesn't remove the fact that he was a great defensive player from 2009-11.

I never said that LeBron was the best defensive player in those years, but he was certainly amongst the best in the league. His DPOY rankings and All-Defensive 1st Team selections back to back to back years certainly proves it.

If that doesn't make him 'great', 'elite', or whatever else you wanna label it as, then I'm not sure what actually constitutes greatness defensively anymore.

[3ba11]

Stockton's 15 apg and goat playmaking would've helped Jordan much more than Pippen's 5 apg and mid-tier playmaking.

Stockton was easily the best if we take scoring away

Any 20/10 guy will be better than a 20/5 guy like Pippen if we take the 20 away (the scoring)... :hammerhead:

Carry on the fraud tho . Pippen is the most overrated player ever because his garbage stats are inflated the most by winning spotlight (the highest combination of low stats and high ring count)

[Phoenix]

Stockton's 15 apg and goat playmaking would've helped Jordan much more than Pippen's 5 apg and mid-tier playmaking.

Stockton was easily the best if we take scoring away

Any 20/10 guy will be better than a 20/5 guy like Pippen if we take the 20 away (the scoring)... :hammerhead:

Carry on the fraud tho . Pippen is the most overrated player ever because his garbage stats are inflated the most by winning spotlight (the highest combination of low stats and high ring count)

Per the OP:

"So defense, rebounding, facilitating offensive for others etc. Who is/was the best package of all facets of the game excl scoring."

The thread CLEARLY asks other than scoring, which other players best combine the outlined facets of the game, and you're so caught up in your agenda that you rant about a guy with a 2.7rpg average. Someone like Jason Kidd ticks those boxes in defense, rebounding, and facilitating. John Stockton does not, because he was not a rebounder so he's automatically disqualified. Also, Stocktons assist numbers in a pick and roll offense where he's on the ball every possession is different than playing in an equal opportunity offense like the Triangle which by design deflates individual assists. There's no way Stockton averages 15 assists in the triangle, or probably even 10. You have so much to say and so much of it being flat wrong.



Carry on.

[HoopsNY]

Anyone mention Hondo? Didn't see him play, but in terms of those characteristics, he'd have to be up there.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeFraud's Hall of Fame Teammates
AD
Carmelo
Wade
Rondo
Shaq
Love
Bosh
Dwight
Ray
Kyrie
Westbrook
Ben
Rose

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

LeFraud's Opponents
Dirk/Kawhi/Steph/KD/Giannis all won championships on his watch.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

LeFraud's Glaring Weaknesses
Had teammates cover up his defeciencies on both sides of the court whether it be shooting the ball,closing in 4th quarters and elite defense.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

LeFraud Missing the Playoffs
He has missed the playoffs 3 times in his career and is on the verge of missing it again for the 4th time despite all of these all-star level talent on his team.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jack of all trades Master of NONE
He can score,pass,rebound,play some defense but he's never been the best in any of those categories.



Conclusion : LeFraud is not a top 10 all-time player

[3ba11]

Per the OP:

"So defense, rebounding, facilitating offensive for others etc. Who is/was the best package of all facets of the game excl scoring."

The thread CLEARLY asks other than scoring, which other players best combine the outlined facets of the game, and you're so caught up in your agenda that you rant about a guy with a 2.7rpg average. Someone like Jason Kidd ticks those boxes in defense, rebounding, and facilitating. John Stockton does not, because he was not a rebounder so he's automatically disqualified. Also, Stocktons assist numbers in a pick and roll offense where he's on the ball every possession is different than playing in an equal opportunity offense like the Triangle which by design deflates individual assists. There's no way Stockton averages 15 assists in the triangle, or probably even 10. You have so much to say and so much of it being flat wrong.



Carry on.


Pippen was a low-assist player compared to any 20/10 guy like KJ, Hardaway, or Payton, and obviously Stockton or all of Lebron's sidekicks (Wade, Westbrook, Kyrie, Rondo) and Pippen averaged less apg than Jordan too.

So the triangle had nothing to do with it - Pippen provided less scoring and assist help than..... E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E... Everyone averaged more ppg and apg than Pippen... :confusedshrug:

[BarberSchool]

“Scoring Skillet” sounds like something on the menu at a sports-themed 24 hour truck stop diner:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0a/6f/af/0a6fafee36f97880d48b1c3a09a0f04f--breakfast-skillet-hash-browns.jpg

[3ba11]

.
New Thread Title:


How many winning sidekicks weren't elite go-to scorers


everyone needs juggernaut scoring help, except in rare cases, so scoring help is everything, aka scoring is everything (scoring help) - that's the star help - star help equals scoring help

[BarberSchool]

Contemporary “besides scoring skill set” guys:

Jimmy Butler
Klay Thompson
Ben Simmons
Trevor Ariza
Draymond Green
Rudy Goebbert
Alex Caruso
Lonzo ball
Kawhi Leonard
Jrue the Damaja
Bam Adebayo

All these dudes, are, for their position, great defenders, good rebounders, and good passers

[3ba11]

Jerry West said Jordan was the best without scoring

And he's the goat talent evaluator

Let me know if anyone needs the link

Bob Knight and Bill Russell said something along those lines too.. Lots of guys actually

But it's intuitive - goat defense, goat leadership, goat intangibles, and he was a 30/10/10 point guard in his first try at the position in 89' (goat talent)..

Obviously, it's hard for Pippen to be on this list because he wasn't the best defender or passer on his own team

[Phoenix]

Pippen was a low-assist player compared to any 20/10 guy like KJ, Hardaway, or Payton, and obviously Stockton or all of Lebron's sidekicks (Wade, Westbrook, Kyrie, Rondo) and Pippen averaged less apg than Jordan too.

So the triangle had nothing to do with it - Pippen provided less scoring and assist help than..... E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E... Everyone averaged more ppg and apg than Pippen... :confusedshrug:

Every single one of those guys played in offenses where they controlled the ball and amassed high assist numbers, so thanks for illustrating my point further. Once again, the Triangle offense isn't designed for one player to amass high assist numbers over the course of a season, Pippen or otherwise. During their title years, Pippen's high assist season was 7 in 92, MJ's was 6.3. In the 2nd threepeat, MJ's assists fell to 4, Pippen's was in the 6 range. The entire purpose of the Triangle was to make everyone on the floor a threat on offense even if MJ was the bail-out when all said and done.

So, equating Stockton's assists in Utah running a pick and roll offense with Stockton being in the triangle is an asinine comparison. His role, and subsequent numbers, in the Bulls system would have been very different. No-one is going to average 10 assists in the triangle, it simply isn't designed with a traditional PG being the sole facilitator. Kobe was playing the offense initiator on the 2000-2003 Lakers and never dropped more than 5.9apg(2003), and averaged 4.9,5.0 and 5.5 assists for the threepeat seasons. Those numbers are lower than what Scottie, the 'low assist' guy according to you, was dropping.

[SouBeachTalents]

Every single one of those guys played in offenses where they controlled the ball and amassed high assist numbers, so thanks for illustrating my point further. Once again, the Triangle offense isn't designed for one player to amass high assist numbers over the course of a season, Pippen or otherwise. During their title years, Pippen's high assist season was 7 in 92, MJ's was 6.3. In the 2nd threepeat, MJ's assists fell to 4, Pippen's was in the 6 range. The entire purpose of the Triangle was to make everyone on the floor a threat on offense even if MJ was the bail-out when all said and done.

So, equating Stockton's assists in Utah running a pick and roll offense with Stockton being in the triangle is an asinine comparison. His role, and subsequent numbers, in the Bulls system would have been very different.
https://c.tenor.com/Y0gl6YxNauIAAAAC/boom-denzel.gif

Killing him with actual basketball analysis, not just spouting off numbers with zero context.

[La Frescobaldi]

60s
Russell, Havlicek, Cunningham, West, Wilkens, Chamberlain
70s
Havlicek, Chamberlain, Walton, Frazier, DJ
80s
Coops, DJ, Moses, Dumars, Jordan, Rodman
90s
Pippen, Jordan, Horry (playoffs) Rodman, Payton
00s
Tim Duncan, D Fish, Kobe8, Artest
10s
Duncan, Leonard, Tony Allen, James

[Phoenix]

https://c.tenor.com/Y0gl6YxNauIAAAAC/boom-denzel.gif

Killing him with actual basketball analysis, not just spouting off numbers with zero context.

:cheers:

He claims to be this 90's Bulls expert, but thinks dropping John Stockton into the Triangle will yield the same assist numbers as in Utah. A fundamental misinterpretation of a)how Stockton achieved his numbers and b)how the triangle is designed to work.

[90sgoat]

Scoring skillet aside, who are the best of all time at the rest of basketball?

So defense, rebounding, facilitating offensive for others etc. Who is/was the best package of all facets of the game excl scoring.

I'll throw in a couple that come to mind for me over the last 30 years or so (in no order)

Pippen
Garnett
Kidd
Lebron

Who else?

Great idea OP!

I'll probably go with Jason Kidd of those I've seen.

I've never seen anyone impact the game as much without scoring as Kidd.

It's like having a playing coach on the floor.

I would say Tim Duncan as well. That last run at 38 years old and playing at DPOY level before injuries was something else. Just terrific leadership.

Pip and Garnett deserve to be in the conversation for sure.

[Baller789]

I can't believe you guys forgot about Jokic. :oldlol:

For non-stars I nominate Boris Diaw.

[1987_Lakers]

I can't believe you guys forgot about Jokic. :oldlol:

For non-stars I nominate Boris Diaw.

Jokic is a big scoring threat and his defense is below average compared to other great centers.

He's a terrific passer, but without scoring, a guy like peak Walton impacts a game more with his defense.

[1987_Lakers]

Every single one of those guys played in offenses where they controlled the ball and amassed high assist numbers, so thanks for illustrating my point further. Once again, the Triangle offense isn't designed for one player to amass high assist numbers over the course of a season, Pippen or otherwise. During their title years, Pippen's high assist season was 7 in 92, MJ's was 6.3. In the 2nd threepeat, MJ's assists fell to 4, Pippen's was in the 6 range. The entire purpose of the Triangle was to make everyone on the floor a threat on offense even if MJ was the bail-out when all said and done.

So, equating Stockton's assists in Utah running a pick and roll offense with Stockton being in the triangle is an asinine comparison. His role, and subsequent numbers, in the Bulls system would have been very different. No-one is going to average 10 assists in the triangle, it simply isn't designed with a traditional PG being the sole facilitator. Kobe was playing the offense initiator on the 2000-2003 Lakers and never dropped more than 5.9apg(2003), and averaged 4.9,5.0 and 5.5 assists for the threepeat seasons. Those numbers are lower than what Scottie, the 'low assist' guy according to you, was dropping.

Jesus, absolutely destroyed 3ball.

Just last night he was saying the Bulls double teamed Stockton all series long in the Finals and that was the reason Pippen outscored him. :oldlol:

At this point, everything that comes out of his mouth is pretty much a lie.

[3ba11]

Every single one of those guys played in offenses where they controlled the ball and amassed high assist numbers, so thanks for illustrating my point further. Once again, the Triangle offense isn't designed for one player to amass high assist numbers over the course of a season, Pippen or otherwise. During their title years, Pippen's high assist season was 7 in 92, MJ's was 6.3. In the 2nd threepeat, MJ's assists fell to 4, Pippen's was in the 6 range. The entire purpose of the Triangle was to make everyone on the floor a threat on offense even if MJ was the bail-out when all said and done.

So, equating Stockton's assists in Utah running a pick and roll offense with Stockton being in the triangle is an asinine comparison. His role, and subsequent numbers, in the Bulls system would have been very different. No-one is going to average 10 assists in the triangle, it simply isn't designed with a traditional PG being the sole facilitator. Kobe was playing the offense initiator on the 2000-2003 Lakers and never dropped more than 5.9apg(2003), and averaged 4.9,5.0 and 5.5 assists for the threepeat seasons. Those numbers are lower than what Scottie, the 'low assist' guy according to you, was dropping.


Stop lying about Pippen, who averaged less points and assists than.... EVERYONE....

MJ, Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook, Payton, Drexler, Porter, T Hardaway, KJ, Penny, Hill - so that's all of Lebron's sidekicks and many 90's sidekick.... :confusedshrug:

Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career, including 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen.

Jordan averaged more assists despite less available shots to assist on - i.e. Jordan can't assist on his own shots and his volume was higher, which is why Jordan's assist percentage was always higher than Pippen's - Jordan assisted 33% more often in the playoffs, while doubling Pippen's scoring average, aka goat load.

But most importantly, Pippen was capable of 4-7 apg, so if elite playmaking was needed, MJ was the only option - only MJ could average 10+ apg and provide elite playmaking... He was a 30/10/10 point guard the first time he ever played the position at 26 years old, aka goat talent...

[La Frescobaldi]

Stop lying about Pippen, who averaged less points and assists than.... EVERYONE....

MJ, Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook, Payton, Drexler, Porter, T Hardaway, KJ, Penny, Hill - so that's all of Lebron's sidekicks and many 90's sidekick.... :confusedshrug:

Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career, including 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen.

Jordan averaged more assists despite less available shots to assist on - i.e. Jordan can't assist on his own shots and his volume was higher, which is why Jordan's assist percentage was always higher than Pippen's - Jordan assisted 33% more often in the playoffs, while doubling Pippen's scoring average, aka goat load.

But most importantly, Pippen was capable of 4-7 apg, so if elite playmaking was needed, MJ was the only option - only MJ could average 10+ apg and provide elite playmaking... He was a 30/10/10 point guard the first time he ever played the position at 26 years old, aka goat talent...


That explains why Scottie is on this list.

https://stathead.com/tiny/JMLIC?

[La Frescobaldi]

:cheers:

He claims to be this 90's Bulls expert, but thinks dropping John Stockton into the Triangle will yield the same assist numbers as in Utah. A fundamental misinterpretation of a)how Stockton achieved his numbers and b)how the triangle is designed to work.

He’s a flaming idiot over in the chair in the corner with the dunce cap on while the rest of the class throws spitballs at him

[3ba11]

He’s a flaming idiot over in the chair in the corner with the dunce cap on while the rest of the class throws spitballs at him


The point is that Pippen averaged less ppg and apg than most 90's sidekicks or Lebron's sidekicks

Everyone else needed elite scoring and/or assist help except the goat

[La Frescobaldi]

The point is that Pippen averaged less ppg and apg than most 90's sidekicks or Lebron's sidekicks

Everyone else needed juggernaut scoring and/or assist help except the goat

The point is only six players in all of history got 3000 pts, 1000 reb, 1000 assists in playoffs.
LeBron
Kobe
Scottie
Jordan
Larry Legend
Magic

and Scottie Pippen is one of them.

Bashing greatness like you do makes you the definition of an ankle biter.

[3ba11]

The point is only six players in all of history got 3000 pts, 1000 reb, 1000 assists in playoffs.
LeBron
Kobe
Scottie
Jordan
Larry Legend
Magic

and Scottie Pippen is one of them.

Bashing greatness like you do makes you the definition of an ankle biter.


Pippen presence on the list proves your cherry-picked stat means nothing, just like Malone's presence at the top of the career scoring total compromises that metric

[La Frescobaldi]

Pippen presence on the list proves your cherry-picked stat means nothing, just like Malone's presence at the top of the career scoring total compromises that metric

Question: when you draw blood does Scottie kick you so hard your hair flies off

[3ba11]

Question: when you draw blood does Scottie kick you so hard your hair flies off


Scoring is everything because everyone needed elite go-to scorers as sidekick, except MJ..

The fact that Pippen also averaged less apg than everyone further demonstrates his lower tier

Jordan won with a sidekick that averaged less ppg and apg than.... Everyone

[La Frescobaldi]

I just gave you the dang stat, mosquito.

[3ba11]

I just gave you the dang stat, mosquito.


3000 points?

you had to go all the way down to 3000 points to include Pippen

That makes my point.. 3000 career points is garbage.. Pippen confirmed sucked.. thanks for that and good job (good effort)

Pippen averaged 17/5 in the playoffs with below league-average true shooting every year, aka trash..

Jordan won 6 chips with the only guy that never reached Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size - Pippen is 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals.

[La Frescobaldi]

3000 points?

you had to go all the way down to 3000 points to include Pippen

That makes my point.. 3000 career points is garbage.. Pippen confirmed sucked.. thanks for that and good job (good effort)

Pippen averaged 17/5 in the playoffs with below league-average true shooting every year, aka trash..

Jordan won 6 chips with the only guy that never reached Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size - Pippen is 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals.

The point is only six players in all of history got 3000 pts, 1000 reb, 1000 assists in playoffs.
LeBron
Kobe
Scottie
Jordan
Larry Legend
Magic

and Scottie Pippen is one of them.

[1987_Lakers]

3000 points?

you had to go all the way down to 3000 points to include Pippen

That makes my point.. 3000 career points is garbage.. Pippen confirmed sucked.. thanks for that and good job (good effort)

Pippen averaged 17/5 in the playoffs with below league-average true shooting every year, aka trash..

Jordan won 6 chips with the only guy that never reached Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size - Pippen is 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals.

Stockton has 2400 playoff points and you were just sucking his cockk not too long ago.

[3ba11]

Stockton has 2400 playoff points and you were just sucking his cockk not too long ago.


Stockton is a similar scorer to Pippen, but he's also the goat playmaker (top 3 all-time floor general)

If Pippen's 5 apg helped Jordan, what would Stockton's 15 apg do?... It got Karl nearly 40k points

[La Frescobaldi]

Stockton has 2400 playoff points and you were just sucking his cockk not too long ago.

Yeah but Stockton is only 400 rebounds shy of getting on that supremely elite list.

Therefore, according to mosquitoball, pippen was terrible.

[La Frescobaldi]

Jordan will never win a ring without a triangle offense. Never. He was far too selfish to ever get it done without a coach forcing him to play in a system.

Stockton can run a triangle but he’s not getting 15 assists doing it.

[3ba11]

Yeah but Stockton is only 400 rebounds shy of getting on that supremely elite list.

Therefore, according to mosquitoball, pippen was terrible.


Everyone's best was better than Pippen's

Pippen wasn't a threat to dominate, while every other sidekick was.. So MJ is the only guy that faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load)

[La Frescobaldi]

Everyone's best was better than Pippen's

Pippen wasn't a threat to dominate, while every other sidekick was.. So MJ is the only guy that faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load)

Could make a valid case for the other five guys on the list being better than Pippen but not many others, mosquitoball.
Pippen ran the offense that made the bad boy Pistons quit on their own court = elite

[1987_Lakers]

Stockton is a similar scorer to Pippen, but he's also the goat playmaker (top 3 all-time floor general)

If Pippen's 5 apg helped Jordan, what would Stockton's 15 apg do?... It got Karl nearly 40k points

I've heard you say 100x that point guards who produce tons of assists are overrated cause they dominate the ball or some silly shit like that, now you want to reward Stockton for it. LOL

[AussieSteve]

.
New Thread Title:


How many winning sidekicks weren't elite go-to scorers


everyone needs juggernaut scoring help, except in rare cases, so scoring help is everything, aka scoring is everything (scoring help) - that's the star help - star help equals scoring help

What? That's not what this thread is about. It's about players who may or may not have been great scorers, but were definitely great at every other aspect of the game.

Why are you so threatened that Pippen is on the short list of ATGs in this department?

As is Jordan btw, although not as high as Pip, because Pip was better on the boards, a better facilitator and more versatile in defense.

[3ba11]

I've heard you say 100x that point guards who produce tons of assists are overrated cause they dominate the ball or some silly shit like that, now you want to reward Stockton for it. LOL


Stockton was great outside of the triangle and outside the baby crib of dynasty chemistry.

Pippen was not - he is as a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score without the triangle and dynasty propping him up

Btw, Malone took MJ to 6 games with just Stockton, so he would easily beat Curry with Kyrie/Love, especially with Kyrie > Curry in the series.. The only reason that series went 7 is because Bron wet the bed thru 4 (24 and 6 TO), otherwise any series where the sidekick takes over should be a cakewalk victory

[LeCola]

???

Bill Russell has mediocre passing.

I would go with Pippen or LeBron.

Lebron is bad on

Defence
Rebounds
Offball offence

So, I would never add him on a list for those arguments.

[Phoenix]

Stop lying about Pippen, who averaged less points and assists than.... EVERYONE....

MJ, Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook, Payton, Drexler, Porter, T Hardaway, KJ, Penny, Hill - so that's all of Lebron's sidekicks and many 90's sidekick.... :confusedshrug:

Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career, including 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen.

Jordan averaged more assists despite less available shots to assist on - i.e. Jordan can't assist on his own shots and his volume was higher, which is why Jordan's assist percentage was always higher than Pippen's - Jordan assisted 33% more often in the playoffs, while doubling Pippen's scoring average, aka goat load.

But most importantly, Pippen was capable of 4-7 apg, so if elite playmaking was needed, MJ was the only option - only MJ could average 10+ apg and provide elite playmaking... He was a 30/10/10 point guard the first time he ever played the position at 26 years old, aka goat talent...

This clown accused ME of lying. :roll: You just throw out these vacuous 'Pippen scored less than everyone' comments when it's been demonstrated time and time again that Pippen averaged more than the opposite sidekick plenty of times. Hell in the 91 finals he outscored MJ, the MVP runner-up. On a decent forum you'd have been perma-banned for the blatant falsehoods you perpetuate on this shithole.

And then you throw in guys like Wade, Westbrook, Kyrie who played in completely different eras, different roles and trying to draw apples to apples comparisons about numbers. For the record, Kyrie has never averaged higher than 6.9apg, Pippen's career high is 7apg in 92. A minor difference and again, different era/roles but the point being, Kyrie's career high is lower than Scotties and he himself is mostly a 5/6apg guy. A 5.7 career apg( Kyrie) is extremely average for a PG. For the record, Scottie's career assist mark is 5.5apg when you remove his rookie season as a nobody and final season at 38 light years past his prime. That number is higher than Wade's and .2 off Kyrie who is still playing and whose career numbers( assists in this case) will probably go down if he plays another 6-7 years. You're not as clever as you think. Yes, Pippen has a lower career apg because like many players, the beginning and end of his career had his lowest numbers, the same as MJ having his lowest PPG at the beginning and especially end of his career which dropped him from being 32ppg when he retired in 98, down to 30.1 when he finally left in 2003 and in danger of falling behind Wilt for #2.

Pippen in full seasons playing alongside MJ during the championship years, never averaged less than 5.7apg for a season; MJ during the 2nd 3peat averaged 4.3, 4.3 and 3.5 assists per game. So if Scottie was a 'low producing assist guy' averaging 5.7assists in his lowest championship year, what do you call MJ averaging 3.5 assists in his while having much higher usage? Let's look at the 91-93 and 96-98 title runs when Pip was in his prime and compare season/playoff assist numbers:

91-93 season: MJ 5.7, Pip 6.5
Usage % season: MJ 33.1, Pip 23.5
91-93 playoffs: MJ 6.6, 6.1
Usage % playoffs: MJ 36.1, Pip 24.9

For the 91-93 seasons Scottie averaged an extra assist with 10 percentage points less usage. For the 91-93 playoffs it took MJ 11 percentage points more usage to average .5 assists, and that's taking into account his 91 playoffs when he averaged 11apg in the finals and 8.4 in the playoffs. Scottie out-assisted MJ in the 92 and 93 playoff runs 6.2 to 5.9, again while having much less usage. i haven't bothered to look up 88-90 assists as they no doubt favor MJ, but big whoop out-assisting an up and coming Pip before he hit his prime.

96-98 season: MJ 4.0, Pip 5.8
Usage% season: 33.4, 24.5
96-98 playoffs: MJ 4.1 Pip 5.0
Usage% playoffs MJ 35.1 23.4

For the 96 to 98 seasons Scottie averaged approx. 2 more assists per game. For the 96-98 playoffs he averaged an extra assist. In both cases the usage rates are pretty much identical to the first 3peat, and Scottie quite clearly assisted way more than MJ in both cases. Your counter-argument will be but but but MJ had the scoring burden so Scottie should have averaged way more assists. Which again, circles back to my point that no one individual in the triangle is going to average gaudy assist numbers but Scottie's career high in the triangle of 7 assists is higher than MJ's. In fact we can go pre-triangle to 89 when the Bulls employed the 'get the fukk outta MJ's way' offense and he averaged 8apg making a conscious effort to drop triple doubles after switching to PG during the year.

MJ was a much better scorer( obviously), so that should reflect in the scoring numbers. But it should also reflect in the assist numbers which you're trying to be cute by hiding behind assist % while ignoring the vast difference in usage %, but that doesn't bear out in any parallel advantage in assists volume, especially in the 2nd 3peat where it's quite the opposite.

[La Frescobaldi]

This clown accused ME of lying. :roll: You just throw out these vacuous 'Pippen scored less than everyone' comments when it's been demonstrated time and time again that Pippen averaged more than the opposite sidekick plenty of times. Hell in the 91 finals he outscored MJ, the MVP runner-up. On a decent forum you'd have been perma-banned for the blatant falsehoods you perpetuate on this shithole.

And then you throw in guys like Wade, Westbrook, Kyrie who played in completely different eras, different roles and trying to draw apples to apples comparisons about numbers. For the record, Kyrie has never averaged higher than 6.9apg, Pippen's career high is 7apg in 92. A minor difference and again, different era/roles but the point being, Kyrie's career high is lower than Scotties and he himself is mostly a 5/6apg guy. A 5.7 career apg( Kyrie) is extremely average for a PG. For the record, Scottie's career assist mark is 5.5apg when you remove his rookie season as a nobody and final season at 38 light years past his prime. That number is higher than Wade's and .2 off Kyrie who is still playing and whose career numbers( assists in this case) will probably go down if he plays another 6-7 years. You're not as clever as you think. Yes, Pippen has a lower career apg because like many players, the beginning and end of his career had his lowest numbers, the same as MJ having his lowest PPG at the beginning and especially end of his career which dropped him from being 32ppg when he retired in 98, down to 30.1 when he finally left in 2003 and in danger of falling behind Wilt for #2.

Pippen in full seasons playing alongside MJ during the championship years, never averaged less than 5.7apg for a season; MJ during the 2nd 3peat averaged 4.3, 4.3 and 3.5 assists per game. So if Scottie was a 'low producing assist guy' averaging 5.7assists in his lowest championship year, what do you call MJ averaging 3.5 assists in his while having much higher usage? Let's look at the 91-93 and 96-98 title runs when Pip was in his prime and compare season/playoff assist numbers:

91-93 season: MJ 5.7, Pip 6.5
Usage % season: MJ 33.1, Pip 23.5
91-93 playoffs: MJ 6.6, 6.1
Usage % playoffs: MJ 36.1, Pip 24.9

For the 91-93 seasons Scottie averaged an extra assist with 10 percentage points less usage. For the 91-93 playoffs it took MJ 11 percentage points more usage to average .5 assists, and that's taking into account his 91 playoffs when he averaged 11apg in the finals and 8.4 in the playoffs. Scottie out-assisted MJ in the 92 and 93 playoff runs 6.2 to 5.9, again while having much less usage. i haven't bothered to look up 88-90 assists as they no doubt favor MJ, but big whoop out-assisting an up and coming Pip before he hit his prime.

96-98 season: MJ 4.0, Pip 5.8
Usage% season: 33.4, 24.5
96-98 playoffs: MJ 4.1 Pip 5.0
Usage% playoffs MJ 35.1 23.4

For the 96 to 98 seasons Scottie averaged approx. 2 more assists per game. For the 96-98 playoffs he averaged an extra assist. In both cases the usage rates are pretty much identical to the first 3peat, and Scottie quite clearly assisted way more than MJ in both cases. Your counter-argument will be but but but MJ had the scoring burden so Scottie should have averaged way more assists. Which again, circles back to my point that no one individual in the triangle is going to average gaudy assist numbers but Scottie's career high in the triangle of 7 assists is higher than MJ's. In fact we can go pre-triangle to 89 when the Bulls employed the 'get the fukk outta MJ's way' offense and he averaged 8apg making a conscious effort to drop triple doubles after switching to PG during the year.

MJ was a much better scorer( obviously), so that should reflect in the scoring numbers. But it should also reflect in the assist numbers which you're trying to be cute by hiding behind assist % while ignoring the vast difference in usage %, but that doesn't bear out in any parallel advantage in assists volume, especially in the 2nd 3peat where it's quite the opposite.

Swatting a mosquito is always worthwhile nobody wants a ankle biter around